| *** dunny has joined #zope | 00:01 | |
| *** allisterb_ has joined #zope | 00:01 | |
| *** allisterb has quit IRC | 00:04 | |
| *** fox-guy has joined #zope | 00:06 | |
| *** redir has joined #zope | 00:09 | |
| *** davi-lima has quit IRC | 00:10 | |
| *** webmaven has quit IRC | 00:14 | |
| *** thetet has quit IRC | 00:18 | |
| *** ccomb has quit IRC | 00:24 | |
| *** kosh has quit IRC | 00:26 | |
| *** kosh has joined #zope | 00:28 | |
| *** webmaven has joined #zope | 00:28 | |
| *** Theuni1 has quit IRC | 00:28 | |
| *** cbcunc has quit IRC | 00:35 | |
| *** tarek has quit IRC | 00:43 | |
| *** evilbungle_ has joined #zope | 00:46 | |
| *** evilbungle has quit IRC | 00:49 | |
| *** x-ip has joined #zope | 00:53 | |
| *** x-ip has quit IRC | 00:54 | |
| *** pepeu has joined #zope | 00:54 | |
| *** tarek has joined #zope | 01:00 | |
| *** evilbungle_ has quit IRC | 01:03 | |
| *** TomBlockley has quit IRC | 01:05 | |
| *** benji has quit IRC | 01:17 | |
| *** benji has joined #zope | 01:19 | |
| *** hever has joined #zope | 01:25 | |
| *** tarek has quit IRC | 01:26 | |
| *** webmaven has quit IRC | 01:31 | |
| *** TresEquis has quit IRC | 01:35 | |
| *** Hypergraphe has quit IRC | 01:40 | |
| *** fredvd|away has quit IRC | 01:40 | |
| *** pthulin has joined #zope | 01:42 | |
| *** regebro has quit IRC | 01:44 | |
| *** mr_jolly has quit IRC | 01:51 | |
| *** smita has quit IRC | 02:14 | |
| *** pepeu has quit IRC | 02:28 | |
| *** julesa has joined #zope | 02:29 | |
| *** pthulin has quit IRC | 02:34 | |
| *** dayne has quit IRC | 02:34 | |
| *** redir has quit IRC | 02:37 | |
| *** pthulin has joined #zope | 02:41 | |
| *** runyaga has joined #zope | 02:51 | |
| *** tiwula has quit IRC | 03:09 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has joined #zope | 03:11 | |
| *** pthulin has quit IRC | 03:11 | |
| *** giampaolo has quit IRC | 03:22 | |
| *** julesa has quit IRC | 03:22 | |
| *** TKtiddle has quit IRC | 03:33 | |
| *** baijum has joined #zope | 03:42 | |
| *** baijum has quit IRC | 03:47 | |
| *** baijum has joined #zope | 03:48 | |
| *** alvaro_ has quit IRC | 04:13 | |
| *** lisppaste6 has quit IRC | 04:13 | |
| *** lisppaste6 has joined #zope | 04:13 | |
| *** r0ver has joined #zope | 04:42 | |
| *** tiwula has joined #zope | 05:14 | |
| *** tiwula has quit IRC | 05:34 | |
| *** hever has quit IRC | 05:38 | |
| *** julesa has joined #zope | 05:44 | |
| *** olaf has quit IRC | 05:53 | |
| *** olaf has joined #zope | 05:58 | |
| *** olaf has joined #zope | 05:58 | |
| *** baijum has quit IRC | 06:12 | |
| *** fox-guy has quit IRC | 06:12 | |
| *** aaronv has quit IRC | 06:13 | |
| *** baijum has joined #zope | 06:13 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has quit IRC | 06:25 | |
| *** huajie has joined #zope | 06:36 | |
| *** skt_ has joined #zope | 06:40 | |
| *** baijum has quit IRC | 06:57 | |
| *** julesa has quit IRC | 06:57 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has joined #zope | 07:00 | |
| *** purserj has quit IRC | 07:15 | |
| *** purserj has joined #zope | 07:16 | |
| *** digitalmortician has quit IRC | 07:33 | |
| *** baijum has joined #zope | 07:39 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has quit IRC | 07:46 | |
| *** Theuni1 has joined #zope | 08:00 | |
| *** r0ver has left #zope | 08:01 | |
| *** opsec has quit IRC | 08:01 | |
| *** timte has joined #zope | 08:07 | |
| *** mr_jolly has joined #zope | 08:11 | |
| *** opsec has joined #zope | 08:14 | |
| *** digitalmortician has joined #zope | 08:18 | |
| *** Theuni1 has quit IRC | 08:22 | |
| *** runyaga has quit IRC | 08:23 | |
| *** Theuni1 has joined #zope | 08:25 | |
| *** Theuni1 has quit IRC | 08:28 | |
| *** Theuni1 has joined #zope | 08:29 | |
| *** JaRoel|4D has quit IRC | 08:49 | |
| *** Theuni2 has joined #zope | 08:53 | |
| *** Theuni1 has quit IRC | 08:56 | |
| *** wosc has joined #zope | 09:02 | |
| *** mr_jolly has left #zope | 09:11 | |
| *** Theuni1 has joined #zope | 09:22 | |
| *** Theuni2 has quit IRC | 09:22 | |
| *** MrTango has joined #zope | 09:31 | |
| *** fruitwerks has quit IRC | 09:38 | |
| *** fruitwerks has joined #zope | 09:41 | |
| *** thetet has joined #zope | 09:42 | |
| *** Kabz|4D has joined #zope | 09:57 | |
| *** JaRoel|4D has joined #zope | 09:58 | |
| *** digitalmortician has quit IRC | 09:59 | |
| *** hever has joined #zope | 10:02 | |
| *** digitalmortician has joined #zope | 10:05 | |
| *** phimic has joined #zope | 10:06 | |
| *** smita has joined #zope | 10:10 | |
| *** agroszer has joined #zope | 10:10 | |
| *** tarek has joined #zope | 10:12 | |
| *** sim_sim has joined #zope | 10:17 | |
| *** zagy has quit IRC | 10:23 | |
| *** zagy has joined #zope | 10:25 | |
| *** sunew has joined #zope | 10:29 | |
| *** planetzopebot has quit IRC | 10:33 | |
| *** fredvd has joined #zope | 10:33 | |
| *** planetzopebot has joined #zope | 10:34 | |
| *** touff has joined #zope | 10:34 | |
| *** Theuni2 has joined #zope | 10:37 | |
| *** Theuni1 has quit IRC | 10:37 | |
| *** calvinhp has quit IRC | 10:41 | |
| *** calvinhp has joined #zope | 10:41 | |
| *** goschtl has joined #zope | 10:42 | |
| *** ccomb has joined #zope | 10:44 | |
| *** Theuni2 has quit IRC | 10:51 | |
| *** Theuni1 has joined #zope | 10:52 | |
| *** eperez has joined #zope | 11:05 | |
| *** huajie has quit IRC | 11:06 | |
| *** maiky has joined #zope | 11:22 | |
| *** maiky has quit IRC | 11:24 | |
| *** huajie has joined #zope | 11:25 | |
| *** gypsymauro has joined #zope | 11:34 | |
| *** gypsymauro has left #zope | 11:34 | |
| *** menesis has joined #zope | 11:34 | |
| *** astoon has joined #zope | 11:34 | |
| *** ccomb has quit IRC | 11:46 | |
| *** ccomb has joined #zope | 11:46 | |
| *** ccomb has quit IRC | 11:46 | |
| *** ccomb has joined #zope | 11:47 | |
| *** opsec has quit IRC | 11:47 | |
| *** ccomb has quit IRC | 11:48 | |
| *** ccomb has joined #zope | 11:48 | |
| *** agroszer has quit IRC | 11:49 | |
| *** opsec has joined #zope | 11:53 | |
| *** TomBlockley has joined #zope | 11:53 | |
| *** opsec has quit IRC | 11:54 | |
| *** ccomb has quit IRC | 11:55 | |
| *** Theuni1 has quit IRC | 11:57 | |
| *** ccomb has joined #zope | 11:57 | |
| *** giampaolo has joined #zope | 11:58 | |
| *** Theuni1 has joined #zope | 11:59 | |
| *** j-w has joined #zope | 12:03 | |
| *** astoon has quit IRC | 12:03 | |
| *** huajie has quit IRC | 12:05 | |
| *** opsec has joined #zope | 12:14 | |
| *** regebro has joined #zope | 12:22 | |
| *** astoon has joined #zope | 12:22 | |
| *** goschtl has quit IRC | 12:34 | |
| *** goschtl has joined #zope | 12:36 | |
| *** evilbungle has joined #zope | 12:38 | |
| *** teix has joined #zope | 12:38 | |
| *** TomBlockley has quit IRC | 12:55 | |
| *** evilbungle has quit IRC | 12:55 | |
| *** TomBlockley has joined #zope | 13:06 | |
| *** evilbungle has joined #zope | 13:06 | |
| *** agroszer has joined #zope | 13:07 | |
| *** sunew has quit IRC | 13:07 | |
| *** sunew has joined #zope | 13:22 | |
| *** Charlie_X has joined #zope | 13:24 | |
| *** emrojo has joined #zope | 13:31 | |
| *** touff has quit IRC | 13:37 | |
| *** sim_ has joined #zope | 13:53 | |
| *** sim_sim has quit IRC | 13:56 | |
| *** agroszer has quit IRC | 13:58 | |
| *** ccomb1 has joined #zope | 13:59 | |
| *** ccomb has quit IRC | 13:59 | |
| *** astoon has quit IRC | 14:01 | |
| *** agroszer has joined #zope | 14:01 | |
| Charlie_X | Can't make today's meeting. Off to wear a big smile at World Plone day in Bonn. | 14:04 |
|---|---|---|
| *** Charlie_X has quit IRC | 14:04 | |
| *** benji has quit IRC | 14:06 | |
| *** evilbungle has quit IRC | 14:19 | |
| *** evilbungle has joined #zope | 14:19 | |
| *** aaronv has joined #zope | 14:21 | |
| *** dayne has joined #zope | 14:26 | |
| *** dayne has quit IRC | 14:59 | |
| *** sim_ has quit IRC | 15:01 | |
| *** sim_sim has joined #zope | 15:02 | |
| *** dunny has quit IRC | 15:08 | |
| *** dunny has joined #zope | 15:10 | |
| *** dunny has quit IRC | 15:10 | |
| *** benji has joined #zope | 15:12 | |
| *** bobo_b has joined #zope | 15:27 | |
| *** huajie has joined #zope | 15:30 | |
| *** skt_ has quit IRC | 15:33 | |
| *** simelbaz has joined #zope | 16:01 | |
| *** neo|4D has joined #zope | 16:08 | |
| *** huajie has quit IRC | 16:20 | |
| *** Charlie_X has joined #zope | 16:37 | |
| * Charlie_X is an idiot | 16:37 | |
| Charlie_X | Still, we had a nice drive and found out which bits of which motorways are being worked on. | 16:37 |
| *** huajie has joined #zope | 16:43 | |
| *** Charlie_X has left #zope | 16:43 | |
| *** touff has joined #zope | 16:43 | |
| *** Charlie_X has joined #zope | 16:45 | |
| *** fredvd has quit IRC | 16:50 | |
| *** baijum has quit IRC | 16:56 | |
| planetzopebot | Moonshining: Making WSGI for Fun and Profit (Palladion Software Blog) http://palladion.com/home/tseaver/obzervationz/2010/pse_wsgi_training-20100426 | 17:04 |
| *** fredvd has joined #zope | 17:05 | |
| *** JaRoel|4D has quit IRC | 17:11 | |
| *** neo|4D has quit IRC | 17:12 | |
| *** Kabz|4D has quit IRC | 17:16 | |
| *** digitalmortician has quit IRC | 17:17 | |
| *** astoon has joined #zope | 17:17 | |
| *** dayne has joined #zope | 17:19 | |
| *** Theuni1 has quit IRC | 17:20 | |
| *** r0ver has joined #zope | 17:20 | |
| *** digitalmortician has joined #zope | 17:23 | |
| *** River-Rat has quit IRC | 17:24 | |
| *** Theuni1 has joined #zope | 17:24 | |
| *** wosc has quit IRC | 17:28 | |
| *** wosc has joined #zope | 17:29 | |
| *** j-w has quit IRC | 17:32 | |
| *** digitalmortician has quit IRC | 17:35 | |
| *** r0ver has left #zope | 17:40 | |
| *** thetetet has joined #zope | 17:42 | |
| *** timte has quit IRC | 17:43 | |
| *** RiverRat has joined #zope | 17:45 | |
| *** thetet has quit IRC | 17:46 | |
| *** avn has quit IRC | 17:48 | |
| *** srichter has joined #zope | 17:50 | |
| *** baijum has joined #zope | 17:55 | |
| *** fredvd is now known as fredvd|shop | 17:59 | |
| *** cbcunc has joined #zope | 17:59 | |
| Theuni1 | tada | 18:00 |
| agroszer | meetingtime | 18:00 |
| *** huajie has quit IRC | 18:01 | |
| baijum | Hi all | 18:01 |
| Theuni1 | anything about the agenda? | 18:01 |
| Theuni1 | sounds like a no | 18:01 |
| Charlie_X | I think 2 before 1 makes more sense | 18:01 |
| Theuni1 | ok | 18:02 |
| ccomb1 | hi | 18:02 |
| Theuni1 | good point | 18:02 |
| Theuni1 | so, topic: review bug day outcome | 18:02 |
| Charlie_X | Do the breamers want to talk about their things first? It was their idea. | 18:03 |
| *** phimic has quit IRC | 18:03 | |
| *** J1m has joined #zope | 18:03 | |
| * Charlie_X shudders at the cheesy fish-slapping joke from PyCon | 18:03 | |
| *** daMaestro has joined #zope | 18:03 | |
| baijum | I couldn't participate due to some personal matters | 18:03 |
| planetzopebot | Drop-dead Dropbox Doings with Deliverance (BlueDynamics Alliance - Zope Related) http://bluedynamics.com/articles/johannes/drop-dead-dropbox-doings-with-deliverance | 18:04 |
| baijum | ccomb1: & astoon: any updates ? | 18:04 |
| planetzopebot | World Plone Day 3 Puts Plone on Global Display April 28th (Plone News) http://plone.org/news/wpd2010-pressrelease | 18:04 |
| ccomb1 | I've been working on zope.container and zope.app.container (namechooser) | 18:04 |
| *** ccomb1 is now known as ccomb | 18:04 | |
| goschtl | I have the feeling it would make more sense to do it not on a weekend... | 18:04 |
| agroszer | ccomb, did you do any backporting? | 18:05 |
| *** avn has joined #zope | 18:05 | |
| agroszer | goschtl, for the next one we could vote... | 18:05 |
| ccomb | yes on branches 3.5 and 3.6 | 18:05 |
| Charlie_X | I think no date would be perfect for everyone. The important thing was it happened. | 18:05 |
| goschtl | ok | 18:05 |
| ccomb | I could deserve some minor release, but I'm afraid with the windows binary eggs | 18:05 |
| Theuni1 | Charlie_X: yeah. so maybe moving it between weeks and weekends would be an idea. | 18:05 |
| Theuni1 | its easier for me to make it during a week. | 18:05 |
| * Charlie_X doesn't think voting is such a good idea. Try and gauge consensus and make a reasonable suggestion. | 18:05 | |
| agroszer | ccomb, no problem we can ask someone for binaries | 18:06 |
| agroszer | Charlie_X, ok, you throw the dice | 18:06 |
| astoon | baijum: I start work on documentation for BB right now. And going to see bugs on LP also, for ZTK | 18:06 |
| ccomb | I've also helped with z3c.formdemo for KGS 3.4.1. It was not working after the changes in z3c.layer | 18:06 |
| ccomb | it can also be released | 18:07 |
| Charlie_X | Do we think once a month is about right? | 18:07 |
| Theuni1 | ok, we're losing focus a bit | 18:07 |
| baijum | astoon: I remeber you have fixed a "duplicate logging handler issue" | 18:07 |
| Theuni1 | I think we don't have time to detail into every issue that was fixed. | 18:07 |
| astoon | yes, it is fixed | 18:08 |
| Theuni1 | Maybe all the people who were at the bug day can give a quick say of what they experienced and maybe whether something particularly good or bad happened? | 18:08 |
| Charlie_X | I enjoyed Bug day even though I essentially just committed patches that I did a long time ago. | 18:08 |
| Charlie_X | It was good to be able to ask the simplest questions knowing that other people were also working on bugs. | 18:08 |
| Charlie_X | We've got a lot of bugs still to work out and coding style and tests must improve. | 18:08 |
| Theuni1 | I'll start myself: I was there during 9am CEST and 3pm CEST and I got all the bugs attached to Zope 3 that had a patch attached out of the way. I also started going to one of the most "hot" bugs: referer handling of testbrowser, but that isn't finished yet. I'd like to see bug days happen monthly but I'll have a hard time joining them on weekends. | 18:09 |
| Theuni1 | Charlie_X: yeah. I think if we do this regularly, we'll get quite far regarding getting bugs out of the way and maybe we get a better grip on how to improve the documentation: Tres actually already started preparing for that. | 18:09 |
| Theuni1 | agroszer: you were there too, do you want to give a quick summary? | 18:10 |
| * Charlie_X suggests 19th May for the next fest | 18:10 | |
| agroszer | I worked on the KGS3.4.1, made some progress but it still needs some work to be ready. I guess I'll finish it in small steps. | 18:10 |
| astoon | I think Bug Day is good mention to us that need to work on zope bugs regularly. | 18:10 |
| Charlie_X | "little and often" | 18:10 |
| Theuni1 | Charlie_X: right. | 18:10 |
| Theuni1 | may 19 sounds lovely ;) | 18:11 |
| agroszer | Definitely bug days at least monthly, I can manage weekday or weekend. | 18:11 |
| baijum | +1 for monthly (week days are fine) | 18:11 |
| Charlie_X | 2010-05-19 it is then | 18:11 |
| Theuni1 | sounds like it :) | 18:11 |
| ccomb | +1 but I prefer the WE | 18:11 |
| * agroszer opening the calendar | 18:11 | |
| baijum | Do we need a another wiki ? | 18:11 |
| ccomb | unless it's on wednesday | 18:11 |
| Theuni1 | baijum: if you could copy the last one, that would be good | 18:12 |
| Charlie_X | ccomb: you get some weekend in June for the one after. | 18:12 |
| *** sunew has quit IRC | 18:12 | |
| agroszer | 19 is a wed | 18:12 |
| Theuni1 | ccomb: 19th seems to be a wednesday | 18:12 |
| ccomb | great | 18:12 |
| Charlie_X | At least in Germany it is. Not sure about France. Time seems different, there! ;-) | 18:12 |
| baijum | I am going to create http://wiki.zope.org/zope (A new ZWiki) with the help of sm, is that Ok ? | 18:12 |
| Charlie_X | Go for it baijum | 18:13 |
| Charlie_X | I really appreciated Tres' exhortations in the week before. | 18:13 |
| *** baijum1 has joined #zope | 18:14 | |
| Charlie_X | And I think there were a couple of things that came up that could be added to the docs. One important thing - we did have people taking part who don't have commit rights for svn.zope.org. So +10 for Tres for his anticipation of this. | 18:14 |
| * baijum1 got disconnected | 18:14 | |
| baijum1 | I am going to create http://wiki.zope.org/zope (A new ZWiki) with the help of sm, is that Ok ? | 18:14 |
| agroszer | ohh btw, Theuni1 what about the pinning/dumping versions with tags issue? | 18:15 |
| Theuni1 | baijum1: why not stay with the bluebream wiki for now? just reating a new wiki for that bug day seems overkill | 18:15 |
| Charlie_X | Go for it baijum | 18:15 |
| Theuni1 | agroszer: i didn't quite follow that, you might wanna put that on the list | 18:15 |
| agroszer | ok | 18:16 |
| baijum1 | A general wiki would be better, not just for bugdays | 18:16 |
| baijum1 | a common wiki or Zope | 18:16 |
| baijum1 | *for | 18:16 |
| Theuni1 | baijum1: "general zope" isn't defined very well currently | 18:16 |
| Theuni1 | so i'm afraid of a very blurry place where nobody knows what should go there | 18:17 |
| baijum1 | Theuni1: Zope project ? | 18:17 |
| Charlie_X | Can we get PEP8 validation in the tests or post-commit? | 18:17 |
| Theuni1 | Charlie_X: likely not | 18:17 |
| *** baijum has quit IRC | 18:17 | |
| *** bobo_b has quit IRC | 18:17 | |
| wosc | Charlie_X: going all "thou shall not pass" sounds a little like overkill ;) | 18:18 |
| Theuni1 | Charlie_X: i deal with those issues directly in my editor when saving | 18:18 |
| Charlie_X | Pity. Now that I've got PyLint working again I'm trying to work it out how to use it regularly. And to tweak it to stop it complaining all the time about method and variable names. | 18:18 |
| Theuni1 | anybody needs to say more things abuot the bug day? | 18:18 |
| * Charlie_X needs to learn how to use his editors. | 18:19 | |
| ccomb | are there any pending release to do after the bugday? | 18:19 |
| Charlie_X | It was a success | 18:19 |
| Theuni1 | +1 ;) | 18:19 |
| Theuni1 | ccomb: i think so | 18:19 |
| Theuni1 | I made quite a few bug fixes but didn't want to release right away | 18:19 |
| baijum1 | Ok, we will continue to use BB wiki for time being.. we can discuss it later, if we need to move | 18:19 |
| ccomb | ok it's not a good idea to release after each commit | 18:19 |
| Theuni1 | yup | 18:19 |
| Theuni1 | launchpad has a specific status for that | 18:20 |
| Theuni1 | "fix committed" | 18:20 |
| Theuni1 | we can check for those and then go and release them | 18:20 |
| agroszer | next topic? | 18:21 |
| agroszer | before time's up | 18:21 |
| Theuni1 | state of LP | 18:21 |
| Theuni1 | in preparation for the bug day I created the project group "zopeapp" | 18:21 |
| Charlie_X | More gardening required on the launchpad, methinks | 18:21 |
| Theuni1 | whenever I found a bug that needed moving, I created projects there | 18:21 |
| Theuni1 | Charlie_X: definitely | 18:21 |
| Theuni1 | zope 3 still has open bugs assigned to them, although they did go down quite a bit thanks to all the contributors (you know who you are) | 18:22 |
| Charlie_X | Gardening in the run up to a bug day is a good idea. | 18:22 |
| Theuni1 | one specific thing that I'm a bit uncomfortable with our "zope.org" project group | 18:22 |
| Charlie_X | Why TheJester | 18:23 |
| Theuni1 | it's a kind of grabbag for anyone who wants to be associated "with us" but doesn't have any meaning IMHO | 18:23 |
| Charlie_X | eek! | 18:23 |
| Charlie_X | doesn't zope.org relate to ZTK? | 18:23 |
| srichter | Theuni1: what would you liek the group to be? the web masters? | 18:23 |
| Theuni1 | srichter: not people group | 18:23 |
| Theuni1 | project group | 18:23 |
| Theuni1 | https://edge.launchpad.net/zope | 18:24 |
| Theuni1 | this doesn't have much value imho and is very misleading | 18:24 |
| Theuni1 | it's even featured on the launchpad homepage if you look closely | 18:24 |
| *** baijum has joined #zope | 18:25 | |
| agroszer | yup, last one | 18:26 |
| agroszer | it's the one-big-mess story | 18:26 |
| Theuni1 | so imho that group needs to go away. ideally we could put our project groups like zopetoolkit, grok and others there | 18:26 |
| srichter | Theuni1: ok, I see, mhh | 18:26 |
| Theuni1 | but launchpad doesn't allow hierarchies of project groups | 18:26 |
| srichter | Theuni1: why not leave it as a launching pad | 18:26 |
| Theuni1 | so my feeling is to remove that project group and ask launchpad to remove their thing to point to zopetoolkit | 18:26 |
| Theuni1 | srichter: because currently it's misleading | 18:27 |
| srichter | could we use some free text to describe our sub-groups | 18:27 |
| Theuni1 | then we need to figure out what that would be. we could to that of course. :) | 18:27 |
| Charlie_X | "Zope is the collection of things formerly known as Zope" | 18:27 |
| Theuni1 | lol | 18:27 |
| srichter | I just think the name ion LP is nice and it is well advertised | 18:27 |
| srichter | would be a shame to loose that marketing | 18:27 |
| Charlie_X | We need a shiny badge for the Toolkit that we can wear with pride. | 18:28 |
| Theuni1 | srichter: i have that feeling too, but currently the actual content hurts more than it helps | 18:28 |
| Theuni1 | so, it sounds like that various changes since last time WRT launchpad don't spur any controversy by itself, we do need to continue gardening. | 18:29 |
| *** baijum1 has quit IRC | 18:29 | |
| Charlie_X | We could have a discussion on the mailing list to identify the common things - the various projects have a lot in common. | 18:29 |
| baijum | I can see many projects listed here: https://edge.launchpad.net/zope it's not a relation ? | 18:30 |
| Theuni1 | Charlie_X: right. it's somewhat a risk to start bikeshedding about ;) | 18:30 |
| Theuni1 | baijum: they are *somewhat* related. but mainly it's just messy. | 18:30 |
| Theuni1 | the tools for project groups don't work that way in Launchpad | 18:30 |
| Theuni1 | time's over | 18:31 |
| Theuni1 | tres wasn't around to report on the windows progress he made, but there is some :) | 18:31 |
| Theuni1 | that's it for today | 18:31 |
| agroszer | yup, seems like msdn subsr. is in progress | 18:31 |
| agroszer | but I got no response yet after the registration | 18:32 |
| Charlie_X | Okay, same time next week. | 18:33 |
| Charlie_X | I'm off to continue the fascinating work on CMF's CookieCrumbler | 18:33 |
| *** wosc has quit IRC | 18:33 | |
| Theuni1 | Charlie_X: eek. i just fiddled with that last week :( | 18:34 |
| Charlie_X | Do tell Theuni1 | 18:35 |
| Charlie_X | Yuppie has a branch with quite a few changes. | 18:35 |
| Charlie_X | And I break more than I fix. | 18:35 |
| Charlie_X | :-) | 18:35 |
| * baijum the idea of using #zope IRC channel for weekly meeting will work for "zope" launchpad project and "zope" wiki | 18:36 | |
| Charlie_X | It will be no more folderish and will not handle unauthorized any more. | 18:36 |
| Charlie_X | And I want to get rid of some acquisition warts | 18:37 |
| *** goschtl has quit IRC | 18:37 | |
| *** agroszer has quit IRC | 18:41 | |
| *** astoon has quit IRC | 18:42 | |
| *** r0ver has joined #zope | 18:43 | |
| *** agroszer has joined #zope | 18:45 | |
| *** thetetet has quit IRC | 18:47 | |
| *** Theuni1 has quit IRC | 18:54 | |
| *** astoon has joined #zope | 18:56 | |
| *** tiwula has joined #zope | 19:00 | |
| *** r0ver has quit IRC | 19:02 | |
| *** giampaolo has quit IRC | 19:06 | |
| *** simelbaz has quit IRC | 19:22 | |
| *** simelbaz has joined #zope | 19:23 | |
| *** davisagli has joined #zope | 19:24 | |
| *** fredvd|shop is now known as fredvd | 19:25 | |
| *** runyaga has joined #zope | 19:30 | |
| *** mr_jolly has joined #zope | 19:30 | |
| *** simelbaz has quit IRC | 19:40 | |
| *** ccomb has quit IRC | 19:41 | |
| *** sashav has joined #zope | 20:03 | |
| *** baijum has quit IRC | 20:11 | |
| *** daMaestro has quit IRC | 20:12 | |
| *** mcdonc has quit IRC | 20:24 | |
| *** mcdonc has joined #zope | 20:26 | |
| *** emrojo has quit IRC | 20:27 | |
| *** giampaolo has joined #zope | 20:29 | |
| *** dunny has joined #zope | 20:29 | |
| *** dunny has quit IRC | 20:29 | |
| *** daMaestro has joined #zope | 20:29 | |
| *** eperez has quit IRC | 20:31 | |
| *** TKtiddle has joined #zope | 20:41 | |
| *** sim_sim has quit IRC | 20:46 | |
| *** digitalmortician has joined #zope | 20:49 | |
| regebro | My new awesome zope.testrunner + zope.testing is so far looking good on Plone 4... <fingers crossed, touch wood> | 20:50 |
| Charlie_X | woot | 20:52 |
| regebro | Dammit. One more test failed. | 20:59 |
| * Charlie_X groans | 21:03 | |
| *** zagy has quit IRC | 21:05 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has joined #zope | 21:07 | |
| *** opsec has quit IRC | 21:10 | |
| *** cbcunc has quit IRC | 21:13 | |
| *** TomBlockley has quit IRC | 21:18 | |
| *** evilbungle has quit IRC | 21:18 | |
| *** hever has quit IRC | 21:19 | |
| *** TomBlockley has joined #zope | 21:19 | |
| *** evilbungle has joined #zope | 21:22 | |
| *** opsec has joined #zope | 21:23 | |
| *** astoon has quit IRC | 21:27 | |
| srichter | regebro: that's great news | 21:28 |
| srichter | regebro: now we just need a way to better promote zope.testing | 21:28 |
| regebro | srichter: Once I have fixed the failing wicked test, yes. :) | 21:28 |
| regebro | It's a BBB issue in wicked, so it's not a disaster, but it should be easy. :) | 21:29 |
| Charlie_X | There's a great sense of anticipation in the room as the crowd looks on... | 21:29 |
| srichter | :-) | 21:30 |
| Charlie_X | A bit like the Tango ads - do you know them? | 21:31 |
| regebro | Well, there we go! Failing test fixed! | 21:35 |
| * Charlie_X claps and stomps his feet, popcorn flying everywhere. | 21:36 | |
| regebro | ping J1m? If you have time, otherwise I'll take it on zope-dev. | 21:36 |
| srichter | regebro: are you going to make a new release of zope.testing (should get a major, major version bump) and zope.testrunner? | 21:36 |
| srichter | regebro: J1m is on #zope3-dev, so he probably responds there | 21:37 |
| regebro | srichter: Not just yet. | 21:37 |
| *** astoon has joined #zope | 21:37 | |
| regebro | OK, joining zope3-dev too. :) | 21:38 |
| regebro | srichter: I want to convince Jim that its' the right thing to do, and port zope.testrunner to Python 3 first. | 21:38 |
| regebro | And update the testing recipe to be able to use both zope.testrunenr or zope.testing.testrunner. | 21:39 |
| regebro | But that should be it. | 21:39 |
| srichter | regebro: I cannot imagine why he would object | 21:39 |
| srichter | makes perfect sense to me | 21:39 |
| Charlie_X | me too. I thought the discussion had been had. We need testing to proceed with porting the rest. | 21:40 |
| regebro | srichter: Because monkey-patches are ebil. :) And I agree, they are, but as noted (by you, I don't remember?) less ebil than an incompatible version. | 21:40 |
| srichter | regebro: I think Marius made that argument | 21:41 |
| regebro | Charlie_X: The discussion was had, but jim never responded to the followups to his -1. | 21:41 |
| J1m | regebro, ? | 21:41 |
| srichter | regebro: see using the J1m enough makes him pay attention ;-) | 21:42 |
| regebro | J1m: my zope.testing branch is ready, and zope.testrunner is almost ready. | 21:42 |
| J1m | Just once is enough to trigger growl. I have to be looking at my screen to notice the growl pop ups. | 21:42 |
| regebro | It monkeypatches stdlib, as mentioned, for BBB compatibility. | 21:42 |
| regebro | You -1:d that, I want to try to convince you that it's a good idea. :) | 21:43 |
| J1m | You won't. | 21:43 |
| regebro | Hmm. | 21:43 |
| J1m | Which isn't to say you can't get away with releasing the change, but I'll still be -1. | 21:44 |
| J1m | still a strong -1. | 21:44 |
| regebro | The alternatives are to not support Python 3 for the forseeable future, or simply drop zope.tetsing.doctest with no BBB. I think those alternatives are worse. | 21:44 |
| srichter | ok, what do we want to achieve? Maybe we don't even need to care about BBB, which makes this issue mute? | 21:44 |
| J1m | I think dropping zope.testing.doctest for python3 is fine. | 21:45 |
| regebro | J1m: Yeah, but that's tricky to do without also dropping it for Python 2. | 21:45 |
| srichter | regebro: really? Can we not just have a version check? | 21:45 |
| J1m | I would think that isn't that hard with a little setup.py work. | 21:46 |
| regebro | There is not only monkey patches, but also a deprecation warning. | 21:46 |
| srichter | like distribute our doctest.py as _doctest.py and in __init__.py do the check and import | 21:46 |
| J1m | there ya go | 21:46 |
| regebro | srichter: It will still get copied and 2to3 run to it, and that will fail. | 21:46 |
| regebro | Giving error messages. | 21:47 |
| regebro | Possibly the setup.py can have explicit file lists, but that seems silly. | 21:47 |
| srichter | then call it _doctest.py.bak2 and rename the file when in Py2 | 21:47 |
| *** astoon has quit IRC | 21:47 | |
| * J1m is going to start a Python tea party movement | 21:47 | |
| * J1m doesn't want to pay the p3k tax | 21:48 | |
| srichter | J1m: what is your goal? Oh, I forgot the tea party has no goals. | 21:48 |
| regebro | srichter: Seems hard to do and still have it working in development mode. | 21:48 |
| J1m | srichter, :) | 21:48 |
| srichter | regebro: it will work in dev mode, since the module's __init__ always does the right thing based on version | 21:49 |
| J1m | py3k is a problem that has to be solved -- alot like the tea party movement :) | 21:50 |
| srichter | regebro: I guess a custom fixer fir 2to3 would also work | 21:50 |
| srichter | J1m: we don't need no education (and no roads too) | 21:50 |
| regebro | srichter: renaming it in the __init__? Ew... | 21:50 |
| Charlie_X | J1m: this kind of tea party? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgzEBLa3PPk | 21:50 |
| srichter | regebro: well,I think that could be better than a monkey patch | 21:51 |
| regebro | Yeah, Python 3 is a problem, a gradual move would have been better. But there ya go... | 21:51 |
| J1m | srichter, actually, I'd like to build things, but py3k is sucking up resources instead. | 21:51 |
| J1m | py3k is stop energy | 21:52 |
| regebro | srichter: OK, you try it. I don't see how it works without massive ugliness... | 21:52 |
| srichter | J1m: oh now I see, like the guys in the big white building around the corner from you... that makes sense :-) | 21:52 |
| * J1m thanks regebro and srichter for an excuse to vent about py3k -- I usually don't think about it. :) | 21:52 | |
| J1m | srichter, I suppose. | 21:53 |
| * Charlie_X given J1m's response wonders if py3k will go the same way as zope 3 | 21:53 | |
| * J1m doesn't *really* want to people to think he's a tea partier. | 21:53 | |
| regebro | Charlie_X: We'll know in a year or two. | 21:54 |
| J1m | z3 can at least be absorbed/backported to z2. | 21:54 |
| regebro | Anyhooo, I won't port zope.testrunner to Python 3 until we have an acceptable zope.testing branch for Python 3. I think we *do* but that's me. :) | 21:55 |
| srichter | Charlie_X: I don't think so; they have tried much harder to have a migration path; and the work that Tarek, Lennart and others are doing are witness to that (I think) | 21:55 |
| Charlie_X | Isn't that what's largely happened with Python 2.6 & 2.7? | 21:55 |
| regebro | Charlie_X: Partly, yes. | 21:56 |
| regebro | The big issue is binary vs string vs unicode. That could have been solved differently. | 21:56 |
| Charlie_X | ah | 21:56 |
| srichter | yeah, and based on the python-dev discussions not all kinks are worked out yet either | 21:57 |
| regebro | And we could have had a gradual path. yes, it would have taken 5-6 years, but so will Python 3. | 21:57 |
| srichter | that scares me most about trying Py3 (other than I cannot do anything useful) | 21:57 |
| J1m | regebro, I support and appreciate what you're doing. Please don't misunderstand me. | 21:57 |
| J1m | But, having said that, I'm still -1 on monkey-patching the stdlib. | 21:58 |
| regebro | srichter: doctests explode in a big firework, unfortunately. | 21:58 |
| Charlie_X | It's a chicken and egg situation - no libraries = no developers = no libraries | 21:58 |
| J1m | I'd be for finding out a way to use the stdlib doctest for py3k without patches. | 21:58 |
| regebro | J1m: Thanks, I don't misunderstand it like that. It's just that I've ported the testrunner twice already and it's a LOT of work. | 21:58 |
| J1m | I'm sure it can be done somehow, but I'm not interested in spending the time to figure out myself. Sorry. | 21:59 |
| regebro | I'm not going to do it again unless I know it will be merged. | 21:59 |
| *** agroszer has quit IRC | 21:59 | |
| Charlie_X | I think if regebro's work allows us to bootstrap the rest of the work, the monkey patch can be removed in time. | 21:59 |
| regebro | And that means I want a zope.testing branch without the testrunner that runs on Python 3 (and can run Plone 4 tests). | 22:00 |
| J1m | Charlie_X, that's a fair point. | 22:00 |
| regebro | ready for merging. | 22:00 |
| srichter | regebro: J1m: I am for finding the easiest way to get Lennarts functionality while not monkey-patching; this way the work can be merged quickly and will not bit rot | 22:00 |
| *** webmaven has joined #zope | 22:01 | |
| Charlie_X | What about J1m's suggestion to use Manuel? | 22:01 |
| srichter | I would be fine with that too; I recently started using Manuel and relaly like it | 22:02 |
| regebro | Charlie_X: That's a matter of going through all modules and removing all use of zope.testing.doctest. | 22:02 |
| J1m | Charlie_X, I don't think regebro wan't to work that hard. | 22:02 |
| J1m | I don't blame him. | 22:02 |
| Charlie_X | I don't blame him either. But it could be put on the roadmap. | 22:03 |
| J1m | regebro, not necessarily, if you could make a zope.testing.doctest facade for manuel. | 22:03 |
| J1m | Not sure how hard that would be. | 22:03 |
| regebro | J1m: Yeah, that could possibly work, but it sounds hard to do that so it's remotely compatible. | 22:04 |
| Charlie_X | I'm sure we'll hit a lot more other things with other modules once the port to 3 starts. | 22:04 |
| regebro | There is a lot of little edgecases. :) | 22:04 |
| J1m | Here, let's just drop zope.testing.doctest from zope.testing and bump the first digit. | 22:04 |
| *** teix has left #zope | 22:04 | |
| regebro | Charlie_X: It's started. ;) zope.interface, .event and .exception s trunks all run on Python 3. | 22:05 |
| J1m | easy peezy :) | 22:05 |
| regebro | J1m: well, we can. But that's a pretty short deprecation period. | 22:06 |
| srichter | J1m: yeah, I thought we started the discussion with that suggestion | 22:06 |
| srichter | I agree, just make a new major major release | 22:06 |
| J1m | Bumping the first digit is always an option. | 22:06 |
| regebro | J1m: I was gonna do that anyway. :) | 22:06 |
| regebro | Although I added zope.testing.testrunner BBB import too so strictly it's not needed I guess. | 22:07 |
| J1m | IMO, we should then still port bug fixes to 3. | 22:07 |
| regebro | It's compatible enough to run Plone 4 tests without additional failures, so. :) | 22:07 |
| J1m | IOW, maintain 3 for a while, perhaps a set period. | 22:07 |
| Charlie_X | hm - release with no zope.testing.doctest with the information that either a monkey patch or manuel façade is required | 22:07 |
| regebro | I can release the monkey-patch as a separate product... :) | 22:08 |
| regebro | zope.testing.BBB | 22:08 |
| Charlie_X | regebro: getting it to work with the borg is impressive | 22:08 |
| J1m | Just release 4 wo zope.testing.doctest and tell people who haven't updated their packages to use 3. | 22:08 |
| *** allisterb_ has quit IRC | 22:09 | |
| Charlie_X | If anyone really needs zope.testing.doctest then they can help on getting it to work. | 22:09 |
| regebro | J1m: We'll I'm OK with that, even though it means I've wasted a couple of days. :) | 22:09 |
| J1m | or they can use 3 | 22:09 |
| Charlie_X | Don't think it of them as wasted. | 22:09 |
| J1m | Think of it as character building | 22:10 |
| *** BeeBob has quit IRC | 22:10 | |
| * regebro tries. | 22:10 | |
| * regebro fails. | 22:10 | |
| Charlie_X | According to your e-mail some of the stuff you put on the Python bugtracker. So maybe the stdlib will pick up the changes anyway. | 22:10 |
| * Charlie_X offers regebro a nice cold beer | 22:10 | |
| regebro | Charlie_X: Unlikely. Nobody cares. There isn't enough people triaging bugs for Python. | 22:11 |
| * J1m dislikes the stdlib almost as much as py3k | 22:11 | |
| * regebro switches it for a whisky. | 22:11 | |
| * Charlie_X thinks J1m is hard to please | 22:11 | |
| Charlie_X | ;-) | 22:11 |
| regebro | Yeah, I've realized that batteries included isn't as good as having a power cable. | 22:11 |
| regebro | (ie easy_install/pip/buildout/whatever) | 22:12 |
| J1m | It's too hard to evolve packages in the stdlib, unless you don't actually need changes in a timely fashion. Putting packages in the stdlibb invites forks. | 22:12 |
| *** smita has quit IRC | 22:13 | |
| regebro | Yup. | 22:13 |
| * Charlie_X really likes the stdlib but realises that it can never be perfect. | 22:14 | |
| Charlie_X | A smaller stdlib is probably essential. | 22:14 |
| regebro | And I don't like unittests API, doctest is buggy, distutils doesn't do enough, etc, etc, etc. :) | 22:14 |
| *** smita has joined #zope | 22:14 | |
| *** hever has joined #zope | 22:15 | |
| regebro | But guido has realized this too, and pretty much says no now if anyone wants anything in stdlib. | 22:15 |
| regebro | inclusion in stdlib == death | 22:15 |
| Charlie_X | No, it means freeze | 22:15 |
| Charlie_X | And that is often, in itself, no bad thing. | 22:16 |
| regebro | Yeah, we'll lets freeze you and see how much you move afterwards. :) | 22:16 |
| * J1m likes regebro's power cable analogy | 22:17 | |
| * J1m goes back to work | 22:17 | |
| *** J1m has left #zope | 22:17 | |
| Charlie_X | I think the problem is tying the stdlib to Python versions. | 22:17 |
| regebro | What would the alternative be? | 22:17 |
| *** zagy has joined #zope | 22:17 | |
| regebro | Oh, shoot, now I forgot to ask jim if we should have BBB for zope.testing.testrunner or drop that too... | 22:18 |
| regebro | Eh, I'll drop it. :) | 22:18 |
| Charlie_X | I think it's fine at the moment to drop it. People will yell soon enough if they miss it. | 22:19 |
| srichter | yep, drop it :-) | 22:19 |
| regebro | OK, will post headsup on zope.dev about this. | 22:20 |
| *** Hypergraphe has joined #zope | 22:20 | |
| Charlie_X | Great. Python 3 has its own problems but hopefully fewer warts in total than Python 2 | 22:21 |
| *** allisterb has joined #zope | 22:21 | |
| *** zagy has quit IRC | 22:22 | |
| * Charlie_X notes that it is usually the more gifted and experience programmers who are most against change. | 22:22 | |
| * Charlie_X notes that it is also usually the most inexperienced programmers that try out all the new toys | 22:22 | |
| moo--- | let's be against the change long enough so that it is cheaper to rewrite everything from scratch :) | 22:22 |
| moo--- | this way we can feel more productive :) | 22:23 |
| Charlie_X | hm, what would be the logical consequence of that? A programming language called "Fawlty"? | 22:24 |
| *** mrfrenzy has left #zope | 22:26 | |
| regebro | Experience means you are used to the warts, and don't see why anybody would want to fix them. :) | 22:29 |
| Charlie_X | That and the "hideous stick" effect. | 22:30 |
| *** hever has quit IRC | 22:33 | |
| Charlie_X | Congratulations Lennart | 22:34 |
| *** RaFromBRC_ has joined #zope | 22:39 | |
| *** RaFromBRC has quit IRC | 22:42 | |
| *** regebro has quit IRC | 22:56 | |
| *** sunew has joined #zope | 22:58 | |
| *** Charlie_X has quit IRC | 23:14 | |
| *** thetet has joined #zope | 23:21 | |
| *** TKtiddle has quit IRC | 23:24 | |
| *** regebro has joined #zope | 23:24 | |
| *** sunew has quit IRC | 23:34 | |
| *** BeeBob has joined #zope | 23:44 | |
| *** mcdonc has quit IRC | 23:44 | |
| *** astoon has joined #zope | 23:47 | |
| *** mcdonc has joined #zope | 23:48 | |
| *** giampaolo has quit IRC | 23:51 | |
| davisagli | can someone review my zope.interface patch in https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope.interface/+bug/570942 ? | 23:52 |
| *** hever has joined #zope | 23:52 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!