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| fdrake | TresEquis: I suspect I should be able to update the importance of bugs for zope.tal and zope.pagetemplate, but don't appear to have appropriate permissions on those. | 00:27 |
|---|---|---|
| fdrake | Is that something you know how to change, or do you know who I should bug about it? | 00:28 |
| TresEquis | you need to be a member of ztk-steering-group, likely | 00:28 |
| TresEquis | which would give you perms for all the ZTK packages | 00:28 |
| TresEquis | I can add you, if you like | 00:29 |
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| fdrake | Egads, that would be a lot of packages! | 00:29 |
| fdrake | I think I'll be content to just ignore those two packages as much as I can for now. :-) | 00:30 |
| TresEquis | k | 00:30 |
| fdrake | I do expect a number of developers would be interested in being involved in only a subset of the packages in the ZTK; I'm not sure if there's a way to handle that on LP. | 00:31 |
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| TKtiddle | Hi could anyone be so kind as to look at this script I've registered as a view but I'm getting an error with it.Script: http://tinyurl.com/3xub587 error: http://109.74.197.19:8080/ci | 00:39 |
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| Omega_ | Can anyone point me to a good tutorial on creating my own indexes for zodb? Probably something surrounding using OOBTrees? | 00:46 |
| r0ver | Omega_: what version of Zope are you using ? | 00:48 |
| Omega_ | No zope, just zodb. | 00:48 |
| r0ver | Omega_: zodb version ? :) | 00:49 |
| Omega_ | Ack! Best way to check? :) | 00:49 |
| Omega_ | I'm hoping the latest, let me see what I get when I try to reinstall it with easy_install... | 00:49 |
| Omega_ | 3.10.0a1 | 00:50 |
| Omega_ | ? | 00:50 |
| r0ver | Omega_: did you check at http://zodb.org/#documentation ? | 00:50 |
| Omega_ | Yeah, I've scoured around. OOBTree and all it's friends don't get much mention. | 00:51 |
| Omega_ | Not that I could find. | 00:51 |
| Omega_ | Especially not in the context of just simply creating the indexes and tossing them into the root of the DB. | 00:51 |
| Omega_ | (which is to me is the most primitive use -- an effective "hello world" of btree indexing with zodb) | 00:51 |
| Omega_ | Which is probably what I'm looking for... :( | 00:51 |
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| Omega_ | If I want to create an object index by a string value found on that object, do I use an IOBTree or an OOBTree? | 00:53 |
| davisagli | Omega_: I don't know about a tutorial, but maybe look at the code of zope.catalog and zope.index ... or of cornerstone.soup | 00:53 |
| davisagli | Omega_: OOBTree; IOBTree uses integer keys | 00:54 |
| Omega_ | That's what I assumed. | 00:54 |
| Omega_ | Regarding existing projects, they all seem to build off of zope's catalogs. Difficult to grok what's going on in the code. | 00:57 |
| Omega_ | This is really holding me up, I wish the zodb project would have a bit more hand holding ;) | 00:57 |
| Omega_ | In the documentation that is. | 00:58 |
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| r0ver | Omega_: i have a similar prolbem recently and i solved watching zope's code, in particular tests cases | 01:06 |
| Omega_ | Well, there's this: http://www.blazingthings.com/dev/zcatalog.html | 01:06 |
| Omega_ | Which is probably spot on for what I want to do, but it doesn't seem to have coalesced into a project I can rely on. | 01:06 |
| r0ver | Omega_: either you want to create a new kind of index or an instance of an already existant index, watching code from Products.PluginIndexes.FieldIndex.FieldIndex helped a lot | 01:07 |
| Omega_ | Ideally I want all my data classes to know how to index themselves upon creation. | 01:07 |
| Omega_ | Just write one base data class and then when it's extended, they highlight which properties are to be indexed. | 01:08 |
| Omega_ | Which as a result creates the btrees based on the Class and property name. | 01:08 |
| Omega_ | (property or attribute, whatever ;) ) | 01:08 |
| r0ver | that page is kinda old, but general concepts may be applied: "This page was last updated Aug 30, 2005." | 01:08 |
| Omega_ | Exactly! :) | 01:09 |
| Omega_ | Just that I'm somewhat newish to doing this indexing manually - so it'll take a while for me to understand what's being done. | 01:10 |
| Omega_ | Which is kind of what drew me here to ask about tutorials, which might do better at explaining the concepts as they are applied. | 01:10 |
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| MatthewWilkes | Omega_: I don't think there are many people doing this kind of indexing manually. Most people that use ZODB will be either using Zope to handle it and the few that aren't and need indexing will probably think they know all the answers anyway ;) | 01:11 |
| Omega_ | all too true. Trying to learn is definitely an unforgiving process ;) | 01:11 |
| MatthewWilkes | Omega_: There will probably be good stuff to crib from in ZCatalog, the simpler indexes especially shouldn't require any zope stuff | 01:12 |
| Omega_ | Alright, I'll put that on my hit list next then. | 01:12 |
| mcdonc | there's not much tutorial grist around but you might get use out of reading the code at http://svn.repoze.org/repoze.catalog/trunk/ | 01:12 |
| mcdonc | this is effectively a zope2 style "catalog" without the zope2 | 01:13 |
| mcdonc | (it uses a package named "zope.index" under the hood to implement actual indexes) | 01:13 |
| mcdonc | end user docs are at http://docs.repoze.org/catalog | 01:14 |
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| mcdonc | (reading this will almost certainly be more productive than reading zope2 catalog code, as that code has zope2-isms in it that you wil trip over) | 01:17 |
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| Omega_ | That was my concern when it came to the concept of "catalogs". | 01:19 |
| Omega_ | I'd rather just deal with fields or text being indexed. | 01:20 |
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| Omega_ | Thanks for the help all! | 01:51 |
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| pavanbabu | Hi all | 13:18 |
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| pavanbabu | hi all can any body tell zeopack how it works | 15:17 |
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| Charlie_X | Looks like a pack command for Zeo-based setups. | 15:20 |
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| fredvd | pavanbabu: If you delete an object in your zope site it's marked as deleted in the ZODB but not removed. | 15:46 |
| fredvd | if you run a zeopack the ZODB is compacted by removing all the objects that have been marked as deleted. | 15:46 |
| pavanbabu | fredvd:thanks | 15:47 |
| pavanbabu | fredvd:but i am using buildout which recipe does it support? | 15:48 |
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| seppo14 | while installing 2.12.5 i get error: Installed distribution pytz 2010h conflicts with requirement pytz<=2010b | 16:16 |
| betabug | seppo14: you'll probably have to tell people in which way you try to install | 16:17 |
| seppo14 | easy_install | 16:17 |
| seppo14 | easy_install http://pypi.python.org/packages/source/Z/Zope2/Zope2-2.12.5.zip | 16:17 |
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| seppo14 | damn my mistake | 16:18 |
| betabug | your system python has a different version of pytz installed | 16:18 |
| seppo14 | yep | 16:18 |
| betabug | you want a cleaner python :-) | 16:18 |
| seppo14 | just noticed i did not switch to my other env | 16:18 |
| seppo14 | thanks for the help, i guess that's it :) | 16:18 |
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| betabug | no problem :-) | 16:25 |
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| hannosch | ccomb: ping? are you here? | 17:04 |
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| hannosch | j-w__: looks like Christophe isn't here today. shall we aim for Thursday? | 17:28 |
| j-w__ | hannosch: that's ok with me | 17:28 |
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| hannosch | j-w__: ok, hope your move did go well :) | 17:29 |
| j-w__ | it will actually give me a bit more time to attend | 17:29 |
| j-w__ | hannosch: it went quite ok | 17:29 |
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| hannosch | ok, that doesn't sounds all that happy ;) | 17:30 |
| j-w__ | moving is always messy :-) | 17:30 |
| j-w__ | so much cruft that you gather in an office you know | 17:30 |
| j-w__ | loads and loads of paper, broken hardware that you didn;t throw away | 17:30 |
| hannosch | right, the trick is to throw stuff away well in advance :) | 17:31 |
| j-w__ | old computers you cannot say goodbye to | 17:31 |
| j-w__ | right :-) | 17:31 |
| hannosch | yeah. they'll remind you how heavy things used to be :) | 17:31 |
| j-w__ | and then making yourself at home again in the new office | 17:31 |
| j-w__ | exactly! :-) | 17:31 |
| hannosch | yep. but it's an improvement, right? | 17:32 |
| j-w__ | and actually we will be working from two different locations to limit the amount of commuting | 17:32 |
| j-w__ | so today we setup the second locations | 17:32 |
| j-w__ | in the end it is an improvement :) | 17:32 |
| hannosch | ah, ok. sounds like you are going to have fun for a while :) | 17:35 |
| j-w__ | and you fully recovered? | 17:36 |
| j-w__ | it sounded like being ill caught you in exactly the wrong moment | 17:37 |
| j-w__ | (it almost always does of course...) | 17:37 |
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| hannosch | j-w__: ah, it was just too many of us being at the same place. I blame it on continental viruses - and not any of the alcohol we drank ;) | 17:39 |
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| j-w__ | hannosch: LOL - of course not! | 17:39 |
| hannosch | so it's just been a day at home sleeping a lot | 17:39 |
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| ccomb | hannosch | 17:48 |
| hannosch | ccomb: ah. you read your mails? | 17:49 |
| ccomb | not for a few hours | 17:49 |
| ccomb | ok reading | 17:49 |
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| LeoRochael | can mr.developer checkout bzr branches? | 17:50 |
| hannosch | ccomb: ok. j-w__ proposed to meet today. but he only has time for the next 40min. I guess we'll do the regular zope meeting instead | 17:50 |
| j-w__ | hannosch: agreed | 17:50 |
| hannosch | ccomb: does Thursday anytime work for you? | 17:52 |
| ccomb | ok I was not much available during the past week, I will have more time from tomorrow | 17:52 |
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| ccomb | thursday I'm available only during the evening | 17:53 |
| ccomb | I'm mean the french evening :P | 17:53 |
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| ccomb | otherwise any other day is ok | 17:54 |
| j-w__ | ccomb, hannosch thursday evening would work for me I think | 17:54 |
| j-w__ | say between 20:00 and 21:00 (CEST) | 17:54 |
| hannosch | would work for me as well | 17:55 |
| ccomb | ok | 17:55 |
| j-w__ | i would not like to move to next week again, since I'm not sure about friday | 17:55 |
| j-w__ | ok, thursday 20:00 - 21:00 (CEST) then! | 17:55 |
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| * ccomb would like to have a TZ coprocessor in the brain | 17:56 | |
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| j-w__ | ccomb: German, French and Dutch time :) | 17:57 |
| LeoRochael | ccomb: timeanddate.com is usually enough for me :-) | 17:57 |
| ccomb | ok thanks :P | 17:57 |
| * Charlie_X says ccomb shouldn't worry about keeping time. We know you are French :-P | 17:57 | |
| hannosch | ccomb: what time are you currently using? not utc+2 ? | 17:57 |
| ccomb | mmh I suppose so | 17:57 |
| ccomb | it's 5pm | 17:58 |
| hannosch | ccomb: indeed. then we are all on the same timezone | 17:58 |
| Charlie_X | CEST is UTC and valid from Spain to Poland (UK and Ireland excepted) | 17:58 |
| bigkevmcd | let's just ignore Portugal ;-) | 17:59 |
| hannosch | CEST is UTC+2 | 17:59 |
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| TresEquis | we ready? | 18:00 |
| regebro | Time! | 18:00 |
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| * regebro has coffee | 18:00 | |
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| * ccomb just finished a waffle | 18:00 | |
| regebro | And Christian just lost connection. Nice timing. :) | 18:01 |
| * TresEquis was thinking about chicken waffles this morning | 18:01 | |
| Charlie_X | Hi everyone. Theuni asked me to convene as he's in a train somewhere. | 18:01 |
| Charlie_X | First up KGS 3.4.1 release status | 18:01 |
| TresEquis | agroszer: are you the one with KGS 3.4.1 status update? | 18:01 |
| agroszer | I guess | 18:01 |
| * agroszer was distracted | 18:02 | |
| agroszer | I'm waiting on becoming a ZF member | 18:02 |
| agroszer | it seems like scp access to download.zope.org goes through that way | 18:02 |
| hannosch | huh? is that what Jens said? | 18:02 |
| agroszer | otherwise tests pass, need to publish a 3.4.1b1 | 18:03 |
| agroszer | nah, just seems like it's beter to be a ZF member | 18:03 |
| agroszer | +t | 18:03 |
| regebro | agroszer: It seems right, yeah. :) | 18:03 |
| hannosch | agroszer: ok. but it shouldn't block anything. just ask Jens | 18:03 |
| baijum | agroszer: ZF member is different from ZF committer ? | 18:03 |
| agroszer | good question | 18:04 |
| hannosch | yes. the two have nothing to do with each other | 18:04 |
| regebro | It probably takes to long to become a member, last board meeting got postponed, I think. | 18:04 |
| baijum | ah. ok | 18:04 |
| agroszer | regebro, I read 10 days | 18:04 |
| * Charlie_X has commit rights but not a member of the foundation | 18:04 | |
| * baijum is not a ZF member. but has access to download.zope.org | 18:04 | |
| agroszer | unless someone does not want you | 18:04 |
| agroszer | okok, I'll talk to Jens | 18:05 |
| Charlie_X | That's much faster than joining the PSF... | 18:05 |
| agroszer | :-D | 18:05 |
| regebro | agroszer: 10 days is likely to not corresponding to actuality. :) | 18:05 |
| Charlie_X | Okay, so doublecheck with Jens and press the button. | 18:05 |
| * agroszer raising the finger... | 18:05 | |
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| Charlie_X | Anymore on the KGS? | 18:06 |
| ccomb | 9404 tests, 2 failures on python 2.4 | 18:06 |
| ccomb | same on 2.5 | 18:06 |
| agroszer | what's the BB address again? | 18:06 |
| ccomb | http://buildbot.afpy.org/kgs3.4.1/waterfall | 18:07 |
| Charlie_X | Sounds like topic #2 Test runners/nightly builds | 18:07 |
| Charlie_X | - Windows machines | 18:07 |
| TresEquis | ccomb: do we need to backport Lennart's fixes? | 18:07 |
| agroszer | ccomb, you're missing enscript | 18:07 |
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| agroszer | and using distribute instead of setuptools | 18:07 |
| * Charlie_X wishes to give Lennart a round of applause for zope.testing on >= 3.1 | 18:07 | |
| regebro | TresEquis: Doens't sound like it, because they didn't fail on 2.5. | 18:08 |
| * ccomb aptitude install enscript | 18:08 | |
| regebro | Charlie_X: Well, it doesn't exist yet. :) | 18:08 |
| baijum | All our buildbots sends status to zope-tests list ? http://docs.zope.org/zopetoolkit/process/buildbots.html | 18:08 |
| regebro | Except as a branch. | 18:08 |
| do3cc | hi | 18:10 |
| ccomb | can't we put an ellipsis on the setuptools/distribute line causing the failure? | 18:10 |
| do3cc | baijum: I am working on getting better notifications, Its not done yet because I was in a long holiday | 18:10 |
| baijum | do3cc: ok, fine | 18:11 |
| agroszer | ccomb, actually it should be a (setuptools|distribute) | 18:11 |
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| agroszer | ccomb, maybe the normalizer can do it | 18:12 |
| regebro | The normalizer can do it. | 18:12 |
| regebro | I added one on trunk already, | 18:12 |
| ccomb | that means releasing a new version of zc.recipe.testrunner? | 18:12 |
| agroszer | sure | 18:12 |
| regebro | ccomb: Trunk *may* use zope.testrunner, so be careful. :) | 18:13 |
| agroszer | I'll look into that | 18:13 |
| agroszer | let's keep the topic | 18:13 |
| TresEquis | hannosch, agroszer, sidnei: any update on the MSDN invites? Did you get the license keys? | 18:13 |
| agroszer | TresEquis, nothing unless it went to gmail spam | 18:14 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: I filled in the info using the invitation key, but haven't heard anything back | 18:14 |
| ccomb | (ok so now I'm relaunching the KGS 3.4.1 tests with enscript and setuptools) | 18:14 |
| agroszer | same here | 18:14 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: could you poke your Microsoft contact about it? | 18:14 |
| TresEquis | OK, will do | 18:15 |
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| hannosch | thx | 18:15 |
| * TresEquis is still uncertain how those license keys will work with the EC2 image we are thinking to use | 18:15 | |
| TresEquis | and just how that will mesh with the Health Agency's offer to host the image via vmware | 18:16 |
| agroszer | I think the requirement gathering thread went silent | 18:16 |
| * Charlie_X thinks we should be looking at getting a whole MS Azure setup for the windows buids | 18:16 | |
| hannosch | TresEquis: if we play by the Microsoft license rules, it is probably all impossible | 18:17 |
| * TresEquis has enough blues already :) | 18:17 | |
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| * Charlie_X we could be an MS poster child | 18:17 | |
| agroszer | sidnei is around? | 18:18 |
| * mgedmin wonders why enscript is needed -- for z3c.coverage only? | 18:18 | |
| hannosch | once we get the actual concrete license, I can look up the license terms | 18:18 |
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| agroszer | mgedmin, yes | 18:18 |
| * mgedmin mumbles about switching to pygments at some point | 18:18 | |
| agroszer | TresEquis, I think we're waiting on sidnei to do the AMI | 18:19 |
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| agroszer | if I remember well | 18:19 |
| Charlie_X | Okay, so Tres to kick some MS butt re. licences | 18:20 |
| Charlie_X | agroszer: what is AMI? | 18:20 |
| regebro | It feels like the speed of this meeting halted. | 18:20 |
| agroszer | machine image | 18:20 |
| agroszer | Charlie_X, machine image | 18:20 |
| Charlie_X | Thanks. Deliverable from Sidnei outstanding. | 18:20 |
| Charlie_X | Anything else on this topic? | 18:20 |
| TresEquis | we need | 18:21 |
| TresEquis | a grok smoketest being posted to zope-tests | 18:21 |
| TresEquis | not all [the little grokcore.* ones | 18:21 |
| TresEquis | just "is Grok 1.0" (or 1.1) "broken today?" | 18:22 |
| TresEquis | so we know if we broke something by changes to the ZTK | 18:22 |
| Charlie_X | As per your e-mail earlier? hannosch will you take this up with Jan-Wijbrand on Thursday in case it isn't covered earlier? | 18:22 |
| LeoRochael | IIUC grok versions for 1.0 are totally pinned, so unlikely to be broken. grok trunk OTOH, would make a lot of sense | 18:23 |
| Charlie_X | Next - Deprecating Python < 2.5 | 18:23 |
| regebro | I'm +/-0 on that. | 18:23 |
| Charlie_X | It looks like we're starting to find areas where without deprecation we have considerable problems. | 18:23 |
| Charlie_X | I'm +1 on it. Python 2.4 is itself not maintained. | 18:24 |
| Charlie_X | And even Debian has moved off it | 18:24 |
| ccomb | I few weeks ago I've made some changes to some doctests so that tests pass on python2.4 on bbkit | 18:25 |
| regebro | I don't think keeping it supported is going to be that tricky, but then again, we don't need it, so... +/-0. :) | 18:25 |
| ccomb | it was just a matter of having output dicts ordered | 18:25 |
| LeoRochael | AFAIU, this only came up because we were bumping on now-resolved compat problems in some tests | 18:25 |
| LeoRochael | isn't the previous decision enough? | 18:25 |
| ccomb | I wonder how different the ztk is from bbkit | 18:25 |
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| ccomb | otherwise I don't care about python 2.4 | 18:26 |
| ccomb | I'm ok for dropping it | 18:26 |
| agroszer | yah py2.4 is damn old | 18:26 |
| LeoRochael | (2.4 on the bycicle kit, 2.5 on the rest, not explicitly break 2.4 for a while) | 18:26 |
| regebro | We'll need a bicycle toolkit buildbot. | 18:26 |
| regebro | Which means we need to define what the bicycle tookit *is*. :) | 18:27 |
| regebro | Running 2.4 to 3.1 | 18:28 |
| ccomb | should we have a bicycle.cfg in zopetoolkit ? :) | 18:28 |
| regebro | ccomb: It's a possibility... | 18:29 |
| Charlie_X | I really would like to see someone make a case as to why support 2.4 isn't byte rot. | 18:29 |
| Charlie_X | Any more votes on this? Nearly time. | 18:29 |
| regebro | Charlie_X: as long as the tests pass it's not rotting... | 18:29 |
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| hannosch | it's creating more and more pain. without any real value | 18:30 |
| baijum | +1 for dropping 2.4 | 18:30 |
| regebro | Well, no -1 votes, and time is out. | 18:30 |
| ccomb | :) | 18:30 |
| ccomb | ok python 2.4 dropped | 18:30 |
| Charlie_X | LeoRochael: seemed -1 but outvoted | 18:30 |
| * LeoRochael shrugs | 18:31 | |
| Charlie_X | Thanks everybody. | 18:31 |
| regebro | Procedure suggestion: We drop the Python 2.4 metatags, but doesn't change anything yet. | 18:31 |
| baijum | Thanks Charlie_X ! | 18:31 |
| agroszer | regebro, maybe a changelog entry? | 18:31 |
| hannosch | regebro: I'd shut down the Python 2.4 buildbots | 18:32 |
| regebro | agroszer: Yeah, sounds good. | 18:32 |
| regebro | hannosch: Right, we can do that. | 18:32 |
| Charlie_X | +1 | 18:32 |
| baijum | +1 | 18:32 |
| TresEquis | regebro: BTK is zope.interface, zope.component, zope.configuration, and dependencies | 18:32 |
| regebro | And after ZTK 1.0 official release, we actually clean up any Python 2.4 specials. | 18:32 |
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| baijum | TresEquis: the "extra_requires" will not count for BTK, is it ? | 18:33 |
| baijum | I mean deps | 18:33 |
| regebro | TresEquis: OK, we need to list them up then. Maybe I'll do that next week, and set up a builbot, I have a server that isn't doing much. | 18:33 |
| Charlie_X | ZTK status next week? | 18:33 |
| TresEquis | baijum: right: no security, no persistence, etc. | 18:33 |
| hannosch | Charlie_X: I cannot promise that we have anything by that time. And I'll be gone for the whole week at a customer | 18:34 |
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| * ccomb will replace the python2.4 buildbot warning with a python2.7 one :D | 18:34 | |
| Charlie_X | Okay. But that still leaves ccomb and j-w_ | 18:34 |
| TresEquis | regebro: I almost checked in a btk.cfg file to zopetoolkit/trunk a while back | 18:34 |
| fdrake | Argh! Did I really miss the Python 2.4 support vote? | 18:34 |
| LeoRochael | fdrake: most everybody is still here | 18:35 |
| Charlie_X | fdrake: postal votes still accepted | 18:35 |
| regebro | fdrake: Yeah. If you are -1 you are still outvoted, though. :) | 18:35 |
| fdrake | -1 for dropping 2.4 support. | 18:35 |
| cwarner | +1 for dropping | 18:35 |
| fdrake | Yeah, but for the record. | 18:35 |
| regebro | fdrake: Any arguments? | 18:35 |
| * mgedmin is wavering between -0 and +0 | 18:35 | |
| Charlie_X | fdrake: interested in your reasoning. | 18:35 |
| fdrake | I'm still using it for production applications that are still evolving. | 18:36 |
| * Charlie_X likes mgedmin's decisiveness | 18:36 | |
| fdrake | I'd like to be able to track bug fixes without having to backport everything myself. | 18:36 |
| cwarner | fdrake: evolving how nearly all decent modules are 2.5+ | 18:36 |
| regebro | What's stopping you from using 2.5 or 2.6? | 18:37 |
| fdrake | cwarner: Not sure I can parse that. | 18:37 |
| Charlie_X | fdrake are you in one of those environments where a more recent version of Python is no go? | 18:37 |
| fdrake | regebro: Time. | 18:37 |
| cwarner | right now I spend copious amounts of time backporting 2.5, 2.6+ modules if i really need them.. it's painful | 18:37 |
| fdrake | Charlie_X: No. It's a question of scheduling work. | 18:37 |
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| cwarner | yeah 2.4 is what.. 6 years old now? | 18:38 |
| regebro | fdrake: The forward breaks from 2.4 are quite small, except highly magic stuff that's in Zope 2 and zope.proxy and such. | 18:38 |
| fdrake | cwarner: I agree it's ancient. | 18:38 |
| cwarner | very few people are still targetting 2.4.. it's 2.5+ | 18:38 |
| regebro | Shouldn't take that long, or? | 18:38 |
| TresEquis | fdrake: can you help keep 2.4 support viable? | 18:38 |
| fdrake | I suspect so. | 18:38 |
| TresEquis | e.g., run buildbot / nightly tests, and help track fixes? | 18:38 |
| fdrake | At least where specific issues come up. | 18:39 |
| TresEquis | I think we can leave the "don't intentionally break 2.4" policy in place for a while | 18:39 |
| fdrake | I can't commit a buildbot, but I can help out with specific issues. | 18:39 |
| TresEquis | it would help if you can let us know more or less how long you need it | 18:39 |
| hannosch | for how long? another three years? | 18:39 |
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| ccomb | I can leave the 2.4 buildbot, it's already there | 18:39 |
| fdrake | TresEquis: That would be acceptable to me. | 18:39 |
| TresEquis | ccomb: OK | 18:40 |
| ccomb | maybe just removing the mail alert | 18:40 |
| cwarner | yeah i'm with hannosch.. How long do we keep the floppy disk around? | 18:40 |
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| regebro | I have no problem with keeping in 2.4 support until a ZTK 1.0, but after that I think it should be dropped. | 18:40 |
| fdrake | hannosch: I'm hoping for not all that long, but I'm not the one to schedule resources and deployments on this. | 18:40 |
| regebro | (And cleaned out in fact). | 18:40 |
| TresEquis | that seems reasonable to me | 18:40 |
| Charlie_X | I'd be okay with that but I think we need a perspective for dropping Python 2.4 | 18:40 |
| TresEquis | assuming that ZTK 1.0 release is this quarter | 18:40 |
| cwarner | if it is kept, people will keep relying on it. Sometimes you just need to make a clean break and move on | 18:41 |
| TresEquis | then 1.0.x releases (if there are any) would keep 2.4 | 18:41 |
| TresEquis | but the trunk would be clean | 18:41 |
| Charlie_X | fdrake: would it help get resources if a date for dropping support is published? | 18:41 |
| hannosch | I still think we should officially drop 2.4 support and leave it to interested community members to keep it running | 18:41 |
| fdrake | Charlie_X: Not sure. | 18:41 |
| cwarner | hannosch: sounds logical | 18:41 |
| TresEquis | hannosch: what about new language features | 18:41 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: I'm fine with the "do no harm" approach | 18:42 |
| fdrake | For the same reason as before: They aren't my resources to allocate, so I can't comment meaningfully. | 18:42 |
| hannosch | so not allowing new 2.5+ features | 18:42 |
| fdrake | A published drop-dead date makes sense as a way to approach it, though. | 18:42 |
| regebro | OK, how about this: | 18:43 |
| TresEquis | fdrake: would you be OK with tracking ZTK 1.0? There are likely to be much bigger changes on the horizon after that | 18:43 |
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| regebro | We keep Python 2.4 support for ZTK, but we don't require of most developers to support it. | 18:43 |
| regebro | Those who need it, ie fdrake, or are interested, like me, try to keep the 2.4 buildbot clean. | 18:44 |
| fdrake | TresEquis: I think so. ZTK 1.1+ should be safe for dropping 2.4 support. | 18:44 |
| ccomb | +1 | 18:44 |
| TresEquis | works for me | 18:44 |
| ccomb | ZTK 1.0 is not supposed to have the very latest changes | 18:44 |
| hannosch | hhm. ok. whatever ZTK version BlueBream is going to use, we can support 2.4 | 18:44 |
| Charlie_X | Okay. Supporting Python 2.4 in ZTK 1.0 as legacy costs nothing. A definite date may help project managers plan migration. | 18:44 |
| TresEquis | lets get ZTK 1.0 out the door ASAP | 18:44 |
| regebro | +1 | 18:45 |
| LeoRochael | +1 | 18:45 |
| hannosch | I think we'll just label some version set 1.0, which is going to be shared between the next Grok and BB releases | 18:45 |
| agroszer | +1 | 18:45 |
| ccomb | is there a way to sync versions found in z2, bb and grok, and call it ZTK 1.0? | 18:45 |
| ccomb | it should not be very different | 18:46 |
| hannosch | ccomb: you, me and Jan-Wijbrand can figure that out | 18:46 |
| ccomb | ok | 18:46 |
| ccomb | was python 2.4 already dropped for zope 2.12? | 18:47 |
| Charlie_X | fdrake: Python 2.4 will not be supported beyond ZTK 1.0 or 2010-12-31. Whichever comes earlier. | 18:47 |
| hannosch | yes. 2.12 only supports 2.6+ | 18:47 |
| fdrake | Charlie_X: That seems fair to me. | 18:47 |
| hannosch | ccomb: 2.12 is actually really incompatible with 2.4 on 64bit. there's hard breakage | 18:48 |
| fdrake | If 2010-12-31 comes first, it's unlikely I'll care about the ZTK. :-) | 18:48 |
| * Charlie_X notes that Python 2.5 is the next version for the chop | 18:48 | |
| fdrake | Python 2.5 I don't care about at all. :-) | 18:49 |
| cwarner | 2.4 is just extreme legacy in the grand scheme of things.. | 18:49 |
| hannosch | I think it makes sense to aim for two 2.x releases at the same time in general. once 2.7.1 comes out, we can talk about dropping 2.5 | 18:49 |
| regebro | Yeah, but Python 2.6 breaks so little, that 2.5 support is easy. | 18:49 |
| regebro | Unless we want to start doing __future__ imports. :) | 18:49 |
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| cwarner | it's like trying to support a car built in 1930 with fuel injection.. at some point it just gets silly | 18:49 |
| Charlie_X | regebro: I think we've done well avoiding the shiny new toys so far | 18:50 |
| Charlie_X | @decorator1 @decorator2 @decorator3 def simple(): return "hello world" | 18:50 |
| regebro | sure | 18:50 |
| ccomb | now it's much more interesting spending time to support 3.1 than to keep 2.4 | 18:51 |
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| ccomb | was that the last topic? | 18:51 |
| hannosch | we are long overtime :) | 18:52 |
| Charlie_X | ccomb: as noted by many Python developers - Python 3.x comes with a whole new set of warts and few compelling reasons as things stand. | 18:52 |
| Charlie_X | We went into extra time and had a silver goal to keep Python 2.4 for ZTK | 18:52 |
| Charlie_X | I'll post a summary to the list. | 18:52 |
| Charlie_X | Thank you for attention and same time next week. | 18:53 |
| hannosch | Charlie_X: cool. thx! | 18:53 |
| TresEquis | regebro: usnig with is the coolest new 2.6 feature | 18:53 |
| TresEquis | hannosch: I think the pytz pin has broken zope2's installability in a virtualenv | 18:54 |
| Vq | Charlie_X: what new warts? | 18:54 |
| * Vq <- somewhat python3 ignorant | 18:54 | |
| hannosch | TresEquis: is that because the earlier pytz versions aren't reachable from PyPI? | 18:54 |
| TresEquis | no | 18:55 |
| TresEquis | we get conflicting requirements | 18:55 |
| TresEquis | I'm trying now in a fresh virtualenv to double check | 18:56 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: which index are you using? | 18:56 |
| Charlie_X | Vq - string handling is still a problem | 18:56 |
| Charlie_X | Apparently that is a real problem in real application development. And with no performance improvements no one is very keen on what can be extensive refactoring. | 18:58 |
| lisppaste6 | TresEquis pasted "Zope2 install broken in virtualenv" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/98780 | 18:59 |
| TresEquis | hannosch: the toilet | 19:00 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: right. but that would "break" on mechanize 0.2 as well | 19:00 |
| Vq | Charlie_X: that is a new wart? | 19:00 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: automatically installing everything from the toilet is just not possible | 19:01 |
| mgedmin | huh? | 19:01 |
| TresEquis | mgedmin: PyPI | 19:01 |
| mgedmin | isn't it evil to explicitly require old versions of pytz? | 19:01 |
| * mgedmin was huh'ing at the pasted traceback | 19:01 | |
| hannosch | mgedmin: no. our software isn't compatible | 19:01 |
| mgedmin | isn't it evil of pytz to break backwards-compat? | 19:02 |
| TresEquis | mgedmin: Stuart added a BBB-incompatible change | 19:02 |
| TresEquis | which breaks Z2's DateTime | 19:02 |
| mgedmin | pytz carries timezone info. timezones change all the time. using old pytz is a bug | 19:02 |
| hannosch | we cannot support the latest on PyPi every single minute somebody releases a new package | 19:02 |
| TresEquis | hannosch: we should be *trying* to, though ;) | 19:02 |
| mgedmin | oh dear, what a mess :( | 19:03 |
| hannosch | in this case doing bin/easy_install pytz==2010b, bin/easy_install Zope2 should work | 19:03 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: sure. I don't know enough about timezones to fix any of this | 19:03 |
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| TresEquis | mkzopeinst then blows up on missing zope.password :( | 19:03 |
| hannosch | eh. then you got the wrong mkzopeinst I guess | 19:04 |
| hannosch | the one from Zope2 doesn't use zope.password | 19:04 |
| hannosch | scripts with the same name overwriting each other | 19:04 |
| TresEquis | yurg | 19:04 |
| TresEquis | I'm redoing the virtualenv with -i http://download.zope.org/Zope2/index/ | 19:05 |
| TresEquis | as noted in the docs: http://docs.zope.org/zope2/releases/2.12/INSTALL.html | 19:05 |
| hannosch | they do that silently without a warning. I think that's why buildout defaults to ignoring scripts | 19:05 |
| TresEquis | mgedmin: maybe you can help us lobby Stuart for a fix: https://bugs.launchpad.net/pytz/+bug/573023 | 19:07 |
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| seppo14 | has anyone else experienced problems with Transmit 4 on MacOS & ZOPE FTP access not uploading files the right way? | 19:16 |
| mgedmin | TresEquis, from those three bug reports I get the impression that somebody needs to sit down and think about what's the right thing here and which of the packages needs to be fixed | 19:20 |
| TresEquis | fixing it in DateTime would require an ugly straddle | 19:21 |
| TresEquis | unless we pinned pytz >= current | 19:21 |
| mgedmin | could you paste/link to the test failures in lp#572715? | 19:21 |
| mgedmin | incidentally, anybody using lucid? | 19:22 |
| TresEquis | not yet | 19:22 |
| TresEquis | planning to upgrade all the machines soon | 19:23 |
| * mgedmin is getting lots of /home/mg/.buildout/eggs/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.6.egg/setuptools/command/easy_install.py:173: UserWarning: Unbuilt egg for setuptools [unknown version] (/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages) | 19:23 | |
| mgedmin | which don't seem to break anything, other than my calm | 19:23 |
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| hannosch | if setuptools gives you a rather long warning text, it's usually unimportant. if you only get very short messages you should be careful. at least that's my experience :) | 19:24 |
| hannosch | there's an inverse helpfulness vs. criticality relationship | 19:25 |
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| mgedmin | ok, I can reproduce 8 DateTime failures with pytz2010h | 19:27 |
| TresEquis | I just added a recipe to the LP bug for reproducing it | 19:27 |
| LeoRochael | TresEquis: what do you mean by "would require an ugly straddle"? | 19:29 |
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| TresEquis | LeoRochael: if you try to make DateTime compatible with both older and newer pytz's, it has to "straddle" to API change | 19:29 |
| TresEquis | which is tough, because the spelling of the API didn't change at all, only the returned result | 19:30 |
| LeoRochael | TresEquis: ok, what would be the drawback of just fixing DateTime and pinning to newer versions? | 19:31 |
| LeoRochael | ... pinning pytz to newer versions... | 19:31 |
| TresEquis | LeoRochael: that might be the best way out | 19:32 |
| hannosch | I'm fine with that. document the API change and release a new feature release of DateTime | 19:33 |
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| mgedmin | TresEquis, was it this change that broke things: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~stub/pytz/devel/revision/224 ? | 19:33 |
| mgedmin | looks like not | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | r212 through r214 look like the ones | 19:36 |
| mgedmin | launchpad is sloooooow :( | 19:37 |
| hannosch | try to access bitbucket and you know what slowness / unavailability means ;) | 19:37 |
| mgedmin | what on earth? | 19:41 |
| fdrake | mgedmin: I've been using Lucid for a few days now. | 19:41 |
| mgedmin | so, DateTime('2002/5/2 8:00am US/Eastern')._micros differs by 4 hours across different pytz versions | 19:42 |
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| mgedmin | the 399-line DateTime._parse_args method should be taken out and shot | 19:43 |
| hannosch | well, the idea was always to drop DateTime as a whole | 19:44 |
| hannosch | it just never happens | 19:44 |
| mgedmin | waaah why is buildout not like virtualenv? | 19:45 |
| mgedmin | no bin/python, no bin/easy_install | 19:45 |
| hannosch | bin/easy_install would be against its design principle | 19:45 |
| mgedmin | which is bogus | 19:45 |
| mgedmin | I want my ad-hoc development tools without modifying the whole buildout | 19:46 |
| hannosch | then you wrap the buildout in a virtualenv | 19:46 |
| mgedmin | I could agree that things installed with bin/easy_install should *not* be available for import inside scripts produced by bin/buildout | 19:46 |
| LeoRochael | mgedmin: bin/python is easy enough, just use the "interpreter" param to the zc.recipe.egg part | 19:46 |
| mgedmin | incidentally, bug? versions = versions inside [test] sections, where it is ignored | 19:47 |
| mgedmin | anybody with a pristine checkout of DateTime want to fix that? | 19:47 |
| mgedmin | LeoRochael, easy, but painful -- edit file, re-run buildout, wait, remember to revert, etc. | 19:47 |
| hannosch | mgedmin: fixed in svn | 19:47 |
| mgedmin | LeoRochael, not to mention packages like DateTime which don't use zc.recipe.egg | 19:48 |
| seppo14 | i guess this has been asked before - but is there a way to parse XML data inside a web-python-script inside ZOPE2 without use of external methods? | 19:49 |
| LeoRochael | mgedmin: use your own .cfg that extends buildout.cfg | 19:49 |
| mgedmin | oh thank you for that ingenious suggestion | 19:49 |
| * mgedmin just irritated because of all this yak shaving, ignore his whines please | 19:50 | |
| hannosch | mgedmin: there's a bin/python now if you svn up | 19:50 |
| hannosch | and run buildout of course | 19:50 |
| TresEquis | seppo14: not really | 19:55 |
| seppo14 | TresEquis: thanks. damn. | 19:55 |
| mgedmin | _calcIndependentSecondEtc('US/Eastern', 3197779200 0.0) produces different results | 19:55 |
| mgedmin | incidentally, buildout rules | 19:55 |
| mgedmin | bin/py1 uses pytz2010b, bin/py2 uses pytz2010h | 19:56 |
| LeoRochael | mgedmin: that's a quick change of mind... | 19:56 |
| TresEquis | if you have a toehold on the filesystem, you can make the 'xml.dom.minidom' module importable in PythonScripts | 19:56 |
| mgedmin | no need to rerun buildout to switch versions, or have two directory trees | 19:56 |
| hannosch | mgedmin: see, it's not all bad :) | 19:56 |
| mgedmin | _tzoffset(tz, 0.0) returns different values | 19:57 |
| seppo14 | TresEquis: how that? | 19:57 |
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| LeoRochael | mgedmin: that's nice of course, though I'd still like to be able to define 'versions =' on separate zc.recipe.egg parts, just like I can define 'python =' | 19:57 |
| seppo14 | TresEquis: and i'm aware of that beeing a security "override"… but in my case this would be the easiest solution to my problem | 19:57 |
| LeoRochael | added a wishlist bug against zc.buildout, for that, but it's being duly ignored... | 19:57 |
| * mgedmin used eggs = DateTime {newline} pytz == 2010x | 19:57 | |
| TresEquis | seppo14: see http://svn.zope.org/repos/main/Zope/trunk/src/Products/PythonScripts/README.txt | 19:58 |
| seppo14 | thanks | 19:58 |
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| mgedmin | TresEquis, what's happening is that the bare "try:/except:" trips over and catches whatever error that's happening in info() | 19:59 |
| TresEquis | mgedmin: hmm? | 19:59 |
| TresEquis | in DateTIme? | 19:59 |
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| mgedmin | with new pytz version, DateTime.DateTime._tzoffset('timezone name', 0) always returns 0 because of some exception that's silently swallowed | 20:00 |
| mgedmin | I can't see that exception easily, DateTime *loves* nested bare except's | 20:00 |
| mgedmin | ValueError: Not naive datetime (tzinfo is already set) | 20:01 |
| TresEquis | hmm | 20:01 |
| mgedmin | in File "/home/mg/src/DateTime/src/DateTime/pytz_support.py", line 224, in info | 20:01 |
| TresEquis | Fixing DateTime to have less stupid exception handling would work | 20:01 |
| mgedmin | where it is calling offset = normalized_tzinfo.utcoffset(dt) | 20:01 |
| mgedmin | full traceback: http://pastie.org/945440 | 20:02 |
| mgedmin | oh, right, I don't have tags for pytz :/ | 20:03 |
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| mgedmin | TresEquis, http://pastie.org/945447 is a patch that makes the test suite pass | 20:07 |
| mgedmin | noooooooo! | 20:07 |
| mgedmin | why'd you have to run away? | 20:07 |
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| mgedmin | patch attached to https://bugs.launchpad.net/datetime/+bug/572715 | 20:11 |
| mgedmin | since I have no personal investment in this issue, I'll leave it here | 20:11 |
| LeoRochael | mgedmin: looks short enough.. | 20:13 |
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| Charlie_X | seppo14: you can use the allow_module and allow_class statements to allow access to things from PythonScripts. This can work well with simple modules and classes but quickly gets difficult to work with. | 20:23 |
| seppo14 | Charlie_X: thanks, I'll look into that | 20:23 |
| LeoRochael | anyone knows if mr.developer can work with bzr branches? | 20:24 |
| * Charlie_X senses déjà vu | 20:24 | |
| LeoRochael | Charlie_X: lemme guess, people want it, but nobody has bothered yet | 20:25 |
| Charlie_X | No, I saw the question earlier. I have no idea whether it does or not. I think Sidnei and Gary mentioned it on the ML a bit. | 20:25 |
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| sidnei | LeoRochael, Tres has a patch for it | 20:26 |
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| LeoRochael | great, he's just disconnected | 20:27 |
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| sidnei | LeoRochael, one sec | 20:29 |
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| sidnei | LeoRochael, http://github.com/tsesver/mr.developer/tree/ | 20:30 |
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| LeoRochael | sidnei: thx | 20:30 |
| sidnei | exciting times. a patch to add support for bzr hosted in git. :) | 20:30 |
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