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| planetzopebot | repoze.sphinx.autointerface 0.4 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/repoze.sphinx.autointerface/0.4 | 00:04 |
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| planetzopebot | collective.js.prettify 0.1 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/collective.js.prettify/0.1 | 03:34 |
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| planetzopebot | xdvtheme.inventions 1.0 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/xdvtheme.inventions/1.0 | 10:04 |
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| planetzopebot | collective.js.jqueryui 1.8.2.1 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/collective.js.jqueryui/1.8.2.1 | 16:04 |
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| _mup_ | Bug #610477 was filed: Asian languages not supported by text index <zope.index:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/610477> | 17:52 |
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| * Theuni1 stretches a bit | 17:59 | |
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| * LeoRochael looks up | 17:59 | |
| Theuni1 | it's 3:00 over here | 18:00 |
| Theuni1 | LeoRochael: hi | 18:00 |
| Theuni1 | anybody else around? | 18:00 |
| wiggy | semi | 18:00 |
| Theuni1 | Here's the agenda link: http://docs.zope.org/zopetoolkit/zope-dev/zope-dev-20100727.html | 18:01 |
| Theuni1 | wiggy: heh. | 18:01 |
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| Theuni1 | Anybody who was at EuroPython? | 18:01 |
| dataflake | hi | 18:01 |
| dataflake | not me | 18:01 |
| Theuni1 | hah! | 18:01 |
| Theuni1 | damn :/ | 18:01 |
| wiggy | was it a non-event perhaps? | 18:02 |
| wiggy | I haven't heard a single person talking about it | 18:02 |
| Theuni1 | I saw stuff going on on the mailing list | 18:02 |
| Theuni1 | I know Charlie was there. | 18:02 |
| * agroszer lurking | 18:03 | |
| Theuni1 | agroszer: lurking at EP or lurking in the channel? :) | 18:03 |
| agroszer | in the channel/at home | 18:03 |
| Theuni1 | Ok, maybe I should ask on the mailing list | 18:03 |
| planetzopebot | New Plone Usergroup in Charlottesville, VA kicks off July 29th (Plone News) http://plone.org/news/plone-cho-launch | 18:04 |
| agroszer | I haven't found slides or videos of EP yet | 18:04 |
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| Theuni1 | So, I guess no EP reports today, then. | 18:04 |
| Theuni1 | I'll send a message to the list asking for EP participants to tell what was going on there WRT to Zope. | 18:05 |
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| agroszer | Theuni1, regarding the agenda/ongoing issues: I think you can remove "Win egg builder" | 18:05 |
| wiggy | my guess would be 'people don't talk about zope' | 18:05 |
| Theuni1 | agroszer: you done with that? | 18:06 |
| agroszer | I think so | 18:06 |
| agroszer | gotta reshape the doc | 18:06 |
| Theuni1 | agroszer: I think it would be cool if you could send a summary about the win egg builder to the zope-dev list, then. | 18:06 |
| Theuni1 | wiggy: maybe. :) | 18:06 |
| agroszer | Theuni1, ok | 18:06 |
| Theuni1 | wiggy: but then again, there might be stuff that people heard that's interesting to those of us who didn't go there | 18:06 |
| wiggy | I'ld like to think so, otherwise EP has no reason to exist :) | 18:07 |
| Theuni1 | So, next topic then. | 18:07 |
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| Theuni1 | hehe | 18:08 |
| Theuni1 | wiggy: yeah. that's why i'd like to explicitly ask people who went there. | 18:08 |
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| Theuni1 | I'd like to repeat the experiment that didn't work out last week. | 18:08 |
| Theuni1 | My suggestion is to take some time now and review bugs and use the chance that other people are online here. | 18:08 |
| Theuni1 | Does that suggestion fly? | 18:09 |
| dataflake | Theuni1: I still don't see the point of trying to do bug day work during a short IRC chat | 18:09 |
| dataflake | looking at those bugs takes time, sandboxes, etc | 18:09 |
| dataflake | mind you, I have been doing some over the last 20 minutes | 18:10 |
| agroszer | OTOH there's not much else on the agenda | 18:10 |
| wiggy | I find it more interesting to look at old unsolved bugs than new unanswered bugs | 18:10 |
| wiggy | but mostly because all of mine tend to fall in that category | 18:10 |
| dataflake | wiggy: that's true as well. | 18:10 |
| dataflake | wiggy: maybe you should solve them then :-P | 18:10 |
| Theuni1 | dataflake: I didn't think about that as bug day work. | 18:10 |
| wiggy | if I could I would have | 18:10 |
| Theuni1 | Over time I'd like to see us improve on the responsiveness to new bugs. | 18:11 |
| Theuni1 | Currently there's a good chance that bugs go unnoticed for a long time although they might be critical. | 18:11 |
| dataflake | Theuni1: I do. It's just not something you can rush in 10 minutes while you're really on here to partake in a short chat. | 18:11 |
| wiggy | Theuni1: I'm not convinced responsiveness is the important thing | 18:11 |
| wiggy | my experience is that I file a bug, it gets one or two comments and is then ignored forever | 18:11 |
| wiggy | so responsiveness initially was fine, but the result is still bad | 18:12 |
| dataflake | Theuni1: You can't force responsiveness by forcing chat participants to do that work during these chats | 18:12 |
| Theuni1 | dataflake: I'm not forcing anyway ... ;) | 18:12 |
| Theuni1 | wiggy: Hmm. My perspective is that I'm happy if someone says "yeah its a bug, we'll get to it at some point" opposed to *crickets* | 18:12 |
| wiggy | Theuni1: they're orthogonal perhaps | 18:13 |
| Theuni1 | My point. :) | 18:13 |
| wiggy | Theuni1: but I don't see the point in focusing on initial responsiveness and still not getting anything fixed | 18:13 |
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| dataflake | Well, the outcome won't be changed. Bugs will still sit around forever if no one cares for them or has the knowledge to handle them. | 18:13 |
| dataflake | Marking them something other than "New" is misleading, it's just window dressing. | 18:14 |
| Theuni1 | dataflake: I see the bug days (the upcoming one has many people signed up) as a way to get bugs solved. | 18:14 |
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| Theuni1 | dataflake: I don't think so. I think we do lack on the communications level. | 18:14 |
| dataflake | Theuni1: Yes, so do I. But whether they are marked "New" or not has no bearing whatsoever on a bug day's outcome. | 18:14 |
| Theuni1 | it's not about the bug day's outcome | 18:15 |
| Theuni1 | It's about the experience for those who report bugs. | 18:15 |
| wiggy | Theuni1: something like https://bugs.launchpad.net/z3c.form/+bug/580839 is typical in my experience | 18:15 |
| _mup_ | Bug #580839: z3c.form.interfaces.IGroupForm unused <z3c.form:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/580839> | 18:15 |
| Theuni1 | When I report bugs to a project and I see that someone reviewed it and put it in as "yeah its a bug" then I pretty much feel happy even if it takes a while. | 18:15 |
| * Theuni1 looks at the bug | 18:15 | |
| wiggy | Theuni1: I don't expect anyone to ever respond to it based on previous experience | 18:15 |
| dataflake | To provide a better experience we need people other than pure developers providing such a better "experience". | 18:16 |
| wiggy | or for the respond-but-don't-fix: https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope2/+bug/430662 | 18:16 |
| _mup_ | Bug #430662: tal:omit-tag should be processed before tal:attributes <grok:New> <zope.tal:New> <Zope 2:Confirmed> <Zope 3:Won't Fix> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/430662> | 18:16 |
| Theuni1 | wiggy: the first one is a typical cricket thing (not 5 years old already, though) | 18:17 |
| Theuni1 | dataflake: hmm. why? | 18:17 |
| dataflake | wiggy: From my own experience there are many bugs that no one wants to touch for fear they will be breaking a lot of sites that implicitly or explicitly expect the old behavior. | 18:17 |
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| dataflake | Theuni1: You cannot man the customer service hotline with the pure developer. The customer will never get a good experience. You need some sweet talkers who will say whatever the customer wants to hear. | 18:18 |
| wiggy | (and before the grok team says it does much better: here is a trivial grok cricket: https://bugs.launchpad.net/grok/+bug/556383 ) | 18:18 |
| _mup_ | Bug #556383: MultiAdapter example in grokcore.component can not work <grok:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/556383> | 18:18 |
| Theuni1 | dataflake: Hmm. But our customers in that sense are developers again. | 18:18 |
| wiggy | dataflake: I get the feeling there are large parts of zope.* that nobody wants to touch, indeed | 18:18 |
| wiggy | dataflake: hence the complete lack of progress on indexing and pagetemplates for example | 18:19 |
| dataflake | I'm not saying "we need a user-facing person" for this. I'm just saying "you cannot expect the developers to provide a nice experience, that's not the kind of person they are". | 18:19 |
| Theuni1 | dataflake: i think the "nice experience" of developer-to-developer is different ;) | 18:19 |
| Theuni1 | wiggy: i guess that overlaps with the problems of bloat and old code that people are scared of. | 18:19 |
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| LeoRochael | Maybe this just comes down to prioritization of the work on bug days: new issues, then issues that haven't been touched in a while | 18:20 |
| dataflake | Theuni1: I as a developer who looks at bugs see no point in acting immediately just so someone else gets the impression "someone cares about my bug". I'll get to it when I have time and if I can and want to fix it. | 18:20 |
| Theuni1 | E.g. there's also parts of the code that I got responded to with "Don't rename that variable within zope.interface to make it more readable, it might break although we have tests" | 18:20 |
| wiggy | what I think it is is that there is no zope product anyone is proud of and wants to work on | 18:21 |
| wiggy | everyone is building customer projects and only works on code directly related to that | 18:21 |
| Theuni1 | dataflake: if i report a bug, i like the first step of "yeah its a bug" versus "dude, you're using it wrong" | 18:21 |
| dataflake | wiggy: That's human nature, isn't it? | 18:21 |
| wiggy | dataflake: it is | 18:21 |
| wiggy | I think the point I'm trying to make is that unless that is somehow changed I don't expect to see this bug situation improving | 18:21 |
| dataflake | Theuni1: I'm not proviing any of these options, I just get to it later if I'm inclined ;-) | 18:22 |
| agroszer | Theuni1, that can be a big help for the start | 18:22 |
| wiggy | the grok team appeared to try and be the nice responsive bug fixing group | 18:22 |
| Theuni1 | I closed a bug recently where the fix was out at the time of reporting already. Took me 5 minutes to find this and respond appropriately but the bug sat around for years. | 18:22 |
| wiggy | but lately they've become just like the rest of zope :) | 18:22 |
| Theuni1 | heh | 18:22 |
| Theuni1 | wiggy: which part needs changing? | 18:23 |
| Theuni1 | the "be proud of and want to work on it" or the "only works on code directly related to customer projects" | 18:23 |
| wiggy | Theuni1: the part where there is no one product developers are proud of and want to work on for the product itself | 18:23 |
| Theuni1 | ack | 18:24 |
| wiggy | Theuni1: people need to love working on zope for it, instead of using little zope bits in other things | 18:24 |
| Theuni1 | right | 18:24 |
| Theuni1 | that touches the issue of brand bashing ;) | 18:24 |
| wiggy | developers use zope as a grab-bag of tools and don't see it as a product | 18:24 |
| wiggy | Theuni1: it's certainly related | 18:25 |
| Theuni1 | right. that would require making each small tool into a product that people care for | 18:25 |
| Theuni1 | which is hard and creates many small focal points | 18:25 |
| Theuni1 | i think the ZTK has the chance of improving that | 18:25 |
| wiggy | and that's where we are now discovering most products have nobody caring about them | 18:25 |
| LeoRochael | For many of the zope packages out there, there is not even enough functionality for people to think of as a product to care for | 18:26 |
| Theuni1 | or at least we need a few larger coherent sets of packages so the number of focal points remains manageable | 18:26 |
| wiggy | zope.pagetemplates will never be improved because people are switching to chameleon/jinja2 for example | 18:26 |
| LeoRochael | many of them were created to spin things off of other things | 18:26 |
| wiggy | that's fine, but at some point we need to say 'this is dead, use this other thing' | 18:26 |
| wiggy | instead of pretend that everything is supported | 18:26 |
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| baijum | wiggy: something like http://attic.apache.org/ ? | 18:27 |
| wiggy | baijum: yes | 18:27 |
| baijum | our list will be very large ;) | 18:28 |
| wiggy | I think that is ok | 18:28 |
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| wiggy | I'ld rather have a small number of good supported bits | 18:28 |
| wiggy | than a huge library of unsupported things | 18:28 |
| Theuni1 | right | 18:29 |
| Theuni1 | Time's almost up. So that was kinda interesting. I'll give up with trying to bug review during the meetings then. | 18:29 |
| Theuni1 | I won't be able to summarize all of this, but I'll show that we had some discussion here and link to it. | 18:29 |
| LeoRochael | Theuni1: thanks for pushing this | 18:30 |
| Theuni1 | agroszer: you asked for the summit at some point. Are you planning to come? | 18:30 |
| Theuni1 | LeoRochael: not much pushing right now ;) | 18:30 |
| agroszer | Theuni1, I'm not sure yet | 18:31 |
| Theuni1 | k | 18:32 |
| Theuni1 | If anyone else wants to come, there's more information out now: | 18:33 |
| Theuni1 | http://wiki.zope.org/ztk/ZopeSummit2010 | 18:33 |
| agroszer | emmm, you should have started with that ;-) | 18:33 |
| Theuni1 | didn't have it when i started ;) | 18:33 |
| * Theuni1 goes back to hardware pr0n | 18:34 | |
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| kleist | does svn.zope.org have something similar to http://dev.plone.org/plone/browser ? | 18:50 |
| kleist | ... that is, code browsing in the browser | 18:50 |
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| agroszer | kleist, http://zope3.pov.lt/trac/browser | 18:54 |
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| kleist | agroszer, thanks!!! | 19:42 |
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| ignas | is there a way to have products have their own evolution/upgrade scripts | 20:12 |
| ignas | and run them on zope startup if the version of the product changes? | 20:13 |
| ignas | in Zope2 | 20:13 |
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| sm | ignas: warning, possibly obsolete info: | 20:44 |
| ignas | will do :) | 20:44 |
| sm | you could check in your product's __init__.py . I think you'd have to save your product's version in a property in the zodb too | 20:44 |
| sm | if the last-saved version is different from current version... do your upgrade thing | 20:45 |
| ignas | so no Zope provided machinery? I thought I have seen something that was doing it... | 20:45 |
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| sm | there are things... "migration".. ? worth a search. I didn't think they would automatically run, but maube | 20:45 |
| sm | maybe | 20:45 |
| ignas | or was it plone specific | 20:45 |
| sm | quite possible | 20:45 |
| sm | you can write something simple but maintain it yourself.. or find and learn the prexisting tool... and maintain it yourself ? :) | 20:47 |
| sm | perhaps someone here knows more | 20:47 |
| ignas | I am in the middle of writing it, just got the idea that "there must be a better way" | 20:48 |
| ignas | and decided to check | 20:48 |
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| mgedmin | newish zopes post events on startup, don't they? | 20:50 |
| mgedmin | I should rephrase that as a question | 20:50 |
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| John | uh | 23:32 |
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| John | damn netsplits | 23:32 |
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| ccomb | John: yes you can make a web site with just zope | 23:38 |
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| cmleao | hi people! | 23:44 |
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| John | ccomb, really? | 23:53 |
| John | So... erm... do you just write a .py file which echos HTML (like i currently do with Apache and PHP | 23:53 |
| John | ) | 23:53 |
| ccomb | John: if you do old-style zope2 dev, you can create ZPT templates and Python scripts in the admin interface | 23:55 |
| cmleao | how can I do to add write permission in a directory through FTP in zope 2.9 ? | 23:55 |
| John | ccomb, do you mind if I PM you directly? I'll try not to bore you and i'll leave in 10 minutes. Promise :P | 23:56 |
| ccomb | John: ok | 23:56 |
| John | Thanks man :] | 23:56 |
| John | wait, erm, that didn't work | 23:57 |
| John | i've pm'd you, but the zope IRC webclient didn't handle it very well | 23:57 |
| cmleao | why I receive 553 error when put file through FTP ? | 23:58 |
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