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| zagy | moin | 08:42 |
|---|---|---|
| Damascene | oh man | 09:10 |
| Damascene | if i see zagy speak, i know im' in trouble. | 09:10 |
| zagy | ha ha | 09:11 |
| zagy | go to bed man! | 09:11 |
| Damascene | you remembered! hehe | 09:12 |
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| MacYET_ | z3con | 12:30 |
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| MacYET | the french world is getting alive | 13:36 |
| regebro | Wi is aalweez alive. | 13:39 |
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| MacYET | can i configure a utility under multiple names? | 16:15 |
| Theuni | any reason you assume that you can't? | 16:22 |
| MacYET | i want a mass registration :) | 16:23 |
| srichter | yes you can, but there is nothing to help you do this efficiently | 16:25 |
| srichter | you would have to write your own directive | 16:25 |
| srichter | (which is not hard btw) | 16:26 |
| srichter | MacYET: why would you want to register so many utilities? | 16:26 |
| srichter | i.e. something seems fishy here :-) | 16:26 |
| MacYET | in txng every converter is a utility | 16:26 |
| MacYET | so i register them as named utilities | 16:26 |
| MacYET | but one converter can handle multiple mimetypes | 16:26 |
| MacYET | wrong way? | 16:27 |
| srichter | oh, I see | 16:27 |
| srichter | let me think | 16:27 |
| srichter | what about adapters? | 16:27 |
| MacYET | overkill | 16:27 |
| MacYET | :-O=) | 16:27 |
| MacYET | i must have a registry mimetype -> converter somewhere | 16:28 |
| srichter | ok, but then you could save yourself from many utilities | 16:28 |
| MacYET | i am just moving the problem around :) | 16:28 |
| Theuni | don't we have some generic registry support around? | 16:28 |
| srichter | right, utilities is not a bad approach, but just by the look of "mimetype -> converter" it smells like an adapter | 16:29 |
| srichter | :-) | 16:29 |
| MacYET | utilites are fine | 16:29 |
| srichter | Theuni: no, all registries have been carefully removed | 16:29 |
| MacYET | registries suck | 16:29 |
| * Theuni shrugs | 16:29 | |
| srichter | exactely | 16:29 |
| srichter | all registries can be implemented using utilities | 16:29 |
| srichter | this decision was made ages ago | 16:29 |
| srichter | MacYET: do you have mimetype objects? | 16:30 |
| MacYET | mimetype objects? | 16:30 |
| MacYET | i have content with some mimetype | 16:31 |
| MacYET | that I look up an utility with the correspodning converter interface *and* mimetpye et le voila: i have the converter | 16:31 |
| MacYET | works fine | 16:31 |
| srichter | mmh, maybe named adapters are better, conceptually | 16:31 |
| MacYET | that's beyond my today | 16:32 |
| srichter | IConverter(content, name="application/x-msoffice") | 16:32 |
| MacYET | s horizon | 16:32 |
| srichter | this is very similar to the named utility approach, btw | 16:33 |
| srichter | the nice thing is that you can register the adapter for classes | 16:33 |
| MacYET | just have to read before...it's fine for me now | 16:34 |
| MacYET | just trying things out.. | 16:34 |
| srichter | ok | 16:34 |
| faassen | I'm trying the widget for the schema LIst thing. | 16:41 |
| faassen | in Zope X3.0 the behavior is seriously broken. | 16:41 |
| faassen | do you know whether this got fixes later on? | 16:41 |
| faassen | it's broken in the sense that if you press 'add text' without filling in any text, you get a weird output which displays somekind of HTML list, and then when you go back to the page, all your previous entries have disappeared. | 16:42 |
| srichter | I am not sure, though some of those type of widgets got some work done on them | 16:55 |
| faassen | anyway, I guess I'll make my own widget, it can be simpler. | 16:55 |
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| regebro | I've just beebn looking at the add form directive for X3.0, since it seems like it's permission setting is ignored in Five. | 18:41 |
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| regebro | and...it looks ignored in Zope3 too. If that is the case, then should it be like that, and if so, why? | 18:41 |
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| srichter | regebro: really? I am pretty sure it is not :-) | 18:50 |
| srichter | ...but maybe it is | 18:50 |
| regebro | srichter, Well, I haven't really *tried* it, I just can't see that it is handled anywhere. Maybe the idea is to get the permission somewhere else? | 18:51 |
| regebro | Or to only protect the actual adding (which I don't think is a good idea). | 18:51 |
| srichter | mmh, I can't remember | 18:51 |
| regebro | Or, I just didn't see it.. | 18:52 |
| bradb | the addform permission works fine for me. | 18:52 |
| srichter | no, the perm is applied | 18:52 |
| srichter | see AddViewFactory | 18:52 |
| srichter | see the checker that gets created there? | 18:52 |
| srichter | zope.app.form.browser.add | 18:53 |
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| regebro | srichter, ah, the defineChecker thing, ok.... Great. So, since I can't protect things in Five, this is a Five bug. Great! Thanks! | 19:24 |
| srichter | yes | 19:28 |
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| mexiKON | srichter, i wonder, would x-zope-principal in the response header be a security risk since it would appear in what is sent to the browser... | 20:47 |
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| MacYET | re | 21:22 |
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| * MacYET curses | 21:45 | |
| MacYET | +:r he | 21:47 |
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| MacYET | vim s:w | 21:58 |
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| MacYET | :wq | 22:37 |
| srichter | mexiKON: I don't think so | 22:41 |
| mexiKON | srichter, i like wsgi, and passing the application object various streams through request headers is fine, i think | 22:42 |
| mexiKON | however, i'm not sure whether the reverse way is good | 22:42 |
| mexiKON | i feel like wsgi should include a logging api | 22:42 |
| mexiKON | have something like a "logging stream" | 22:42 |
| srichter | that's not good enough | 22:43 |
| mexiKON | and pass that to the application in the request, like the error stream | 22:43 |
| mexiKON | why not? | 22:43 |
| srichter | because often the logging framework decides based on specially crafted objects which log to write to | 22:43 |
| srichter | this is true for Python's logging and for twisted's logging | 22:44 |
| srichter | (and was true for ZServer's) | 22:44 |
| mexiKON | ok, fair enough | 22:46 |
| srichter | here is my take | 22:46 |
| mexiKON | i'm just guessing wildly here. all i know is that i have a bad feeling about passing sensible data through the response | 22:46 |
| srichter | it is not sensible | 22:46 |
| srichter | noone can do anything with the principal id | 22:46 |
| srichter | since it is not even necessarily the login name | 22:47 |
| srichter | (depends on the adapter) | 22:47 |
| mexiKON | it's still application data | 22:47 |
| mexiKON | it might reveal sensible data... how do we know this now? | 22:48 |
| srichter | if someone is worried about security, they use HTTPS, in which case it is encrypted and only returned to the browser | 22:48 |
| srichter | how will it reveal sensible data? | 22:48 |
| mexiKON | maybe principal ids *are* sensible in some systems | 22:48 |
| mexiKON | but anyway | 22:48 |
| srichter | if you really do not want to return anything, make a null adapter that returns no message | 22:48 |
| srichter | then change the adapter to not return the id | 22:49 |
| mexiKON | ah, a knob | 22:49 |
| srichter | but a full name or nothing | 22:49 |
| mexiKON | we need a knob | 22:49 |
| srichter | there is one | 22:49 |
| mexiKON | can we have a knob to turn it off completely? | 22:49 |
| srichter | yeah, create an adapter that always returns '' | 22:49 |
| srichter | (as in empty string) | 22:50 |
| mexiKON | k | 22:50 |
| BjornT | srichter: i'd assume that even if you don't want the principal name in the response, you'd still want it to show up in the logs. is there a way to do that? | 22:51 |
| srichter | mexiKON: see revision 30065 | 22:52 |
| srichter | BjornT: nope | 22:52 |
| srichter | not with WSGI | 22:52 |
| MacYET | x | 22:55 |
| BjornT | srichter: what was the problem with letting zope.app handle the logging, as you said you would do? | 22:56 |
| srichter | BjornT: it felt wrong :-) | 22:56 |
| srichter | BjornT: and I would have needed a bunch of proprietary WSGI extensions | 22:56 |
| srichter | such as receiving a function that knows about the bytes sent in the response, the return status, etc., etc. | 22:57 |
| BjornT | srichter: it feels really wrong adding some useless headers to the response.... | 22:57 |
| srichter | and really, the access log is the responsibility of the server, not the app | 22:57 |
| srichter | I am much happier with what I have now | 22:58 |
| srichter | BjornT: I disagree and it is common practice | 22:58 |
| srichter | there are so many X-Name headers sent, especially in E-mails, that it is not even funny | 22:58 |
| BjornT | can you give some examples? | 22:58 |
| srichter | yes, hold on | 22:59 |
| mexiKON | X-Powered-By: Zope | 22:59 |
| srichter | exactely! | 22:59 |
| mexiKON | MacYET, trying to hook up vi as your IRC client? | 22:59 |
| srichter | that was the one I was looking for | 22:59 |
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| mexiKON | it's stupid and it should go | 22:59 |
| MacYET | :-) | 22:59 |
| srichter | but it is an example of how X-name headers are used | 23:00 |
| BjornT | exactly, it shouldn't be there, or at least be optional. it shouldn't change any functionality by removing such headers | 23:00 |
| MacYET | utilities don't have arguments in the constructor? | 23:00 |
| srichter | look, if you want to make your code ultra-secure and still have the name in the logs, just write your own twisted.iweb.IResponse object that removes the header before outputting it | 23:01 |
| srichter | MacYET: they can, if you instantiate them yourself in Python and use "component" in ZCML | 23:01 |
| MacYET | that's not what i want :-) | 23:01 |
| srichter | MacYET: If you use "factory" in the ZCML, they cannot have arguments, but the factory could be a function instantiating the class using arguments | 23:01 |
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| ChrisW | hey hey happy people :-) | 23:02 |
| MacYET | index instances have a set of splitter preferecnes. inside the index() method i want to create a splitter object with these preferences...what's the right pattern? | 23:02 |
| MacYET | mr withers | 23:02 |
| ChrisW | can Zope 3's ZPT be used outside of Zope? | 23:02 |
| srichter | ChrisW: yes | 23:03 |
| ChrisW | If so, what package do I need and how do I use it? | 23:03 |
| MacYET | yes | 23:03 |
| ChrisW | (I need to do normal cgi's, yuck :-S) | 23:03 |
| MacYET | tal,pagetemplate | 23:03 |
| MacYET | start with pagetemplate and see what imports are missing | 23:03 |
| MacYET | :) | 23:03 |
| srichter | I think you need i18nmessage and tales as well | 23:03 |
| ChrisW | i18nmessage? | 23:03 |
| ChrisW | is ther no way to turn that off? | 23:03 |
| srichter | ChrisW: there is also a way of using zpkcgtools to create a ZPT release | 23:03 |
| srichter | it lists all dependencies | 23:04 |
| srichter | ChrisW: no | 23:04 |
| ChrisW | srichter: any ideas hwo to do that? | 23:04 |
| srichter | ChrisW: I used to know, but not anymore :-) | 23:04 |
| srichter | ask Fred | 23:04 |
| ChrisW | damn | 23:04 |
| ChrisW | timescales too short :-S | 23:04 |
| srichter | see ZOPE3/releases/ZPT | 23:04 |
| ChrisW | okie dokie | 23:04 |
| srichter | which gives you at least the deps | 23:04 |
| ChrisW | what should I go for? trunk or a branch? | 23:05 |
| srichter | branch | 23:05 |
| srichter | not much has happened | 23:05 |
| mexiKON | ChrisW, yes, you need the i18n message stuff. you don't need to use i18n, though | 23:05 |
| ChrisW | which branch? | 23:05 |
| BjornT | srichter: that's an ugly solution just to be able to remove some (for the client) useless header. don't care *that* much about it, though..., just seem like the wrong way to do it | 23:05 |
| ChrisW | or is there a specific tag? | 23:05 |
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| ChrisW | mexiKON = Phil in disguise? | 23:06 |
| mexiKON | ChrisW, you can use the ZopeX3-3.0 branch | 23:06 |
| mexiKON | yes | 23:06 |
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| ChrisW | heh | 23:06 |
| ChrisW | you guys decided about codespeak for DCOracle2 yet? | 23:06 |
| srichter | BjornT: complain to the WSGI guys for not providing a way to send info back to the server | 23:06 |
| ChrisW | is there a tag I can use that will be constant for years? | 23:06 |
| ChrisW | http://svn.zope.org/Zope3/tags/ZopeX3-3.0.0/? | 23:07 |
| srichter | yep | 23:07 |
| srichter | this one will be good for a long time | 23:07 |
| ChrisW | nope, that doesn't have the ZPT thing in releases :-( | 23:07 |
| ChrisW | I might just go for http://svn.zope.org/Zope3/trunk/releases/ZPT/?rev=30065 | 23:08 |
| ChrisW | what do I do with those .cfg files to get something useful? | 23:08 |
| ChrisW | and what version fo python should I be using? | 23:08 |
| BjornT | srichter: well, they'd probly say to define a custom extension ;-) | 23:08 |
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| srichter | BjornT: but that's not practical, as the point of WSGI is to play nice with all existing servers | 23:10 |
| srichter | ChrisW: well, you can see what's needed | 23:10 |
| srichter | they are used to build the ZPT release, though I do not know how | 23:11 |
| ChrisW | yeah, btu what machinery should I use to do something automatic with those config files? | 23:11 |
| srichter | ChrisW: this might help, though it is for Zope 3, not ZPT: http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/MakingARelease | 23:11 |
| ChrisW | thanks, I'll take a look | 23:12 |
| philiKON | ChrisW, basically, you point zpkgtools to a release config and you end up with a tarball containing a setup.py and all dependencies | 23:12 |
| philiKON | srichter, i don't think the response header thing is very extensible either. I mean, what if i want other information to appear in the log? | 23:13 |
| BjornT | srichter: will the logging work no matter which server you plug in via WSGI? | 23:13 |
| philiKON | ideally, we should have a CustomLog directive like apache has | 23:13 |
| MacYET | n8 | 23:13 |
| srichter | philiKON: but I am only getting an access log going | 23:13 |
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| srichter | you can still do other logging on the app side | 23:13 |
| srichter | BjornT: if the server does it, sure | 23:13 |
| srichter | BjornT: Twisted is responsible for logging, I just provide an observer | 23:14 |
| srichter | that knows how to write to our access logs | 23:14 |
| philiKON | aha | 23:14 |
| philiKON | this is what i just thought about | 23:14 |
| philiKON | having the app provide some object that the server can write its log to | 23:15 |
| philiKON | so, logging stays configurable on the app side | 23:15 |
| srichter | but this is far too intrusive | 23:16 |
| srichter | currently nothing in twisted.web2 had to be changed to get this working | 23:16 |
| philiKON | well, right now, for every server you need a compatability layer anyway | 23:16 |
| srichter | how so? | 23:16 |
| philiKON | because no server supports wsgi out of the box | 23:16 |
| srichter | twisted.web2 does | 23:17 |
| philiKON | only the new ones, yes | 23:17 |
| philiKON | so, twisted.web2 could support a logging api | 23:17 |
| philiKON | if the logging api were part of wsgi | 23:17 |
| srichter | yep, but I am not going to rely on an extension that is not approved nor have I thought about a good way of doing it | 23:18 |
| srichter | logging frameworks behave very differently on a low level | 23:18 |
| srichter | and you would have to agree on one way of doing it | 23:18 |
| srichter | also, I might want to log info only the server has that the server author might consider private and does not want to expose | 23:19 |
| srichter | (the bytes written is one big example here) | 23:19 |
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| BjornT | srichter: now you assume that every WSGI server provides support for plugging into the logging as you do it now. if the don't, you're screwed, just like with an wsgi extension | 23:20 |
| srichter | nope, all I say is that those other servers probably just have no means of getting to the user info | 23:21 |
| srichter | that is a much weaker assertion than the other suggested ones | 23:21 |
| philiKON | you said they all behave differently on the low level... that's ok, as long as there can be a high level interface | 23:21 |
| BjornT | srichter: exactly my point! the same with the wsgi extension, if it doesn't exist you simple don't use it | 23:21 |
| philiKON | i mean, after all, that's what wsgi is all about | 23:21 |
| srichter | BjornT: but it is much, much heavier to do it via WSGI at this point | 23:22 |
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| philiKON | my idea is: have the server write to a logging component which comes from the app and is configured through the app; it can decide what do log and what not to log | 23:22 |
| srichter | you would have to provide icky callback functions via the wsgi namespace in the environment | 23:23 |
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| srichter | philiKON: but that's the point; WSGI does not allow us to send info to the app server | 23:23 |
| srichter | other than over soem icky wsgi callback function | 23:24 |
| srichter | something like: | 23:24 |
| philiKON | so maybe that needs to be changed in wsgi | 23:24 |
| BjornT | srichter: but it's also a much cleaner solution when working with wsgi... | 23:24 |
| srichter | I disagree | 23:24 |
| srichter | it goes against anything WSGI says | 23:24 |
| srichter | WSGI specifically points out that it does not want to deal with complicated objects | 23:25 |
| srichter | this would exactely introduce such a complicated object | 23:25 |
| srichter | have you read the WSGI specs? | 23:25 |
| philiKON | the error stream and input streams are objects and they're not complicated | 23:25 |
| philiKON | yes | 23:25 |
| philiKON | those stream objects have a few required methods | 23:25 |
| BjornT | srichter: how so? according to the wsgi guys it should be quite common to add extensions to it | 23:25 |
| srichter | right, but logging cannot be a simple stream | 23:25 |
| srichter | I pointed this out several times | 23:25 |
| philiKON | true. but the python logging api, for example, has a very simple api and still can be used for quite complex things | 23:26 |
| srichter | the Python logging API is very, very complex | 23:27 |
| srichter | actually, several people have complained about it | 23:27 |
| srichter | including the Twisted guys | 23:27 |
| philiKON | i must be confusing this with zlog then | 23:27 |
| philiKON | i'll brianstorm a little more about this issue | 23:27 |
| philiKON | g'night | 23:28 |
| srichter | bye | 23:29 |
| srichter | btw, the reason I had to think about this feature is that other people before me messed it up | 23:31 |
| srichter | I am providing something that I think is not intrusive, keeps component boundaries and does not create miscellaneous dependencies among packages. | 23:32 |
| srichter | anyone should feel free to implement something better | 23:32 |
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| BjornT | it's intrusive in that way that you send the client a useless header. it also depends on the server knowing what to do with the header (or to provide a way of plugging into the logging) | 23:34 |
| srichter | for (1): it is done all the time | 23:35 |
| srichter | for (2): Any solution I will come up with will have this requirement | 23:35 |
| BjornT | (1): ok, let's remove x-powered-by, doesn't change any functionality | 23:36 |
| BjornT | (2): so, there's no reason not solving it in a cleaner way | 23:36 |
| srichter | I have looked into (a) writing logs on the app side, (2) sending info via WSGI callbacks to the server and (c) sending a response header | 23:37 |
| srichter | (a) this is just not the right palce and a lot of indo would need to be sent from the server, which convinced me it is the wrong place | 23:37 |
| BjornT | anyways, i'll think about it a bit more. you should send a mail to the list about this before you merge | 23:38 |
| srichter | (b) this is a lot of work and actually when looking at it from the server side seems very intrusive | 23:38 |
| srichter | (c) I have to make only a slight modification to the app and none to the server(!) | 23:38 |
| srichter | feel free to send a mail to the list | 23:39 |
| srichter | by the time I merge this, I will have forgotten it (probably) | 23:39 |
| BjornT | ok, just make sure you send a mail before you merge | 23:44 |
| srichter | I always do this; this change will be somewhat disruptive | 23:45 |
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| BjornT | srichter: btw, where's that log observer you talked about located? | 23:52 |
| srichter | not checked in yet | 23:52 |
| srichter | I still ahve to write tests | 23:52 |
| srichter | hold on, I check it in | 23:52 |
| BjornT | ok, thanks. i want to see how it looks like | 23:53 |
| srichter | uuh, it might fail though :-) | 23:54 |
| srichter | since I have made some changes to Twisted's server; | 23:54 |
| srichter | so that I can collect all information | 23:55 |
| srichter | I guess we should switch to a vendor import | 23:55 |
| srichter | do you know how to do this? | 23:55 |
| BjornT | i thought one of your argument was that you *didn't* have to change anything in the server? | 23:57 |
| BjornT | no, sorry, don't know how to do that | 23:57 |
| srichter | yeah, it is due to the fact that twisted.web2 is not done | 23:57 |
| srichter | but this has nothing to do with my argument | 23:58 |
| BjornT | so this would be a good time adding some logging extension to it... | 23:58 |
| srichter | basically, from the request I could not get to the response inside twisted | 23:58 |
| srichter | it has its logging stuff already setup | 23:58 |
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