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| yota | srichter: i can't logging on zope3 site for change wiki page | 00:53 |
|---|---|---|
| yota | s/logging/log in | 00:53 |
| srichter | yota: can you send Jim an E-mail to make you a poweruser? | 00:57 |
| yota | Oki, I make a reply for your email with Jim on cc | 00:59 |
| yota | it's strange, I can log in on frontpage (ie zope.org) , but not in wiki (zope.org/DevHome/Wikis ....) | 01:00 |
| srichter | mmh, you should be able to log in, but not update | 01:01 |
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| yota | and if I log in on zope.org (it"s ok) and I go to wiki, I'm not logged in | 01:03 |
| yota | zope.org is buggy | 01:03 |
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| bob2 | I wish all the z3lab demos didn't require flash : | 06:58 |
| bob2 | | | 06:58 |
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| kedai | hi. bin/runzope barfed this tb: AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'ILogoutSupported' | 07:56 |
| kedai | zope3-c1 | 07:57 |
| kedai | zope3-c2 that is | 07:57 |
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| zagy | moin | 08:57 |
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| VladDrac | hmm this is alot better | 17:15 |
| VladDrac | (&*(*& freenode | 17:15 |
| * VladDrac 's receiving requests with a specific encoding (which is some sort of rpc, basically, on top of standard HTTP) | 17:16 | |
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| VladDrac | I wonder if the best way is to somehow integrate some new Request publishing, or to adapt the request/response object | 17:16 |
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| srichter | VladDrac: ehat's your use case? | 17:17 |
| * VladDrac 's receiving requests with a specific encoding (which is some sort of rpc, basically, on top of standard HTTP) | 17:17 | |
| VladDrac | to be more specific, it's AMF | 17:17 |
| srichter | Implement a new request derived from HTTPRequest | 17:18 |
| srichter | just follow Jim Washington's JSON server code | 17:18 |
| VladDrac | http://www.simonf.com/flap/ <- AMF / python | 17:18 |
| VladDrac | srichter: thanks, that's just what I need to know :) | 17:18 |
| VladDrac | is this JSON code already in Zope3? | 17:18 |
| srichter | no, but Jim has released it as an add-on package | 17:19 |
| VladDrac | (AMF in Zope3 would actually be pretty cool, if you can live with the concept of Flash gui's :) | 17:19 |
| srichter | JSON is too specific to make it into the Zope 3 core I think | 17:19 |
| VladDrac | ok. url? Or UTFG? | 17:19 |
| VladDrac | (use the fine google) | 17:19 |
| VladDrac | http://zif.hill-street.net/jsonserver | 17:19 |
| srichter | yes, that seems to be it | 17:21 |
| VladDrac | hmm, json looks interesting as well now that I'm rather into RIA / ajax stuff (and Flex unfortunately, for which I need AMF) | 17:22 |
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| VladDrac | hmm too bad you need to *replace* the http server with your own | 17:52 |
| VladDrac | in stead of somehow adapting | 17:53 |
| VladDrac | this way you can't, for example, mix AMF and JSON | 17:53 |
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| srichter | benji_york: did you work with WfMC workflows too? | 18:45 |
| benji_york | srichter, nope (well, not much) :) | 18:46 |
| srichter | do you know who did, besides Jim? | 18:47 |
| benji_york | I don't think anyone else worked on it (substantially, at least) | 18:47 |
| benji_york | do you want me to get him in here? | 18:47 |
| srichter | I am trying to figure out how to model multiple concurrent activities that are dynamically generated | 18:48 |
| srichter | if he has time, that would be great | 18:48 |
| benji_york | ok, it'll probably be a minute, but I'll have him ping you when he gets here | 18:48 |
| srichter | great | 18:48 |
| srichter | thanks | 18:48 |
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| srichter | J1m: good morning | 18:53 |
| srichter | J1m: I have a quick question about WfMC | 18:53 |
| J1m | k | 18:53 |
| srichter | I have the need for a dynamic set of concurrent activities | 18:53 |
| srichter | for example: a student takes several classes at once | 18:54 |
| srichter | currently I have the following solution: | 18:54 |
| srichter | I have an activity called "Complete Classes" | 18:54 |
| srichter | I have some WF relevant data item that has a list of all "Complete" | 18:55 |
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| srichter | I have some WF relevant data item that has a list of all "Complete Class" instances | 18:55 |
| J1m | where the number of classes is variable? | 18:55 |
| srichter | yep | 18:55 |
| J1m | Yeah, wfmc doesn't handle this well (at all really, without hacks). | 18:55 |
| srichter | not only the number of course, but in a college setting, almost every student has a unique combination | 18:55 |
| srichter | ok, that's what I wanted to hear | 18:56 |
| srichter | this way my solution does not seem to hacky | 18:56 |
| srichter | (though it seems like an utterly common pattern) | 18:56 |
| srichter | this way my solution does not seem too hacky | 18:56 |
| J1m | (Someday, I need to grok yawl, which perports to handle this situation well.) | 18:56 |
| srichter | yawl? | 18:57 |
| srichter | oh, yet another standard WF representation :-) | 18:57 |
| J1m | Yet Another Workflow Language, | 18:57 |
| J1m | Someone on the Zope 3 list was singing its praises a few months ago. | 18:58 |
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| srichter | oh, I remember that discussion vaguely | 18:59 |
| VladDrac | srichter I don't really like jsons approach - it replaces the existing httpserver (if I understand correctly) making it impossible to mix different handlers | 18:59 |
| VladDrac | a bit unzope3ish to me | 18:59 |
| VladDrac | perhaps adapting request/response in some traversal hook works | 18:59 |
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| J1m | Somebody's input got clipped for me. | 18:59 |
| srichter | well that's because Jim did not have a choice | 18:59 |
| srichter | hooking in different HTTP sub-protocols will be part of my twisted integration proposal and implementation | 19:00 |
| srichter | J1m: huh? | 19:00 |
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| J1m | O weird, If I mouse and click on the missing text (from VladDrac) some of it apears ... | 19:01 |
| VladDrac | j1m: using xchat? | 19:02 |
| srichter | J1m: another thing that WfMC seems to have gotten wrong are applications; I often want to define a WF generically and later hook functionality to it as needed | 19:02 |
| srichter | in Zope 3 terms that would mean: Define a standard application and then have event subscribers being called by this application | 19:02 |
| J1m | Yes. xchat | 19:02 |
| srichter | but this is not very WfMCish, so I am not doing this | 19:03 |
| J1m | VladDrac, I was eventually able to click enough to see all your text. :) | 19:03 |
| J1m | srichter, I don't know what you mean. All applications are hooked up externally and thus "later". | 19:03 |
| * srichter notes that SchoolTool is one of the first projects (certainly in OS) that attempts to model a school's WF -- instead of just theorizing about it | 19:04 | |
| srichter | J1m: but the amount of applications is hard coded | 19:04 |
| J1m | I don't know what you mean. | 19:04 |
| srichter | For example, what if a third-party add-on package to schooltool wants to hook into the workflow and add another application? | 19:05 |
| srichter | (to a particular activity) | 19:05 |
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| srichter | J1m: so I have two choices thus far: | 19:07 |
| srichter | I register to one of the generic zope.wfmc events (disadvantage: I cannot influence the workflow) | 19:07 |
| srichter | or | 19:07 |
| srichter | I create a generic application that provides some hookup for 3rd party code, including access to WfRD (rel. data) | 19:08 |
| srichter | but this seems a bit hacky to me as well | 19:09 |
| srichter | I can live with this, but its justa shortcoming | 19:09 |
| srichter | I think WfMC is very much geared towards describing a set workflow process ina company | 19:09 |
| srichter | <over> | 19:10 |
| srichter | J1m: comments, insights? :-) | 19:10 |
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| anguenot | hi all | 20:24 |
| anguenot | I was checking the latest changes on the make process and and zcml slug files | 20:25 |
| anguenot | What's the way now to add dynamically a component after the instance has been built ? | 20:25 |
| anguenot | I'm missing sthg here... | 20:25 |
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| srichter | fdrake: are you there? | 20:30 |
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| anguenot | need to move now | 20:32 |
| anguenot | cia | 20:33 |
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| fdrake | yeah, 'bout to grab lunch though | 20:34 |
| srichter | ok, then go | 20:34 |
| srichter | we talk afterwards | 20:34 |
| fdrake | i just responded to your note to Julien | 20:34 |
| fdrake | anguenot, do you want to add a component to the software installation, to the instance, or in a checkout? | 20:35 |
| fdrake | ok, ttfn | 20:36 |
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| J1m | srichter, ayt? | 20:52 |
| srichter | J1m: yeah | 20:52 |
| J1m | on the applications | 20:54 |
| srichter | yeah, I am listening... :-) | 20:54 |
| J1m | applications produce data that affects the workflow data. | 20:54 |
| srichter | right | 20:54 |
| J1m | The control applications are part of the control flow. | 20:54 |
| J1m | That makes adding arbitrary applications after the fact difficult. | 20:55 |
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| srichter | yep | 20:56 |
| srichter | I think those use cases were simply not considered | 20:56 |
| J1m | what use cases? | 20:56 |
| srichter | the issue explodes, if you think that a third party app might want to replace an activity with a sub-process | 20:57 |
| J1m | I was saying that adding applications after the fact was of limited usefulness. | 20:57 |
| srichter | oh, I misinterpreted then the answer then | 20:57 |
| J1m | Ah, now that's an interesting case. | 20:57 |
| srichter | for example | 20:57 |
| J1m | we ran into that and found the wfmc subprocess not very useful. | 20:57 |
| srichter | interesting | 20:58 |
| srichter | our use case: | 20:58 |
| J1m | Rather, we did exactly what you suggested, we defined an application that was, in fact, implemented by a wfmx process. | 20:58 |
| J1m | wfmc | 20:58 |
| srichter | we will have a workflow to complete a course/class with assignments | 20:58 |
| srichter | ok, cool | 20:58 |
| srichter | initially the grade book is managed manually | 20:59 |
| srichter | but I could imagine an add-on that wants to provide online testing and thus extend the grading activity to a process | 20:59 |
| srichter | but this is a far future use case | 20:59 |
| srichter | ok, I am glad I am on the right track on thinking about all this | 21:00 |
| srichter | our goal is to pretty much implement an entire school using WfMC workflows | 21:01 |
| J1m | OK, so there's nothing in wfmc that would prevent you from implementing an activity with a subprocess. | 21:02 |
| srichter | good point | 21:02 |
| srichter | I think there is a lot of room for Z3/ECM add-on packages | 21:03 |
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| fdrake | srichter, you had a question for me earlier? | 21:09 |
| srichter | hold on, I am right back | 21:25 |
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| srichter | fdrake: back | 21:33 |
| srichter | I just wanted to get some pointers on how to implement the exclude environment | 21:34 |
| fdrake | hehe | 21:34 |
| fdrake | the non-ZConfig approach really stinks | 21:34 |
| fdrake | hold off a little; i'm exploring moving to ZConfig completely | 21:34 |
| fdrake | that would make it a *lot* easier. | 21:34 |
| srichter | benji_york: I did some tests this morning and xmllib2 does not seem to be significantly faster than pullparser, so no optimizations from that | 21:35 |
| srichter | okay | 21:35 |
| fdrake | the biggest catch is that there are three relevant file formats :-( | 21:36 |
| fdrake | (SETUP.cfg, PACKAGE.cfg, zpkg.conf) | 21:36 |
| benji_york | srichter, darn | 21:40 |
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| srichter | fdrake: oh, I see | 21:44 |
| srichter | but son't they all use the same parser class? | 21:44 |
| srichter | benji_york: also, xmllib2 would be much more restrictive, since it really, really wants clean XHTML | 21:45 |
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| fdrake | srichter: one down, I think :-) | 22:05 |
| srichter | fdrake: what? | 22:06 |
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| ksmith | hiyall, after I do make install for Z3, shouldn't I be able to import zope? | 22:07 |
| srichter | ksmith: no, you have to add it to the path | 22:07 |
| srichter | Zope does not install into site-packages | 22:07 |
| fdrake | srichter: fixing up zpkg file formats to really use ZConfig | 22:08 |
| srichter | yay! | 22:08 |
| srichter | are you doing this right now? | 22:08 |
| srichter | converting to ZConfig that is? | 22:08 |
| fdrake | zpkg.conf seems done, modulo a minor nit intended to keep the other tests passing | 22:08 |
| fdrake | working on it | 22:09 |
| srichter | cool | 22:09 |
| fdrake | if it takes more than today, I might bail | 22:09 |
| srichter | do it! :-) | 22:09 |
| ksmith | srichter: thanks! | 22:09 |
| fdrake | but I can probably convince myself to work pretty late on this, since it reduces the pain level for working on zpkg | 22:09 |
| fdrake | (more substantially than I care to admit) | 22:10 |
| fdrake | (well, ok, i guess i kinda just did) :-) | 22:10 |
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| srichter | he he | 22:11 |
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| srichter | fdrake: is there a particular reason you have zopeskel in the Zope 3 root? | 22:29 |
| srichter | I think it would be better placed into releases/Zope, no? | 22:30 |
| fdrake | that's where it was | 22:30 |
| srichter | I see | 22:30 |
| fdrake | maybe; it is used in the checkout | 22:30 |
| srichter | oh, it is? | 22:30 |
| srichter | ok | 22:30 |
| fdrake | that's where all the ZCML slugs get tossed | 22:30 |
| fdrake | the in-place build relies on that for the install_data command | 22:31 |
| srichter | mmh, strange | 22:32 |
| srichter | I wonder whether this is right | 22:32 |
| fdrake | don't know, really | 22:33 |
| fdrake | it may be that we want something very different | 22:33 |
| srichter | make should really produce a package-includes dir in the root | 22:33 |
| fdrake | i'd be glad to explain my views on Thursday, when we're in the same room and can gesticulate wildly :-) | 22:33 |
| srichter | the skel is only there for support | 22:33 |
| srichter | I would have never guessed to look there | 22:33 |
| srichter | yes | 22:33 |
| srichter | we should hold off the discussion till then | 22:34 |
| fdrake | there's a (painful, IMO) reason to use it | 22:34 |
| fdrake | but there are better approaches in general | 22:34 |
| fdrake | using that for now let us clean up other things, and actually use zpkg for the inplace build | 22:34 |
| srichter | ok, I really need to get ST to this point as well | 22:35 |
| fdrake | :-) | 22:35 |
| srichter | we have the added difficulty that we need to be able to produce two releases from pretty much the same tree | 22:35 |
| fdrake | then we can discuss what this point should be this week | 22:36 |
| fdrake | that's no real issue | 22:36 |
| srichter | I hope so :-) | 22:36 |
| fdrake | we produce at least three or four from the Zope tree, depending on how you count | 22:36 |
| fdrake | (ZPT, ZopeInterface, Zope 3, and Zope 3 on Windows) | 22:36 |
| srichter | right | 22:37 |
| srichter | I am already doing something like ZopeInterface from our tree | 22:37 |
| fdrake | I'll be I should do RCs of ZPT and ZopeInterface from the 3.1.0c2 tag. | 22:37 |
| fdrake | s/be/bet/ | 22:37 |
| srichter | probably | 22:39 |
| srichter | fdrake: is there a way I can use Zope 3's zopeskel directory for ST and add a couple of my own scripts? | 22:47 |
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| fdrake | are you using an installed Zope 3? | 22:47 |
| fdrake | log in to AIM; this is likely easier over the phone :-) | 22:48 |
| fdrake | gimme a couple of minutes... | 22:49 |
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| srichter | cannot do voice | 22:49 |
| srichter | fdrake: anyway, I shut up and wait till Thursday | 22:49 |
| fdrake | ah, ok | 22:50 |
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| fdrake | another opportunity to gesticulate randomly, but vehemently :-) | 22:50 |
| srichter | he he | 22:52 |
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| tiredbones | Can zope 3.1.0c1 be used with python 2.4.1 without to much trouble? | 23:57 |
| fdrake | yes | 23:57 |
| tiredbones | thanks | 23:57 |
| fdrake | np ;-) | 23:57 |
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