| J1m | I'd vote for you. | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| benji | just ask GaryPoster, he agrees that if I were a mear ambasidor, I'd have already started WW3 | 00:00 |
| ClaesBas | Is there some kind of command like "mkzopeinstanceupdate" | 00:01 |
| benji | not to mention put general spelling ability back 100 years | 00:01 |
| GaryPoster | :-) | 00:01 |
| GaryPoster | Hey--can I talk about the gross tzinfo thing here? | 00:01 |
| benji | ClaesBas, do you want to see changes made to your skeleton, or to the Zope 3 source (in subversion) | 00:01 |
| benji | sure, GaryPoster, why not | 00:01 |
| GaryPoster | So the thing that (evil) Benji told me to look at is a really bad non-API use of pytz. | 00:02 |
| GaryPoster | It's bad because it instantiates timezones that can be pickled, but cannot be unpickled, so they are lying in wait for the unwary. | 00:02 |
| benji | GaryPoster, is right, all the evil twins have goatees, therefore I am an evil twin | 00:02 |
| GaryPoster | heh | 00:02 |
| benji | yep, very evil | 00:02 |
| benji | why, do you think, it does that? | 00:03 |
| GaryPoster | Because it wasn't designed to be used the way it is being used here. It isn't the right class for the job. | 00:03 |
| benji | so it's a misuse more than a bug | 00:03 |
| ClaesBas | I try to learn this Zope thing and done Benjis examples which says that you should do a mkinstsance! I was thinking how to update the instance after a "svn update" of main source.... | 00:03 |
| GaryPoster | Well, it's a misuse of pytz, which is a very nasty bug in zope.i18n | 00:04 |
| benji | yep | 00:04 |
| GaryPoster | So I have three possible solutions | 00:04 |
| benji | amongst the possible solutions are... | 00:04 |
| GaryPoster | 1) I assert that these things should not be persistable, and I have a subclass of pytz.reference.FixedOffset that pukes when you try to persist it, perhaps with a helpful message like "Hey! convert this time to UTC, buddy!" | 00:05 |
| benji | I like that one, continue. | 00:05 |
| GaryPoster | 2) I assert that these things may be persisted, even though you probably shouldn't, and let people hang themselves if they don't know any better, simply using pytz.reference.FixedOffset without any warnings. This will work, but it will make the ZODB bloat if people do it a lot, since there's no code for using a singleton for a given offset (so you'd have multiple 0 offset timezones, multiple 60 minute offset timezones, etc.). | 00:07 |
| benji | and what is behind door number 3? | 00:08 |
| GaryPoster | 3) I copy all, or the pertinent bits, of zope.app.datetimeutils into zope.i18n, since it has a timezone implementation that does the right thing, and use it. I can't use it in zope.app.datetimeutils because it would create a nasty dependency. | 00:09 |
| GaryPoster | I prefer 1 too | 00:09 |
| ClaesBas | Does a instance (mkzopeinstance) need any update after a "main source update" anytime? | 00:10 |
| J1m | What will 1) break? | 00:10 |
| benji | yep, definately 1, cleaner and lets people know early when they've done something stupid | 00:10 |
| J1m | GaryPoster, what will 1) break? | 00:11 |
| benji | the darn tests are failing and I don't know why | 00:11 |
| GaryPoster | well, benji, you said you liked #1, not that you preferred it. ;-) J1m, number 1 will change the current behavior, which is to break at *unpickling*, to break when pickling. So, if it breaks anything, it was already broken, but in a more subtle and unpleasant way. | 00:11 |
| benji | no tracebacks; all it says is Total: 7023 tests, 0 failures, 3 errors | 00:11 |
| benji | that's cause you weren't done yet, GaryPoster, didn't want to overcommit :) | 00:12 |
| GaryPoster | hee hee | 00:12 |
| GaryPoster | what do you think, J1m? | 00:12 |
| J1m | benji, I'm aware of that. | 00:12 |
| J1m | It's my fault. | 00:12 |
| benji | oh, good, I was afraid it was me :) | 00:12 |
| J1m | I'm trying to fix it. | 00:12 |
| J1m | I mean it was you. | 00:13 |
| GaryPoster | lol | 00:13 |
| benji | lol | 00:13 |
| J1m | But I'll fix it for you. | 00:13 |
| benji | thanks, Jim, you're so nice to me | 00:13 |
| J1m | GaryPoster, surely, since existing code is causeing these tp be pickled, making pickling of them raise an error will break something. | 00:14 |
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| benji | J1m, it might break something, but in a here-we-just-saved-you-major-debugging-time way | 00:15 |
| GaryPoster | Maybe so--don't you figure that code has already been fixed, though, since it would cause broken pickles? Alternatively, if we do care about old | 00:15 |
| GaryPoster | oops | 00:15 |
| * benji must be on some kind of talk-with-hyphens-kick | 00:15 | |
| GaryPoster | to continue... :-) | 00:15 |
| GaryPoster | if we do care about old pickles, then we would have to change the original pytz class that is being used in an inappropriate way to support the inappropriate usage... | 00:16 |
| J1m | So you assert that code is no longer trying to pickle these things, but might be tempted to in the future? | 00:16 |
| J1m | I'm not asking about old pickles. | 00:16 |
| J1m | I want to know if this change is going to break existing code. | 00:17 |
| ClaesBas | The silence of my question says: The code created from "mkzopeinstance" never need to be upgraded after a "main source update"! Or? | 00:18 |
| GaryPoster | I assert that if code is trying to pickle these things, they were or are in for some nasty hurting. Since there is an XXX, it seems others have already discovered the hurting, and presumably changed their code to adjust, since Zope is still broken. If I try the change and run the tests and nothing breaks, will that be good enough? | 00:18 |
| J1m | sure | 00:19 |
| GaryPoster | OK, cool | 00:19 |
| GaryPoster | ClaesBas: yes, sometimes you want to make a new instance, or at least compare instances to see how the skeleton changed. Once you apply any similar changes to the new instance that you had to the old, you should be able to use the old database, just copying it in. | 00:21 |
| GaryPoster | (or moving it in) | 00:21 |
| ClaesBas | But there is no standard command or solution? | 00:21 |
| GaryPoster | No, not to my knowledge. | 00:22 |
| benji | ClaesBas, we generally move the old instance out of the way, build a new one, then put the database(es) back | 00:23 |
| ClaesBas | So everytime you do a new "mkzopeinstance" do a extra one to be able to diff against in the future.... | 00:23 |
| benji | ClaesBas, I've often thought of adding a "diff" and "update" command to mkzopeinstance, but haven't had sufficient inclination | 00:24 |
| * benji just notices that I repeated Gary, oops | 00:25 | |
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| dman13 | ok, I implemented my fix for the xml attribute quoting in principals.zcml. (I ran out of disk space trying to check out the 3.2 branch) | 00:29 |
| dman13 | Along the way I noticed there is ./zopeskel and ./src/zope/app/server/zopeskel | 00:30 |
| dman13 | the former appears to reference twisted; mkzopeinstance appears to use only the latter, and the latter doesn't have a principals.zcml template | 00:30 |
| dman13 | I'm not sure what I ought to do about that (if anything) | 00:30 |
| ClaesBas | When in future do you think documention/Books is going to be in level with source/concepts of Zope3 (I mean more stabilized)? | 00:33 |
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| benji | ClaesBas, that day may never come, technology books are notoriously always out of date | 00:34 |
| GaryPoster | j1m, In Zope 2, when we wanted to disable pickling, we had both __getstate__ and __reduce__ raise errors. Is it necessary (or good form) to have *both* raise an error? | 00:35 |
| GaryPoster | I guess I'm confused. :-/ | 00:35 |
| dman13 | is this really valid XML? login='ad"min' | 00:35 |
| J1m | You only need to have __reduce_ex__ raise an error. | 00:36 |
| GaryPoster | OK, cool, thanks | 00:36 |
| benji | yep, dman13 | 00:36 |
| J1m | assuming that the object is not persistent. :) | 00:36 |
| dman13 | benji: thanks. I haven't seen that in practice before (and haven't read the spec in-depth) | 00:37 |
| dman13 | benji: but saxutils.quoteattr() spit it out like it was :-) | 00:37 |
| benji | :) | 00:37 |
| ClaesBas | Zope3 is never going to be a "big" plaform if you continue to race like you do today, with no chance for anybody else more then you "core-devs" to understand the product.... What is the "masterplan"? | 00:43 |
| dman13 | the masterplan is to make z3 perfect, then retire with massive wealth | 00:43 |
| dman13 | ;-) | 00:44 |
| ClaesBas | But the perfect product/concept is moving very fast... | 00:44 |
| benji | ClaesBas, there is definately a desire to "solidify" the core system, that is pretty much starting now | 00:44 |
| dman13 | no, perfect is not moving, we're just trying to figure out what it is | 00:44 |
| dman13 | (that's one perspective, anyways) | 00:45 |
| benji | plus, there is great attention given to backward compatibility (but that's a tangent to what you were asking about) | 00:45 |
| ClaesBas | Things like "apetizers" which not works disturbs me.... | 00:46 |
| dman13 | ok, check out r40837 (and issue 522) if you want to double-check what I just did | 00:47 |
| ClaesBas | I mean for example jeffrey Shell's TODO application | 00:47 |
| dman13 | should I merge that change to the trunk now or is someone going to merge all the 3.2 bugfixes at the end of today? | 00:50 |
| ClaesBas | I'm not going to disturb you anymore today, maybe I should wait some months to see if there is documention ( =chance to understand) then or find another platform follow.... | 00:53 |
| dman13 | ClaesBas: there is documentation for zope3, both online and in print. | 00:54 |
| dman13 | ClaesBas: once you understand the principles of the platform and the main pieces, the rest is pretty natural | 00:54 |
| dman13 | ClaesBas: at least, that has been my experience | 00:54 |
| ClaesBas | How many hours how you invested in this? | 00:55 |
| dman13 | ClaesBas: and you always have the source to fall back on to help understand something (I find it helpful, and the source is always more precise than the documentation) | 00:55 |
| dman13 | I don't know. Quite a few all total, but I created 2 applications based on it. | 00:56 |
| ClaesBas | The problem I think is that it's a fast moving target.... | 00:56 |
| dman13 | it's somewhat of a problem. Since the 3.0 release the API has remained stable, and the newer work mainly just adds more functionality. | 00:57 |
| dman13 | I started working with Z3 in 2003. One of the applications (which I am working on adding new functionality to now) uses a cvs snapshot from that timeframe | 00:58 |
| dman13 | once I understood the concepts, following discussions on zope3-dev became easier because I had an idea what was going on even if I didn't know the internal details of that particular item | 00:59 |
| dman13 | I think zope is a good platform and like working with it | 00:59 |
| dman13 | FWIW | 00:59 |
| ClaesBas | Try to follow Richters book and do the examples... | 00:59 |
| dman13 | I don't have the print version, but I used the online version (not completely up-to-date) before the print one was released | 01:00 |
| benji | ClaesBas, you might want to ask srichter, I was under the impression that most or all of the examples should still work | 01:00 |
| ClaesBas | My point is: You need to be somekind of core-dev or very experienced of Zope2 to be able produce anything with Zope3 | 01:01 |
| ClaesBas | I read on the list there is not going to be any updates of the books in the near future... | 01:02 |
| benji | I don't think you need to be a core developer of Z3 to use it (but who am I to speak); and I think having extensive Z2 experience is actually a henderance | 01:03 |
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| ClaesBas | I'm not trying to be rude to you,,,, I think Zope is very cool..... | 01:03 |
| benji | no offence taken, I welcome constructive criticism | 01:04 |
| ClaesBas | BTW I liked your (Benji) example Zope 3 in 30 minutes! | 01:05 |
| benji | actually, that one is by Baiju, mine is here http://www.benjiyork.com/quick_start/ | 01:06 |
| jinty | ClaesBas: I am neither a core dev or experienced in Z2 and I use Z3 sucessfully | 01:07 |
| dman13 | I agree with benji that zope2 experience can hamper learning zope3 because they are somewhat different paradigms | 01:07 |
| dman13 | (however, learning z3 made the cmf make sense to me) | 01:07 |
| ClaesBas | Sorry I meant your (promise) hello-thing! | 01:08 |
| GaryPoster | J1m: the good news is, no functional tests fail when I make the non-persistable tzinfo change. The bad news is, that just means that the code wasn't tested in any of the functional tests. I had an error that should have made them puke. It made some unit tests puke, but no functional tests. I have to go home. Do you have a quick suggestion/opinion/decree, or can I ask you to send me an email when you have a moment? | 01:09 |
| GaryPoster | OK, gotta run, I'm late. :-/ I'll check in when I can. | 01:11 |
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| ClaesBas | I promised you earlier not to disturb you anymore today.... Keep up the good work (with maybe more documention and examples) in the future! | 01:24 |
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| tahara | Hi.I have a question about manner of using 'removeSecurityProxy' | 11:46 |
| philiKON | tahara, go ahead and ask | 11:47 |
| tahara | now I try to fix the gadflyda test page. | 11:47 |
| tahara | because I use gadflyda's test, then occured forbidden attribute error. | 11:48 |
| philiKON | forbidden attributes are an indicator of missing security declarations | 11:49 |
| tahara | yes | 11:49 |
| tahara | GadflyAdapterCursor does not have any security declarations. | 11:50 |
| tahara | but I think if a local utility component(gadflyda) is not security proxied, | 11:51 |
| tahara | then does not occur error. and | 11:52 |
| tahara | if I got gadflyda instance using getUtility, it is not proxied, but got instance using traverse, it is proxied. | 11:54 |
| tahara | so I don't know which is a correct way to implement local utility... | 11:55 |
| tahara | I'm sorry to my bad english... | 11:55 |
| philiKON | not sure what that has to do with implementing a local utility | 11:55 |
| philiKON | retrieving a local utility would most probably happen via getUtility | 11:55 |
| philiKON | but i guess the regular traversal should also work | 11:56 |
| philiKON | including cursors retrieved from the utility | 11:56 |
| tahara | but when I write a browser package, | 11:56 |
| tahara | self.context is proxied component, | 11:57 |
| philiKON | right, right | 11:57 |
| tahara | then should I use removeSecurityProxy for context? | 11:57 |
| philiKON | preferably not | 11:57 |
| philiKON | proivde security declarations | 11:58 |
| philiKON | <class class="....GadflyCursor"> <allow interface="...IZopeCursor" /> </class> I think | 11:58 |
| tahara | ok I see. so gadflyda needs more configuration. | 11:58 |
| tahara | thanks. | 11:58 |
| philiKON | np | 12:01 |
| tahara | I'll post this report to collector after dinner:-) | 12:02 |
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| tahara | does anyone commit this bugfix? http://www.zope.org/Collectors/Zope3-dev/523 | 16:02 |
| tahara | gadfly may not important feature, but every beginner get start with this. | 16:03 |
| tahara | so I do mind this error. | 16:03 |
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| J1m | tahara, do you want to commit this bugfix? | 16:06 |
| tahara | yes. | 16:07 |
| J1m | are you a contributor? | 16:07 |
| tahara | No I'm not. | 16:07 |
| tahara | I want to be, but not yet. | 16:07 |
| J1m | would you like to be? | 16:07 |
| J1m | ah | 16:07 |
| tahara | yes, ofcourse! | 16:07 |
| J1m | so submit a contributor agreement and I'll set you up. | 16:08 |
| tahara | I use zope in four years in japan. but I'm not good in English:-( | 16:08 |
| tahara | oh Thanks!! | 16:08 |
| J1m | That's OK, I don't know Japanese at all. | 16:08 |
| J1m | But they still let me contribute. | 16:09 |
| tahara | ok I'll send agreement. | 16:09 |
| tahara | thank you so much! | 16:09 |
| J1m | Seriously, communication is more important than coding. English is the common language for Zope development. I very much appreciate the efforts of people work hard to communicate in English to contribute. | 16:11 |
| tahara | I see. | 16:12 |
| tahara | I have beed experienced my communication problem in last pycon:-( | 16:13 |
| J1m | We appreciate the effort. | 16:14 |
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| tahara | sure | 16:15 |
| philiKON | tahara, it's never too late to learn a language :). i'm learning chinese right now, for example... | 16:19 |
| tahara | wow. | 16:19 |
| J1m | I wish I had time to learn a 2nd language, even an easy one like Spanish. Someday. | 16:20 |
| philiKON | J1m, never learned one in school? | 16:20 |
| J1m | Nah. I was a goof off until fairly late in my school carreer. | 16:22 |
| philiKON | hehe | 16:22 |
| philiKON | so there's still hope for me too ;) | 16:22 |
| tahara | in japan, almost people have learned in english ten years, but can't speak, sigh. | 16:23 |
| tahara | but I try my best:) | 16:24 |
| J1m | You can at least read and write it. | 16:24 |
| philiKON | and we can understand what you write :) | 16:25 |
| tahara | haha. | 16:25 |
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| efrerich | Can somebody say when the next 3.2 release is planned? I want inform the i18n-translators | 20:13 |
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| philiKON | efrerich, my guess is first week of january | 20:37 |
| philiKON | but srichter knows more | 20:37 |
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| ChrisW | any btree wizzards here? | 22:11 |
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| newpers | i think it's clear that there needs to be more zope3 demos out there, but does anyone agree with me that there needs to be more zope3 demos that don't use the zmi? | 22:27 |
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| philiKON | newpers, seen http://worldcookery.com/Appetizers ? | 22:29 |
| philiKON | newpers, plus, what zmi? ;) | 22:29 |
| newpers | yeah | 22:30 |
| newpers | that list is extremely small | 22:30 |
| newpers | maybe i'm confused on the target audience of zope3 | 22:30 |
| philiKON | make it one entry bigger :) | 22:30 |
| newpers | heh | 22:30 |
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| philiKON | seriously, 3 starter tutorial ain't that bad | 22:31 |
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| philiKON | oops. sorry. hit command + q there | 22:32 |
| newpers | :) | 22:32 |
| newpers | i guess i'm failing to remember that zope3 is still new | 22:32 |
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| philiKON | but it's not *that* new | 22:34 |
| philiKON | you haven't said yet what it is that you want that the existing docs don't provide | 22:34 |
| newpers | it's not the docs that's the probloem | 22:35 |
| newpers | i just don't understand how #rubyonrails has over 350 people in there right now and #zope and #zope3-dev don't come close | 22:36 |
| philiKON | you read my blog? | 22:37 |
| newpers | yeah, it was great | 22:37 |
| philiKON | then you know why :) | 22:37 |
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