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| radix | is there any general way to do whitespace-normalized tagless text searches in the contents of a test browser? | 01:19 |
|---|---|---|
| benji | nope, I normally feed browser.contents to BeautifulSoup and use that to dig out whatever it is I want | 01:20 |
| radix | yeah, I guess that's what I'll do | 01:20 |
| radix | hm, I guess I can do something like "Foo Bar Baz" in ''.join(BeautifulSoup(browser.contents).findAll(text=True)) | 01:24 |
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| benji | I /think/ (but am not sure) that BS has a "give me the text without the tags" method, but I don't recall what it's named | 01:31 |
| radix | hork, the one in dapper is way out of date. | 01:32 |
| benji | yeah, I never depend on OS-packaged software | 01:36 |
| benji | (as far as software components go, that is) | 01:39 |
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| radix | hmm, I also need a way to normalize the whitespace | 01:45 |
| benji | radix: if you're using doctest, you can have it do it for you | 01:57 |
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| radix | benji: oh! I didn't think of that | 02:27 |
| radix | hmm | 02:27 |
| radix | although not quite as nicely | 02:27 |
| radix | or maybe I can? | 02:28 |
| * radix tries something | 02:28 | |
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| radix | because doctest's whitespace normalization maintains newlines, it looks like | 02:31 |
| benji | radix: hrm, you'll just have to do it yourself: ' '.join(your_string.split()) migth work for you | 02:34 |
| radix | yep, already got it | 02:35 |
| radix | >>> getText = lambda st: ' '.join(''.join(soup(st).fetchText(lambda x: True)).split()) | 02:36 |
| radix | >:\ | 02:36 |
| benji | yow! :) | 02:37 |
| philiKON | lo | 02:42 |
| * benji waits in suspence to find out where philiKON is "laughing out" of; out side? out of his window? | 02:45 | |
| * philiKON was just sayiing "hello" | 02:46 | |
| philiKON | but too lazy to type w/ both hands | 02:46 |
| benji | ahh | 02:46 |
| benji | wouldn't that be "hllo"? | 02:46 |
| philiKON | hllo | 02:46 |
| philiKON | database | 02:46 |
| philiKON | (that's only left ahnd) | 02:47 |
| philiKON | philipp | 02:47 |
| philiKON | (only right hand) | 02:47 |
| benji | I wrote a program once that let you type with one hand by "flipping" the keyboard mapping over on itself when you held down the caps-lock key | 02:47 |
| philiKON | nice. would help whenever i'm eating an apple | 02:47 |
| philiKON | i learned to touch type when i was 12 or so | 02:48 |
| philiKON | i just plain hate typing slower than i have to ;) | 02:48 |
| benji | also good for typing with one hand on the mouse | 02:48 |
| philiKON | err, ahving to type slower | 02:48 |
| benji | yeah, I've been typeing since about then (whin /I/ was 12, not you) | 02:48 |
| philiKON | heh | 02:48 |
| * philiKON was probalby crapping in dipers? | 02:49 | |
| benji | I doubt it, unless you were particularly hard to potty-train | 02:49 |
| benji | I'm just 30. | 02:49 |
| philiKON | ah :) | 02:49 |
| philiKON | i'm 23 | 02:50 |
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| febb | hello all | 02:50 |
| benji | there's a company selling a keyboard that does the same thing as my software, it's a shame too, because I would gladly release it at no cost and they charge $600 for a single keyboard (but they threatend me with a patent suite, so I dropped the idea) | 02:51 |
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| benji | and they target handicapped people as customers, slimebags (the company, not the handicapped people) | 02:52 |
| philiKON | :(( | 02:52 |
| philiKON | software patents suck | 02:52 |
| philiKON | thank god i live in europe :) | 02:52 |
| benji | hey, maybe you could "write" the software and release it there | 02:52 |
| philiKON | hehehe | 02:53 |
| philiKON | and never be able to enter the u.s. again? | 02:53 |
| benji | hrm, that's a distinct possability :( | 02:53 |
| philiKON | i'd probably be taken in custody by the homeland gestapo^H^H^H^H^H^H^H security immediately | 02:53 |
| benji | heh :) | 02:54 |
| febb | benji: Mexico is as good as Europe... for what is worth mentioning ! ;) | 02:54 |
| philiKON | febb, except w/o government :) | 02:54 |
| febb | yeah... it has its advantages.... | 02:54 |
| benji | I may retire to Mexico, in 30 years or so (or maybe Costa Rica) | 02:55 |
| febb | be my guest ... for sure you will be welcome here. where are you, btw ? | 02:55 |
| benji | in the US (Virginia) | 02:56 |
| * philiKON has to stop by f12g next time on the way to pycon | 02:56 | |
| febb | yeah, near Wash, DC..... | 02:56 |
| benji | yep | 02:56 |
| benji | definitely, philiKON | 02:57 |
| benji | I would like to go to pycon next year... I probably need to start thinking about that | 02:57 |
| philiKON | it's time for me to meet you guys :) | 02:58 |
| benji | yep! | 02:58 |
| philiKON | i only know jim | 02:58 |
| philiKON | and lots of ex-zc guys | 02:58 |
| philiKON | lol, i know 80% of ZC as it was 4 years ago :) | 02:58 |
| benji | :) | 02:59 |
| benji | hopefully by then we'll have more ZC guys to know; we're trying to hire some people ATM | 03:00 |
| philiKON | cool | 03:00 |
| benji | well, time for me to head home; I'll be back tomorrow | 03:02 |
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| eins | hi | 08:02 |
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| harobed | hi, same in svn version, there aren't IDict Widget, why this ? It's a bad idea ? | 11:05 |
| Theuni | Do you mean it was removed or it never existed? | 11:16 |
| harobed | yes | 11:20 |
| harobed | it never existed | 11:20 |
| Theuni | hmm. then maybe nobody needed it until now and therefor didn't make it. | 11:22 |
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| rocky | wow the zope3 mailing lists have really picked up in activity lately | 17:03 |
| philiKON | specially zope3-users | 17:03 |
| philiKON | lots of users helping each other | 17:03 |
| rocky | sounds like another nice milestone in zope3 use being reached | 17:04 |
| philiKON | zope 3.3 is in a lot of ways an important milestone | 17:05 |
| philiKON | not so much technologically | 17:05 |
| philiKON | well, also technologically | 17:05 |
| philiKON | but LOTS of deployments are happening these days | 17:05 |
| philiKON | lots of new users | 17:05 |
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| philiKON | lots of 3rd party stuff | 17:05 |
| philiKON | new book ;) | 17:06 |
| rocky | yep... and the plone community is more gung-ho then ever... zope 3.3 presents a release where plone will be pushing local utilities *alot* | 17:06 |
| rocky | although that's more related to zope 2.10 | 17:06 |
| rocky | but they're joined at the hip | 17:06 |
| philiKON | yes. that's the technological side of things | 17:06 |
| philiKON | local utilities are important for zope 2 | 17:06 |
| philiKON | i think w/o the simplifications in zope 3.3/2.10, it would be much more difficult for the plone guys | 17:07 |
| rocky | indeed | 17:07 |
| rocky | plone people need things as simple as possible | 17:07 |
| rocky | third-party plone developers i mean | 17:07 |
| philiKON | yup | 17:07 |
| rocky | part of the appeal of plone | 17:07 |
| philiKON | yep | 17:08 |
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| faassen | I think you're using a different word for 'simple' there. | 17:46 |
| faassen | simplification in the way ZCML gets registered by having less directives doesn't *necessarily* mean simpler use. | 17:47 |
| faassen | I mean, both are valuable forms of simplication. | 17:47 |
| faassen | but one doesn't necessarily mean the other. | 17:47 |
| faassen | rocky and philiKON :) | 17:47 |
| philiKON | hi faassen | 17:47 |
| faassen | hey. | 17:47 |
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| philiKON | you're right | 17:47 |
| philiKON | rocky means "simple" for the user | 17:48 |
| philiKON | i meant "simple" for the plone framework | 17:48 |
| rocky | i mean a little bit of both :) | 17:48 |
| faassen | anyway, hope to start a project the next Zope 3.x cycle to simplify things for the developer. | 17:48 |
| faassen | not a core Zope 3 project, at least mostly not. | 17:48 |
| regebro | Haha! I see I accidentaly stumble into a discussion about exactly the issue that I wanted to talk about! :-) | 17:48 |
| faassen | I hope, that is. | 17:48 |
| faassen | oh, good. :) | 17:48 |
| philiKON | faassen, grok, is it | 17:49 |
| philiKON | ? | 17:49 |
| faassen | yes. | 17:49 |
| philiKON | i have some of my own ideas now :) | 17:49 |
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| philiKON | i think i'll come to coethen for the weekend | 17:49 |
| faassen | philiKON: Halle :) | 17:49 |
| philiKON | ah, right | 17:49 |
| philiKON | they moved | 17:49 |
| faassen | philiKON: they moved. | 17:49 |
| philiKON | dang | 17:49 |
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| faassen | philiKON: right, I'm going to be there. | 17:49 |
| philiKON | yes | 17:49 |
| philiKON | i know :) | 17:49 |
| philiKON | looking forward to that | 17:49 |
| faassen | so you're going to join too? | 17:50 |
| faassen | I hope we can manage to make tasks concrete relatively quickly. | 17:50 |
| regebro | I percieve a conflict between the need to have a consistent and flexible framwork with little overhead, and beature in code, and the need to make it easyto make products. | 17:50 |
| faassen | regebro: let me mail you my grok document. | 17:50 |
| regebro | Exactly. | 17:50 |
| philiKON | faassen, yes, join for the weekend | 17:51 |
| regebro | I talked to faassen about this before (and he said he would mail it) and after talking to JMO and johanc about it, I'm even more convinced. | 17:51 |
| philiKON | i would like to work on the "bobo" end of things :) | 17:51 |
| regebro | We need to create a stack. Where I think Zope3 should be the bottom, grok the next level, and some sort of CMS the top one. :) | 17:52 |
| regebro | Which I hope is exactly what you said here before I arrived. :) | 17:52 |
| rocky | regebro: i disagree, i think we live in a utopia where i can have my cake and eat it too :) | 17:52 |
| regebro | rocky: You do. But most developer don't. :-) | 17:53 |
| rocky | :) | 17:53 |
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| rocky | in a somewhat related note, i'm getting quite tired of the "my language is better than yours, and my web framework is better than yours" discussions in the software industry these days | 17:53 |
| faassen | regebro: I just mailed you two documents. | 17:54 |
| faassen | rocky: you awnt them too? :) | 17:54 |
| faassen | philiKON: I'll mail you the two documents. developer-end and beginner-end. | 17:54 |
| benji | rocky: can't we all just get along? | 17:54 |
| rocky | i like python, i like zope 3, my customers like plone... so i will build some solutions on that where appropriate | 17:54 |
| philiKON | faassen, why not simply check it in somewhere? | 17:54 |
| rocky | faassen: sure thing :) rocky@serverzen.com | 17:54 |
| faassen | philiKON: I don't want it to be public yet. | 17:54 |
| rocky | benji: indeed ;) | 17:54 |
| faassen | philiKON: I'm still mulling. :) | 17:54 |
| philiKON | faassen, aha. | 17:54 |
| philiKON | k | 17:54 |
| philiKON | sure | 17:54 |
| rocky | but seriously... as i pointed on on jmo's latest blog post as a comment... use the tool for the job, don't use stupid zope3 CA for your 15 line py script that has to do something based on a cron event | 17:55 |
| faassen | benji: you want a copy too? :) | 17:56 |
| benji | a copy of what? | 17:56 |
| benji | the complete works of Monty Python? Sure! | 17:56 |
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| rocky | benji: his reasoning for switching to java... *grin* | 17:56 |
| faassen | benji: the documents on making zope 3 easier. Grok. :) | 17:56 |
| faassen | right, I'm going to switch to Java too, JMO convinced me. | 17:56 |
| rocky | lol | 17:56 |
| benji | lol! | 17:56 |
| * benji refrains from commenting on JMO and all that | 17:57 | |
| benji | sure, I'll take a look, faassen, but have very little time for the next couple of months | 17:57 |
| faassen | benji: that's okay. :) | 17:57 |
| faassen | benji: you're smarter than I am. | 17:58 |
| rocky | benji: you're not allowed to read his document without total submission to the direction aforementioned and total dedication to implementation within a 1 month time frame :) | 17:58 |
| faassen | besidse if we comment on him here, our conversation will be in his next blog entry soon. :) | 17:58 |
| benji | heh | 17:58 |
| faassen | like happened with our recent discussion. | 17:58 |
| * rocky didn't realize that | 17:58 | |
| faassen | http://www.z3lab.org/sections/blogs/jean-marc-orliaguet/2006_09_25_slow-train-coming | 17:59 |
| faassen | on the top. | 17:59 |
| rocky | oh right | 18:00 |
| philiKON | faassen, to be fair, he finally wrote something more to the point: http://www.z3lab.org/sections/blogs/jean-marc-orliaguet/2006_09_29_zope-component | 18:00 |
| faassen | regebro: yes, sort of a stack is what we need to repond to your earlier comment. | 18:00 |
| faassen | regebro: though I hope a very flat stack. I don't want grok to be a huge layer on top of zope 3. I want it to be more or less equivalent as a "layer" to what the ZCML configuration layer is . | 18:01 |
| regebro | faassen: Yes, that's pretty much it. | 18:01 |
| philiKON | faassen, one of my recent themes i've been pondering about is "automation vs. magic" | 18:01 |
| philiKON | i think it'd be great if grok would be more automation than magic | 18:01 |
| faassen | philiKON: yes, at least it's concrete. I mean, it's a bit less subtle than I'd like it to be. I mean, as rocky says, I use python primarily and go into the CA when needed for pluggability. | 18:02 |
| faassen | philiKON: at least that's my aim. ZCML forces itself on you a bit too much right now. | 18:02 |
| philiKON | yes | 18:02 |
| philiKON | faassen, well, you were talking about conventions at EP | 18:02 |
| faassen | philiKON: well, what's the difference? automation is perfect, predictable magic. :) | 18:02 |
| philiKON | which are fine | 18:02 |
| philiKON | right | 18:02 |
| faassen | yes, conventions over configuration. | 18:02 |
| philiKON | right | 18:02 |
| philiKON | i would call it "automation over configuration" :0 | 18:03 |
| faassen | magic is generally too smart. | 18:03 |
| regebro | I want BIG HAMMERS. | 18:03 |
| philiKON | right | 18:03 |
| faassen | I don't want grok to be too smart. it needs to fit the brain. | 18:03 |
| philiKON | right@faassen | 18:03 |
| regebro | I was going for big ZCML statements with reasonable defaults. | 18:03 |
| philiKON | regebro, i want python | 18:03 |
| philiKON | basically something like this: | 18:03 |
| regebro | faassen wants python thingamajigs. | 18:03 |
| philiKON | grok(package) | 18:03 |
| rocky | i think reasonable defaults is the single biggest missing concept in zope 2, zope 3 (and plone for us) | 18:03 |
| faassen | regebro: I'm going the other way. now that ZCML statements are so simple, I am trying to make many go away. especially the ones that are just 'on-switches' | 18:03 |
| philiKON | faassen, exactly. | 18:03 |
| regebro | Which way we choose is probably less important, as long as everything is overrideable in some way. | 18:04 |
| regebro | And preferably more than ince. | 18:04 |
| regebro | once. | 18:04 |
| philiKON | faassen, but, please no automagic package findings, etc. | 18:04 |
| faassen | I also think we need higher level components. | 18:04 |
| rocky | formlib is a good example of reasonable defaults, but most of zope3 doesn't use this approach imho | 18:04 |
| faassen | like, a CRUD framework. | 18:04 |
| philiKON | faassen, let's not repeat the magic mistakes of zope 2 | 18:04 |
| philiKON | rocky, yes. formlib is an *excellent* example of automation | 18:04 |
| philiKON | you can customize the hell out of it if you want to | 18:04 |
| regebro | faassen: That I can agree with. Much of the ZCML in the "lower stack" should simply go away. Maybe all of it. | 18:04 |
| philiKON | but often you're fine with a 2 liner | 18:04 |
| faassen | philiKON: I'm not too interested in package finding right now. I mean, I think some automation couldn't hurt there, but that's not something that's my prime goal, so don't get too worried. :) | 18:05 |
| rocky | philiKON: exactly | 18:05 |
| philiKON | faassen, good | 18:05 |
| faassen | though some of formlib is overly complicated. | 18:05 |
| faassen | I mean, try making your own actions. you have to deal with tons of Python magic. | 18:05 |
| philiKON | hmm, yeah, depends | 18:05 |
| faassen | regebro: anyway, we have a sprint at gocept around the weekend of the 14th of october. :) | 18:06 |
| faassen | anyway, making a good pluggable API is an art. | 18:06 |
| faassen | the CA helps. | 18:07 |
| regebro | faassen: Halle/Saale? | 18:07 |
| faassen | regebro: yes, Halle. | 18:07 |
| philiKON | regebro, yup | 18:07 |
| faassen | anyway, to say what JMO pehraps was trying to say, the CA doesn't replace good API design. | 18:08 |
| regebro | So, it's in the hall, not in the room? :-) (sal means big room in Swedish). | 18:08 |
| faassen | regebro: Halle is a town. :) | 18:08 |
| faassen | but yeah, that's a pun or play on words. :) | 18:08 |
| regebro | Where in germany is it? | 18:08 |
| faassen | eastern germany, an hour or so from Berlin. | 18:09 |
| regebro | Hmmm. I suspect I have no time. I'll think about it. | 18:09 |
| faassen | regebro: you should check up with Gocept, I don't know whether they'll have room. :) | 18:10 |
| regebro | OK. | 18:10 |
| faassen | regebro: with me and my wife coming, and now Philipp joining too. :) | 18:10 |
| * philiKON is sleeping on zagy's couch | 18:10 | |
| faassen | regebro: but for all I know they do. anyway, ask them. I can talk to them too if you like. | 18:10 |
| rocky | i had to explain to someone today (a plone developer trying to customize some new zope3 thing in plone) how using the CA doesn't guarantee good design ;) | 18:10 |
| regebro | No, as mentioned, I'll think about it. | 18:10 |
| faassen | regebro: would be cool if you could join. | 18:10 |
| faassen | anyway, this is a good start, so many people potentially interested. :) | 18:11 |
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| faassen | by this time next year who knows what we'll be doing. :) | 18:11 |
| faassen | with whatever gets thought up. | 18:11 |
| regebro | Yup. | 18:13 |
| regebro | Well, I'd like to come, but it's mostly an issue of time. | 18:13 |
| faassen | yes, I understand. | 18:14 |
| faassen | It was just a "Martijn visits Gocept" thing originally. :) | 18:14 |
| regebro | I suspect that I have no time for framworking until january. :) | 18:14 |
| faassen | regebro: it'll takea while before we're ramped up. | 18:14 |
| faassen | anyway, I'm out of here. see you! | 18:15 |
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| benji | rocky: very true; there's a corollary (sp?) too: if you start to write a registry, stop. It's likely you should use utilities or adapters instead. | 18:15 |
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| rocky | benji: right... well for me, when i have a problem i by default assume i'm going to try solving it with python (just happens to be my preferred tool) ... if i'm going to end up designing some architecture, I try to identify some good design patterns i should use... and a lot of those design patterns can be implemented using zope CA pieces (utilities, adapters)... | 18:17 |
| benji | excactly | 18:17 |
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| benji | It'd be cool to collect a set of "if you are about to..." things; "if you're about to drive a nail, find a hammer" ;) | 18:18 |
| rocky | haha, indeed | 18:18 |
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| rocky | "if you need a singleton, you probably should build a utility" | 18:19 |
| rocky | singleton being the design pattern, utility being the zope3 concept that fits quite nicely | 18:19 |
| benji | yep | 18:20 |
| rocky | i have to admit it feels like we're only just now catching up to smalltalk in a lot of respects concerning design patterns and component architectures... ;) | 18:21 |
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| timte | do zope3 come with any content types like news or events? | 22:19 |
| J1m | no | 22:20 |
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| edgordon | timte: seems like those are pretty simple content types. anything particular you are having trouble implementing w/ zope.schema? | 22:52 |
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