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| tjs | anyone got any info on zopeproject and packaging it to deploy zeo + instance? also curious about how people manage a project with zopeproject env, and switch between branches rapidly | 02:00 |
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| romanofski | moin :) | 09:40 |
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| balor | In what distribution of Zope would I find ZODB >3.8.0b1? SVN? | 12:31 |
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| spython | hi, any pointers on how to setup and make a z3 instance's lib/python/mypack play well with svn? | 12:38 |
| spython | somehow instance/lib/python/{trunk,branches,tags} doesn't feel good :) | 12:38 |
| ccomb | balor : http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/Zope340b2 -> http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/controlled-packages.cfg | 12:41 |
| balor | ccomb: much oblidged | 12:43 |
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| dennis__ | how do you replace the "You are not authorized" page which you get if you do something for which you don't have permission, but are already signed in as a certain user and have disabled the re-ask for credentials if already-signed-in ? (if similar to the NotFound, which Interface do I need to look for?) | 14:13 |
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| philiKON_ | dennis__: Unauthorized | 14:20 |
| philiKON_ | write an 'index.html' view for Unauthorized | 14:21 |
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| dennis__ | thanks, will start grepping :) | 14:21 |
| philiKON_ | zope.exceptions | 14:22 |
| philiKON_ | :) | 14:22 |
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| pan_ | hi. | 14:31 |
| dennis__ | philiKON_ works like a charm, though have to set self.context of the view to getSite() to be able to render the error message inside the usual site template (otherwise looks funky) | 14:35 |
| pcardune | hmm, i think I found a dependency bug between zope.securitypolicy and zope.i18nmessageid. The latter should require zope.i18nmessageid>=3.4.3 | 14:38 |
| philiKON | yup | 14:40 |
| philiKON | solved | 14:41 |
| philiKON | ah, wait, zope.securitypolicy | 14:41 |
| philiKON | yes | 14:41 |
| philiKON | i only fixed zope.app.securitypolicy | 14:41 |
| philiKON | must've forgotten to fix zope.securitypolicy | 14:41 |
| philiKON | btw, i think >=3.4.2 is correct | 14:41 |
| pcardune | (I just looked at the version I had on a working setup) | 14:41 |
| philiKON | 3.4.2 is the one that gained the ZopeMessageFactory thing | 14:42 |
| philiKON | unnecessarily i might add | 14:42 |
| pcardune | well, I'm glad that got resolved quickly :) | 14:42 |
| pcardune | open source strikes again! | 14:42 |
| philiKON | well, you should still do a bugfix release for zope.securitypolicy :) | 14:42 |
| philiKON | i only did it for zope.app.securitypolicy | 14:43 |
| pcardune | I don't think I have the required permissions making releases | 14:44 |
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| philiKON | pcardune: that's a cheap excuse :) | 15:04 |
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| regebro | How does one in buildout best add a specific directory to the python-path? | 15:13 |
| regebro | Or alternatively, how does one check out a svn folder full of python libraries? :) | 15:13 |
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| philiKON | there's an option | 15:19 |
| philiKON | look at the buildout docs :) | 15:19 |
| regebro | philiKON: I did, I couldn't find it... Too much docs, not enough pages. :) | 15:24 |
| regebro | I'll try again then. | 15:24 |
| philiKON | it's recipe specific | 15:24 |
| philiKON | i think | 15:24 |
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| regebro | philiKON: Aha. | 15:29 |
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| dennis__ | can I touch the request.locale at the beginning of the request or something similar in order to have all date operations inside that transaction done in a certain timezone ? currently all dates show up as GMT, but I don't want to go and add the timezone string to all places where dates are shown or parsed | 15:34 |
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| philiKON | dennis__: request.local represents the user's preferred locale setting | 15:37 |
| philiKON | it's determined using the IUserPreferredLanguage adapter | 15:37 |
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| dennis__ | yeah, I am defaulting it to the local language already since it is a local site (actually using example from your book) | 15:38 |
| dennis__ | but times show up in GMT | 15:38 |
| dennis__ | (i know locale doesnt contain reliable timezone info) | 15:38 |
| dennis__ | so i would like to default that too | 15:39 |
| philiKON | then hardcode the setting to one locale | 15:39 |
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| dennis__ | so if request.locale it set properly it should already work .. well then i have look for a different reason it doesn't :) | 15:40 |
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| dennis__ | request.locale is correct, request.locale.dates.getFormatter is used to format context/zope:modified which is (2007-11-13 13:05:45.021056+00:00). The modification really took place at 14:05+01:00, and I would like to show the time on the page as 14:05 | 15:47 |
| ccomb | Hi, is there a way to discover what happens during an instance startup? | 15:50 |
| ccomb | it takes a minute to start | 15:50 |
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| ccomb | the zodb takes 800MB, with a BTree filled with 500k tuples | 15:52 |
| ccomb | not a minute, it takes 3 minutes, exactly | 15:53 |
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| benji | ccomb: three minutes exactly, every time? | 16:03 |
| ccomb | benji yes | 16:03 |
| benji | thats suspicious | 16:04 |
| ccomb | 81 secs this time | 16:04 |
| benji | um, that's not three minutes, exactly | 16:04 |
| ccomb | first time it was 175secs, then 81 now | 16:05 |
| benji | no idea, then | 16:05 |
| ccomb | my app is probably suspicious, but I would like to know what happen | 16:05 |
| ccomb | but I need a hint on how to do | 16:06 |
| benji | I'd start by profiling the start up; there's no textbook approach to that though, you'll have to hack some | 16:06 |
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| mgedmin | ccomb: usually what happens is the ZODB reads the whole Data.fs and builds an index | 16:54 |
| ccomb | mgedmin the index is rebuilt at each start? | 16:55 |
| mgedmin | I have the suspicion that if you stop the server with Ctrl-C, ZODB doesn't mark the index file as up-to-date or something like that | 16:55 |
| mgedmin | I might be horribly wrong | 16:55 |
| * ccomb is just going to try that | 16:56 | |
| J1m | mgedmin, you are mostly write. It is more complicated than that. On a clean shutdown, the index is written. I believe that ZEO servers don't do the clean shutdown dance correctly. | 16:57 |
| J1m | Also, the index is written after some number of changes. | 16:57 |
| J1m | Unfortunately, the number of changes rerquired to trigger an index save increases with the size of the database. | 16:58 |
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| J1m | For very large databases, like ours, the index is rarely written. | 16:58 |
| ccomb | you mean "fortunately" :) ? | 16:58 |
| J1m | No, I mean unfortunately. | 16:59 |
| J1m | we want indexes to be written much more frequently. | 16:59 |
| J1m | Fortunmately, indexes are written after packing. | 17:00 |
| J1m | and I think thet are also written on staup with no index. | 17:00 |
| ccomb | I've just checked that my instance still takes 81s to start, and the index has not changed at all | 17:01 |
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| ccomb | it looks like it reads the whole btree while starting | 17:01 |
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| J1m | I doubt your DB is big enough for this to matter. | 17:02 |
| ccomb | it's 800MB | 17:02 |
| J1m | I assume your long start up time is due to processing lots of ZCML. | 17:02 |
| * J1m gets back to work. | 17:02 | |
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| * junkafarian waves | 19:14 | |
| junkafarian | is it possible for me to reference the parent object within the __init__ function of a persistent object class? | 19:16 |
| philiKON | nope, usually not | 19:16 |
| junkafarian | hmz | 19:17 |
| junkafarian | any way around it? | 19:17 |
| philiKON | objects only have parents after they've been added to a container | 19:17 |
| junkafarian | i want child object to inherit some of the parent attributes | 19:17 |
| philiKON | so you should write an IObjectAddedEvent subscriber | 19:17 |
| junkafarian | ok | 19:17 |
| junkafarian | a bit strange that i cant write it in the business logic :( | 19:18 |
| philiKON | huh? | 19:18 |
| philiKON | this *is* business logic | 19:18 |
| philiKON | also, how would an object know its parent before it's even added to a container | 19:18 |
| philiKON | ? | 19:18 |
| junkafarian | sorry, wrong terminology | 19:18 |
| junkafarian | true | 19:19 |
| philiKON | in fact, this is beautiful separation of the stupid data model and business logic that's grouped around it | 19:19 |
| junkafarian | also true | 19:20 |
| junkafarian | i can see how it would lead to a better structure | 19:20 |
| philiKON | though i admit, it's an indirection | 19:21 |
| philiKON | but one that's rather fundamental | 19:21 |
| philiKON | (guessing one's parent during object creation is a bit hard) | 19:21 |
| * junkafarian agrees | 19:22 | |
| philiKON | the only way to solve this properly is to make __init__ take the (future) parent as an argument | 19:22 |
| junkafarian | was just about to say that might be a nice alternative | 19:22 |
| junkafarian | but that would probably require a major refactor of the architecture | 19:23 |
| * junkafarian guesses | 19:23 | |
| * elro wanders how to write a FileDownloadWidget | 19:24 | |
| * ccomb wonders how to write a FileUploadWidget with a progress bar | 19:27 | |
| elro | ccomb: flash / java is necessary for that I think | 19:28 |
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| gstratton_ | I have seen a FileUpload widget with progress bar entirely in ajax | 19:29 |
| gstratton_ | I'm not sure whether it could be wired into Zope, though | 19:30 |
| gstratton_ | it might require some WSGI middleware to intercept the uploads | 19:30 |
| junkafarian | i am using http://uber-uploader.sourceforge.net/ | 19:31 |
| junkafarian | definitely not a widget though | 19:31 |
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| xenru | Hi, all | 19:33 |
| xenru | philiKON: r u here? | 19:33 |
| ccomb | elro gstratton_ junkafarian : there is some very interesting things here : http://svn.zope.org/zope3org/trunk/src/zorg/live/demo/upload/ | 19:35 |
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| * junkafarian nods | 19:37 | |
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| rocky | a bit off-topic i know, but has anyone here ever used easy_install to install an egg from an svn url where the svn repo is preotected by apache basic auth? standard http://someuser:somepass@myhost.com/svn/repo/eggpackage doesn't work | 20:31 |
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| J1m | oh lord | 20:50 |
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| * benji thinks J1m was just attacked by a troup of ninjas. | 20:52 | |
| * philiKON thought J1m ran out of cheese | 20:53 | |
| * J1m was reacting to rocky's question. | 20:54 | |
| rocky | lol | 20:54 |
| rocky | i got it working in fact -- the problem was i was using a password bash-unfriendly chars ;) | 20:55 |
| mgedmin | you could *probably* svn checkout and pass the pathname to easy_install | 20:55 |
| mgedmin | ah | 20:55 |
| * mgedmin too late | 20:55 | |
| philiKON | what mgedmin says works, btw | 20:55 |
| * benji wonders how philiKON knows about the error message on our printer. | 20:56 | |
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| srichter | rocky: lovely has developed some recipe or so to use http auth | 20:59 |
| srichter | but I think it is buildout-specific | 20:59 |
| rocky | ah | 20:59 |
| rocky | gotcha | 20:59 |
| * srichter needs to figure this out soon too | 21:00 | |
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| mcdonc | srichter, J1m: a policy/intent question... is it a desire that people be able to install zope.* distributions from the cheeseshop selectively using easy_install? | 21:44 |
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| srichter | mcdonc: for packages that do not have many dependencies, such as zope.interface, zope.event, zoep.component, etc. yes | 21:47 |
| mcdonc | srichter: so the dependency info in distributions that are not meant to be installed this way isnt being maintained, then? | 21:48 |
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| mcdonc | (e.g. the zope.pagetemplate distro, each zope.app.* distro) | 21:49 |
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| philiKON | mcdonc: sure is | 22:00 |
| philiKON | i'm not sure i totally agree with srichter's statement | 22:00 |
| philiKON | i think if people want to install zope3 apps using easy_install, it should be possible | 22:01 |
| philiKON | and all the dependencies should be installed propery | 22:01 |
| philiKON | properly even | 22:01 |
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| mcdonc | philiKON: ok... fwiw, i wrote a bot that checks out the trunk of each top-level module in svn.zope.org and runs "setup.py install" in the checkout, and there are more things that can't be installed than can be currently (mostly due to a single dependency bug i think...).. these aren't just "unmaintained" things.. for instance, very few of the zope.app checkouts can be installed... i'm writing up a message to zope-dev about it | 22:03 |
| philiKON | ok, thanks | 22:03 |
| philiKON | i'm surprised they don't work | 22:03 |
| philiKON | buildout should be equivalent here in terms of dependencies | 22:03 |
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| mcdonc | philiKON: i was just trying to figure out if this is a bug or a feature ;-) | 22:06 |
| philiKON | i consider this a bug | 22:06 |
| mcdonc | whew ;-) | 22:06 |
| ccomb | sorry for disturbing, but I have a big memory problem: an OOBtree in the ZODB, which contains 500k tuples. By just calculating the size or returning the keys, the memory usage raises a lot and never gets released. Just like the whole btree remains in memory for ever. | 22:09 |
| ccomb | and the machine happily swaps until death | 22:10 |
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| ccomb | is there something I'm missing about btrees or zodb ? | 22:12 |
| hazmat | ccomb, btree's don't keep length very efficiently afaicr, you should use a separate persistent object to trac that | 22:13 |
| philiKON | yup. there's a Length object, iirc | 22:14 |
| ccomb | it's not just with the length, I'm in debugzope and doing list(btree.keys) does the same | 22:14 |
| philiKON | hehe | 22:14 |
| philiKON | of course it does | 22:14 |
| philiKON | you're waking up 500k tuples into memory | 22:14 |
| philiKON | *all at once* | 22:14 |
| J1m | mcdonc, I agree with philiKON I want people to install Zope 3 packages using easy install. | 22:15 |
| ccomb | So how should I ask them to go to bed again ? | 22:15 |
| J1m | Of course, I want lots of things. :) | 22:15 |
| philiKON | ccomb: don't wake them up in the first place | 22:15 |
| philiKON | i doubt you need all 500k of them at once | 22:15 |
| ccomb | unfortunately I do | 22:16 |
| philiKON | what for? | 22:16 |
| ccomb | how can I compute the length? | 22:16 |
| ccomb | it's the same if I loop to get every item separately | 22:17 |
| philiKON | no it's not | 22:17 |
| hazmat | you should track the length as you modify | 22:18 |
| philiKON | if you loop over the btree (for x in btree), it'll discard objects later | 22:18 |
| ccomb | I already do that | 22:18 |
| hazmat | typically a separate container class to encapsulate the data structure and api | 22:18 |
| mcdonc | J1m: roger... | 22:18 |
| ccomb | for i in btree.keys: a=btree[i] | 22:18 |
| philiKON | first of all, keys() is a method | 22:18 |
| benji | ccomb: you can keep the length seperately, no need to calculate it afresh every time | 22:18 |
| hazmat | afaicr, you need python 2.5 to release memory back to the os | 22:18 |
| philiKON | no, i think py2.5 just does it more efficiently... | 22:19 |
| hazmat | """- Patch #1123430: Python's small-object allocator now returns an arena to | 22:20 |
| hazmat | the system ``free()`` when all memory within an arena becomes unused | 22:20 |
| hazmat | again. Prior to Python 2.5, arenas (256KB chunks of memory) were never | 22:20 |
| hazmat | freed. Some applications will see a drop in virtual memory size now, | 22:20 |
| hazmat | especially long-running applications that, from time to time, temporarily | 22:20 |
| hazmat | use a large number of small objects. Note that when Python returns an | 22:20 |
| hazmat | arena to the platform C's ``free()``, there's no guarantee that the | 22:20 |
| philiKON | ccomb: look at how zope.app.container 3.5.x does bookeping with the length | 22:20 |
| hazmat | platform C library will in turn return that memory to the operating system. | 22:20 |
| hazmat | The effect of the patch is to stop making that impossible, and in tests it | 22:20 |
| hazmat | appears to be effective at least on Microsoft C and gcc-based systems.""" | 22:20 |
| philiKON | hazmat: dude... | 22:20 |
| hazmat | yeah.. yeah.. minor flood.. | 22:20 |
| hazmat | couldn't link to it effectively | 22:20 |
| philiKON | anyway, no need to iterate over btree.keys(), you can iterate over mappings directly | 22:21 |
| philiKON | for key in btree | 22:21 |
| ccomb | philiKON ok I think it's the second time I get into this problem of many small objects | 22:21 |
| philiKON | now, if you're doing x = btree[key] in the loop, it's much more efficient to use items(), i believe | 22:21 |
| philiKON | for key, x in btree.items() | 22:22 |
| ccomb | even if I read every single item of the btree? | 22:22 |
| philiKON | yup | 22:23 |
| philiKON | for key in btree: will basically traverse the btree structure | 22:23 |
| philiKON | when you're doing btree[key] inside the loop then, it'll have to traverse it *again* | 22:23 |
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| ccomb | ok thanks a lot, I'll try and improve my loops | 22:24 |
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| spython | hi, i checked out a zope package from svn. Is there easy way to know make egg of this? Not a binary egg, but one which has src/ and EGG-INFO/ in it | 22:40 |
| ccomb | spython have you read all the PEAK docs? | 22:42 |
| spython | hmm, not all. but from where i look it says how to make a binary egg (setup.py bdist_egg) | 22:43 |
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| philiKON | spython: python setup.py bdist_egg | 23:18 |
| philiKON | RTFM setuptools :) | 23:18 |
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| mcdonc | srichter, J1m, philiKON: see "egg bot install results" message on zope-dev re: easy_install vs. zope eggs | 23:41 |
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| spython | philiKON: hehe, I will! | 23:43 |
| srichter | mcdonc: do you want answers here? | 23:43 |
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| mcdonc | srichter: whatever works for ya... | 23:43 |
| srichter | mcdonc: the reason it works for buildout is (a) that some buildout.cfg files specify versions, such as zope.traversing=3.4.0 | 23:44 |
| philiKON | no they don't | 23:44 |
| srichter | (b) they use the KGS | 23:44 |
| philiKON | ah, buildout.fg | 23:44 |
| philiKON | sorry | 23:44 |
| srichter | philiKON: some packages do | 23:44 |
| philiKON | the conflict mcdonc is seeing is the result of some premature release hiatus | 23:44 |
| srichter | yep | 23:44 |
| srichter | I just stated the reason why it works in buildout | 23:45 |
| philiKON | having spoken to the person who was responsible, we all agree that those releases should never have been made | 23:45 |
| philiKON | it *is* however terribly hard to resolve conflicts with setuptools | 23:45 |
| philiKON | because it has no conflict resolution whatsoever | 23:45 |
| philiKON | the setup is always this: | 23:45 |
| xenru | philiKON: hi | 23:46 |
| philiKON | A requires B which requires any version of C | 23:46 |
| philiKON | so some version of C gets installed | 23:46 |
| philiKON | A also requires D which requires C >= x.y | 23:46 |
| srichter | right | 23:46 |
| philiKON | and the >= x.y qualifier may be in conflict with that any version of C that was installed earlier on | 23:46 |
| philiKON | basically, setuptools installs blindly, and doesn't resolve first | 23:47 |
| srichter | yep | 23:47 |
| philiKON | that said, it's what we have to work with | 23:48 |
| philiKON | and we *should* | 23:48 |
| philiKON | so we should find a way around that | 23:48 |
| mcdonc | would it be heresy to suggest that whatever base package we're getting that requires zope.traversing say "zope.traversing >= 3.4.0, <= 3.4.99" | 23:48 |
| mcdonc | in install_requires | 23:48 |
| srichter | mcdonc: specifying versions in setup.py has a lot of problems; see recent discussions | 23:49 |
| philiKON | specifying '==' in setup.py creates problems | 23:50 |
| srichter | philiKON: even if the release of zope.traversing 3.5.0dev was not a mistake, we woul dhave this problem | 23:50 |
| philiKON | srichter: yup, but we could be more careful | 23:50 |
| philiKON | we still need the >= qualifiers in setup.py | 23:50 |
| mcdonc | srichter: i understand the desire to not put version #'s in reuirements given the KGS stuff, but how's it any worse than specifying them in buildout.cfg? | 23:50 |
| srichter | I totally disagree | 23:50 |
| philiKON | i suppose the <= qualifiers are necessary sometimes too | 23:50 |
| srichter | versions should not be in buildout.cfg either | 23:51 |
| philiKON | srichter: the bug we had with zope.app.securitypolicy (and zope.securitypolicy btw) demonstrated this nicely | 23:51 |
| philiKON | but we already had this discussion | 23:51 |
| philiKON | IMO, setup.py needs to contain all intrinsic dependency information | 23:51 |
| srichter | the problem is that as soon as we are maintaining versions in the packages, we are in the business of releasing | 23:51 |
| philiKON | and if dependency X is needed in at least version x.y, then it should say X >=x.y | 23:51 |
| srichter | and we simply do not have the manpower to constantly release packages | 23:51 |
| philiKON | i don't understand how we would do more releases than we do now | 23:52 |
| srichter | what if someone backports a fix, and now x-1.z is working as well? | 23:52 |
| srichter | he has to go through all packages that list X as a requirement and add that statement | 23:52 |
| J1m | mcdonc, version requirements for library packages should be as loose as possible, so we really want to avoid setting them there. | 23:53 |
| J1m | mcdonc, setting upper limits is especially problematic. | 23:53 |
| srichter | the nicest part about the KGS is that releasing a new working configuration is a matter of uploading one file | 23:53 |
| philiKON | J1m: but what about the lower limit in case of a new feature? | 23:53 |
| mcdonc | J1m: yup... agreed. But maybe these things shouldn't get uploaded to cheeseshop and should just be part of a kgs then... | 23:53 |
| J1m | well, that is necessary and shouldn't cause a problem. | 23:54 |
| philiKON | J1m: thanks, just wanted to know | 23:54 |
| J1m | It's the upper limit that is problematic. | 23:54 |
| philiKON | right, i agree | 23:54 |
| J1m | which is why we really need to avoid backward incompat. | 23:54 |
| srichter | J1m: have you read Roger's argument? I think he makes a great case on why even a lower limit is a problem for us | 23:54 |
| gstratton_ | srichter: Hi, what about people using zope packages outside of zope. Surely they need version requirements? | 23:55 |
| J1m | srichter, lower limits are often unavoidable. | 23:55 |
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| J1m | gstratton_, if there is a true requirement, then sure. | 23:55 |
| srichter | J1m: but that removes a subset of working combinations | 23:55 |
| philiKON | missing lower limits can actually cause bugs, like the one we had with zope.app.securitypolicy. it was accepting any version of zope.i18nmessageid while it clearly needed at least 3.4.2 | 23:56 |
| srichter | of course you could claim that the benefits outweigh the downsides | 23:56 |
| J1m | so I guess that some package set an upper limit on zope.traversing. | 23:56 |
| J1m | I wonder why. | 23:56 |
| J1m | srichter, that's unavoidable. Using a KGS removes a subset of working combinations too. | 23:56 |
| philiKON | srichter: but zope.app.securitypolicy simply won't work with zope.i18nmessageid <3.4.2. hence we need to make sure that it can't be installed that way | 23:57 |
| srichter | J1m: yep, I agree, but you then have the freedom to create your own KGS | 23:57 |
| srichter | J1m: by limiting the set in setup.py you globally remove the posibilities | 23:57 |
| J1m | Did someone make a backward incompatible change to zope.traversing? | 23:57 |
| srichter | (mmh, or could we teach buildout to ignore setup.py version specificatins) | 23:58 |
| J1m | srichter, you really have no choice, sometimes, you just know that certain versions don't work,. | 23:58 |
| srichter | J1m: I totally understand your argument | 23:58 |
| mcdonc | srichter: if you do that, please dont upload the resulting eggs to the cheese shop | 23:58 |
| J1m | Did someone make a backward incompatible change to zope.traversing? :) | 23:58 |
| srichter | J1m: but the problem comes into play if a lower is made to work later | 23:58 |
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| srichter | J1m: zope.traversing; no | 23:59 |
| J1m | then why did someone set an upper bound on it? | 23:59 |
| srichter | J1m: see philiKON's explanation above | 23:59 |
| srichter | I don't think anyone did | 23:59 |
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