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| xkenneth | anyone mind helping me with macros and page templates? | 00:11 |
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| srichter | xkenneth: shoot | 00:12 |
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| malthe | what's a good way to do benchmarks? i have this idea of a buildout that will set up a bin/benchmark script which will output some results. --- does this sound familiar? | 18:18 |
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| srichter | malthe: what type of benchmarks do you want to do | 18:19 |
| malthe | srichter: specifically I want to both bench z3c.pt and compare the results to for instance zope.pagetemplate. | 18:20 |
| srichter | using the debug mode in zopectl I useually profile things quickly | 18:20 |
| srichter | malthe: I think the testrunner supports profiling | 18:20 |
| malthe | right it does | 18:20 |
| srichter | so I would use its output | 18:20 |
| malthe | hmm | 18:21 |
| srichter | malthe: btw, z3c.pt versus zope.pagetemplate becomes only interesting once you support all the features :-) | 18:21 |
| malthe | I support all interesting features :-) | 18:21 |
| srichter | at least I would want to see the use of the Zope TALES engine | 18:22 |
| srichter | well you only have python expressions right? | 18:22 |
| malthe | using Zope's TALES engine makes no sense; it's not optimized at all. | 18:22 |
| srichter | well, but everyone is using it | 18:23 |
| srichter | in fact, I never use Python expressions | 18:23 |
| malthe | true | 18:23 |
| srichter | because they are evil | 18:23 |
| malthe | that's a funny statement from a Python-programmer | 18:23 |
| srichter | no, it is not | 18:23 |
| malthe | but I understand the sentiment | 18:23 |
| srichter | templates are not the place to have python logic | 18:24 |
| srichter | that's what Python view classes are for | 18:24 |
| malthe | who said logic? | 18:24 |
| srichter | any python code is logic :-) | 18:24 |
| malthe | 5 + 5 | 18:24 |
| malthe | 'column-%d' % col_number | 18:24 |
| srichter | which does not belong into the template | 18:25 |
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| philiKON | if you prepare everything in the view code and give the page template every single piece of information as a variable, you no longer need TALES | 18:25 |
| philiKON | hence you have no logic in zpts | 18:26 |
| philiKON | (also referred to as the 'push' model) | 18:26 |
| malthe | right; I'd add that it's left to the template developer to put logic into it. I'm not encouraging it by making it possible. | 18:26 |
| malthe | you can also write spaghetti-code with Python; but why would you? | 18:27 |
| srichter | malthe: yes you do :-) whether you intend to or not | 18:27 |
| philiKON | perhaps you can make the 'path' function available | 18:27 |
| malthe | I thought about that | 18:27 |
| malthe | it's very possible to add TALES support, but is it worth the effort? is it where we want to go? | 18:28 |
| srichter | the TALES engine does a lot of things right that I expect to work | 18:28 |
| srichter | security is one thing and I18n another | 18:28 |
| philiKON | like? | 18:28 |
| malthe | srichter: I do i18n. | 18:28 |
| philiKON | i18n is not part of tales | 18:28 |
| philiKON | i18n is part of the tal interpreter | 18:28 |
| srichter | nope | 18:28 |
| srichter | its part of the engine | 18:28 |
| malthe | at any rate, i18n is fully supported by z3c.pt. | 18:29 |
| srichter | when the tales engine sees an i18n message it translates | 18:29 |
| philiKON | srichter: the engine just has the translate() method | 18:29 |
| malthe | philiKON: you still owe me a monkey-less approach to z3c.jbot btw | 18:29 |
| philiKON | srichter: grepping for i18n in zope.tales yields nothing... | 18:30 |
| philiKON | malthe: yes yes :) | 18:30 |
| malthe | the plone people seem to want to include it in the next release, so I welcome any input | 18:30 |
| philiKON | can we change the name? | 18:30 |
| malthe | certainly | 18:30 |
| malthe | but I think they want to call it plone dot something | 18:30 |
| philiKON | anyway, to be honest, i think jbot is... hmmm... | 18:30 |
| philiKON | i favour grok's approach | 18:31 |
| malthe | right, lame | 18:31 |
| malthe | it's symptom treatment | 18:31 |
| philiKON | exactly | 18:31 |
| malthe | but with Plone, most things are | 18:31 |
| philiKON | that's a poor excuse | 18:31 |
| philiKON | anyway, it won't go into 3.1, right? | 18:31 |
| malthe | it would if I get it done, yes. | 18:32 |
| * philiKON doesn't understand the scope 3.1 yet | 18:32 | |
| philiKON | ok | 18:32 |
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| malthe | so why do we not like it; probably because it's a bit strange to change the behavior of the page template object in that way. | 18:32 |
| philiKON | yes | 18:33 |
| philiKON | well, monkeys are so evil | 18:34 |
| philiKON | especially when you actually bless it for production code | 18:34 |
| philiKON | perhaps it's time optilude and i sat down together and looked at bringing some grok principles to plone | 18:34 |
| malthe | +1 | 18:34 |
| philiKON | i should have some time in march | 18:34 |
| malthe | I tire of the Zope 2/CMF codebase; Plone suffers a lot from being based on it. | 18:36 |
| malthe | It's funny to follow a request all the way through the code | 18:36 |
| philiKON | shrug :) | 18:36 |
| philiKON | repoze streamlines several scary bits in the zpublisher at least | 18:36 |
| philiKON | the next thing is the security system | 18:37 |
| malthe | right | 18:37 |
| philiKON | talking about security, i don't see how z3c.pt is less secure than tales, btw | 18:37 |
| philiKON | i mean, tales in its z3 incarnation does do security proxying | 18:37 |
| malthe | I guess the idea of implicit object publishing was a bit lame although it probably sounded great. | 18:37 |
| philiKON | yeah | 18:38 |
| malthe | with z3c.pt there's no distinction between view and template. | 18:38 |
| malthe | there's no filter. | 18:38 |
| philiKON | right | 18:38 |
| philiKON | but at least in z3 land, views only get proxied objects | 18:38 |
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| philiKON | so the template sees the same that the view sees | 18:39 |
| philiKON | in zope 2 land, that's different obviously | 18:39 |
| malthe | right that must be true although I don't know the specifics. | 18:39 |
| malthe | I don't see why templates need special attention though; they're filesystem based. | 18:40 |
| philiKON | well in zope 2 land you need to recompile python code using RestrictedPython to change all getattr calls to use security checks | 18:40 |
| philiKON | well | 18:40 |
| philiKON | you still want to do security checks | 18:40 |
| malthe | that could be supported relatively easy though by manipulating the AST. | 18:40 |
| philiKON | shrug :) | 18:41 |
| malthe | but I think it's up to the developer to do the proper checks in the view. | 18:41 |
| malthe | the template really should not do any nasty calls, especially not any calls with side-effects. | 18:41 |
| philiKON | well, it's sorta the point of zope's security system to do that for you | 18:41 |
| philiKON | well, i''m talking about things like | 18:41 |
| philiKON | tal:content="context.foo" | 18:41 |
| philiKON | if the 'foo' property is protected, then it should raise Unauthorized | 18:42 |
| malthe | I suppose it should yes. | 18:42 |
| philiKON | in z3 land, that's no problem b/c 'context' is proxied | 18:42 |
| malthe | gotcha---and we can't do that in zope 2? | 18:42 |
| philiKON | in zope2 land, we have RestrictedPython to recompile 'context.foo' to safe_getattr(context, 'foo') | 18:42 |
| philiKON | or something of the sort | 18:42 |
| philiKON | well, changing the z2 security system to NOT rely on RestrictedPython is probably the last major thing to achieve in reuniting the zopes | 18:43 |
| malthe | could also bring us to python 2.5 | 18:43 |
| philiKON | exactly | 18:44 |
| malthe | so I suppose that's not something for z3c.pt to worry about. | 18:44 |
| philiKON | indeed it's not | 18:44 |
| philiKON | i'm just thinking out loud mostly :) | 18:44 |
| malthe | it probably won't be adopted anyway, and if it would, it'd be late enough for this work to have been completed. | 18:45 |
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| malthe | philiKON: but concretely, grok or not, Plone comes with a bunch of templates and the challenge is to make it easy to customize them. | 18:47 |
| philiKON | yep | 18:47 |
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