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| Count-Duckula | hello | 19:18 |
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| regebro | Heh, so faassen got tired of debating and started dictating instead. :) Probably a wise move. | 21:37 |
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| srichter | regebro: definitely | 21:39 |
| regebro | srichter: Personally I still thing a steering group is unnecessary, and that PyCon would have showed that. | 21:40 |
| regebro | I'm sure he and chrism would agree once they are in the same room. :) | 21:41 |
| regebro | But too late now. :-/ | 21:41 |
| srichter | regebro: it is not about him versus chrism | 21:42 |
| srichter | it is about coordinating the management of the core packages that so many of us rely on on a daily basis | 21:42 |
| regebro | Yeah, but the disagreements only was two: chrism who didn't want a core package set (I still don't understand why), and a couple of people (including me) who didn't see the need for a steering group. | 21:43 |
| regebro | So it seems the steering groups work currently is to coordinate the fact that chrism doesn't want to be involved the a Framework KGS. :) | 21:44 |
| regebro | A steering group for that seems a bit overkill. | 21:44 |
| regebro | :) | 21:44 |
| srichter | ok, I do not want to roll up the discussion again; I am glad we are going to have this group, which every OS community without a BDFL has | 21:44 |
| regebro | Hasn't been much discussion about that at all IMO. Since the willingness to listen to arguments about this has been so low, there should not have been a proposal, it should have just been done. Pretending to listen to arguments is worse than just doing what seems necessary. | 21:47 |
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| sm | regebro: I don't agree that arguments weren't listened to. It seemed all those with substance were seriously engaged with. | 21:51 |
| sm | I definitely appreciate the discussion before the unilateral action :), it makes the latter stronger | 21:52 |
| regebro | sm: Answering" Yes we need the group, because we need it, which proves we need it" is not actually listening.... | 21:53 |
| regebro | I do realize that if we had a serious disagreement about an issue, this group would have been needed in the absensce of a BDFL. | 21:54 |
| mcdonc | mostly i just disagree with the diagnosis of the problem... (a lack of consensus requires a need for more centralized planning) | 21:54 |
| mcdonc | but i said my peave | 21:54 |
| mcdonc | ce | 21:54 |
| regebro | mcdonc: but there isn't even a lack of consensus. :) | 21:55 |
| mcdonc | well yeah | 21:55 |
| mcdonc | there's that too | 21:55 |
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| regebro | But fine, that just means the group doesn't have anything to do, which isn't a problem. | 21:56 |
| sm | there's a lack of something. Well, the ZFSG is going to have a go at having a positive impact, more power to them | 21:56 |
| regebro | sm: Well, there has been lack of leadership. That clearly is not lacking anymore. :) | 21:56 |
| sm | we'll see | 21:58 |
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| regebro | But, as I say, if there are loads of people behind you, you are likely not leading, but in the way. :-D | 21:58 |
| sm | I think you like saying that :) | 21:59 |
| regebro | I do. I think it's Verrrry cleverrr. | 21:59 |
| * sm grins | 21:59 | |
| sm | got another for you.. if you point a finger at someone, you've got three pointing right back! | 22:00 |
| sm | no deep meaning intended here, its just for enjoyment :) | 22:01 |
| ktwilight | you guys should have it in a wiki and list things out to keep the picture clear, rather than have it spotty around the ML. that's how i'd do it to make some sort of a decision or get an idea on possible directions. | 22:02 |
| srichter | ktwilight: we do that for proposals, etc. It still does not address the decision making process | 22:02 |
| ktwilight | i see it as a problem of information gathering, purpose and objectives, before making any decision. IMHO, it's easier to make a decision when the picture is clear. at the moment, it doesn't seem the case | 22:04 |
| ktwilight | though i may be completely wrong | 22:04 |
| regebro | srichter: But we might want to have a "ZEP" system. | 22:05 |
| ktwilight | being clear to a handful of people isn't gonna help, btw. | 22:05 |
| regebro | sm: I also like saying "I thought I could organize freedom. How Scandinavian of me." Also relevant in this case. | 22:06 |
| mcdonc | the cynic in me believes a "steering group" can be accurately defined as "a mechanism that makes it possible for individuals to do nothing while simultaneously discouraging other individuals from doing something in an official manner" | 22:11 |
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