| mgedmin | meeting in 30 mins? | 16:32 |
|---|---|---|
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| Theuni1 | yup | 16:34 |
| sm | reckon so | 16:34 |
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| sm | great idea Theuni1 | 16:37 |
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| incubaton | hello | 16:43 |
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| Theuni1 | sm: thanks. let's see how this works out ;) | 16:48 |
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| incubaton | is anyone could help me with kss stuff ? | 16:50 |
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| betabug | incubaton: you probably want to ask in #plone | 16:51 |
| incubaton | betabug: ok :) | 16:51 |
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| betabug | oh, and probably you want to ask a question, not just ask if someone can help | 16:52 |
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| incubaton | betabug: i don't want to disturb this chat if no one can help, i fould help on #plone so you helped me, thx betabug | 16:58 |
| betabug | no problem, you're welcome! | 16:59 |
| * Theuni1 takes a chair | 16:59 | |
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| * Theuni1 distributes coffee to everyone in the channel | 17:00 | |
| mgedmin | is the agenda posted somewhere on the web? | 17:00 |
| mcdonc | where's the beer | 17:00 |
| Theuni1 | Yes | 17:00 |
| * Theuni1 throws a crate towards mcdonc | 17:00 | |
| hannosch | first time I'm in this channel - I'm the noob :) | 17:01 |
| pyqwer | Hi all! | 17:01 |
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| Theuni1 | So, everybody. Let's start with the experiment of having developer IRC meetings here. | 17:01 |
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| * Theuni1 pokes hannosch in the eye | 17:01 | |
| Theuni1 | The agenda is in the archive of the mailinglist. See here: https://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2010-March/039633.html | 17:01 |
| betabug | right here? | 17:01 |
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| * mgedmin wonders if the channel is logged | 17:01 | |
| Theuni1 | right here. | 17:01 |
| betabug | fun :-) | 17:01 |
| Theuni1 | betabug: we thought we take it out in the public ;) | 17:01 |
| betabug | good idea! | 17:01 |
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| Theuni1 | Does anybody have comments about the agenda? | 17:02 |
| pyqwer | Seems o.k. to me. | 17:02 |
| pyqwer | Unclear about Zope 3.5 <-> BlueBream, though. | 17:02 |
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| Theuni1 | Ok, lets go. | 17:03 |
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| Theuni1 | Issue: test runners/nightly builds | 17:03 |
| Theuni1 | Alan Runyan asked to talk about this and I'm interested in it myself. | 17:03 |
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| Theuni1 | I think we have regular test runs for Zope 2, but everything else is in the dark. | 17:04 |
| hannosch | we have a lot of them in various shapes as listed at http://docs.zope.org/zopetoolkit/process/buildbots.html | 17:04 |
| mgedmin | zope 3.4 kgs has nightly test runs, but since it doesn't change, those are a bit pointless | 17:04 |
| Theuni1 | ah | 17:04 |
| baijum | Where is Zope 2 build running ? | 17:04 |
| mgedmin | I'm willing to set up more buildbots, if somebody helps me figure out how to run the relevant test suites | 17:05 |
| hannosch | zope2 is on lurker's private server | 17:05 |
| Theuni1 | hannosch: the last two seem broken | 17:05 |
| hannosch | the zope2/cmf/plone stuff is all custom scripts and not buildbots | 17:05 |
| baijum | There was one for BlueBream here: http://zope3.afpy.org/buildbot/ (but server is down now) | 17:06 |
| MacYET2 | hi | 17:06 |
| srichter | mgedmin: great offer; I think you should link up with bajium | 17:06 |
| Theuni1 | so we're definitely missing regular runs of the ztk packages and the whole compatibility enchilada, right? | 17:06 |
| Theuni1 | also, the mails that go to the zope-dev mailinglist seem to only cover zope 2 | 17:06 |
| hannosch | the health agency one basically runs all http://dev.thehealthagency.com/buildbot/waterfall | 17:06 |
| srichter | baijum: Marius (mgedmin) has been running buildbots for a long time very reliably and it would be one less headache for you | 17:07 |
| baijum | A single Build master would be enough for all projects ? | 17:07 |
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| baijum | srichter: ah. cool | 17:07 |
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| Theuni1 | hannosch: ah, they seem to have integrated builds | 17:07 |
| mgedmin | just share your master.cfg's and I'll see what I can do | 17:07 |
| RUNYAGAs | just start? | 17:07 |
| baijum | RUNYAGAs: just few minutes.. | 17:08 |
| hannosch | the main thing this needs is someone coordinating it - we have enough servers | 17:08 |
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| Theuni1 | hannosch: right. | 17:08 |
| * Theuni1 looks for someone to label "Da buildbot man" | 17:08 | |
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| * srichter wants to appoint mgedmin, but waits for him to volunteer :-) | 17:09 | |
| Theuni1 | heh | 17:09 |
| RUNYAGAs | might have someone at enfold put me down for details | 17:09 |
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| * mgedmin is unsure what that position entails | 17:09 | |
| betabug | free drinks from me, when you come here on vacation! :-) | 17:09 |
| Theuni1 | mgedmin: i think it needs someone to hunt after dead builders and keep an overview whether we have enough. | 17:09 |
| srichter | ok, that's a valid question: what does the buildbot guy have to do? | 17:09 |
| Theuni1 | and help people set up new ones | 17:09 |
| baijum | We need 64 bit Windows & Linux slaves now ... | 17:09 |
| TresEquis | who has the list of buildslaves available? | 17:09 |
| * mgedmin has 64-bit Linux slaves | 17:09 | |
| * mgedmin has no Windows slaves | 17:09 | |
| RUNYAGAs | we have windoz | 17:10 |
| Theuni1 | TresEquis: that list is kinda unobvious because we have multiple buildbot installations | 17:10 |
| baijum | RUNYAGAs: 64 bit ? | 17:10 |
| RUNYAGAs | yes | 17:10 |
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| * mgedmin announces irc logs for this channel at http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs-zope | 17:10 | |
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| Theuni1 | mgedmin: i think the actual amount of work for the buildbot volunteer would be to help tame the various installations match our requirements. it looks like the actual buildbot installations we find individual helpers for. | 17:12 |
| srichter | Theuni1: ok, so the buildbot man should maintain the build master and nag people about build slaves | 17:12 |
| Theuni1 | srichter: well, and maybe help people install separate masters | 17:12 |
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| baijum | I would suggest to use http://pypi.python.org/pypi/collective.buildbot to setup slaves | 17:12 |
| srichter | Theuni1: right | 17:12 |
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| srichter | BTW, the Python guys also went with one Buildbot czar now, since it did not work out with a group | 17:13 |
| Theuni1 | right. he still has others supporting him, right? | 17:13 |
| mgedmin | so what would the testing be about? ZTK? Zope 2? Bluebream? All of the above? | 17:13 |
| srichter | Theuni1: yes, but he does exactely what you are proposing | 17:13 |
| Theuni1 | mgedmin: I think we need to care for the whole "zope-dev" | 17:14 |
| Theuni1 | srichter: ah | 17:14 |
| hannosch | mgedmin: I think we should coordinate testing on Zope projects, that includes Grok and Zope2 | 17:14 |
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| Theuni1 | right. one of the points of the dev meeting here is to get us all to talk more to each other and help us do stuff. | 17:14 |
| hannosch | we can aggregate all the details into one mail to zope-dev per day | 17:14 |
| TresEquis | "cool kids" at PyCon seem to want to run Hudson | 17:14 |
| Theuni1 | right | 17:14 |
| baijum | Python many many masters: http://www.python.org/dev/buildbot/ | 17:14 |
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| TresEquis | http://hudson-ci.org/ | 17:15 |
| Theuni1 | TresEquis: yeah, i looked at hudson and i liked it a lot. for some reason i'm avoiding a tool discussion ;) | 17:15 |
| TresEquis | OK | 17:15 |
| * mgedmin has the unfortunate tendency to assume many responsibilities and then crash under the load | 17:15 | |
| Theuni1 | but you're right. hudson *is* awesome. | 17:15 |
| baijum | One master for each project ? | 17:15 |
| Theuni1 | if *i* would take over the nightly build responsibility, i'd look into hudson ;) | 17:15 |
| Theuni1 | mgedmin: how about this: we postpone the details until next week, and you ponder it until then? | 17:16 |
| baijum | buildbot.zope.org/zope2 buildbot.zope.org/ztk buildbot.zope.org/grok etc. | 17:16 |
| ccomb | I will try to set up a new buildbot tonight or tomorrow, until the previous one can be restored | 17:16 |
| ccomb | for the ZTK and bluebream | 17:16 |
| mgedmin | Theuni1, fine, I'm always in favour of postponement ;) | 17:16 |
| srichter | Theuni1: and collect over the next week the projects and branches we want to support in the buildbot | 17:16 |
| Theuni1 | srichter: right | 17:17 |
| Theuni1 | ok | 17:17 |
| Theuni1 | next topic | 17:17 |
| Theuni1 | ZTK open issues | 17:17 |
| Theuni1 | That's kinda fuzzy. :) | 17:17 |
| Theuni1 | We have some open ends since Martijn dropped out of the steering group. | 17:17 |
| baijum | most of them are still part of Zope 3: https://launchpad.net/zope3 | 17:17 |
| * mgedmin wants every ZTK and zope.* package to have its own bug tracker on launchpad | 17:17 | |
| Theuni1 | And I can't even really remember all of them. | 17:17 |
| Theuni1 | Ah, wait. | 17:17 |
| Theuni1 | I'm not talking about bugs. | 17:18 |
| Theuni1 | I'm talking about general organizational issues. | 17:18 |
| mgedmin | ah, okay | 17:18 |
| hannosch | we have general government / process, definition of goals, roadmap, release manager and more | 17:18 |
| Theuni1 | Like: we started the ZTK effort, but supposedly nobody uses it yet and we're not sure what the roadmap actually ist. | 17:18 |
| Theuni1 | right | 17:18 |
| * Theuni1 scratches his head on where to start | 17:18 | |
| TresEquis | is Grok close to using it yet? | 17:19 |
| Theuni1 | any grok folks around? | 17:19 |
| TresEquis | Z2 could go back, now that tempers have cooled, if we agree on goals | 17:19 |
| sidnei | we are using the ztk on launchpad and landscape (or about to) | 17:19 |
| ignas | what about Schooltool? | 17:19 |
| TresEquis | cool | 17:19 |
| Theuni1 | sidnei: cool | 17:19 |
| Theuni1 | sidnei: how did the zope.*/zope.app* split work out for you? | 17:19 |
| * mgedmin didn't think to join #grok and invite the locals | 17:19 | |
| ignas | yvl, are you using ZTK? | 17:19 |
| baijum | AFAIK, Grok use a particular svn revision for 1.1 release | 17:20 |
| hannosch | I think Grok is pretty close. there's some harder zope.app.appsetup / testing things that'll take them more time | 17:20 |
| J1m_ | what "it" are you referring to? ZTK or some ZTK development process? | 17:20 |
| sidnei | Theuni1, no major issues, we are using very little of zope.app, mostly things that are pulled as dependencies of other things. | 17:20 |
| TresEquis | baijum: how is BB using ztk / zopeapp? | 17:20 |
| yvl | ignas, kind of. Some revision of it. | 17:20 |
| Theuni1 | J1m_: which "it" it? | 17:20 |
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| baijum | TresEquis: BB also use a particular revision for 1.0 release, cann't wait for ZTK 1.0 ... | 17:21 |
| J1m_ | what "it" are y'all taking about using? | 17:21 |
| * mgedmin thinks "it" is the ZTK itself | 17:21 | |
| hannosch | J1m_: the ztk.cfg file in subversion | 17:21 |
| baijum | BB 1.0 and Grok 1.1 use same revision of ZTK | 17:21 |
| TresEquis | we need to get "released" versions of ztk and zopeapp out ASAP | 17:21 |
| Theuni1 | right | 17:21 |
| sidnei | released++ | 17:21 |
| RUNYAGAs | Release | 17:22 |
| sidnei | all the patches we had pending have been submitted and new releases made, thanks to TresEquis for granting me rights. | 17:22 |
| pyqwer | +1 to release | 17:22 |
| J1m_ | We're using the ZTK packages and I think we're using the .cfg file. | 17:22 |
| TresEquis | Can we just call the r#### used by Grok 1.1 and BB 1.0 "ZTK 1.0"? | 17:23 |
| baijum | Another thing is creating Windows binaries for ZTK package | 17:23 |
| * mgedmin dreams of a build daemon... | 17:23 | |
| mcdonc | does it make sense to bring up the idea of giving a name and a separate identity the "bicycle toolkit" (z.component, z.configuration, z.interface) | 17:23 |
| Theuni1 | TresEquis: should we agree on goals before a release? ;) | 17:23 |
| baijum | Grok is waiting for Windows binaries for 1.1 final release | 17:24 |
| mgedmin | goal #1: make a release | 17:24 |
| TresEquis | I don't think we disagree, after the split of zopeapp.cfg | 17:24 |
| mgedmin | there, simple! | 17:24 |
| Theuni1 | mcdonc: it makes sense, but i'll put that on the backburner ;) | 17:24 |
| mcdonc | ok | 17:24 |
| agroszer | mgedmin, a well configured buildbot as build daemon? | 17:24 |
| RUNYAGAs | binaries of each package for win, correct? not ztk as one big binary, ? | 17:24 |
| mgedmin | agroszer, tell me how to run all of ZTK's tests and you'll get a buildbot in a day or two | 17:24 |
| Theuni1 | TresEquis: how do we establish that we agree? :) | 17:24 |
| baijum | RUNYAGAs: individual package binaries | 17:24 |
| Theuni1 | and how are the goals defined? :) | 17:24 |
| * mgedmin doesn't do windows, which might disqualify him from the buildbot czar position | 17:25 | |
| hannosch | can we appoint the Zope Foundation board to find a release manager for the ZTK? | 17:25 |
| Theuni1 | hannosch: the foundation has a task for figuring out MacYET2's successor for Z2 | 17:25 |
| TresEquis | ZF board doesn't really drive development process | 17:26 |
| Theuni1 | so we could also think about the same issue for the ZTK then | 17:26 |
| Theuni1 | TresEquis: it doesn't really, but we already have something like that on the agenda | 17:26 |
| TresEquis | it might help with finding (most likely *paying*) release managers | 17:26 |
| TresEquis | a small stipend | 17:26 |
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| TresEquis | but the dev community has to drive process | 17:27 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: it's currently the only recognized "authority" and the community doesn't seem to self-organize | 17:27 |
| mcdonc | my fear is that "the ztk" is actually several toolkits.. and while it's a reasonable goal to finish the ztk packaging and release as it is currently defined, i think we'd get a lot of mileage out of identifying those toolkits and decentralizing their maintenance and release process a bit | 17:27 |
| * mgedmin notices the approaching 30 minute limit for the meeting | 17:27 | |
| RUNYAGAs | what else re ztk? could someone write up how to run trunk ztk tests? seems actionable | 17:27 |
| Theuni1 | mgedmin: yes. thanks. | 17:27 |
| mcdonc | as a long term thing i mean | 17:27 |
| TresEquis | Z 2.13 *will* use ZTK if it gets released | 17:27 |
| mgedmin | actually we are covering the topics pretty well | 17:27 |
| TresEquis | just to answer that question | 17:28 |
| Theuni1 | RUNYAGAs: should be possible, because there's something pre-configured out in the wild already. i'll do that. | 17:28 |
| mgedmin | all that remains is to declare that Zope 3 is now called BlueBream 1.0 | 17:28 |
| alga | can we have a vote? | 17:28 |
| TresEquis | migration path | 17:28 |
| alga | about the name | 17:28 |
| TresEquis | no | 17:28 |
| Theuni1 | *g | 17:28 |
| mgedmin | alga, isn't it a bit late? | 17:28 |
| pyqwer | No | 17:28 |
| mcdonc | we vote by volunteering i think | 17:28 |
| alga | *g* | 17:28 |
| TresEquis | yup: dynocracy ;) | 17:29 |
| RUNYAGAs | i agree | 17:29 |
| TresEquis | who does the work, gets to vote ;) | 17:29 |
| RUNYAGAs | he who does wins | 17:29 |
| Theuni1 | every commit gives you one vote | 17:29 |
| MacYET2 | :-) | 17:29 |
| TresEquis | LOL | 17:29 |
| RUNYAGAs | that it ? | 17:29 |
| Theuni1 | ok, timelit. | 17:29 |
| Theuni1 | aeh | 17:29 |
| Theuni1 | timelimit | 17:29 |
| TresEquis | thanks for doing this, Theuni1 | 17:29 |
| Theuni1 | I'll go through the log and write up a summary of today. | 17:29 |
| pyqwer | Theuni1: Thanks for organizing this! | 17:30 |
| Theuni1 | Hope you enjoyed that and we'll continue on the mailinglist and talk again next week. | 17:30 |
| baijum | Theuni1: thanks ! | 17:30 |
| Theuni1 | no worries. thanks for participating :) | 17:30 |
| alga | Theuni1: thanks! | 17:30 |
| sidnei | if there's one thing i can add to a virtual wishlist is to get gary's buildout branches reviewed and merged *wink* | 17:30 |
| hannosch | hey, we didn't get into a fight :) | 17:30 |
| ignas | so the mighty club in the hands of Grok is a Trout!? :D | 17:30 |
| mgedmin | so, people who want buildbotting of their projects (ztk, bluebream, grok, zope2), email marius@pov.lt and tell me the steps to check out, build and run the test suite | 17:30 |
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| mgedmin | +1 for gary's buildout branches | 17:30 |
| betabug | hmm, while you guys are you all here, I wanted to know if you are aware that the current 2.12 install procedure is a bit of a block for newbies? | 17:31 |
| betabug | s/are you/are/ | 17:31 |
| * J1m_ knocked off 2 of gary's branches on Sunday | 17:31 | |
| baijum | betabug: I tried to create a doc here: http://docs.zope.org/zope2/zdgbook/GettingStarted.html | 17:31 |
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| alga | is irc'ing forbidden when driving? | 17:32 |
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| mgedmin | alga, if not, it should be | 17:33 |
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| betabug | baijum: the instructions in the release docs somewhere gave various options: easy_install, virtualenv, buildout | 17:33 |
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| betabug | the buildout given was b0rken, people referred me to plone's buildout config instead | 17:33 |
| baijum | betabug: In fact there are many options now.. | 17:33 |
| * baijum need to go .. sorry | 17:34 | |
| betabug | which is not necessarily a good idea | 17:34 |
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| betabug | baijum: ok, thanx anyway! | 17:34 |
| betabug | we were able to tell people here in #zope: "look at xy in your abc directory" - that's no longer possible | 17:34 |
| mgedmin | speaking of zope 2, I had lots of pain upgrading random people's older zopes to 2.thelatestwhatever (11? 12?) and then having their sites crash with Unicode errors left and right | 17:34 |
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| betabug | mgedmin: that was the change of ZPT in 2.10 | 17:35 |
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| betabug | most likely | 17:35 |
| mgedmin | actually zpt pages worked mostly fine, but those people I helped were using DTML documents everywhere | 17:35 |
| betabug | it needs some work to fix it in people's code | 17:35 |
| betabug | hmmm, no experience with that then | 17:35 |
| mgedmin | I probably shouldn't have brought up this topic | 17:35 |
| betabug | haha | 17:36 |
| betabug | the install procedure is a much bigger problem IMHO as one of the #zope answerbots | 17:36 |
| mgedmin | but it might've been a reason for those people's decision to build the next version of their site in drupal or django :/ | 17:36 |
| betabug | it also lead to some distros dropping zope out of their package system | 17:37 |
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| betabug | well, looks like there's no interest to discuss this | 17:38 |
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| ignas | not sure what's there to discuss, vierualenv + buildout is a kludge, grok is doing it better, someone needs to fix it, but no one knows how ;) | 17:39 |
| betabug | how is grok doing it? | 17:40 |
| ignas | they at least are packaging one big tarball for all the eggs | 17:40 |
| betabug | nice | 17:40 |
| ignas | which makes installation go smoother | 17:40 |
| ignas | also - IIRC Zope2 is doing all kinds of fake egg stuff | 17:40 |
| TresEquis | not in 2.10 | 17:40 |
| ignas | cool | 17:40 |
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| TresEquis | sorry, 2.12 | 17:41 |
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| TresEquis | you need buildout to develop Zope2, but not to install it | 17:41 |
| betabug | to tell you the truth, I believe that if people had an option to get a tarball that worked like 2.11 as a choice to the eggified install procedure, most (by a large margin) would get the tarball | 17:41 |
| mgedmin | I wonder how distros would look at one big tarball full of eggs | 17:41 |
| mgedmin | not well, I bet | 17:41 |
| TresEquis | it installs fine into a virtualenv | 17:41 |
| ignas | mgedmin, not well, it would conflict with all the eggs | 17:41 |
| TresEquis | there is no reason not to ship an "egg basket" tarball and use it as a local index, for folks who don't want to go to PyPI for every egg | 17:42 |
| TresEquis | but it takes effort to maintain | 17:43 |
| ignas | and being a release manager of such a beast | 17:43 |
| ignas | is one of the nastiest jobs ever | 17:43 |
| betabug | the old style also had everything in a structure that related to what you import | 17:43 |
| TresEquis | betabug: we aren't going back to that | 17:43 |
| betabug | which is great when hunting through the source code | 17:43 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: that's basically what the Plone installers do these days. all of them including the windows one use buildout under the hood - but ship everything in one big tarball / installer | 17:43 |
| mgedmin | betabug, if you use buildout, try the omelette recipe | 17:43 |
| ignas | betabug, use omelette | 17:43 |
| betabug | TresEquis: why? what's the reason? (just asking to understand) | 17:43 |
| mgedmin | or ctags | 17:44 |
| TresEquis | we *are* going to keep using eggs | 17:44 |
| TresEquis | period | 17:44 |
| moo--- | betabug: omelette symlinks everything to one folder space which looks like python module structure | 17:44 |
| TresEquis | the monolithic tree is impossible to maintain | 17:44 |
| betabug | well, the "period" doesn't help understand things | 17:44 |
| moo--- | betabug: makes development easier | 17:44 |
| kiorky | omelette is good but not perfect, i prefer ctags. | 17:44 |
| betabug | aha | 17:44 |
| ignas | makes integration with the rest of the python world easier | 17:44 |
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| betabug | does it make integration with the rest of the unix world easier? | 17:45 |
| mgedmin | I wish ctags could find packages and modules, not just classes and functions | 17:45 |
| hannosch | betabug: unix isn't the only world | 17:45 |
| betabug | sure | 17:45 |
| ignas | betabug, yes, in fact - 20 eggs are better than a tarball that contains code used by "other" packages | 17:45 |
| betabug | but windows is only a lame copy anyway ;-) | 17:45 |
| hannosch | using eggs means we can leverage whatever people built to make Python distributions work well under whatever OS package managers | 17:46 |
| ignas | betabug, when noone used zope packages, except Zope users you could have a tarball | 17:46 |
| betabug | aha | 17:46 |
| betabug | that certainly is a point | 17:46 |
| betabug | and the omelette thing is good information | 17:47 |
| mgedmin | setuptools is the best thing that happened to the Python world during the last 10 years | 17:47 |
| betabug | what do people do to be able to install without a net connection? | 17:47 |
| mgedmin | but we're all still collectively struggling to find the best way of doing things | 17:47 |
| TresEquis | we don't | 17:47 |
| ignas | betabug, now you have zope.component and all the stuff, that is used by quite some packages, and as soon as you say "hey i'll package it for myself in my huge tarball" you are making it hard | 17:47 |
| TresEquis | mgedmin: agreed, even if the python-dev folks are too l4m3 to know it | 17:47 |
| ignas | mgedmin, the least bad way ;) | 17:47 |
| mgedmin | betabug, there are tools that assemble a set of all the eggs needed for later offline installations | 17:47 |
| mgedmin | I don't remember the names :/ | 17:48 |
| betabug | mgedmin: ok, that would be something worth looking at | 17:48 |
| mgedmin | zc.sourcerelease perhaps? | 17:48 |
| TresEquis | betabug: we run "private" indexes for individual projects, to avoid depending directly on PyPI | 17:48 |
| ignas | betabug, how do you install your deb/rpm packages that have 100 of dependencies offline? | 17:48 |
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| TresEquis | but we don't try to install without any net at all | 17:48 |
| betabug | ignas: I don't use deb/rpm :-) | 17:48 |
| TresEquis | ("we" being the teams I work with) | 17:48 |
| mcdonc | it is possible... http://supervisord.org/manual/current/installing.html#installing_without_internet | 17:49 |
| mcdonc | although with 70 dependencies, not very practical | 17:49 |
| betabug | I'm sometimes on expensive connections (3G) or totally off the net for a while | 17:49 |
| ignas | betabug, use buildout cache | 17:49 |
| hannosch | "we" used zc.sourcerelease a couple of times when deploying inside organizations with insane firewall setups. it does its job | 17:49 |
| moo--- | betabug: also this pip tool has something called "pybundles" | 17:49 |
| srichter | betabug: you can have a local PyPI mirror; or download the packages into a dir and use find-links | 17:50 |
| ignas | betabug, buldout can cache eggs and share egg directories for installed eggs | 17:50 |
| betabug | very good information coming here :-) | 17:50 |
| moo--- | betabug: for example, delivarance can be downloaded as such 80 mb bundle | 17:50 |
| ignas | betabug, download-cache = /home/ignas/.buildout/cache | 17:50 |
| TresEquis | 'compoze' can be used to fetch source dists and build a local index | 17:50 |
| ignas | betabug, in ~/.buildout/default.cfg | 17:50 |
| betabug | ignas: great!!!! | 17:50 |
| ignas | betabug, and you won't have to download the same egg twice, ever, (unless you run out of disk space, and a tarball gets "cut" which buildout does not know about) | 17:51 |
| betabug | all that stuff should be documented in one place :-) | 17:51 |
| mgedmin | a few years ago everybody was doing their own web framework; now they're all doing their own packaging tools too! | 17:51 |
| ignas | betabug, that overloads the newbie | 17:51 |
| ignas | betabug, and it is in pypi zc.buildout page | 17:51 |
| ignas | betabug, you mentioned you get confused with virtualenv + easy_install + buildout | 17:51 |
| betabug | ignas: sure, but install instructions in 3-4 variations, of which 1 is only working through complaining on irc... | 17:51 |
| ignas | yeah | 17:52 |
| ignas | schooltool is using | 17:52 |
| mgedmin | ignas, pypi zc.buildout page is scary! | 17:52 |
| ignas | 1 way that always works | 17:52 |
| mgedmin | http://www.buildout.org/ is maybe a bit friendlier | 17:52 |
| ignas | even if it is suboptimal for some people | 17:52 |
| betabug | the thing is that "zope 2" has to have clear, consice install instructions, baijum definitely is right to put things into form again | 17:53 |
| * ignas found it takes way less explaining when you only have 1 official way of installation, even if it has twice as many steps as it could have taken for *some* people | 17:53 | |
| betabug | +1 | 17:53 |
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| betabug | the python aces will recognize the infos they need and speed ahead anyway | 17:53 |
| mcdonc | what is the problem with doing easy_install zope2 now? does that not work? | 17:54 |
| betabug | so, "documentation" is certainly one answer to my gripes | 17:54 |
| ignas | so I start with - virtualenv -> official buildout.cfg -> bootstrap -> buildout -> run! | 17:54 |
| betabug | mcdonc: uhmm, for starters... my system didn't have easy_install | 17:54 |
| ignas | because that works even with ubuntu zope.component installed | 17:54 |
| ignas | works even when you don't have root | 17:54 |
| betabug | and the install instructions sounded like they are supposed to be there | 17:54 |
| mcdonc | mm.. that definitely sounds like a personal problem | 17:54 |
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| ignas | works even if you don't know what virtualenv is | 17:54 |
| betabug | nope, they're not in a standard python install | 17:54 |
| betabug | they == easy_install | 17:54 |
| TresEquis | mcdonc: heh, I was just about to say that | 17:54 |
| mgedmin | everyone agrees that easy_install into the global site-packages directory is Evil | 17:55 |
| ignas | mcdonc, all problems are personal, question is - how often do people have these personal problems | 17:55 |
| TresEquis | which is why virtualenv | 17:55 |
| mcdonc | well, for other projects we just document the shit out of installing easy_install | 17:55 |
| betabug | django, bfg tell you where to get easy_install | 17:55 |
| TresEquis | download it, run it to create the place to install Zope, then run that place's 'easy_install' | 17:55 |
| mcdonc | zope2 doesnt have such a culture and never did | 17:55 |
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| betabug | "not mentioning requirements" isn't anything one could call culture | 17:56 |
| betabug | old zope2 install instructions where complete | 17:56 |
| betabug | s/where/were | 17:56 |
| mcdonc | well the release manager quit | 17:56 |
| mcdonc | so... | 17:56 |
| betabug | sorry, didn't know that | 17:56 |
| betabug | looks like bad timing too, as the release packaging changed at the same time | 17:57 |
| hannosch | I didn't know there's new users to Zope2 at all - I wonder why anyone would want to go with it today ;) | 17:57 |
| mcdonc | well the thing is that this packaging stuff has been in use literally now for many many years | 17:57 |
| mcdonc | this is not an excuse for not documenting it "in context" | 17:57 |
| betabug | hannosch: "new users" is not necessarily someone starting with a new framework, a sysadmin taking over a server is in there too | 17:57 |
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| mcdonc | but at some level its so overdocumented in multiple places (because it's not in the stdlib) that it's a little silly | 17:58 |
| betabug | hannosch: but in fact, yes, there are new zope 2 users some times, zope 2 is a complete, trusted, working system | 17:58 |
| ignas | betabug, it is one of the reasons why zope3 got kicked out of some/most distros when they moigrated to eggs | 17:58 |
| hannosch | betabug: well a sysadmin has almost no chance of updating to a new Zope version as it has a development cost each time | 17:58 |
| ignas | betabug, it took years to make it installable again, and they did not make "migration from old instances to new instances" thing at all | 17:58 |
| betabug | zope 2 is not as much a moving target, to some application builders that's a good thing | 17:59 |
| ignas | from what I understand your gripe is not just about new users, it is about "how do I migrate from zope 2.10 to zope2.12 in one easy step!?" | 17:59 |
| betabug | e.g. most zope upgrades in the 2.7 - 2.11 range are pretty easy | 17:59 |
| ignas | or is it zope 2.11 to zope 2.12, can't recall which one messed things up ;) | 18:00 |
| srichter | betabug: I agree, the Zope community often underestimates the value of API stability | 18:00 |
| betabug | well, for me the "new users" part is in a large part on "how will I answer questions here in #zope?" | 18:00 |
| mcdonc | tbh, i think its much ado about nothing.. i just easy_install'ed zope2, did bin/mkzopeinstance, bin/zopectl fg and it just worked | 18:00 |
| TresEquis | srichter: they underestimate the value of *documenting changes* | 18:00 |
| ignas | srichter, api stability is easy to fix most of the time, installation + packaging procedure stability is way worse IMHO | 18:00 |
| mcdonc | so as long as you a) know how to install easy_install and b) know how to invoke it and c) optionally know how to install virtualenv, it's a total nobrainer | 18:01 |
| betabug | sure, document changes, and change only what's really, really necessary in APIs | 18:01 |
| betabug | mcdonc: sure, and a bit of documentation will help too | 18:01 |
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| * mgedmin figured out the 2.9 -> 2.12 upgrade with a bit of pain and blood along the way | 18:02 | |
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| betabug | I must admit I haven't moved yet | 18:03 |
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| betabug | too lazy for my own stuff, too busy with other projects for my company stuff | 18:03 |
| betabug | but I'll get there :-) | 18:03 |
| ignas | mgedmin, how many times did you do it with Zope3 before? | 18:04 |
| mgedmin | oof | 18:05 |
| mgedmin | that was more painful | 18:05 |
| mgedmin | but it's not comparable: custom product built on top of z3 versus a z2 instance with objects in the ZODB | 18:05 |
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| ignas | my point is - you did a more difficult version first, and then the "easier thing" was "bloody painful" | 18:06 |
| mcdonc | you're right that the zope install documentation is total fucking nonsense | 18:06 |
| mgedmin | it's true, I already knew how to use buildout/virtualenv/easy_install | 18:06 |
| * ignas can't even imagine how not being able to disassemble reassemble whole stack in the middle of the night with your left hand feels like | 18:07 | |
| betabug | well, thank you all! | 18:08 |
| betabug | I'll look through my logs to sort it all out for me | 18:08 |
| ignas | and i am not even expecting empathy about install procedure from people who use "write your own buildout recipe, it's easy" in their replies | 18:09 |
| ignas | ;) | 18:09 |
| betabug | any zope-devs passing through .gr on vacation or so, I'll offer free drinks when you pass by Athens! | 18:09 |
| ignas | betabug, look at schooltool installation procedures | 18:09 |
| ignas | not sure you will like them | 18:09 |
| ignas | but still it's one more battle tested example | 18:09 |
| mcdonc | i love how people treat docs like they treat plone | 18:09 |
| mcdonc | just add more | 18:09 |
| betabug | haha | 18:09 |
| mcdonc | (hannosch excepted of course ;-) ) | 18:09 |
| betabug | I don't want more, I want 1, not 3-4 install options :-) | 18:10 |
| mgedmin | every system administration problem can be solved by adding more documentation? | 18:10 |
| mcdonc | excuse the paste | 18:11 |
| mcdonc | Installing Zope using zc.buildout | 18:11 |
| mcdonc | --------------------------------- | 18:11 |
| mcdonc | Unless you are `developing zope`__, you most likely want to be | 18:11 |
| mcdonc | creating a :ref:`buildout-based Zope instance <buildout-instances>` | 18:11 |
| mcdonc | rather that installing using buildout as described in this section. | 18:11 |
| mcdonc | uh... | 18:11 |
| mcdonc | what? | 18:11 |
| TresEquis | non-dev installs shouldn't use buildout | 18:12 |
| mgedmin | really? | 18:12 |
| TresEquis | unless you are installing something *else* which needs buildout | 18:12 |
| hannosch | mcdonc: that's ChrisW writing docs :) | 18:12 |
| mgedmin | what are the downsides? | 18:12 |
| mcdonc | i'll try to fix it | 18:12 |
| TresEquis | buildout is overkill, and it makes a *weird* environment | 18:12 |
| ignas | well | 18:12 |
| ignas | is it so bad | 18:13 |
| TresEquis | virtualenv + easy_install is much better | 18:13 |
| mgedmin | as to the first, it's true | 18:13 |
| mgedmin | but given we're talking about Zope, I'm not sure what "weird" means ;) | 18:13 |
| TresEquis | eggs, parts? Really? | 18:13 |
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| TresEquis | with virtualenv, the eggs go in lib/python2.x, which is at least "normal" | 18:14 |
| ignas | TresEquis, precisely my point I am for 1 option even if it is a bit more complicated, than for 5 options going in the order of simple -> difficult, works sometimes -> works always | 18:14 |
| TresEquis | for Python folks | 18:14 |
| hannosch | mcdonc: that doc http://docs.zope.org/zope2/releases/2.12/INSTALL.html is pretty weird. it first tells you a lot of stuff you shouldn't do and then cuts short on the thing you should actually do | 18:14 |
| mcdonc | yeah | 18:14 |
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| TresEquis | actually, the first one (installing with virtualenv) is the easy way | 18:15 |
| binbrain | INSTALL page is just organized oddly, put the virtualenv + easy_install at the top, anything below this point is for actual Zope developers | 18:15 |
| TresEquis | but it doesn't need the damn'ed 'bin/activate' | 18:15 |
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| hannosch | right. but that cold at least have a link to something that tells you how to get virtualenv | 18:16 |
| hannosch | could | 18:16 |
| TresEquis | I saw at least two people at PyCon sprints get hoked by activate | 18:16 |
| mgedmin | suggestion: keep the main INSTALL document short, move things like buildout into an appendix for advanced users who insist they need buildout | 18:16 |
| ignas | sudo apt-get install virtualenv | 18:16 |
| TresEquis | we shouldn't document 'easy_install' at all outside of virtualenv | 18:17 |
| TresEquis | and buildout should be on a "developers" page | 18:17 |
| ignas | how do you "update" an easy_installed Zope? | 18:17 |
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| hannosch | easy_install -U ? | 18:17 |
| TresEquis | ignas: huh? | 18:18 |
| TresEquis | how do you update anything else? | 18:18 |
| ignas | don't know | 18:18 |
| ignas | not using easy_install much | 18:18 |
| TresEquis | you install a new version, and change configs to point to it | 18:18 |
| TresEquis | buildout is completely wrong for a sysadmin who is not also a developer | 18:19 |
| ignas | what configs? i install zope 2.12 that is using zope.component 3.4.15, someone updates zope.component and puts a version 3.4.16 in the index | 18:19 |
| ignas | what command do I run to get zope.component "updated"? just bin/easy_install -i http://download.zope.org/Zope2/index/<Zope version> Zope2 ? | 18:19 |
| TresEquis | bin/easy_install -i ... -U zope.component | 18:20 |
| TresEquis | However, you *don't* just randomly update stuff installed with Zope2, normally | 18:20 |
| ignas | no, i don't know that zope.component was updated, i know that 6 months passed and there might be some new updates in zope2 dependencies | 18:20 |
| TresEquis | unless you *know* it fixes a bug whch matters to you | 18:20 |
| ignas | doesn't there being an index for Zope2 "keep it stable" ? | 18:21 |
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| hannosch | there's an index per release | 18:21 |
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| kosh | hi guys | 18:26 |
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| mgedmin | TresEquis, problem is, how do I know if there are bugs I want fixed? | 18:30 |
| mgedmin | it's one thing if I find the bug myself | 18:30 |
| hannosch | mgedmin: that's what release notes are for | 18:31 |
| mgedmin | it's another thing if somebody discovers a security hole in zope.somenameIneverheardof that happens to be used by Z2 | 18:31 |
| ignas | meh, buildout is way less work, bin/buildout -n -> it gets the newest versions.cfg and installs all the new stable secure versions of packages | 18:32 |
| mgedmin | debian is even better: apt-get upgrade | 18:33 |
| kosh | I certainly hope we get debian packages again | 18:33 |
| mgedmin | both depend on other people doing the hard work for you | 18:33 |
| kosh | that was far easier to maintain | 18:33 |
| mgedmin | schooltool is pushing a lot of the ztk into debian/ubuntu, afaiu | 18:33 |
| mcdonc | for my money, i'd rather have control than letting someone else decide what "new stable" means... the last time there was a critical remote vulnerability in any zope package was in like 2006 due to docutils filesystem inclusion, afaik | 18:37 |
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| ignas | and i'd like to allow people chose | 18:37 |
| ignas | apt-get install upgrade exists, but a lot of admins do not use it... | 18:38 |
| kosh | well debian never switched an instance to a another version so if you where running 2.9 the most you would get is updated to 2.9 | 18:40 |
| kosh | it would not switch stuff to 2.10 | 18:40 |
| mcdonc | one answer is to use a different framework that doesnt have 60 dependencies... another is to track the ztk | 18:40 |
| kosh | I never had problems with it and it saved a lot of time | 18:40 |
| mgedmin | this is getting a bit maudlin | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | what's a good way to version-control zope 2's TTW objects? | 18:41 |
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| kosh | well I think that debian will get packages again | 18:41 |
| * mgedmin always found the TTW story rather compelling -- talk about rapid feedback! | 18:41 | |
| kosh | the idea of dropping zope entirely is just not a very good option, I have looked at the other webframeworks and things like security in them seems to be an afterthought at most | 18:42 |
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| kosh | I love the TTW part of zope 2 | 18:42 |
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| * mgedmin used ZCVSFolder a long time ago | 18:42 | |
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| mcdonc | "this is getting a bit maudlin" heh | 18:42 |
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| mgedmin | I needed to refactor a website once | 18:44 |
| mgedmin | it was produced by a designer using some kind of a design tool, exported to a bunch of very redundant HTMLs and imported into Z2 as ZPTs | 18:44 |
| Theuni1 | which reminds me | 18:44 |
| mgedmin | IIRC I extracted the data over webdav, edited it with vim on the filesystem | 18:44 |
| kosh | ah that situation I have not deal with before | 18:44 |
| mgedmin | and ended up writing a small Python script to produce a .zexp from the files in the filesystem | 18:44 |
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| ignas | yeah, I want to know how to do it too, but my usecase is 100Kloc of TTW code | 18:45 |
| mcdonc | omfg | 18:45 |
| mgedmin | heh | 18:45 |
| mgedmin | enjoying your new maintenance contract, are you? | 18:46 |
| ignas | its as if Object Oriented Reengineering Patterns was written about that thing ;) | 18:46 |
| mcdonc | 100K lines of ttw code... perhaps just kill yourself... or at least fake your own death | 18:47 |
| Theuni1 | i think that code will do that for him perfectly fine. wo reason to perform suicide. ;) | 18:47 |
| ignas | you should see the quality, they use sql queries to perform date operations | 18:47 |
| ignas | like "add 1 day to this date" | 18:47 |
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| sp0cksbeard | not sure if that option is still supported, but FSDump used to be one way | 18:48 |
| sp0cksbeard | there used to be a complementary product to map filesystem objects into ZMI | 18:48 |
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| sp0cksbeard | version controlling the dumped objects and then mapping the working copy back into ZMI | 18:49 |
| Theuni1 | ignas: i have to do something similar | 18:49 |
| Theuni1 | i'm looking into using genericsetup for that | 18:49 |
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| kosh | in general though a giant horrible mess of code is a problem in any system | 18:50 |
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| kosh | a nicer way to manage a mess is a good idea but I don't find it to be an important major point | 18:50 |
| ignas | Theuni1, thanks, will have to read about it | 18:50 |
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| ignas | kosh, TTW makes it more difficult really | 18:50 |
| ignas | kosh, i can't use most of my tools :/ | 18:51 |
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| kosh | ignas: but it made it easier to write the system in the first place | 18:51 |
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| ignas | you really think so? code duplication is rampant, refactoring was never performed, because it is pretty inconvenient to do TTW, there are no tests, and no docs... | 18:52 |
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| kosh | sounds like a lot of filesystem codebases also | 18:53 |
| ignas | I know, I know - you can write bad code in any language | 18:53 |
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| Theuni1 | that's wrong | 18:55 |
| Theuni1 | a good fortran programmer knows how to write fortran code in any language! | 18:55 |
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| ignas | Theuni1: did you know that PyPI is written in php written in python? | 18:59 |
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| Theuni1 | wtf? | 19:10 |
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| mcdonc | i dont suppose anyone knows whether the source of http://docs.zope.org/zope2/releases/2.12/INSTALL.html comes from zope2 checkout's docs/INSTALL.rst or not do they? | 19:18 |
| hannosch | mcdonc: it comes from a SVN tag | 19:18 |
| mcdonc | if i changed docs/INSTALL.rst eventually when a new release was made, it would get rendered tho? | 19:19 |
| hannosch | mcdonc: it reflects the last release, but otherwise changes in SVN will show up on that page at some point | 19:19 |
| mcdonc | ok good | 19:19 |
| mcdonc | i'm going to break it into 2 sections | 19:20 |
| mcdonc | one for windows people and one for unix | 19:20 |
| hannosch | mcdonc: the real Sphinx stuff comes from http://svn.zope.org/repos/main/zope2docs/trunk/ | 19:20 |
| mcdonc | k | 19:20 |
| hannosch | "svn pg svn:externals http://svn.zope.org/repos/main/zope2docs/trunk/releases/" tells you what is used there | 19:21 |
| mcdonc | ty | 19:22 |
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| davisagli | Theuni1: btw, thanks for organizing the meeting, and for sending out notes for those of us who failed at getting up at 7 a.m. ;) | 19:24 |
| Theuni1 | davisagli: you're welcome. i hope it helps. :) | 19:25 |
| davisagli | Theuni1: same time next week? | 19:25 |
| hannosch | it's been quite civilized and well-behaved, I was surprised :) | 19:26 |
| Theuni1 | yup | 19:26 |
| Theuni1 | hannosch: yeah :) | 19:26 |
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| Theuni1 | .oO(sad thing you're surprised though *G) | 19:26 |
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| hannosch | well, judging our mailing list communication style, I was surprised to see some communication culture - not everyone speaking at the same time trying to get his point across | 19:27 |
| Theuni1 | wait for next week *g | 19:27 |
| davisagli | :) | 19:27 |
| TresEquis | betabug: I just reorganized the install docs a bit: http://svn.zope.org/Zope/branches/tseaver-clarify_install_docs/?rev=109567&view=rev | 19:28 |
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| TresEquis | mcdonc: you too :) | 19:29 |
| mcdonc | good | 19:31 |
| TresEquis | I didn't do anything particular for Windows folks, though | 19:31 |
| TresEquis | just moved the zc.buildout bits out into a separate file | 19:31 |
| TresEquis | and split the bits which didn't care how you had installed it out, too | 19:31 |
| hannosch | if you have Python, pywintypes and virtualenv installed, it should be quite the same | 19:32 |
| mcdonc | TresEquis: maybe just merge that to the trunk? | 19:35 |
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| * sm catches up.. awesome | 19:46 | |
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| TresEquis | mcdonc: I'm gonna merge to 2.12 branch and the trunk | 19:47 |
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| hannosch | TresEquis: +1 and don't listen to ChrisW ;) | 19:48 |
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| mgedmin | what's pywintypes? | 20:43 |
| hannosch | eh, pywin32 or whatever Mark Hammonds thing is called | 20:43 |
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| TheJester | virtualenv is possibly the worst product name ever | 21:09 |
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| * mgedmin has seen worse | 21:11 | |
| TheJester | Given it's not virtual in any way shape or form | 21:12 |
| TheJester | jail, sandbox, something similar would have been far more accurate | 21:13 |
| mgedmin | pythonbox | 21:13 |
| mgedmin | python-in-a-box | 21:13 |
| mgedmin | pychroot | 21:14 |
| mgedmin | oh well too late now | 21:14 |
| TheJester | chroot isn't very accurate either d8) | 21:14 |
| mgedmin | at least it's googlable | 21:14 |
| TheJester | And I expect anyone who starts telling new Zope users to use build-out to come here and support them when it doesn't work (which it never seems to) | 21:15 |
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| mgedmin | good point | 21:15 |
| * TheJester expects to see ZRE being released any time now | 21:16 | |
| * TheJester laughs insanely | 21:17 | |
| * mgedmin doesn't even know what ZRE is | 21:17 | |
| TheJester | Zope Runtime Environment d8) | 21:17 |
| TheJester | ala JRE d8) | 21:17 |
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| moo--- | TheJester: then maybe buildout should be fixed to report human-readable errors | 21:19 |
| kiorky | cwiddwd> | 21:19 |
| mgedmin | moo---, I'm all for that! | 21:20 |
| mgedmin | unfortunately it builds on top of setuptools, and there are maybe three people in the world who understand how setuptools works | 21:20 |
| mgedmin | and one of them is busy creating a fork/rewrite | 21:20 |
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| moo--- | mgedmin: well, I call that progress | 21:23 |
| moo--- | :) | 21:23 |
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| mgedmin | it is | 21:24 |
| TheJester | I'm sure it's great if you have exactly the same environment and don't want to deviate in any single way | 21:24 |
| mgedmin | what is? buildout | 21:25 |
| mgedmin | ? | 21:25 |
| TheJester | Yes | 21:25 |
| mgedmin | buildout is great if you want to develop multiple packages that rely on the same dependencies but maybe different versions of them | 21:25 |
| TheJester | Of course that's kind of difficult between operating systems and distros d8) | 21:25 |
| mgedmin | because buildout can share the eggs and only install each one once | 21:25 |
| mgedmin | otherwise you'd have either a multitude of virtualenvs, with copies of every egg in every env | 21:26 |
| mgedmin | or you'd try to share your virtualenvs and feel the pain of incompatible versions | 21:26 |
| TheJester | It can share the eggs, but, telling it you already "have that" globally apparently requires some other nasty fake-egg juju | 21:26 |
| mgedmin | what? no fake-egg juju | 21:26 |
| mgedmin | a line in ~/.buildout/buildout.cfg | 21:26 |
| TheJester | YOu need to stay here andd tell that to everyone who has problems with it d8) | 21:26 |
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| mgedmin | okay | 21:26 |
| mgedmin | buildout should have its own irc channel | 21:27 |
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| TheJester | Yes and the 3 ppl that understand it can stay there | 21:27 |
| TheJester | d8) | 21:27 |
| TheJester | the user count is 1, is it you? d8) | 21:27 |
| TheJester | or is it some pooor bugger waiting for help? d8) | 21:28 |
| mgedmin | oh, does the channel exist? | 21:28 |
| TheJester | It seems to | 21:28 |
| TheJester | haha it has chanserv in it | 21:29 |
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| TheJester | The joy of zope-in-a-tarball was that it was really simple for people to get it up and running and play with it | 21:30 |
| TheJester | Until it fell 3 versions behind on python d8) | 21:30 |
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| kosh | TheJester: I definitely agree that the tarball was far easier to get installed and working | 21:34 |
| mcdonc | TresEquis just changed the ZOpe install thing to feature easy_install as the one true way to get zope installed (with a pointer over to a separate doc for buildout) | 21:35 |
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| TheJester | So it only works if you get the LATEST zope and install it before any of the sub-packages get updated | 21:40 |
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| mcdonc | no idea what you mean | 21:40 |
| TheJester | Lucky you | 21:40 |
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