IRC log of #zope for Thursday, 2010-03-18

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Gustav3Guten morgen10:14
Gustav3ich bins wieder und habe immernoch folgendes Problem: wie kann ich in einem Pagetemplate 2 Texte und 3 Bilder einf├╝gen?10:15
Gustav3diese sollen durch einen einfachen Nutzer pflegbar sein.10:15
Gustav3mit 1 text und 1 bild funktioniert es schon10:15
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goschtlGustav3: hier besser englich... versuchs mal auf #zope.de10:24
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mgedminoh, zope 2, dear zope 2, you fail at unicode15:28
mgedmingo to the Find tab, type something non-ASCII in the "contains" field -> bam! unicode error15:28
betabugmgedmin: did you set the ZMI to utf8?15:29
mgedminyou mean the management_page_charset property? yes15:29
* mgedmin checks version -- Zope 2.12.215:30
betabugwell, works for me on a 2.10 instance15:30
mgedmina Page Template that tries to tal:content="structure here/a_dtml_document" barfs Unicode errors if the dtml document contains non-ASCII chars15:30
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mgedminmy point is precisely this: sites that worked perfectly with older Zopes (e.g. 2.7?  I don't remember) are now spewing Unicode errors left and right15:31
betabugyeah, but the big change was 2.9 -> 2.10 with the Z3 ZPT implementation15:32
betabugthough I don't have any real experience with 2.12 yet15:32
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TheJesterutf8 != unicide15:43
TheJesterunicode15:43
* mgedmin wonders if TheJester was making a point of some kind15:47
TheJesterIt's just that people claim that they "have unicode" and normally it's just UTF-815:48
TheJesterwhich is neither ASCII or unicode15:48
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mgedminUTF *is* a unicode encoding15:52
mgedminsaying UTF-8 is not unicode is like saying herring is not fish15:52
TheJesterUTF-8 is not unicode. You can "get to unicode" from there15:52
TheJesterBut you can "get to unicode" from windows-1252 too15:52
TheJesterBut, if your "thing" is expecting unicode15:53
TheJesterThen it will not understand UTF-815:53
TheJesterAnd you get errors d8)15:54
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* mgedmin again wonders what's the point in picking tiny semantical details when Zope 2 is plain buggy: you put data in, it fails to convert into a coherent internal format and then trips over itself when outputting15:56
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mgedminI don't care if it stores pickled UTF-8 str objects or pickled unicode objects in the DB, it should support full browser -> HTTP request -> ZODB -> HTTP request -> browser roundtrip15:57
koshsometimes that is not possible15:58
koshsome browers send data in a different encoding from the webpage and they don't declare what encoding they send the data in so you have to try and guess15:58
mgedmin*headdesk*15:58
koshIE is a major problem on that one15:58
TheJesterSome even lie d8)15:58
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koshthat is why you see so much code out there that suggests trying to parse the browser response with 10 or so different character encodings and choose the one with the least reported errors15:59
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koshfor instance IE will post with cp-1252 if a page is set to iso-8859-1 or iso-8859-15 and I think some others also15:59
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koshbut there is nothing in the data you get from IE to indicate the character encoding16:00
koshall the server sees is a bytestring16:00
koshyou can try and assume it is encoded the same way as the page and convert that to unicode16:00
koshhowever you will get unicoderrors sometimes since you can't decode that bytestring to unicdoe16:01
koshonce you really understand how this stuff works you should be shocked it works as often as it does16:01
koshI have looked at some code that tried something like 20 differnet encodings to figure out which one was probably right16:01
koshpeople that used it would claim the code just worked, the developers knew it was a fragile and barely working mess16:02
mgedmin... like zope 2?16:02
mgedminsorry, couldn't resist16:02
koshguess you did not understand the point16:02
koshzope is darn near bulletproof compared to the other systems out there16:02
mgedmin"the problem has difficult-to-solve corner cases so we will ignore plain bugs that happen with mainstream platforms that support UTF-8 for decades"16:03
* mgedmin spews coffee through his nose16:03
mgedminbulletproof?16:03
koshzope has almost not security issues over its entire lifetime16:03
mgedminyou can always find a buggier strawman if you look hard enough16:03
mgedminI admit my bitching here is not constructive16:03
koshit is stable to run over long periods of time with consistent memory usage16:04
koshupgrading between versions tends to have fewer hassles then other equiv products I have had to work with or read up on16:04
mcdoncforms are hard16:05
koshalso IE by default does not post UTF-8, windows uses UTF-16 probably just to be different and it would not surprise me if IE sent UTF-16 when a page was set for UTF-816:05
koshas long as you treat it all as bytestrings and hand the browser back what it handed you it all tends to work16:06
koshwhen you try and deal with encodings, unicode etc it tends to break down pretty quickly for very little gain16:06
mcdoncthese days both ie and mozilla (but not safari apparently) support a _charset_ field16:06
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mcdoncif you set a _charset_ field in a form as a hidden field, the browser will jam a string representing the encoding into it16:07
koshmcdonc: interesting that I did not know16:07
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koshmcdonc: I did know that IE won't honor the encoding of the page16:07
mcdoncdunno about that, really.. we've been lucky so far16:08
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koshI wonder if chrome puts anything in that field16:10
kosheither way I want to take IE out and have it shot repeatedly16:10
koshfor causing so much stuff to be broken16:10
koshpeople have no idea how much damage that POS has done16:10
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koshI wish we had one and only one unicode encoding16:11
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koshand that everything would use that and be done with it16:11
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koshtime and language massively suck to deal with16:13
koshso far my strategy for unicode is stick my fingers in my ears and humm really loudly until it goes away and that works pretty well16:14
* mgedmin headdesks again16:16
TheJester_charset_ is inconsistent16:17
TheJesterI tried mucking with that a few years ago16:17
koshTheJester: are you claming that IE is inconsistent about something? .... I would add that to the list of things it does wrong but the last list recently broke through the floor16:18
TheJestername="name:utf8:ustring" seems to mitigate a lot of issues though16:19
TheJesterwrt _charset_ I just remember I wasn't getting what I thought I should be getting16:20
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* kosh wonders if he has gone over the sarcasm limits ;)16:21
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koshsee you weirdos later16:25
* kosh hands out books on necromancy16:25
TheJesterSo I can sign it for you? d8)16:25
koshwell you can have fun with the books16:26
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kittonianmorning16:32
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do3ccsometimes I think we are lucky, that we don't have arabs in the EU. Wasn't it them were everything is written from right to left?17:08
do3ccuntil know we just worry about 22 or so languages17:08
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betabugdo3cc: it doesn't matter much what people you have here if you (or your customers) sell to people that use those languages :-)17:09
do3ccwe are germans we sell everything to every non german. Every other eu country complains that germans don't consume too much? Thats just because we sold everything already to others.17:13
do3ccand if others can't afford our stuff, we give 'em credits17:13
do3ccIf we treated people really bad, we even give things away for free, like military submarines17:13
do3cc/bad/bad in the past/17:14
mgedminhebrew is also an RTL language17:16
do3cchah, thats why they got some submarines for free, to hard to make good contracts17:17
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planetzopebotUsing YUI on Grok (Grok)  http://grok.zope.org/documentation/tutorial/using-yui-on-grok18:04
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Skywisehi, i'm having what i think is a memory leak issue and i'm wondering what resources i can use to track down the issue18:27
Skywiseafter 3 days it was using 619mb even tho the server was esstentially idle18:28
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mgedminis it still growing, or is the memory usage stable now?18:30
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Skywiseits seems to grow slowly over time, maybe 200mb a day18:31
Skywiseits not a suddent condition18:31
mgedminI'd wait a few more days18:31
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mgedminzope memory usage is essentially more_or_less_constant_overhead + number_of_threads * max(size_of_all_objects_loaded_during_request_processing)18:32
mgedminalso, python hardly ever releases memory back to the OS18:33
mgedminand the heap gets fragmented18:33
Skywisewell, i'm sure i need to compact the database, but i'm not sure where to look for where the memory is being used at18:33
Skywiserestarting zope frees the memory18:33
mgedminso you'll never see the memory going down, but it can easily be that 30% of that is just unused VM space that can be safely swapped out18:33
bigkevmcdcompacting the zodb is unlikely to help that much, only needed objects should be loaded into the cache18:33
Skywisethats a good point18:34
mgedminyes, restarting will do that: it nukes all ZODB caches, gets rid of heap fragmentation18:34
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Skywiseso i should wait to see if its hitting swap18:34
mgedminyou should see if the growth is constant or if it stops after a while18:34
mgedminthere are tools for looking at memory leaks, e.g. Dozer18:34
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* mgedmin once had fun doing this for his app: http://mg.pov.lt/blog/hunting-python-memleaks.html18:36
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mgedminincidentally, to put things in perspective, I've zopes with 1.4 gigs resident data18:36
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mgedminit's a zope 3 app that's doing some suboptimal things like loading thousands of persistent objects for some requests, instead of using indexes/precalculation18:37
mgedminI recommend collectd18:37
mgedminwatches memory usage of your server, draws pretty pictures18:37
mgedminif you see a constant slope for a week, you'll know you have a leak18:38
mgedminif it slopes and then evens out, it looks very different18:38
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Skywisethx for that advice18:38
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kittonianTheJester: you around?19:05
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TheJesterYes Kitt21:15
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zenwrylyIs there a zope3 most recent release buildout somewhere for easy checkout?21:24
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TresEquiszenwryly: bluebream21:36
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TresEquishttp://bluebream.zope.org/21:36
zenwrylyTresEquis: tx21:46
TheJesterThere's a 1 fish, 2 fish, red fish, blue fish joke in there somewhere21:47
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TresEquis2 zope, 3 zope, bluebream isn't zope?22:05
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TheJesterBobo, Zope 2, Zope 3, Blue Bream?22:09
moo---mooooore web framewoooorks22:12
TheJesterNotZopeYlons NotZopeJango NotZopeZope322:13
TresEquisNot to forget Ian's ZTurPlango22:13
TresEquiswhich codes itself22:14
TheJesterCan you hear the drums ZTurPlango...22:14
moo---eval(world)22:14
TheJesterfrom internet import code22:14
TheJestercode.dwim()22:14
TheJesterThose two lines pretty much sum up the amount of work most managers thinks are involved in writing a web application22:15
TheJesters/thinks/think/22:15
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zenwrylyTresEquis: joel burton was telling me about the z3 ZCA browser, can I take a look at it under bluebream?22:48
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zenwrylyHow do I get at the ZMI in a bluebream sampleproject?23:15
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TresEquiszenwryly: I don't know much about it:  I don't actually use bluebream23:42
zenwrylyTresEquis: I'm just trying to poke around under apidoc23:43
zenwrylyTresEquis: looking for a clean zope 3 example of that23:43
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TresEquiszenwryly: you probably want Zope 3.4 then:  http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/23:47
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