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| Gustav3 | Guten morgen | 10:14 |
|---|---|---|
| Gustav3 | ich bins wieder und habe immernoch folgendes Problem: wie kann ich in einem Pagetemplate 2 Texte und 3 Bilder einfügen? | 10:15 |
| Gustav3 | diese sollen durch einen einfachen Nutzer pflegbar sein. | 10:15 |
| Gustav3 | mit 1 text und 1 bild funktioniert es schon | 10:15 |
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| goschtl | Gustav3: hier besser englich... versuchs mal auf #zope.de | 10:24 |
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| mgedmin | oh, zope 2, dear zope 2, you fail at unicode | 15:28 |
| mgedmin | go to the Find tab, type something non-ASCII in the "contains" field -> bam! unicode error | 15:28 |
| betabug | mgedmin: did you set the ZMI to utf8? | 15:29 |
| mgedmin | you mean the management_page_charset property? yes | 15:29 |
| * mgedmin checks version -- Zope 2.12.2 | 15:30 | |
| betabug | well, works for me on a 2.10 instance | 15:30 |
| mgedmin | a Page Template that tries to tal:content="structure here/a_dtml_document" barfs Unicode errors if the dtml document contains non-ASCII chars | 15:30 |
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| mgedmin | my point is precisely this: sites that worked perfectly with older Zopes (e.g. 2.7? I don't remember) are now spewing Unicode errors left and right | 15:31 |
| betabug | yeah, but the big change was 2.9 -> 2.10 with the Z3 ZPT implementation | 15:32 |
| betabug | though I don't have any real experience with 2.12 yet | 15:32 |
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| TheJester | utf8 != unicide | 15:43 |
| TheJester | unicode | 15:43 |
| * mgedmin wonders if TheJester was making a point of some kind | 15:47 | |
| TheJester | It's just that people claim that they "have unicode" and normally it's just UTF-8 | 15:48 |
| TheJester | which is neither ASCII or unicode | 15:48 |
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| mgedmin | UTF *is* a unicode encoding | 15:52 |
| mgedmin | saying UTF-8 is not unicode is like saying herring is not fish | 15:52 |
| TheJester | UTF-8 is not unicode. You can "get to unicode" from there | 15:52 |
| TheJester | But you can "get to unicode" from windows-1252 too | 15:52 |
| TheJester | But, if your "thing" is expecting unicode | 15:53 |
| TheJester | Then it will not understand UTF-8 | 15:53 |
| TheJester | And you get errors d8) | 15:54 |
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| * mgedmin again wonders what's the point in picking tiny semantical details when Zope 2 is plain buggy: you put data in, it fails to convert into a coherent internal format and then trips over itself when outputting | 15:56 | |
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| mgedmin | I don't care if it stores pickled UTF-8 str objects or pickled unicode objects in the DB, it should support full browser -> HTTP request -> ZODB -> HTTP request -> browser roundtrip | 15:57 |
| kosh | sometimes that is not possible | 15:58 |
| kosh | some browers send data in a different encoding from the webpage and they don't declare what encoding they send the data in so you have to try and guess | 15:58 |
| mgedmin | *headdesk* | 15:58 |
| kosh | IE is a major problem on that one | 15:58 |
| TheJester | Some even lie d8) | 15:58 |
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| kosh | that is why you see so much code out there that suggests trying to parse the browser response with 10 or so different character encodings and choose the one with the least reported errors | 15:59 |
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| kosh | for instance IE will post with cp-1252 if a page is set to iso-8859-1 or iso-8859-15 and I think some others also | 15:59 |
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| kosh | but there is nothing in the data you get from IE to indicate the character encoding | 16:00 |
| kosh | all the server sees is a bytestring | 16:00 |
| kosh | you can try and assume it is encoded the same way as the page and convert that to unicode | 16:00 |
| kosh | however you will get unicoderrors sometimes since you can't decode that bytestring to unicdoe | 16:01 |
| kosh | once you really understand how this stuff works you should be shocked it works as often as it does | 16:01 |
| kosh | I have looked at some code that tried something like 20 differnet encodings to figure out which one was probably right | 16:01 |
| kosh | people that used it would claim the code just worked, the developers knew it was a fragile and barely working mess | 16:02 |
| mgedmin | ... like zope 2? | 16:02 |
| mgedmin | sorry, couldn't resist | 16:02 |
| kosh | guess you did not understand the point | 16:02 |
| kosh | zope is darn near bulletproof compared to the other systems out there | 16:02 |
| mgedmin | "the problem has difficult-to-solve corner cases so we will ignore plain bugs that happen with mainstream platforms that support UTF-8 for decades" | 16:03 |
| * mgedmin spews coffee through his nose | 16:03 | |
| mgedmin | bulletproof? | 16:03 |
| kosh | zope has almost not security issues over its entire lifetime | 16:03 |
| mgedmin | you can always find a buggier strawman if you look hard enough | 16:03 |
| mgedmin | I admit my bitching here is not constructive | 16:03 |
| kosh | it is stable to run over long periods of time with consistent memory usage | 16:04 |
| kosh | upgrading between versions tends to have fewer hassles then other equiv products I have had to work with or read up on | 16:04 |
| mcdonc | forms are hard | 16:05 |
| kosh | also IE by default does not post UTF-8, windows uses UTF-16 probably just to be different and it would not surprise me if IE sent UTF-16 when a page was set for UTF-8 | 16:05 |
| kosh | as long as you treat it all as bytestrings and hand the browser back what it handed you it all tends to work | 16:06 |
| kosh | when you try and deal with encodings, unicode etc it tends to break down pretty quickly for very little gain | 16:06 |
| mcdonc | these days both ie and mozilla (but not safari apparently) support a _charset_ field | 16:06 |
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| mcdonc | if you set a _charset_ field in a form as a hidden field, the browser will jam a string representing the encoding into it | 16:07 |
| kosh | mcdonc: interesting that I did not know | 16:07 |
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| kosh | mcdonc: I did know that IE won't honor the encoding of the page | 16:07 |
| mcdonc | dunno about that, really.. we've been lucky so far | 16:08 |
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| kosh | I wonder if chrome puts anything in that field | 16:10 |
| kosh | either way I want to take IE out and have it shot repeatedly | 16:10 |
| kosh | for causing so much stuff to be broken | 16:10 |
| kosh | people have no idea how much damage that POS has done | 16:10 |
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| kosh | I wish we had one and only one unicode encoding | 16:11 |
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| kosh | and that everything would use that and be done with it | 16:11 |
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| kosh | time and language massively suck to deal with | 16:13 |
| kosh | so far my strategy for unicode is stick my fingers in my ears and humm really loudly until it goes away and that works pretty well | 16:14 |
| * mgedmin headdesks again | 16:16 | |
| TheJester | _charset_ is inconsistent | 16:17 |
| TheJester | I tried mucking with that a few years ago | 16:17 |
| kosh | TheJester: are you claming that IE is inconsistent about something? .... I would add that to the list of things it does wrong but the last list recently broke through the floor | 16:18 |
| TheJester | name="name:utf8:ustring" seems to mitigate a lot of issues though | 16:19 |
| TheJester | wrt _charset_ I just remember I wasn't getting what I thought I should be getting | 16:20 |
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| * kosh wonders if he has gone over the sarcasm limits ;) | 16:21 | |
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| kosh | see you weirdos later | 16:25 |
| * kosh hands out books on necromancy | 16:25 | |
| TheJester | So I can sign it for you? d8) | 16:25 |
| kosh | well you can have fun with the books | 16:26 |
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| kittonian | morning | 16:32 |
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| do3cc | sometimes I think we are lucky, that we don't have arabs in the EU. Wasn't it them were everything is written from right to left? | 17:08 |
| do3cc | until know we just worry about 22 or so languages | 17:08 |
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| betabug | do3cc: it doesn't matter much what people you have here if you (or your customers) sell to people that use those languages :-) | 17:09 |
| do3cc | we are germans we sell everything to every non german. Every other eu country complains that germans don't consume too much? Thats just because we sold everything already to others. | 17:13 |
| do3cc | and if others can't afford our stuff, we give 'em credits | 17:13 |
| do3cc | If we treated people really bad, we even give things away for free, like military submarines | 17:13 |
| do3cc | /bad/bad in the past/ | 17:14 |
| mgedmin | hebrew is also an RTL language | 17:16 |
| do3cc | hah, thats why they got some submarines for free, to hard to make good contracts | 17:17 |
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| planetzopebot | Using YUI on Grok (Grok) http://grok.zope.org/documentation/tutorial/using-yui-on-grok | 18:04 |
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| Skywise | hi, i'm having what i think is a memory leak issue and i'm wondering what resources i can use to track down the issue | 18:27 |
| Skywise | after 3 days it was using 619mb even tho the server was esstentially idle | 18:28 |
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| mgedmin | is it still growing, or is the memory usage stable now? | 18:30 |
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| Skywise | its seems to grow slowly over time, maybe 200mb a day | 18:31 |
| Skywise | its not a suddent condition | 18:31 |
| mgedmin | I'd wait a few more days | 18:31 |
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| mgedmin | zope memory usage is essentially more_or_less_constant_overhead + number_of_threads * max(size_of_all_objects_loaded_during_request_processing) | 18:32 |
| mgedmin | also, python hardly ever releases memory back to the OS | 18:33 |
| mgedmin | and the heap gets fragmented | 18:33 |
| Skywise | well, i'm sure i need to compact the database, but i'm not sure where to look for where the memory is being used at | 18:33 |
| Skywise | restarting zope frees the memory | 18:33 |
| mgedmin | so you'll never see the memory going down, but it can easily be that 30% of that is just unused VM space that can be safely swapped out | 18:33 |
| bigkevmcd | compacting the zodb is unlikely to help that much, only needed objects should be loaded into the cache | 18:33 |
| Skywise | thats a good point | 18:34 |
| mgedmin | yes, restarting will do that: it nukes all ZODB caches, gets rid of heap fragmentation | 18:34 |
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| Skywise | so i should wait to see if its hitting swap | 18:34 |
| mgedmin | you should see if the growth is constant or if it stops after a while | 18:34 |
| mgedmin | there are tools for looking at memory leaks, e.g. Dozer | 18:34 |
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| * mgedmin once had fun doing this for his app: http://mg.pov.lt/blog/hunting-python-memleaks.html | 18:36 | |
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| mgedmin | incidentally, to put things in perspective, I've zopes with 1.4 gigs resident data | 18:36 |
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| mgedmin | it's a zope 3 app that's doing some suboptimal things like loading thousands of persistent objects for some requests, instead of using indexes/precalculation | 18:37 |
| mgedmin | I recommend collectd | 18:37 |
| mgedmin | watches memory usage of your server, draws pretty pictures | 18:37 |
| mgedmin | if you see a constant slope for a week, you'll know you have a leak | 18:38 |
| mgedmin | if it slopes and then evens out, it looks very different | 18:38 |
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| Skywise | thx for that advice | 18:38 |
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| kittonian | TheJester: you around? | 19:05 |
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| TheJester | Yes Kitt | 21:15 |
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| zenwryly | Is there a zope3 most recent release buildout somewhere for easy checkout? | 21:24 |
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| TresEquis | zenwryly: bluebream | 21:36 |
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| TresEquis | http://bluebream.zope.org/ | 21:36 |
| zenwryly | TresEquis: tx | 21:46 |
| TheJester | There's a 1 fish, 2 fish, red fish, blue fish joke in there somewhere | 21:47 |
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| TresEquis | 2 zope, 3 zope, bluebream isn't zope? | 22:05 |
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| TheJester | Bobo, Zope 2, Zope 3, Blue Bream? | 22:09 |
| moo--- | mooooore web framewoooorks | 22:12 |
| TheJester | NotZopeYlons NotZopeJango NotZopeZope3 | 22:13 |
| TresEquis | Not to forget Ian's ZTurPlango | 22:13 |
| TresEquis | which codes itself | 22:14 |
| TheJester | Can you hear the drums ZTurPlango... | 22:14 |
| moo--- | eval(world) | 22:14 |
| TheJester | from internet import code | 22:14 |
| TheJester | code.dwim() | 22:14 |
| TheJester | Those two lines pretty much sum up the amount of work most managers thinks are involved in writing a web application | 22:15 |
| TheJester | s/thinks/think/ | 22:15 |
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| zenwryly | TresEquis: joel burton was telling me about the z3 ZCA browser, can I take a look at it under bluebream? | 22:48 |
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| zenwryly | How do I get at the ZMI in a bluebream sampleproject? | 23:15 |
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| TresEquis | zenwryly: I don't know much about it: I don't actually use bluebream | 23:42 |
| zenwryly | TresEquis: I'm just trying to poke around under apidoc | 23:43 |
| zenwryly | TresEquis: looking for a clean zope 3 example of that | 23:43 |
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| TresEquis | zenwryly: you probably want Zope 3.4 then: http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/ | 23:47 |
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