IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-04-20

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teratornit seems that an HTTP POST with Content-Type: text/xml is always handled by zope3 as an XML-RPC call.... but I need to prevent that somehow, because I'm actually trying to handle a SOAP (which is also an HTTP POST as text/xml)04:21
mcdonci'm afraid you're out of luck unless you change ZPublisher; this is harcoded there04:25
mcdonc(grep for "Yee ha")04:26
teratornheh, OK... I might be able to get away with a monkey patch, but my co-workers might kill me04:27
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teratornmcdonc: I don't see anything relevant grepping for "Yee ha"... do you have a file/line no. instead? :)04:29
mcdoncZPublisher.HTTPRequest.HTTPRequest.processInputs, line 491204:39
mcdonc491 sorry04:39
mcdonclooks like some sort of recent support for SOAP in there if HTTP_SOAPACTION is present in the CGI environment04:41
mcdonci'm sure that's extremely well-documented ;-)04:41
teratornmcdonc: is that zope2 code you're looking at?04:41
teratornI'm using zope3 :/04:42
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mcdoncits the same shit with everything shuffled around and lowercased anyway ;-)04:42
teratornI found this, but I'm unsure how to use it or if it even works or is still maintained:
mcdonci definitely dont know, although maybe someone else in here does.. there's also a zope3-dev IRC channel.. usually this room is frequented by zope2 people04:44
binbrainlooks like that package is as about as up2date as the its dependencies ZSI05:34
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binbrainteratorn: if you get your answer be sure to document for those of us stuck living with SOAP :)05:43
teratornbinbrain: :)05:44
binbrainwe monkey patch publisher and have some ugly wrapper around soaplib. it works though05:44
binbrainthis is Z205:44
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TKtiddleI can have a script in zope which I can access from the browser by going to http://localhost:8080/testView . I'm trying to insert the output of this script into a page template using tal:replace="structure view/testView" but I get an Error type: transversalError; Error Value:(, 'testView')15:53
TKtiddlewhat am I doing wrong?15:54
betabugTKtiddle: I don't know if TAL knows what "view" is in your "view/testView"15:55
TKtiddlebetabug: OK I used context/view .. this works.. thanks15:57
betabugcool :-)15:57
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TKtiddleanyone know how to call context/index.html from python script?16:42
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bigkevmcdthat doesn't look quite right16:51
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hannoschTheuni1: do you know what the status is, of the Grok guys nominating someone for the ZTK release group?17:57
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Theuni1good question17:59
Theuni1not of the top of my head17:59
hannoschTheuni1: ok :) then you know as much as I do :)17:59
Theuni1they did not respond on the mailing list18:00
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Theuni1sounds like i need to talk to them on the grok-dev list18:00
hannoschplease do :)18:00
TresEquisare we started already?18:00
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hannoschno. I had a non-agenda question18:01
* Charlie_X is ready18:01
* ccomb too18:01
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TresEquisah, ok18:01
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Theuni1lets start then18:02
* TresEquis quotes the Lion King shaman monkey: "It is time"18:02
Theuni1questions about the agenda?18:03
TresEquisagroszer: you're up ;)18:03
* agroszer present18:03
Theuni1(Agenda's here:
agroszerregarding KGS 3.4.1, I guess we should wait for the bugday18:04
Theuni1So the topic is version hell18:04
Theuni1agroszer: for the release that's definitely a good idea18:04
Theuni1OTOH you wanted to talk about version problems18:04
agroszerthere's a big chaos out there18:04
agroszerbugfixes are mixed with features and vice-versa18:05
ccombyesterday I've tried z3c.formdemo18:05
agroszeradd some random major and minor version bumps18:05
Charlie_XBugday is
ccombit didn't work because the latest version of has major changes18:05
ccombalthough it has been released as a minor version18:06
ccombI've also tried to buildout an old version of z3c.formdemo18:06
ccombit didn"t work either, because there is no version information18:06
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ccombWhen I've released z3c.layer and layer.minimal, same problem18:06
agroszerso my question is, do want to enforce some rules regarding this?18:06
ccombwe should probably provide some tool to use just before releasing18:07
agroszerlike at least having a "stable" branch?18:07
TresEquisccomb:  is z.a.securitypolicy latest version in the zopeapp.cfg file?18:07
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TresEquisyour[ nightlies for the ZTK are good data:  only thing is, I can't see in the output what versions are being used18:08
ccombyes it is in 3.5.218:08
ccombit should have been 3.6.018:08
TresEquisis the cfg file for that the main ZTK cfg?18:08
Theuni1agroszer: we do have rules for one, so we should enforce them. :)18:09
TresEquisMartijn Faassen is the one who made those changes, right?18:09
Charlie_X+1 on minor for bug fixes only18:09
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ccombWe should have a tool that would be run just before releasing, and that check several points : whether new version is appropriate, whether tests pass on all versions, etc.18:10
ccombThere is also a problem with version information in individual packages18:10
TresEquisjust before releasing what?18:11
TresEquisan individual package?18:11
ccombif you want to run the buildout and launch the tests, you don't know which versions to use18:11
TresEquisor the zopeapp set?18:11
agroszerI'm not sure that will work18:11
ccombfor example z3c.layer from two years ago18:11
ccombyou have to manually and arbitrary add version information in the buildout18:11
TresEquisshould be run against the 3.4.0 KGS, .likely18:11
TresEquiscan't possibly expect it to run against current ZTK18:12
agroszerlikely -- that's the point ;-)18:12
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TresEquisbulidout.cfg should point to that index18:12
ccombmaybe we should include an optional versions extend, or a dev buildout for each package18:12
agroszeractually -- buildout.cfg does not get released, does it?18:12
ccombor something18:12
Charlie_XI can't think of any heuristics for that kind of check. Only rigorously enforcing policy by "unreleasing" incorrectly labelled versions, if possible.18:13
Theuni1Sounds like thats an issue because those indexes weren't really established when those packages were created.18:13
TresEquisit is part of the SVN tag18:13
Theuni1Charlie_X: unreleasing is a no-go.18:13
Charlie_Xoh well18:13
* TresEquis votes again against the "KGS + PyPI" quasi-index18:13
TresEquiscan't possibly be a KGS18:13
agroszerrevert in svn, re-release as a next version should work18:14
Theuni1TresEquis: you mean including a KGS from the development buildout of a package?18:14
TresEquisTheuni1: at this point, we should release z.a.securitypolicy 3.5.3 reverting the changes in 3.5.218:14
Theuni1TresEquis: yeah, that's what i thought as well18:14
TresEquisand release the current 3.5.2 as 3.6.018:14
agroszerthat's the way18:14
Theuni1Seems like that's the remedy that holds all assumptions we have otherwise.18:14
TresEquisTheuni1: I mean the code which tries to build an index as a PyPI mirror with the KGS packages overlaid on it18:14
Charlie_X+1 lead by example. Let us sheeple follow18:15
TresEquisneed to confirm with faassen first18:15
Theuni1TresEquis: yeah. right. what made you vote against it at this very moment, anyway?18:15
Theuni1and yeah for checking back with martijn18:15
agroszerTresEquis, there's an egg or something that dumps all picked versions18:15
TresEquisthe "old" indexes for th3 Z3 KGS aren't a "KGS"18:15
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Theuni1TresEquis: ah.18:15
TresEquisbecause they include random untested crap from PyPI18:16
TKtiddlewhat do i ahve to import to use context from an external script?18:16
TresEquislet's fix z.a.sp, then figure out what to do about policy for "old stable" indexes18:17
Theuni1agroszer: was that the only issue you had or are there more of those?18:17
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TresEquisbut in general, old versions of packages are going to need fixing to work with newer ZTK versions18:18
Theuni1TresEquis: yup18:18
agroszerTheuni1, I think there are more, but after checking all of the KGS's packages... I did not write up that info18:18
TresEquisagroszer: create bugs for each issue18:18
TresEquisfor now, put them in
hannoschI found a lot more of those when updating things for Zope 2.12.518:19
Theuni1and i guess putting the policy of re-releasing with a feature removed and a new major version into the documentation is worthwhile (just making a mental note for the minutes and my tasklist here)18:19
hannoschbut it's all for "old versions"18:19
TresEquisbecause we don't have project trackers for the* packages18:19
TresEquisTheuni1: z.a.sp is actually rereleasing with re-added deprecated imports18:19
Theuni1nice ;)18:20
Theuni1do we want to move to the next topic?18:20
* Charlie_X thinks that description sounds like "reclaimed meat"18:20
agroszeryup, follwo up in email18:20
Theuni1So, LP gardening and triage.18:21
Theuni1I think the bug trackers are pretty much in place now, right Tres?18:21
Theuni1One thing that you already mentioned is what happens to the* stuff18:21
TresEquiswe should think about trackers for the zopeapp.cfg projects18:21
TresEquisIdeally, I would like to move all Z3 bugs into a more focused project18:22
hannoschwould those all belong to BlueBream?18:22
TresEquisso that people who wanted to work on that package could review and close them before doing a release18:22
* Theuni1 hands out palantirs18:22
Theuni1hannosch: that's what i thought18:22
TresEquishannosch: maybe not:  Grok uses them too18:22
TresEquiswe need a "project group" for them18:23
TresEquislike 'zopetoolkit'18:23
Theuni1TresEquis: building on the zopeapp.cfg parallel to ztk.cfg, right?18:23
TresEquisBB and Grok both consume them18:23
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TresEquisI think maybe 'zopeapp'?18:23
Theuni1zopeapp would be fine IMHO18:23
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Theuni1toolkitmania seems over the top ;)18:23
Charlie_X+1 for being what it says on the tin18:23
hannoschit's certainly no toolkit at all :)18:24
sidneieyjafjallajokull would be a nice name too18:24
TresEquisI will work on the project group and projects18:24
Theuni1TresEquis: wait a second18:24
TresEquishmm ?18:24
Theuni1I do want to get another suggestion out that you can bash.18:24
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TresEquis"Fire when ready, Gridley!"18:25
Theuni1I wondered whether it was a mistake to split* into multiple distributions anyway. At some point I felt like the best way would have been to have be one distribution, like Zope 2 is.18:25
hannoschthat doesn't work well, since BB and Grok use different parts of the zopeapp set18:25
hannoschand some aren't used by anyone really18:25
Theuni1hannosch: are you saying they use it in ways that are incompatible to have all of them activaed?18:25
TresEquiswe definitely need input from BB and Grok on that18:25
* Charlie_X bets on the guy with the club beating the fish in a fight18:26
Theuni1hannosch: that isn't actually a problem because it's just superfluous stuff but not a contradiction. :)18:26
Theuni1TresEquis: we do.18:26
Theuni1i think thats a topic that the release engineering group for the ZTK could pick up18:26
TresEquissounds right18:26
Theuni1I send out mail to the grok-dev list already checking whether they want to join.18:26
Theuni1My point with the as a single distribution was to have less overhead WRT releases.18:27
hannoschwell, Zope2 doesn't use anymore, neither should the toolkit18:27
Theuni1and slim it out over time.18:27
Theuni1hannosch: which it doesn't due to certain events around last christmas, right? ;)18:27
TresEquis"grok vs. bb cage match"18:27
ccombsince* are more and more lightweight, I also think it could be gathered into one distribution18:27
Theuni1TresEquis: do you want to say something about the zope 3 bug triage until time is over?18:27
hannoschI think should be left to BB and Grok, but that's only me :)18:28
agroszeryup! bugday is coming18:28
TresEquisTheuni1: I plan to publish some docs before bugday18:28
TresEquiswhich outline a process for collaborating on one of the ZTK projects18:28
TresEquisusing SVN, or a DVCS18:28
TresEquisand how to interact with the LP tracker18:28
Theuni1ah, cool. could we get those to go into the developer documentation on
TresEquisI mean to move them there18:29
TresEquisalthough I may publish elsewhere to avoid red-tape at first18:29
hannoschTresEquis: that would be an extension of all the info at ?18:29
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* TresEquis doesn't know how to get stuff published on docs.zope.org18:29
TresEquishannosch: likely so18:29
TresEquismore aimed at "drive-by" contributors18:30
TresEquiscore process is still mostly the same18:30
Theuni1TresEquis: basically you check stuff in and some cronjobs pulls it out again ;)18:30
TresEquisOK, I'll look into that18:30
TresEquisI would prefer to be able to push stuff, but I'll wee18:30
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Theuni1yeah same here18:31
Theuni1if you pester jens he might do something to help you :)18:31
TresEquisif the cronjob ran every 5min or something, that would probably be fine18:31
TresEquisovernight is too much slop18:31
Theuni1I made him run it hourly instead of daily a while ago ;)18:31
Theuni1I'd rather have a post-commit-hook thing or something.18:31
TresEquiswhat host does it live on?18:32
Theuni1PING ( 56(84) bytes of data.18:32
Theuni164 bytes from ( icmp_seq=1 ttl=53 time=24.1 ms18:32
Theuni1that's docs.zope.org18:32
TresEquisbtw, why is SVN still in the ZC cluster?18:32
hannoschmeeting is over?18:32
TresEquishannosch: yup18:32
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Charlie_XTKtiddle: back to your question - what do you mean by an external script?18:33
Theuni1TresEquis: because nobody took it out from there? i guess it's an operational issue of keeping all the band aid with LDAP/updating scripts/ in place18:33
TresEquiswhy is the LDAP and in the ZC cluster?18:33
TresEquisccomb: can you highlight what versions.cfg your nightly build is using?18:35
* hannosch guesses both ldap and www are a pain to move18:35
ccombthe nightly build is using the sources configured in the mr.developer [sources] section18:35
J1mI'm happy to add something to the post commit script if desired.18:35
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ccombthey currently all point to the trunks18:36
TresEquisYay!  I just heard back from the MSFT guy on MSDN licenses18:36
TresEquissidnei:  can you remind me what we need to do?18:36
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J1mwe also maintain a svn secondary and could run scripts there.18:36
* Charlie_X has to sit down at that news18:36
ccombbut we can let the ztk.cfg use some branches instead of the trunks18:37
ccombthe package trunks should be considered the current development branches of the ZTK18:37
sidneiTresEquis, for EC2? i have an image with the visual studio express edition, which would be fine for python 2.618:37
ccombwhen we release or freeze the ZTK, all these sources should point to maintenance branches instead18:37
TresEquishow many MSDN licenses do we need to set up and run images with VS for Python 2.4. and 2.5?18:38
ccombthis is somewhat similar to Debian unstable/testing18:38
TresEquisJ1m: the script would need to poke docs.zope.org18:38
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sidneiTresEquis, we'd need a license for visual studio 2003, that's it18:40
Theuni1TresEquis: MSDN licenses are usually rather comprehensive allowing you to install almost as many copies as needed for development purposes.18:40
TresEquisdo we need images for different Windows versions?18:40
TresEquis32-bit vs 64-bit, etc?18:40
TresEquissidnei: what about the license for Windows itself?18:41
TresEquisI know the MSDN licenses can be used to host VMs18:41
sidneiTresEquis, it's embedded in the price for the ami18:41
TresEquisah, ok18:41
Theuni1so we basically need the MSDN license for the compiler18:41
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TresEquiswould we run more than one AMI?18:42
sidneinot necessarily18:43
TresEquisor would the MSDN license cover that case18:43
TresEquiswhat about testing, vs. just building packages18:43
Theuni1TresEquis: really depends on the specifics of the license. they tend to have variations. my experience was that you can use it for more than a single install.18:43
TresEquiscould we run Hudson / buildbot on different archis / Windows versions?18:43
Theuni1e.g. we had an MSDN Operating System license which covered as many build/testing/development installs of any windows version available as the person who had the license needed.18:44
TresEquisTheuni1: I think the ones being offered by MSFT are pretty comprehensive18:44
TresEquisbut they might need to be tied to individuals18:44
Theuni1which is hard to define for VMs run for a foundation that has a developer community anyway ... o_O18:44
TresEquisso I think we need to get together a (short) list of folks who agree to run the build and/or test images on behalf of the ZF18:45
regebroEh, I forgot about the meeting again.18:45
hannoschregebro: you fix zope.testing and we are all happy :)18:45
* Charlie_X suggests regebro add a reminder function to zope.testunner18:46
regebrohannosch: Yeah, I didn't have much to say anyway.18:46
* TresEquis offers three cheers for regebro's un-fscking work18:46
regebroCharlie_X: I put a repeat alarm on my phone. It didn't repeat.18:46
hannoschTresEquis: can you write a mail to zope-dev asking for Win volunteers? I'd guess sidnei and me would be interested. but I know there's more doing regular windows binary egg builds18:47
Theuni1TresEquis: hmm. hmm. from a continuity perspective I was thinking that the ZF might run the machines.18:47
Theuni1and hand out access to maintainers for them18:47
TresEquisTheuni1: I agree18:47
J1mTresEquis, I don't know if that's a problem, depending on the nature of the poke.18:47
TresEquisbut MSFT is reported to hand out these licenses to individuals18:47
Theuni1as they said in the mail18:47
Theuni1I wonder whether discussing t his with them would be worthwhile.18:48
TKtiddleCharlie_X: Im working with a on the filesystem, and i want to call zope objects as i do from templates.  For instance fill my template with content using tal:replace="structure view/render".  How can i make this call from a python script (because I want to edit content with python)18:48
agroszerTresEquis, Theuni1 isn't it possible to run the whole as a webservice?18:48
agroszerso one "person" runs the webservice18:49
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agroszeror how's that planned?18:49
Theuni1Ideally we'd arrive at an automated setup.18:49
Theuni1We're currently taking small steps though and try to get working intermediate scenarios.18:50
agroszerI see18:50
Charlie_XTKtiddle: can you paste some code to a codebin?18:50
Theuni1I don't think we have spelled this approach out explicitly, but that's what I see happening.18:50
* agroszer feels the pain in going from manual to automated18:51
agroszeran that on windowze18:51
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TresEquisWe would like to have the ZF pay for an EC2 image which wakes up periodically to run tests, build binaries18:51
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TresEquisin order to get there, we need to work out licenses for the developers who build and maintain that image18:52
TresEquis(or images)18:52
agroszerI see18:52
agroszergot it18:52
Theuni1I also see continuity issues if the developer leaves the community but the visual studio is licensed to him: do we have to reinstall everything?18:53
TresEquisand then ensure that running the image that way remains in compliance with the license terms18:53
TresEquiswe need to arrange for several of them, I think18:53
TKtiddlethis code shows how i am trying to access context methods/attributes from a pyton script :
TresEquisTKtiddle: you want 'self.context'18:55
TresEquisview instances have 'context' and 'request' as attributes18:55
sidneiTheuni1, typically you just change the license number, no need to reinstall18:55
TresEquisOK, I'm going to ask for three licenses, I think18:56
Theuni1sidnei: if that's possible we might be fine :)18:56
agroszerTresEquis, can you keep me in the loop? I also need to take care of some windoze servers18:56
TresEquishannosch, sidnei, who else?18:56
TresEquisagroszer: I can ask for a license for you, too18:56
TresEquiscan each of you send me full contact info?18:57
hannoschTresEquis: could you include Jan-Japp (running some of the ZTK windows buildbots)18:57
TresEquishannosch: OK, if you can send contact info for him18:57
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hannoschTresEquis: sent in mail18:58
Charlie_XTKtiddle: that's a straightforward BrowserView. Views get the context and the request assigned to them in their __init__ so you can just use self.context or self.request18:58
sidneiTresEquis, ok18:58
TresEquiscan I ask folks to take a quick glance over the ZTK buglist, and see if there is anything that can be triaged before bugday?
sidneiTresEquis, i guess name and address?18:58
TresEquisyup, plus email and phone18:59
Theuni1blood type18:59
hannoschblood sample for dna sequencing?18:59
TresEquisretinal scan18:59
Theuni1just in case you hurt yourself and they need to send you blood packs ;)18:59
hannoschthe usual :)19:00
agroszerTresEquis, I guess then mine too?19:00
TresEquisyes, please19:00
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TKtiddleCharlie_X: TresEquis: I have a view called testView can I can't seem to access it from this script using self.context.testView     ~feeling confused~19:02
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Charlie_XViews are not accessible directly like that as they don't "live" in the Zope database. They are registered for objects that are.19:05
Charlie_XAssuming you have registered your view for an object you will have given it a name, say "test.html", you can access it via that object using self.context.restrictedTraverser("test.html")19:07
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Charlie_XThis will cause Zope to look for the view with that name and return it.19:07
Charlie_XHowever, it's very ununusal to want to call one view from another.19:07
Charlie_XThis registration and indirection makes Zope much more flexible (than it used to be) but I understand that it's confusing at first.19:08
TKtiddleCharlie_X: what do I need to import to use restrictedTraverser?19:11
Charlie_XAssuming you're using Zope2, nothing. All Zope2 objects have the method restrictedTraverse() N.B. my typo from before. I think you can import from Acquisition and pass in the object to traverse as the first argument. Can you be more expansive about your example in some code and paste it somewhere? I'll be back in about an hour.19:14
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TKtiddleCharlie_X: thanks for the help, still have some way to go with understanding zope it seems19:16
TKtiddleanyone know a good zope book?19:16
TresEquisTKtiddle: for Zope2, has the "canonical" docs19:17
TresEquisAFAIK, there aren't any Zope2-only print books which haven't bitrotted19:17
TresEquisthere are some decent Plone books19:17
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TKtiddlethanks TresEquis, might go for a plone book19:20
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TKtiddleCould you look at my code please?20:06
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Charlie_XTKtiddle: are you using Silva?20:16
Charlie_XPhilip von Weiterhausen's book on Zope 3 is probably what you need.20:18
Charlie_XThe Plone books have a lot of good general stuff but also lots of plone specific stuff which will only get in your way.20:19
TKtiddleTrying to write a skin for silva20:19
Charlie_XYou should be able to CMF-style skins - and from your folder layout that looks like what you're trying to do.20:20
Charlie_XConceptionally you need to understand that BrowserViews and the Python modules that contain them are not the same as skin objects. Similar, yes but not the same.20:23
Charlie_XLooking at the configuration, stuff looks okay but I'm guessing that is largely cut/paste/modify20:24
TKtiddleIm trying to write a python script called '' to help with the presentation.  I want this script to get the silva content by calling the silva view method do some modifications and return it20:25
TKtiddleyes completely fudged skin20:25
Charlie_XI'll just clone your git so I can look work with it.20:25
Charlie_XI wouldn't worry too much about the skin bit at the moment. It's enough getting used to views first20:25
TKtiddleok let me know if you need anything to do that, using git for the first time too!20:26
Charlie_XI don't have a git account and I won't be setting one up. All these various DVCSs are giving me a headache!20:26
TKtiddleIve figured out how to register views using browser:page and understand that you can assign these views to a layer, which is inturn used by a skin20:27
Charlie_XLet's try to walk first.20:28
TKtiddlehmm.. yes20:30
Charlie_XYes, but don't worry about the layers at the moment. They only really make sense if you think you're going to let your users change skins while they view your site. This isn't the common use case.20:30
Charlie_XI don't know what your Products.SilvaLayout is but you shouldn't be loading it here.20:30
Charlie_XIf it's not there and you need it here, load it elsewhere! (presumably in a buildout or some other ZCML)20:31
TKtiddleIts some ?interface? / lib to help skinning silva; I think it makes the skin selectable from the silva user interface; but i dont know why I think that20:32
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TKtiddleI have silvaLayout in products dir20:33
Charlie_XWell forget about it at the moment. Let's just concentrate on getting you working with Views20:33
Charlie_XThen don't load it again.20:33
TKtiddleDid I mention im running zope 2 but the silvaLayout  way is to write skins in z3 using five20:34
Charlie_XWhat happens if you call /filter on your site?20:34
Charlie_XYou didn't mention it but I know that much. Just don't know which version of Zope2 Silva is using. That's not that important, though.20:35
TKtiddle404 becaus its not registered globally; its registered to the skin20:35
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Charlie_XDrop the all the skin commands in your configuration20:35
TKtiddlefilter gets picked ok OK by templates registered to this skin20:35
TKtiddleOK... letting go..20:36
Charlie_XYou may conflicts on a restart (any view changes require Zope to restart) so you might need to comment your index.html views out.20:37
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Charlie_XI really think you don't want to parse your generated HTML in another view20:39
TKtiddleOK dropped all layer feilds from configure.zcml files.. localhost/filter noe gives <Products.Five.metaclass.TestView object at 0xb46e8ac>20:42
Charlie_XBut that isn't so important at the moment20:42
Charlie_XOkay, so things are working at the moment - the filter is returning the testView but it isn't calling it20:43
Charlie_Xreturn self.context.restrictedTraverse("testView")()20:43
Charlie_XShould work20:43
TKtiddlejust thinking... ok makes sense20:44
Charlie_XPhilip's book has extensive coverage of Views and the whole configuration stuff.20:45
Charlie_Xcallable classes usually mean a double take: instance = MyCallable(); instance()20:45
Charlie_XOne of the important things about Views is that there are no restrictions on what you can do with Python.20:46
Charlie_XFar more important than the "layer=..." is the "for=..." when registering a view20:47
TKtiddleCan you tell me how to call here/view from a script?20:47
Charlie_X"here" doesn't exist. But "here" is the same as "self.context"20:47
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Charlie_XWhere do you want do that?20:48
TKtiddleso self.context.view() for a BrowserView instance?20:48
Charlie_XThat would call the view method on the context object.20:49
Charlie_Xself *is* the view20:49
Charlie_XWhat do you want to do?20:49
TKtiddleI want to call from a; filter gets context/view, does stuff to it and returns html to the template which renders it20:51
Charlie_XA is just a dumb file unless you register it as or for a view.20:52
Charlie_XYou can register a template for a view class. In that case the template can automatically access the view class via "view"20:52
TKtiddleyes both and are registered as views20:53
Charlie_XBut not the same view20:53
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TKtiddleso register a view with  for=Filter.filter20:54
Charlie_XYou can call another view from a template using <tal:block content="structure context/@@filter" />20:54
Charlie_XWhere @@ is effectively the same as calling context.restrictedTraverse("filter")()20:55
TKtiddleis browser:page for creating views?20:55
TKtiddlestructure context/@@filter this is an alternative method to creat a view?20:55
Charlie_XIt won't create one but it will call one. The "@@" ensures you call a registered view instead of an object method.20:56
TKtiddleThanks so much for the help Charlie_X I'm going to get that zope book to get things straight20:57
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Charlie_XHope you get things sorted. I found it took me a while to get used to Views but I really like them now and Philip's book is very comprehensive and exceedingly well written.20:58
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TKtiddleat least i getting somewhere.  Zope is hard! But wont be beaten!20:59
TKtiddlethanks again for the help20:59
Charlie_XThat's the spirit! As I said calling a view and then manipulating it's content is unusual. Normally you just want to display it's contents or access it's values.21:01
Charlie_XIt is not the same as chaining PythonScripts together.21:01
planetzopebotWhy I stopped doing Plone (Andy McKay)
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TKtiddleYeah we know about django21:05
TKtiddlethink im talking to abot again21:06
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Charlie_XBFG is what we're getting excited about. Sort of like Django but with Zope21:07
Charlie_XAndy has a lot of experience - he wrote a book on Plone. But that experience means he's seen all the downside. Plone grew uncontrollably and very quickly and a lot of developers suffered as a result.21:09
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Charlie_XI think Silva may be better because it's more focussed on universities. But I have never worked with it.21:10 is built on Silva21:10
TresEquisso I know it as a user21:10
Charlie_XAnd, how does it fair? I've always thought that the UI benefited from trying not trying to be so sexy all the time.21:12
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TresEquisI'm probably the wrong person to ask:  AFAIC, it is perfectly servicable21:19
TresEquisbut I don't have a very high level of need for eyecandy21:20
Theuni1also silva has had steady support from infrae over all the years and was close to the development of zope itself including stuff like five21:22
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Theuni1TresEquis: i'm picking up a discussion with akm about relicensing the ZODB guide to make it conform to the repository policy. i think he doesn't have checkin rights. would a formless letter ala "i hereby license the ZODB guide according to the terms of the ZPL to the ZF" be enough?21:36
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Theuni1J1m: do you mind if I do pep8 cleanups when touching ZODB code?22:19
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J1mTheuni1, probably. (I probably mind.) I don't follow all of PEP 8. Some of it is just stupid.22:26
J1mwhat "cleanups" were you thinking of?22:26
J1mand what code were you touching?22:26
J1mare you22:27
Theuni1I'm playing with the thought of touching the ZEO server figuring out if there's an acceptable way to log the class of an object when conflict resolution was performed or failed.22:27
Theuni1What parts of PEP 8 don't you follow?22:27
J1mThe dumb parts. :)22:28
Theuni1doesn't help ;)22:28
J1mThe import order bit is just insane.22:28
Theuni1ah, right.22:28
Theuni1I'm following pretty much everything else and thus my editor reports deviations to me which I tend to just quickly fix before making the real change.22:28
Theuni1Stuff like superfluous/too little whitespace, long lines, ...22:29
J1mI like putting spaces around =s in keyword arguments on their own line. I don't mind if other people do things differently, but I get really annoyed when people change *my* code for the sole purpose of conformance to PEP 8.22:29
J1mThere are probably others that I can't remember. Tres has a pet peeve that I don't remember but that annoys the heck out of me whenever he explains it to me. :_22:30
J1mI prefer readability over pep 8 and pep 8 just gets it wrong sometimes. Also, readability is somewhat a matter of art, so I don't like changing people22:31
J1m's code just to conform to one sense.22:31
Theuni1Hmm. Then again its harder to establish common sense for lots of projects.22:32
J1mThere are egregious cases that should be fixed, like lines >80 characters.22:32
J1mSure, but the author deserves some respect.22:32
J1mand also, I hate cluttering change logs with superfluous changes.22:33
Theuni1well, i guess you end up with each author does his part then.22:33
Theuni1that's why i try  putting them in separate changes before making the actual change22:33
Theuni1i guess i don't bother cleaning up :/22:33
J1mPEP 8 is a find guide, but we shouldn't get crazy about it.22:33
Theuni1i was merely asking. pep 8 makes it simple to invoke tool support.22:34
Theuni1i found that to be quite helpful and made myself happy with pep 8 ;)22:34
J1myeah, that's fine to an extent.22:34
J1mI'm glad you made yourself happy.22:34
* J1m likes happiness.22:35
Theuni1I'm trying to extend on that to others but I can't guarantee the result ;)22:35
* J1m wishes there was a PEP for correct smiley usage22:35
J1mBecause, AFAIK, a wink means your kidding.22:36
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J1mWhich should not be confused with an ironic or funny but otherwise truthful statement.22:37
Theuni1So what's the funny-but-otherwise-truthful smiley?22:38
J1mMaybe this is a result of Tim Peters conditioning.  He used to make statements that I thought he meant but that he said I should have known weren't serioud because of the use of the wink.22:38
J1mAnd variations thereof.22:38
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Theuni1Here's what I found:22:39
Theuni1;)              Winking happy faces (something said tongue-in-cheek)22:39
J1mThis kidding22:39
Theuni1hmm. so there's also misunderstanding of tongue-in-cheek involved.22:39
Theuni1Gotta love communication.22:40
J1mBecause of the treatment I got from Tim, I take winks far too seriously.22:41
J1mMy bad.22:41
J1mSo, did I answer your questions about pep 8?22:42
Theuni1You did. Doesn't mean I like the result, but I know what not to do ;)22:42
* Theuni1 tries to use that smiley less often but it's really hard22:42
J1mNow you22:42
J1mNow you're taunting me with winks22:43
Theuni1I know. I think my fingers type that without thinking by now. There. I almost did it again. ;)22:43
* J1m wonders if Theuni1 really likes the result or doesn't know what to do, or both.22:43
Theuni1I don't like the result, but I know what to do.22:44
Theuni1Which I'm fine with.22:44
Theuni1J1m: looks like the storage server doesn't have too much information about the conflict when it logs it. Do you feel that it would be helpful if it logged the object's class name that was conflicting?22:49
Theuni1In that case I might dig deeper, but I have the feeling the code paths are too far away to do this without a serious performance penalty or restructuring.22:49
J1mI don't think the storage server should log anything about conflicts.22:50
J1mIf it does now, which wouldn't surprise me, then I'd consider that a bug.22:50
Theuni1Hmm. Then there's a bit of buggyness there. :)22:50
J1mIn general, I don't think servers should log events that are not their fault.22:50
J1mCould be, we often get logging wrong.22:51
J1mI know ZODB often does.22:51
J1mJim's principal of information: present information to parties that can act on it.22:52
Theuni1Ok, so my task moves around a bit: the server shouldn't log that, but then I'd need to make sure that the client does because *someone* needs to log the info that there was a conflict.22:52
J1mIf there's a conflict, it's a problem for the client.22:52
Theuni1Does ZEO propagate the information that there was a  conflict back to the client?22:52
J1mOf course, if you have the oid, you can get the class.22:52
Theuni1alright then.22:52
J1mGetting the class is icky, especially on the server.22:53
Theuni1yeah, just doing that look up in that part of the code felt wrong right away22:53
J1mI'd rather the server not do that.22:53
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Theuni1OTOH if the client has an oid that conflicted its probably cheap to get the class22:53
* Theuni1 goes off writing a bug22:54
J1mThe bigger problem is that the log messages don't contain database names.22:54
Theuni1that, too22:54
J1mWhich is a hassle when you use multiple dbs, as we often do.22:54
J1mwhich means the oid isn't enough to get the class.22:55
Theuni1if you have the corresponding connection around it should be enough22:55
J1mYOu can usually figure it out, but it would be better to have the db name too.22:55
Theuni1because that already knows which DB you're talking about22:55
Theuni1but you're talking about logging now22:55
J1myes, but that doesn't help when you're looking at the logs.22:55
J1mI'd much rather have the db name than the class.22:56
TresEquisTheuni1: WRT the ZODB docs: I think an e-mail to foundation-info would be fine:  we can then vote to incorporate those docs as falling under an exception to the "only commit your own stuff" rule22:58
TresEquisJ1m:  the tool I'm using for "on-the-fly" checking is pyflakes22:58
TresEquiswhich can run inside both vim and emacs22:58
Theuni1TresEquis: OK. So I could proxy for amk, for example?22:59
TresEquisand highlights common mistakes like unused imports, name errors, unused names, etc22:59
TresEquisTheuni1: yes, I think so22:59
Theuni1TresEquis: mind putting that on the agenda? i'm not sure i have my edit rights accessible.23:00
TresEquisTheuni1: don23:05
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TresEquisJ1m: wrt PEP 8, I think the prescriptions on naming are weird23:07
TresEquisespecially the preference for lowercasewithoutunderscores23:07
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TresEquisover lowercase_with_underscores or mixedCase23:10
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Theuni1TresEquis: for what class of names?23:17
Theuni1my reading of pep 8 recommends using underscores for readability on attribute, function and method names.23:18
TKtiddleTresEquis: Charlie_X: getting to grips with zope finally, thanks for the support Everyone!23:21
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J1mTresEquis, the thing I wasn't remembering (and still can't remember) wasn't naming related.  I just remember you mentioning it to me and thinking "oh yeah, that's really dumb." :)23:27
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TresEquishmm, I can't remember either23:31
TresEquisrunning over any sizable chunk of my code would probably bring it back, though ;)23:31
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