IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-04-27

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Charlie_XCan't make today's meeting. Off to wear a big smile at World Plone day in Bonn.14:04
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* Charlie_X is an idiot16:37
Charlie_XStill, we had a nice drive and found out which bits of which motorways are being worked on.16:37
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planetzopebotMoonshining: Making WSGI for Fun and Profit (Palladion Software Blog)  http://palladion.com/home/tseaver/obzervationz/2010/pse_wsgi_training-2010042617:04
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Theuni1tada18:00
agroszermeetingtime18:00
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baijumHi all18:01
Theuni1anything about the agenda?18:01
Theuni1sounds like a no18:01
Charlie_XI think 2 before 1 makes more sense18:01
Theuni1ok18:02
ccomb1hi18:02
Theuni1good point18:02
Theuni1so, topic: review bug day outcome18:02
Charlie_XDo the breamers want to talk about their things first? It was their idea.18:03
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* Charlie_X shudders at the cheesy fish-slapping joke from PyCon18:03
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baijumI couldn't participate due to some personal matters18:03
planetzopebotDrop-dead Dropbox Doings with Deliverance (BlueDynamics Alliance - Zope Related)  http://bluedynamics.com/articles/johannes/drop-dead-dropbox-doings-with-deliverance18:04
baijumccomb1: & astoon: any updates ?18:04
planetzopebotWorld Plone Day 3 Puts Plone on Global Display April 28th (Plone News)  http://plone.org/news/wpd2010-pressrelease18:04
ccomb1I've been working on zope.container and zope.app.container (namechooser)18:04
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goschtlI have the feeling it would make more sense to do it not on a weekend...18:04
agroszerccomb, did you do any backporting?18:05
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agroszergoschtl, for the next one we could vote...18:05
ccombyes on branches 3.5 and 3.618:05
Charlie_XI think no date would be perfect for everyone. The important thing was it happened.18:05
goschtlok18:05
ccombI could deserve some minor release, but I'm afraid with the windows binary eggs18:05
Theuni1Charlie_X: yeah. so maybe moving it between weeks and weekends would be an idea.18:05
Theuni1its easier for me to make it during a week.18:05
* Charlie_X doesn't think voting is such a good idea. Try and gauge consensus and make a reasonable suggestion.18:05
agroszerccomb, no problem we can ask someone for binaries18:06
agroszerCharlie_X, ok, you throw the dice18:06
astoonbaijum: I start work on documentation for BB right now. And going to see bugs on LP also, for ZTK18:06
ccombI've also helped with z3c.formdemo for KGS 3.4.1. It was not working after the changes in z3c.layer18:06
ccombit can also be released18:07
Charlie_XDo we think once a month is about right?18:07
Theuni1ok, we're losing focus a bit18:07
baijumastoon: I remeber you have fixed a "duplicate logging handler issue"18:07
Theuni1I think we don't have time to detail into every issue that was fixed.18:07
astoonyes, it is fixed18:08
Theuni1Maybe all the people who were at the bug day can give a quick say of what they experienced and maybe whether something particularly good or bad happened?18:08
Charlie_XI enjoyed Bug day even though I essentially just committed patches that I did a long time ago.18:08
Charlie_XIt was good to be able to ask the simplest questions knowing that other people were also working on bugs.18:08
Charlie_XWe've got a lot of bugs still to work out and coding style and tests must improve.18:08
Theuni1I'll start myself: I was there during 9am CEST and 3pm CEST and I got all the bugs attached to Zope 3 that had a patch attached out of the way. I also started going to one of the most "hot" bugs: referer handling of testbrowser, but that isn't finished yet. I'd like to see bug days happen monthly but I'll have a hard time joining them on weekends.18:09
Theuni1Charlie_X: yeah. I think if we do this regularly, we'll get quite far regarding getting bugs out of the way and maybe we get a better grip on how to improve the documentation: Tres actually already started preparing for that.18:09
Theuni1agroszer: you were there too, do you want to give a quick summary?18:10
* Charlie_X suggests 19th May for the next fest18:10
agroszerI worked on the KGS3.4.1, made some progress but it still needs some work to be ready. I guess I'll finish it in small steps.18:10
astoonI think Bug Day is good mention to us that need to work on zope bugs regularly.18:10
Charlie_X"little and often"18:10
Theuni1Charlie_X: right.18:10
Theuni1may 19 sounds lovely ;)18:11
agroszerDefinitely bug days at least monthly, I can manage weekday or weekend.18:11
baijum+1 for monthly (week days are fine)18:11
Charlie_X2010-05-19 it is then18:11
Theuni1sounds like it :)18:11
ccomb+1 but I prefer the WE18:11
* agroszer opening the calendar18:11
baijumDo we need a another wiki ?18:11
ccombunless it's on wednesday18:11
Theuni1baijum: if you could copy the last one, that would be good18:12
Charlie_Xccomb: you get some weekend in June for the one after.18:12
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agroszer19 is a wed18:12
Theuni1ccomb: 19th seems to be a wednesday18:12
ccombgreat18:12
Charlie_XAt least in Germany it is. Not sure about France. Time seems different, there! ;-)18:12
baijumI am going to create http://wiki.zope.org/zope (A new ZWiki) with the help of sm, is that Ok ?18:12
Charlie_XGo for it baijum18:13
Charlie_XI really appreciated Tres' exhortations in the week before.18:13
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Charlie_XAnd I think there were a couple of things that came up that could be added to the docs. One important thing - we did have people taking part who don't have commit rights for svn.zope.org. So +10 for Tres for his anticipation of this.18:14
* baijum1 got disconnected18:14
baijum1I am going to create http://wiki.zope.org/zope (A new ZWiki) with the help of sm, is that Ok ?18:14
agroszerohh btw, Theuni1 what about the pinning/dumping versions with tags issue?18:15
Theuni1baijum1: why not stay with the bluebream wiki for now? just reating a new wiki for that bug day seems overkill18:15
Charlie_XGo for it baijum18:15
Theuni1agroszer: i didn't quite follow that, you might wanna put that on the list18:15
agroszerok18:16
baijum1A general wiki would be better, not just for bugdays18:16
baijum1a common wiki or Zope18:16
baijum1*for18:16
Theuni1baijum1: "general zope" isn't defined very well currently18:16
Theuni1so i'm afraid of a very blurry place where nobody knows what should go there18:17
baijum1Theuni1: Zope project ?18:17
Charlie_XCan we get PEP8 validation in the tests or post-commit?18:17
Theuni1Charlie_X: likely not18:17
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woscCharlie_X: going all "thou shall not pass" sounds a little like overkill ;)18:18
Theuni1Charlie_X: i deal with those issues directly in my editor when saving18:18
Charlie_XPity. Now that I've got PyLint working again I'm trying to work it out how to use it regularly. And to tweak it to stop it complaining all the time about method and variable names.18:18
Theuni1anybody needs to say more things abuot the bug day?18:18
* Charlie_X needs to learn how to use his editors.18:19
ccombare there any pending release to do after the bugday?18:19
Charlie_XIt was a success18:19
Theuni1+1 ;)18:19
Theuni1ccomb: i think so18:19
Theuni1I made quite a few bug fixes but didn't want to release right away18:19
baijum1Ok, we will continue to use BB wiki for time being.. we can discuss it later, if we need to move18:19
ccombok it's not a good idea to release after each commit18:19
Theuni1yup18:19
Theuni1launchpad has a specific status for that18:20
Theuni1"fix committed"18:20
Theuni1we can check for those and then go and release them18:20
agroszernext topic?18:21
agroszerbefore time's up18:21
Theuni1state of LP18:21
Theuni1in preparation for the bug day I created the project group "zopeapp"18:21
Charlie_XMore gardening required on the launchpad, methinks18:21
Theuni1whenever I found a bug that needed moving, I created projects there18:21
Theuni1Charlie_X: definitely18:21
Theuni1zope 3 still has open bugs assigned to them, although they did go down quite a bit thanks to all the contributors (you know who you are)18:22
Charlie_XGardening in the run up to a bug day is a good idea.18:22
Theuni1one specific thing that I'm a bit uncomfortable with our "zope.org" project group18:22
Charlie_XWhy TheJester18:23
Theuni1it's a kind of grabbag for anyone who wants to be associated "with us" but doesn't have any meaning IMHO18:23
Charlie_Xeek!18:23
Charlie_Xdoesn't zope.org relate to ZTK?18:23
srichterTheuni1: what would you liek the group to be? the web masters?18:23
Theuni1srichter: not people group18:23
Theuni1project group18:23
Theuni1https://edge.launchpad.net/zope18:24
Theuni1this doesn't have much value imho and is very misleading18:24
Theuni1it's even featured on the launchpad homepage if you look closely18:24
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agroszeryup, last one18:26
agroszerit's the one-big-mess story18:26
Theuni1so imho that group needs to go away. ideally we could put our project groups like zopetoolkit, grok and others there18:26
srichterTheuni1: ok, I see, mhh18:26
Theuni1but launchpad doesn't allow hierarchies of project groups18:26
srichterTheuni1: why not leave it as a launching pad18:26
Theuni1so my feeling is to remove that project group and ask launchpad to remove their thing to point to zopetoolkit18:26
Theuni1srichter: because currently it's misleading18:27
srichtercould we use some free text to describe our sub-groups18:27
Theuni1then we need to figure out what that would be. we could to that of course. :)18:27
Charlie_X"Zope is the collection of things formerly known as Zope"18:27
Theuni1lol18:27
srichterI just think the name ion LP is nice and it is well advertised18:27
srichterwould be a shame to loose that marketing18:27
Charlie_XWe need a shiny badge for the Toolkit that we can wear with pride.18:28
Theuni1srichter: i have that feeling too, but currently the actual content hurts more than it helps18:28
Theuni1so, it sounds like that various changes since last time WRT launchpad don't spur any controversy by itself, we do need to continue gardening.18:29
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Charlie_XWe could have a discussion on the mailing list to identify the common things - the various projects have a lot in common.18:29
baijumI can see many projects listed here: https://edge.launchpad.net/zope it's not a relation ?18:30
Theuni1Charlie_X: right. it's somewhat a risk to start bikeshedding about ;)18:30
Theuni1baijum: they are *somewhat* related. but mainly it's just messy.18:30
Theuni1the tools for project groups don't work that way in Launchpad18:30
Theuni1time's over18:31
Theuni1tres wasn't around to report on the windows progress he made, but there is some :)18:31
Theuni1that's it for today18:31
agroszeryup, seems like msdn subsr. is in progress18:31
agroszerbut I got no response yet after the registration18:32
Charlie_XOkay, same time next week.18:33
Charlie_XI'm off to continue the fascinating work on CMF's CookieCrumbler18:33
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Theuni1Charlie_X: eek. i just fiddled with that last week :(18:34
Charlie_XDo tell Theuni118:35
Charlie_XYuppie has a branch with quite a few changes.18:35
Charlie_XAnd I break more than I fix.18:35
Charlie_X:-)18:35
* baijum the idea of using #zope IRC channel for weekly meeting will work for "zope" launchpad project and "zope" wiki18:36
Charlie_XIt will be no more folderish and will not handle unauthorized any more.18:36
Charlie_XAnd I want to get rid of some acquisition warts18:37
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regebroMy new awesome zope.testrunner + zope.testing is so far looking good on Plone 4... <fingers crossed, touch wood>20:50
Charlie_Xwoot20:52
regebroDammit. One more test failed.20:59
* Charlie_X groans21:03
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srichterregebro: that's great news21:28
srichterregebro: now we just need a way to better promote zope.testing21:28
regebrosrichter: Once I have fixed the failing wicked test, yes. :)21:28
regebroIt's a BBB issue in wicked, so it's not a disaster, but it should be easy. :)21:29
Charlie_XThere's a great sense of anticipation in the room as the crowd looks on...21:29
srichter:-)21:30
Charlie_XA bit like the Tango ads - do you know them?21:31
regebroWell, there we go! Failing test fixed!21:35
* Charlie_X claps and stomps his feet, popcorn flying everywhere.21:36
regebroping J1m? If you have time, otherwise I'll take it on zope-dev.21:36
srichterregebro: are you going to make a new release of zope.testing (should get a major, major version bump) and zope.testrunner?21:36
srichterregebro: J1m is on #zope3-dev, so he probably responds there21:37
regebrosrichter: Not just yet.21:37
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regebroOK, joining zope3-dev too. :)21:38
regebrosrichter: I want to convince Jim that its' the right thing to do, and port zope.testrunner to Python 3 first.21:38
regebroAnd update the testing recipe to be able to use both zope.testrunenr or zope.testing.testrunner.21:39
regebroBut that should be it.21:39
srichterregebro: I cannot imagine why he would object21:39
srichtermakes perfect sense to me21:39
Charlie_Xme too. I thought the discussion had been had. We need testing to proceed with porting the rest.21:40
regebrosrichter: Because monkey-patches are ebil. :) And I agree, they are, but as noted (by you, I don't remember?) less ebil than an incompatible version.21:40
srichterregebro: I think Marius made that argument21:41
regebroCharlie_X: The discussion was had, but jim never responded to the followups to his -1.21:41
J1mregebro, ?21:41
srichterregebro: see using the J1m enough makes him pay attention ;-)21:42
regebroJ1m: my zope.testing branch is ready, and zope.testrunner is almost ready.21:42
J1mJust once is enough to trigger growl. I have to be looking at my screen to notice the growl pop ups.21:42
regebroIt monkeypatches stdlib, as mentioned, for BBB compatibility.21:42
regebroYou -1:d that, I want to try to convince you that it's a good idea. :)21:43
J1mYou won't.21:43
regebroHmm.21:43
J1mWhich isn't to say you can't get away with releasing the change, but I'll still be -1.21:44
J1mstill a strong -1.21:44
regebroThe alternatives are to not support Python 3 for the forseeable future, or simply drop zope.tetsing.doctest with no BBB. I think those alternatives are worse.21:44
srichterok, what do we want to achieve? Maybe we don't even need to care about BBB, which makes this issue mute?21:44
J1mI think dropping zope.testing.doctest for python3 is fine.21:45
regebroJ1m: Yeah, but that's tricky to do without also dropping it for Python 2.21:45
srichterregebro: really? Can we not just have a version check?21:45
J1mI would think that isn't that hard with a little setup.py work.21:46
regebroThere is not only monkey patches, but also a deprecation warning.21:46
srichterlike distribute our doctest.py as _doctest.py and in __init__.py do the check and import21:46
J1mthere ya go21:46
regebrosrichter: It will still get copied and 2to3 run to it, and that will fail.21:46
regebroGiving error messages.21:47
regebroPossibly the setup.py can have explicit file lists, but that seems silly.21:47
srichterthen call it _doctest.py.bak2 and rename the file when in Py221:47
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* J1m is going to start a Python tea party movement21:47
* J1m doesn't want to pay the p3k tax21:48
srichterJ1m: what is your goal? Oh, I forgot the tea party has no goals.21:48
regebrosrichter: Seems hard to do and still have it working in development mode.21:48
J1msrichter, :)21:48
srichterregebro: it will work in dev mode, since the module's __init__ always does the right thing based on version21:49
J1mpy3k is a problem that has to be solved -- alot like the tea party movement :)21:50
srichterregebro: I guess a custom fixer fir 2to3 would also work21:50
srichterJ1m: we don't need no education (and no roads too)21:50
regebrosrichter: renaming it in the __init__? Ew...21:50
Charlie_XJ1m: this kind of tea party? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgzEBLa3PPk21:50
srichterregebro: well,I think that could be better than a monkey patch21:51
regebroYeah, Python 3 is a problem, a gradual move would have been better. But there ya go...21:51
J1msrichter, actually, I'd like to build things, but py3k is sucking up resources instead.21:51
J1mpy3k is stop energy21:52
regebrosrichter: OK, you try it. I don't see how it works without massive ugliness...21:52
srichterJ1m: oh now I see, like the guys in the big white building around the corner from you... that makes sense :-)21:52
* J1m thanks regebro and srichter for an excuse to vent about py3k -- I usually don't think about it. :)21:52
J1msrichter, I suppose.21:53
* Charlie_X given J1m's response wonders if py3k will go the same way as zope 321:53
* J1m doesn't *really* want to people to think he's a tea partier.21:53
regebroCharlie_X: We'll know in a year or two.21:54
J1mz3 can at least be absorbed/backported to z2.21:54
regebroAnyhooo, I won't port zope.testrunner to Python 3 until we have an acceptable zope.testing branch for Python 3. I think we *do* but that's me. :)21:55
srichterCharlie_X: I don't think so; they have tried much harder to have a migration path; and the work that Tarek, Lennart and others are doing are witness to that (I think)21:55
Charlie_XIsn't that what's largely happened with Python 2.6 & 2.7?21:55
regebroCharlie_X: Partly, yes.21:56
regebroThe big issue is binary vs string vs unicode. That could have been solved differently.21:56
Charlie_Xah21:56
srichteryeah, and based on the python-dev discussions not all kinks are worked out yet either21:57
regebroAnd we could have had a gradual path. yes, it would have taken 5-6 years, but so will Python 3.21:57
srichterthat scares me most about trying Py3 (other than I cannot do anything useful)21:57
J1mregebro, I support and appreciate what you're doing.  Please don't misunderstand me.21:57
J1mBut, having said that, I'm still -1 on monkey-patching the stdlib.21:58
regebrosrichter: doctests explode in a big firework, unfortunately.21:58
Charlie_XIt's a chicken and egg situation - no libraries = no developers = no libraries21:58
J1mI'd be for finding out a way to use the stdlib doctest for py3k without patches.21:58
regebroJ1m: Thanks, I don't misunderstand it like that. It's just that I've ported the testrunner twice already and it's a LOT of work.21:58
J1mI'm sure it can be done somehow, but I'm not interested in spending the time to figure out myself. Sorry.21:59
regebroI'm not going to do it again unless I know it will be merged.21:59
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Charlie_XI think if regebro's work allows us to bootstrap the rest of the work, the monkey patch can be removed in time.21:59
regebroAnd that means I want a zope.testing branch without the testrunner that runs on Python 3 (and can run Plone 4 tests).22:00
J1mCharlie_X, that's a fair point.22:00
regebroready for merging.22:00
srichterregebro: J1m: I am for finding the easiest way to get Lennarts functionality while not monkey-patching; this way the work can be merged quickly and will not bit rot22:00
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Charlie_XWhat about J1m's suggestion to use Manuel?22:01
srichterI would be fine with that too; I recently started using Manuel and relaly like it22:02
regebroCharlie_X: That's a matter of going through all modules and removing all use of zope.testing.doctest.22:02
J1mCharlie_X, I don't think regebro wan't to work that hard.22:02
J1mI don't blame him.22:02
Charlie_XI don't blame him either. But it could be put on the roadmap.22:03
J1mregebro, not necessarily, if you could make a zope.testing.doctest facade for manuel.22:03
J1mNot sure how hard that would be.22:03
regebroJ1m: Yeah, that could possibly work, but it sounds hard to do that so it's remotely compatible.22:04
Charlie_XI'm sure we'll hit a lot more other things with other modules once the port to 3 starts.22:04
regebroThere is a lot of little edgecases. :)22:04
J1mHere, let's just drop zope.testing.doctest from zope.testing and bump the first digit.22:04
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regebroCharlie_X: It's started. ;) zope.interface, .event and .exception s trunks all run on Python 3.22:05
J1measy peezy :)22:05
regebroJ1m: well, we can. But that's a pretty short deprecation period.22:06
srichterJ1m: yeah, I thought we started the discussion with that suggestion22:06
srichterI agree, just make a new major major release22:06
J1mBumping the first digit is always an option.22:06
regebroJ1m: I was gonna do that anyway. :)22:06
regebroAlthough I added zope.testing.testrunner BBB import too so strictly it's not needed I guess.22:07
J1mIMO, we should then still port bug fixes to 3.22:07
regebroIt's compatible enough to run Plone 4 tests without additional failures, so. :)22:07
J1mIOW, maintain 3 for a while, perhaps a set period.22:07
Charlie_Xhm - release with no zope.testing.doctest with the information that either a monkey patch or manuel fa├žade is required22:07
regebroI can release the monkey-patch as a separate product... :)22:08
regebrozope.testing.BBB22:08
Charlie_Xregebro: getting it to work with the borg is impressive22:08
J1mJust release 4 wo zope.testing.doctest and tell people who haven't updated their packages to use 3.22:08
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Charlie_XIf anyone really needs zope.testing.doctest then they can help on getting it to work.22:09
regebroJ1m: We'll I'm OK with that, even though it means I've wasted a couple of days. :)22:09
J1mor they can use 322:09
Charlie_XDon't think it of them as wasted.22:09
J1mThink of it as character building22:10
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* regebro tries.22:10
* regebro fails.22:10
Charlie_XAccording to your e-mail some of the stuff you put on the Python bugtracker. So maybe the stdlib will pick up the changes anyway.22:10
* Charlie_X offers regebro a nice cold beer22:10
regebroCharlie_X: Unlikely. Nobody cares. There isn't enough people triaging bugs for Python.22:11
* J1m dislikes the stdlib almost as much as py3k22:11
* regebro switches it for a whisky.22:11
* Charlie_X thinks J1m is hard to please22:11
Charlie_X;-)22:11
regebroYeah, I've realized that batteries included isn't as good as having a power cable.22:11
regebro(ie easy_install/pip/buildout/whatever)22:12
J1mIt's too hard to evolve packages in the stdlib, unless you don't actually need changes in a timely fashion. Putting packages in the stdlibb invites forks.22:12
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regebroYup.22:13
* Charlie_X really likes the stdlib but realises that it can never be perfect.22:14
Charlie_XA smaller stdlib is probably essential.22:14
regebroAnd I don't like unittests API, doctest is buggy, distutils doesn't do enough, etc, etc, etc. :)22:14
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regebroBut guido has realized this too, and pretty much says no now if anyone wants anything in stdlib.22:15
regebroinclusion in stdlib == death22:15
Charlie_XNo, it means freeze22:15
Charlie_XAnd that is often, in itself, no bad thing.22:16
regebroYeah, we'll lets freeze you and see how much you move afterwards. :)22:16
* J1m likes regebro's power cable analogy22:17
* J1m goes back to work22:17
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Charlie_XI think the problem is tying the stdlib to Python versions.22:17
regebroWhat would the alternative be?22:17
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regebroOh, shoot, now I forgot to ask jim if we should have BBB for zope.testing.testrunner or drop that too...22:18
regebroEh, I'll drop it. :)22:18
Charlie_XI think it's fine at the moment to drop it. People will yell soon enough if they miss it.22:19
srichteryep, drop it :-)22:19
regebroOK, will post headsup on zope.dev about this.22:20
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Charlie_XGreat. Python 3 has its own problems but hopefully fewer warts in total than Python 222:21
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* Charlie_X notes that it is usually the more gifted and experience programmers who are most against change.22:22
* Charlie_X notes that it is also usually the most inexperienced programmers that try out all the new toys22:22
moo---let's be against the change long enough so that it is cheaper to rewrite everything from scratch :)22:22
moo---this way we can feel more productive :)22:23
Charlie_Xhm, what would be the logical consequence of that? A programming language called "Fawlty"?22:24
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regebroExperience means you are used to the warts, and don't see why anybody would want to fix them. :)22:29
Charlie_XThat and the "hideous stick" effect.22:30
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Charlie_XCongratulations Lennart22:34
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davisaglican someone review my zope.interface patch in https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope.interface/+bug/570942 ?23:52
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