IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-09-07

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bhagat    why the Script(Python) fails all the time ?09:42
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betabugbhagat: you check for folders in container, but you create your folder in "base"09:49
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betabugso you always fail on the 2nd round in the loop09:50
bhagatcan I use a break   in the loop?09:52
betabugwhat for? just check for the same place09:52
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CIA-7icemac * r116209 z3c.recipe.paster/ (5 files in 2 dirs):10:17
CIA-7- Fixed tests to run with current package versions and ``distribute``.10:17
CIA-7- Using python's ``doctest`` module instead of deprecated ``zope.testing.doctest``.10:17
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jhamis it possible to put a whole python package into the Extensions directory and call it as an external method? How would one add it as external method in ZMI if it's not a flat directory hierarchy in Extensions dir anymore?13:34
betabugjham: put it into the "Products" directory and call it a "Product"13:35
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betabugand then you get several methods to add it to the ZODB/ZMI13:35
jhambetabug: will check out how to make it a product. thank you for the hint.13:36
betabugno problem13:36
betabugthere are some links on
jhamnice, will read13:37
jhambetaboring looks good as an example13:42
betabugthanx :-)13:42
jhamno, thank you :P13:42
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jhamhmm, betabug, if i'd use a product instead of exernal method, wouldn't it restrict writing data to disk?13:57
betabugin a product you can do whatever you want13:57
jhamokay, just to be sure, thank you.13:58
betabugyou're running as the user who runs the zope process, that's all13:58
betabugno problem :-)13:58
betabug*F* *I* *L* *M* *S*14:05
betabugups, err# :-)14:05
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CIA-7malthe * r116210 z3c.jbot/z3c/jbot/tests/ Use full import.15:19
CIA-7malthe * r116211 z3c.jbot/ (CHANGES.txt z3c/jbot/ Fixed an issue where certain Five templates would not be jbotted under Chameleon.15:19
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Charlie_Xping Theuni115:34
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CIA-7charlie_x * r116212 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/zope-dev/zope-dev-20100831.rst: Minutes of meeting from 31st August 201016:07
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Theuni1Charlie_X: not here. :( i'm sick16:09
* Charlie_X gives Theuni1 a nice, hot cup of tea.16:10
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CIA-7malthe * r116213 z3c.jbot/CHANGES.txt: Preparing release.16:46
CIA-7malthe * r116214 /z3c.jbot/tags/0.6.3: Tagging release.16:46
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j-whi hannosch ccomb16:54
hannoschshall we get started early?16:55
j-wfirst my apologies for no minutes of last meeting16:55
hannoschit sounded like you've been busy :)16:56
j-wI still need to do them - I lost my notes due to a stupid error on my part16:56
j-wI want to do them by reviewing the IRC logs16:56
j-wyes I have16:56
hannoschok. no worries16:57
* hannosch remembers that both of you had some task and I had none :)16:57
j-wi was about to look into the windows failures16:57
hannoschwell, I did manage to move to Berlin and settle in successfully :)16:57
j-wccomb you remeber your task?16:57
fdrakehannosch: Without minutes, it can't be proven, so they are blameless.  :-)16:58
j-wthat sounds like enough things to do already :)16:58
ccombnot really it was related to buildbots, but I didn't progress16:58
j-wfdrake: we still have the irc logs ;)16:58
hannoschok. so we have test failures as the only topic?16:58
ccombactually yes16:59
j-wI thought there were many windows-related failures16:59
j-wbut I was looking at the ztk-dev builders then16:59
j-wthe ztk-1.0 builds seems quite ok, except for python-2.4.416:59
j-wso, we need to try to fix that17:00
j-wand then we can do a release ;)17:00
j-wdid you guys get any feedback after last release?17:00
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hannoschnope. I just updated Zope2 trunk and things work17:01
ccombno negative feedback17:01
j-wsame here17:01
ccombwe're in alpha but it looks like an rc17:01
ccombwe should jump from a2 to rc1 :)17:02
hannoschonce the tests pass, sure17:02
ccombI suppose there should be additional effor to do on the doc17:02
hannoschso how do we go forward with those tests? post a summary to zope-dev and ask for help on specific things?17:03
hannoschlike zope.testing fails on Python 2.4? (if that's the case). more people might be willing to tackle a specific issue17:03
ccombmaybe yes17:04
fdrakej-w: Reading the logs is cheating.  :-)17:04
ccomba mail with a clear list of failures17:04
j-whannosch: agreed, let's do that17:04
ccombare all the packages well documented and is their doc clearly accessible?17:04
hannoschccomb: most definitely not :)17:05
hannoschbut if we'd wait for that, we'd never release anything17:05
ccomblooks like it should be the next effort, then17:05
j-whannosch: ccomb not so sure if the releaseteam should write the docs...17:05
ccombmaybe not write the doc, but inspect their status17:06
j-wtrying to get whatever docs there are easily accessible might be17:06
hannoschI think the docs issue is better handled in the general zope irc meetings by the community. it's not really bound to a ZTK release17:06
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j-wmaybe a topic for the summit even...?17:06
ccombimo, releasing the ztk means we should handle the doc status as well17:07
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j-wccomb you think we should do that before 1.0?17:08
ccombdefinitely yes17:08
j-wok, how can we start on that17:08
ccombotherwise we'll get some negative feedback17:08
fdrakeThe ztk project might be responsible for providing links to individual sets of docs for referenced projects, but not for writing or providing the individual package docs.17:08
fdrakeIf there are ztk-specific docs, that would make sense.17:08
fdrake(For the ztk project to be responsible for writing & maintaining...)17:09
hannoschwe have and
hannoschwe could look at what packages don't have any docs at all there17:09
hannoschbut I'm not keen on looking at the quality of the docs for each package17:09
fdrakeThose look reasonable to me.17:09
ccombok that looks good17:10
j-wI tihnk we have the accessible part covered actually17:10
fdrakeDoc quality may be a reasonable topic when determining status of a package within the ztk, but otherwise should be the problem for the individual packages; it affects more than just the ztk.17:10
j-wI could imagine rendering a list with no docs, instead of leaving them out17:11
j-wbut that's a detail17:11
hannoschI think we have all, as they fall back to the PyPi long description17:11
hannoschevery package has at least that17:11
j-wI do not think we should start reconsidering package status based on doc quality for 1.0 at this point17:11
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hannoschsome are really useless of course like
fdrakeIf the ztk project needs to worry about the doc availability at all, issues can be filed for individual projects.17:12
ccombanother thing to improve :
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ccombthis one was much better :
hannoschccomb: sure. that could use some text that points to a page explaining the purpose of the index17:13 is basically just dir listings indeed17:13
hannoschright, but our equivalent is
j-wccomb: ah, ok, yes that one is much better indeed17:13
j-wcan we somehow refer from to the release overview?17:14
j-wor maybe somehow upload the overview to as part of the release procedure17:14
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ccombj-w: yes17:14
hannoschI wouldn't bother to duplicate the information in two places17:14
hannoschjust add a page pointing to the docs17:15
j-wwould work for me17:15
hannoschpeople that arrive at the index should already now what it is - it's not our "landing page"17:15
hannoschok. I can volunteer to put some page into
hannoschwe can refine it later17:16
j-wI'll continue the windows failures issue17:16
j-wany more points to cover?17:17
hannoschone thing that would be cool is an aggregated changelog17:17
hannoschthe zope 3 kgs release scripts have code for that17:17
hannoschbut I don't know that code very well17:17
j-wcombining the changelogs of the individual packages?17:17
j-wdo you know of an example of that?17:18
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hannoschat least a listing that says: upgraded zope.event from 3.4 to 3.5, from 3.6 to 3.6.2 ...17:18
j-wright, ok17:18
hannoschnext step is links to the release notes of the packages17:18
hannoschand finally you could merge it all into one list17:18
hannoschbut the first step would already help17:19
hannoschright now you have to diff the version.cfg files with the last release17:19
hannoschmight be something we can do at the Zope Summit17:20
j-wok, so we need to write a script for that17:20
j-wis this also something we want before 1.0?17:21
hannoschI'd be fine to do it after 1.0 - just to get it out17:21
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j-wwould it work for you guys to aim for a 1.0rc1 just after the summit?17:22
hannoschsure. as soon as the tests pass, I'd be willing to tag a rc117:22
ccombthere is a similar script in bb17:22
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ccombi've not tried it17:23
hannoschccomb: cool, that looks basically like what we need17:23
ccombseems a bit too hardcoded17:24
hannoschsure. we would want to integrate into our Sphinx docs and have it run automatically17:25
j-wshould such as script be put in the ztk/doc/scripts dir?17:25
j-wok, quite some things to do still for 1.017:26
hannoschok. anything else we can do or talk about now?17:26
j-wplan the next meeting I guess17:27
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hannoschright. ccomb, you aren't at the Zope Summit or the Zope conference?17:27
j-wnext week hannosch and I will be a the summit17:28
ccombwhen where ?17:28
hannoschZope Summit is next Mon/Tue. Conference is the rest of next week17:28
hannoschin Halle at Gocept's office and in Dresden17:28
ccombI would love to come17:29
ccombnot sure it's possible17:29
ccomb13th in spain17:29
hannoschconference info is at
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ccomb14th meeting17:29
ccombbut maybe 15th and 16th17:30
hannoschthe weekend 18/19 is the after conference sprint17:30
ccombwe already have a sprint in tarek's house17:30
hannoschah :)17:31
ccombpackaging stuffs...17:31
j-wI'll only be at the summit17:31
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hannoschj-w: ah, ok17:31
hannoschso let's plan the next meeting for Tuesday 2117:32
hannoschand use mail in the meantime17:32
j-wanyway, can we wrap up?17:32
j-wnext meeting in two weeks then?17:32
hannoschok. all good with me. we can officially close this meeting now :)17:34
j-wthanks, see you next week in Halle!17:34
hannoschso I have 25 minutes left to eat cookies :)17:35
* ccomb 's hand full of chocolate17:35
* Charlie_X coughs17:35
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Charlie_Xhannosch: do you have any idea why plone.recipe.zope2instance would stop playing nicely with Python 2.5?17:37
hannoschCharlie_X: you use a 3.x version? the 4.x line is for Zope 2.12 only and requires 2.617:38
hannoschPython 2.5 was never supported with any Zope2 version17:38
hannoschbut the older version for Zope 2.10 has a good chance of working with 2.517:39
Charlie_XI know that but I have a Debian server running 2.5 that I have been happily working with Zope 2.12 on this year. Just today it broke because of the context manage. And I didn't seem to be able to force it to use p.r.zope2instance < 4.0.317:39
hannoschCharlie_X: hhm. tough luck for running an unsupported Python, I'd say17:40
Charlie_Xmanually changing the Pythonpath in instance did to p.r.zope2instance=4.0.1, however, work.17:40
hannoschthan there's a way to do that in buildout as well17:40
hannoscha versions block with a pin should work17:41
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Charlie_XI tried setting the version in the buildout in the recipe but that didn't seem to have the desired effect.17:42
hannoschjust use a [versions] block17:42
* Charlie_X grumbles: down17:42
Charlie_Xah, I didn't try that.17:43
hannoschplone.recipe.zope2instance = 4.0.117:43
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* hannosch goes out and buys some new cookies for the zope-dev crew :)17:44
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Charlie_Xhannosch: ta, that solved it. I just hadn't realised that declaring the p.r.zope2instance in the [eggs] block would cause it to get the most recent one17:48
hannoschbuildout always gets you the latest by default17:48
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hannoschthat's why you always need to pin everything you use17:48
Charlie_XStill, weird that a patch release should break version compatability (yes, I know about the README)17:48
hannoschPython 2.5 was never supported, it just worked by accident17:49
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hannoschthere's code in Zope 2 as well as Plone that requires Python 2.617:49
Charlie_XI already have one server running "lenny/testing" for Python 2.6 support but this other one is a bit more tricky to move.17:49
Charlie_XNot experienced any problems since March but there is a pretty minimalist CMF site. Will bump the server soon enough.17:50
* Charlie_X kicks Debian17:50
hannoschI just told our hosting provider to install Python 2.6 on Lenny and they figured it out :)17:51
Charlie_XThe thing I don't like is they make it difficult to install different versions at once.17:53
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* Charlie_X looks around18:02
Charlie_XAnyone here for the Zope Dev meeting?18:02
hannoschI'd be here if there's an agenda18:02
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Charlie_XThere isn't one. Theuni's ill and I didn't get around to posting an invitation.18:04
hannoschhhm. ok. fewer meetings are good :)18:04
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do3ccso we are done?18:05
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Charlie_Xdo3cc: hi, depends on whether you have anything you wish to talk about.18:05
hannoschwe are here to wish Theuni1 to get better, that's all18:05
do3ccyeah me too18:06
Charlie_XThe regular timeslot is still a good thing.18:06
do3cchopefully hes back to good at his own party18:06
* Charlie_X realises he's going to be spending a week in the "zone".18:06
do3ccyeah, thats a topic18:06
do3cchow to survive in the zone18:07
Charlie_XWonder if I can get enough Ost-Marks18:07
MatthewWilkesCharlie_X: The Death Zone?18:07
hannoschCharlie_X: they won't let you out again, you know ;)18:07
Charlie_Xhannosch: I'm not sure about that. It would mean they'd have to keep listening to my ramblings!18:07
Charlie_XMatthewWilkes: it's "old" slang for East Germany.18:08
do3cccre-160 explains how you can try to get out18:08
MatthewWilkesCharlie_X: Indeed, reminded me of the five doctors Dr Who episode though18:08
Charlie_Xdo3cc: any news on ZODB and Python 2.7?18:08
hannoschMatthewWilkes: from "the russian zone", when Germany was divided into four zones18:08
do3ccCharlie_X: I am going to add ZODB testrunners during next weekend18:09
Charlie_XMatthewWilkes: ooh, that's going back: Hartnell, Troughton, Pertwee, Baker and Davison?18:09
srichterCharlie_X: I could lend you some east marks :-)18:09
do3cctogether with an extension for sphinx to display the latest test results inline18:09
Charlie_Xdo3cc: great stuff18:09
do3ccpraise me after I did it ;-)18:09
Charlie_Xsrichter: I've still got a shiny (well actually not so shiny) 10 Mark note. How many do I get for that?18:10
srichterCharlie_X: have you recently held some of that money in your hands and wondered how money could ever be that light18:10
MatthewWilkesCharlie_X: Tom Baker wasn't really in it too much, he was just cut in from old episodes18:10
Charlie_Xsrichter: I've never held it. The first time I came to Germany was after monetary union.18:11
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Charlie_XWho's going to be at the summit next week?18:11
* do3cc 18:11
* Charlie_X has a pile of US dollars that look just like monopoly money.18:11
srichterCharlie_X: ah I see18:11
Charlie_Xoff-topic - has anyone else got problems with initd.org18:12
hannoschCharlie_X: the list is here
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do3ccCharlie_X: didnt you want to ask the mailing list about removal rules for ztk?18:13
do3ccI brought popcorn and stuff, its getting old already18:13
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hannoschwe did a first round of deprecation in the ZTK. that will lead to removal in ZTK 1.118:14
do3cchannosch: we were discussing here about general rules, to avoid unmaintained software18:15
hannoschand once BB and Grok start using less of, we'll deprecate more18:15
Charlie_Xdo3cc: did I? Oh yes, I did. I thought I might get away with sticking it in the minutes where nobody would read it.18:15
Charlie_Xhannosch: I noticed18:15
do3ccCharlie_X: Its ok, I think the summit is better place anyway18:15
do3ccppl flame less in person18:15
Charlie_XI suggest we have a policy for *inclusion* first and then start gardening.18:15
hannoschdo3cc: I'm not aware of anything particular unmaintained inside the ZTK. there's tons of unmaintained stuff in the SVN repo of course18:15
do3ccHeh, Charlie_X you brought up the removal parts last week ;-)18:16
hannoschour current definition is "all packages which are used by at least two of the frameworks"18:16
Charlie_Xdo3cc it was in the agenda. Talking about removal first is about to be contentious.18:16
do3cchannosch: that sounds good18:16
hannoschthat's pretty clear on both the deprecation and inclusion side18:17
do3ccthat might actually be enough for now18:17
hannoschthe gray area is what "used" means :)18:17
do3ccits in the kgs18:17
Charlie_XI think it's a bit weak, to be honest.18:17
do3ccCharlie_X: what do you fear?18:18
hannoschit's pretty conservative. you can only get into the ZTK once two other communities have adopted your package18:18
hannoschnot much room for "advertising" and such18:19
Charlie_XThere is no sense of responsibility or quality.18:20
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Charlie_XWhich we touched on and are the bugbears of open source.18:20
fdrakehannosch: Are you suggesting to make it easier to add packages to the ZTK?18:20
do3ccquality can be enforced by different means than forcing exclusion18:20
fdrakeSeems unwarranted, really.18:20
Charlie_Xdo3cc: it is not supposed to be used as a threat.18:20
hannoschfdrake: we might want to include packages that are used by many people but aren't part of the frameworks. z3c.form comes to mind18:21
hannoschI'm not really sure about that myself18:21
do3ccand isn't the quality issue something the frameworks might tackle by themselves?18:21
Charlie_Xdo3cc: frameworks don't tackle anything on their own.18:21
fdrakehannosch: Ah, perhaps.18:21
fdrakePerhaps "adopted by the communities of at least two frameworks" would be an acceptable formulation.18:22
fdrakeThat's pretty vague, which is probably desirable.18:22
do3ccCharlie_X: maybe as in activly looking for replacement though18:22
do3ccso if people stop using it, it gets kicked out of the ztk too18:23
hannoschfdrake: right. the release team so far deferred the issue for ZTK 1.1. for 1.0 we stay conservative18:23
fdrakeSounds good.18:23
Charlie_Xdo3cc: How do you know when people stop using it?18:23
do3ccchecking their latest kgs regulary18:24
do3ccEven better, ask them18:24
do3ccyou could like, vote18:24
Charlie_Xdo3cc: I find that all a bit vague.18:25
Charlie_XI think we've collected lots of cruft like that.18:25
hannoschCharlie_X: do you have an example of cruft?18:25
do3ccwhat results do you expect if you kick a package out of ztk that is used by two or more frameworks?18:26
Charlie_XIn general? or in the ZTK in particular?18:26
hannoschCharlie_X: in the ZTK18:26
Charlie_XProbably not a very good one because I actually use it myself but zope.formlib18:28
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Charlie_Xdo3cc: I guess, I'm looking at the general principles for inclusion, whether in the ZTK or one of the frameworks.18:29
hannoschCharlie_X: that's still used by BB and Grok18:29
hannoschCharlie_X: you need to convince them to drop it18:29
Charlie_Xhannosch: and CMF and it's not bad but it's not getting much love.18:29
hannoschCharlie_X: sure. Zope 2 has dropped it, Plone is dropping it soon18:30
Charlie_Xhannosch: yes, but that's anecdotal.18:31
hannoschCharlie_X: sure. but the rules for inclusion are very different in the three frameworks. not much you can harmonize there18:31
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do3ccI think it all depends, what role ztk has now and wants to have in the future. If you start dropping packages in wide use, the ztk starts putting a bit of pressure onto its consumers18:32
hannoschhhm. 30 minutes of casual talk are over :)18:32
Charlie_XYes, time to stop talking and pick up your pencils.18:33
hannoschdo3cc: no. if the ztk starts dropping packages in wide use it becomes irrelevant and will be ignored :)18:33
do3ccso the inclusion exclusion rules makes sense right now18:34
Charlie_Xhannosch: I think it might have more to do with the burden of maintenance.18:34
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hannoschthe value proposition of the ZTK is already weak. the potential benefit of shared maintenance is not very much in practice18:34
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CIA-7jim * r116215 ZODB/src/ (ZODB/ CHANGES.txt ZODB/tests/ (log message trimmed)21:49
CIA-7Bug fixed21:49
CIA-7- Database connections didn't invalidate cache entries when conflict21:49
CIA-7errors were raised in response to checkCurrentSerialInTransaction21:49
CIA-7errors. Normally, this shouldn't be a problem, since there should be21:49
CIA-7pending invalidations for these oids which will cause the object to21:49
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