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CIA-83 | janwijbrand * r121053 grok/ (3 files in 3 dirs): add value index component | 14:22 |
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betabug | "Chris Withers: the indominable Zope permatroll" hahahaha! | 16:46 |
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kosh | betabug: so how is your life going? | 17:10 |
betabug | hmmmm, good question | 17:10 |
betabug | quite fine, I'd say | 17:11 |
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kosh | did you ever play with my blob patch? | 17:18 |
betabug | nope, sorry | 17:19 |
kosh | I actually updated the code with a better conversion script that you can run from the command line :) | 17:19 |
* kosh sets betabug on fire | 17:19 | |
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betabug | currently trying to fix unicode/utf-8 stuff on 2 large apps, to get them into the 2.10+ world | 17:19 |
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betabug | kosh: well, if you keep updating the stuff, I keep delaying my tests ;-) | 17:19 |
kosh | I only added a script that can be run from zopectl instead of putting a python script inside the zodb | 17:20 |
kosh | it prevents timeout issues that way | 17:20 |
kosh | the actual code has not changed | 17:20 |
betabug | yeah, and probably nicer to run when you have ZEO anyway | 17:20 |
kosh | yup | 17:20 |
kosh | yeah I will have to convert stuff to unicode later also, will be an insane ammount of work | 17:21 |
betabug | hmm, dunno, acceptable so far | 17:21 |
kosh | and I will just have to tell the cjk people they can't use their own character sets anymore | 17:21 |
betabug | ... but then I haven't really gotten in the bug minefields yet :-) | 17:21 |
kosh | so many strings to convert in so many places | 17:21 |
betabug | kosh: dunno, maybe they can | 17:21 |
betabug | I have 1 method that does the actual converting | 17:22 |
kosh | no I have to say no more shift-jis for instance | 17:22 |
betabug | if you can centralize stuff there, maybe you can switch stuff around | 17:22 |
betabug | I don't see a reason why not | 17:22 |
kosh | because some translators are starting to use characters that don't exist in shift-jis and others are using characters that apparently are not exactly the same character (same meaning though) in shift-jis as utf-8 | 17:22 |
kosh | and the customer wants to do more combining of languages on a page | 17:22 |
betabug | right | 17:22 |
kosh | so I need an encoding that can handle chinese and japanese for instance | 17:23 |
kosh | better to just decree utf-8 and be done with it | 17:23 |
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betabug | ok then :-) | 17:29 |
betabug | utf-8 is fine with me so far | 17:29 |
kosh | well what I want to do is make everything unicode and see if I can get zope to encode to a chosen encoding as a last step on publishing | 17:30 |
betabug | hmmm, I think that should be possible | 17:31 |
betabug | as "encode to a default encoding as a last step" is a given | 17:31 |
betabug | so there sure is a choice too | 17:31 |
kosh | so I would set zope to utf-8 and then make sure my stuff was pure unicode the entire way through | 17:32 |
kosh | that way if I did need it to be utf-16 instead for instance that could be done | 17:32 |
betabug | I think so, yes | 17:33 |
betabug | well, as for workload, so far it's just a bunch of: | 17:38 |
betabug | - self.title = title | 17:38 |
betabug | + self.title = u(title) | 17:38 |
betabug | and going through the code | 17:38 |
betabug | changing all the input parameters, REQUEST.form.get(), getattr() calls | 17:38 |
betabug | and getattr() is only because there will be still a db full of utf-8 strings | 17:39 |
betabug | I'll probably write a blog post about this approach tomorrow | 17:39 |
betabug | (and another one, once all hell breaks loose in tests) | 17:39 |
kosh | mine will end up being more complex then that | 17:40 |
kosh | I will have the system go through the db and convert all existing data to unicode for instance | 17:40 |
betabug | yeah, I thought about doing that | 17:41 |
kosh | use character detection when putting data into the system | 17:41 |
betabug | but it's a big DB | 17:41 |
kosh | because the browser will NOT tell you how it encoded the data that is submitted in a form | 17:41 |
kosh | and it won't necessarily encode it in the same encoding as the page is sent | 17:41 |
betabug | it's all utf-8 here | 17:41 |
kosh | how do you know that is what it is when someone hits submit on a page to submit a form? | 17:41 |
betabug | if someone screws with that, well it's their problem | 17:41 |
kosh | no I mean someones web browser | 17:42 |
betabug | the page is set as utf-8, all browsers I've seen so far submit forms with that | 17:42 |
betabug | if they change the encoding, well, tough luck | 17:42 |
kosh | if someone is using IE on windows then it submits with whatever the current windows character set is | 17:42 |
kosh | so it will submit as shift-jis in japan most of the time for instance | 17:42 |
betabug | hmm, interesting | 17:42 |
betabug | doesn't work with Greek character sets like that | 17:43 |
betabug | or we would have lots of trouble here | 17:43 |
kosh | just like if a page is set as iso-8859-1 it won't matter because english windows IE will submit cp-1252 | 17:43 |
betabug | but maybe on windows they use utf-8.el_EL really | 17:43 |
kosh | it changes depending on the exact version of windows | 17:44 |
betabug | aha | 17:44 |
betabug | but then, you can't know the difference between is-8859-1 and cp-1252 really, can't you? | 17:44 |
kosh | you can use the chardet module to get it right most of the time | 17:45 |
betabug | hmmm, dunno | 17:45 |
kosh | if you are only dealing with greek as a language and only modern browsers and only modern versions of windows your solution might work | 17:45 |
betabug | yeah, but I guess the few times when it really matters, it might not get it | 17:45 |
kosh | if that is not true you are going to run into nasty problems | 17:45 |
betabug | well, it's a mix of greek + english + rarely some other european languages | 17:45 |
betabug | no asian stuff so far | 17:46 |
kosh | asian is pretty much where it falls apart | 17:46 |
betabug | I can imagine | 17:46 |
kosh | well utf-8, iso-8859-1, iso-8859-15 and a bunch of other character sets all exactly match on their lower characters which just happens to be what european languages use | 17:47 |
betabug | yupp | 17:47 |
kosh | so in most cases if you guess wrong on the character encoding actually used it is still correct in the end | 17:47 |
betabug | yeah, but the differences are going to be in weird spots | 17:49 |
TheJester | holy crap people | 17:50 |
betabug | hey TheJester | 17:50 |
kosh | greetings lifeform | 17:50 |
TheJester | hey beta, kosh | 17:50 |
TheJester | how's life amongst the bots d8) | 17:50 |
betabug | so, what's happening? | 17:50 |
kosh | doing fine here | 17:50 |
betabug | amongst the bots and the occasional lost newbie | 17:51 |
betabug | TheJester: I played around with Pyramid over the last few days | 17:51 |
TheJester | Was it fun? | 17:52 |
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betabug | yeah, it's a nice thing and well documented | 17:52 |
betabug | probably gotta build something for fun | 17:53 |
betabug | s/gotta/gonna/ | 17:53 |
TheJester | probably get more people with the better name d8) | 17:53 |
betabug | haha, also with the merger news going around | 17:54 |
betabug | well, I was going to play with repoze.bfg "some day" | 17:54 |
kosh | I look at those other projects sometimes | 17:56 |
kosh | however I really like the security part of zope, access controls on methods, attributes etc | 17:56 |
betabug | well, zope gets a feel of being very "complete" after looking around | 17:56 |
betabug | but I still like to look around :-) | 17:57 |
kosh | I like what they did with the mailhost in zope so you can set it to send emails only of no other errors happen in the transaction | 17:57 |
kosh | I want to use that same code if I can to work with salesforce later | 17:57 |
kosh | so that data only gets synced to salesforce if no errors happened in the rest of the transaction | 17:58 |
kosh | it just seems that zope has so much infrastructure to make it easy to get something right | 17:58 |
TheJester | That's pretty easy to setup transaction wise | 17:58 |
kosh | I figured it would be | 17:58 |
TheJester | I set up something similar to spawn a thread to do "some other work" | 17:58 |
kosh | I was talking to someone that was doing some django work recently and he said that would be a serious bitch to do that with django but he wanted to figure out a way to do it since it sounded so useful to him | 17:59 |
kosh | it just seems that a lot of things that are very very hard in other frameworks are kind of built in for zope | 18:00 |
TheJester | I don't know why Zope gets the bad rap it gets about being too big or too harrd | 18:00 |
kosh | but this would ensure that my system and salesforce would remain completely insync on a transaction for transaction basis | 18:01 |
TheJester | Then I see people embedding HTML inside python... | 18:01 |
betabug | well, docs on pyramid make it quite easy to get started | 18:02 |
kosh | it just seems when I look at other projects they are always missing a few things that I use often that would be a pain in the neck to write myself and probably would not get them 100% right | 18:03 |
kosh | betabug: that is what I find for most of the projects, they are very easy to get started and then that is where it ends | 18:03 |
betabug | haha, it's always like that | 18:03 |
kosh | betabug: you are started and now looking at having to get some very complex functionality working with no real support system for it, the simple systems just seem to be simple and stop | 18:03 |
betabug | anyway, packing up here, cya | 18:05 |
kosh | the biggest issue I see is that most systems put no thought into security | 18:06 |
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kosh | it seems like most other systems have more security exploits in a week then zope does in a year, some have more in a day | 18:07 |
kosh | simple things in zope like every transaction runs as the user for that transactions seems like it is such a pain in the neck for a relational db | 18:10 |
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mcdonc_ | kosh: pyramid is very zopey so it has declarative security, 1-request-1-transaction, mail-on-txn-commit, etc... not that you'll ever use anything but zope, just sayin | 18:35 |
mcdonc_ | TheJester: ahoy | 18:35 |
TheJester | Hi McD | 18:35 |
mcdonc_ | old home day in #zope | 18:36 |
kosh | mcdonc_: so what are the good and bad points compared to zope then? | 18:36 |
TheJester | Normally it's just bots fighting d8) | 18:36 |
kosh | mcdonc_: but at least it sounds like it has a lot more features I use compared to other systems | 18:37 |
mcdonc_ | kosh: no zmi, less featureful traversal, no ttw code | 18:37 |
kosh | ah those I use also | 18:38 |
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mcdonc_ | yes, i know you love you some zope and will never use anything else, was just puttin it out there mostly for benefit of others | 18:39 |
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kosh | my problem is not moving to something else, it is something else not having features I use regularly | 18:40 |
kosh | I could deal with the zmi | 18:41 |
kosh | and ttw code could be dealt with if I had a good way to give people that don't understand security very well the ability to write little scripts and let the system take care of security | 18:41 |
kosh | if they write external methods their code would be insecure and it also has the problem of requiring someone to be correct all the time | 18:41 |
kosh | the restricted environment in ttw code has a lot of security advantages and is a large reason of why zope stands up so well to attacks | 18:42 |
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sm | morning zopistas | 18:48 |
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TheJester | sm | 18:48 |
sm | kosh: do you have a lot of users writing dtml/pythonscripts ? | 18:49 |
kosh | some at least, not a lot | 18:49 |
kosh | but those that do write them write a fair number of them | 18:49 |
sm | I used to think that zope feature would be quite widely used | 18:50 |
kosh | I know we use it in a major way | 18:50 |
kosh | I even write a fair number of them when something does not need to go on many servers | 18:50 |
kosh | it is just simpler and safer | 18:50 |
kosh | with external methods/product code you have to be a lot more defensive in your coding | 18:51 |
mcdonc_ | hey sm | 18:51 |
mcdonc_ | we haven't had a job where scripting delegation to untrusted users was important in many many years | 18:52 |
mcdonc_ | although i'm sure it's still useful to you, it's a huge amount of overhead for us | 18:53 |
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sm | mcdonc_: much the same here. I don't remember any of my clients or coworkers getting productive with scripting. I might still use it rarely myself for some quick website hack | 18:58 |
sm | I still think it (sandboxed scripting) is a pretty cool feature and can't think of another framework providing it | 18:58 |
sm | other than browser javascript I guess | 18:59 |
mcdonc_ | yeah it's what dragged me into zope in the first place | 18:59 |
kosh | it is not that the person is untrusted | 18:59 |
mcdonc_ | but the machinery and sacrifices required for it are outweighing its usefulness by a large margin at this point | 19:00 |
mcdonc_ | (for me) | 19:00 |
kosh | it is that expecting them to write the code with no errors and not creating more security problems is a lot to ask | 19:00 |
TresEquis | mcdonc_, we do have a client where scripting via the ZMI is important | 19:01 |
TresEquis | although the only people who do it are me and their most-trusted developer ;) | 19:01 |
TresEquis | restart / reload overhead on their production machines would be fatal | 19:01 |
mcdonc_ | "scripting delegation to untrusted users" is a little different than that tho right | 19:02 |
TresEquis | sure | 19:02 |
TresEquis | I'm not arguing for letting untrusted users even use the CMS, much less script it ;) | 19:02 |
mcdonc_ | hehe | 19:03 |
kosh | the point is that expecting someone to make no security mistakes all the time is just inviting failure, people are just not that good | 19:03 |
mcdonc_ | well that's the definition of untrusted really | 19:03 |
mcdonc_ | (although "untrusted" is maybe an unkind-sounding way to say it) | 19:04 |
kosh | the restricted security environment in ttw code is very useful | 19:04 |
kosh | mcdonc_: even your own code would be untrusted sometimes, being able to use a restricted environment for code that should not be touching any outside stuff anyways is a lot safer | 19:05 |
TheJester | Being able to drop and reload Products properly / safely without a restart would be a great boon d8) | 19:06 |
mcdonc_ | given the tradeoff that ttw code cannot really be tested it's a tradeoff.... often known-to-work is more important | 19:06 |
kosh | ttw code is useful for that also, no restarts to change code | 19:07 |
mcdonc_ | (at least known-to-work is more important to me on 99 jobs out of 100) | 19:07 |
mcdonc_ | anyway, we both have what we want, so no point in arguing about it | 19:07 |
kosh | well it should be possible to cover both and do it better | 19:08 |
kosh | like if we could have a way to declare a function as running in a protected execution environment | 19:09 |
kosh | then you could edit on the filesystem, you could test on the filesystem and still run in restricted execution | 19:09 |
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TheJester | Well you can do that by writing the code to disk inside Python Scripts d8) | 19:09 |
TresEquis | "oh, you want the *fuzzy* handcuffs!" :) | 19:09 |
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TheJester | Dear Tres, I would like to sign up to your newsletter d8) | 19:10 |
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kosh | yeah the best woudl be reload on change, edit on filesystem and through the zmi, keep the restricted security, make it easier to test | 19:12 |
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TresEquis | kosh, as TheJester points out, that is exactly the pattern for CMF's FSPythonScripts | 19:26 |
TresEquis | assuming you are running in debug mode | 19:26 |
kosh | hmm I did not see him point that out | 19:27 |
CIA-83 | faassen * r121054 martian/bootstrap.py: Newer bootstrap. | 19:27 |
CIA-83 | faassen * r121055 martian/src/martian/tests/test_all.py: Use standard library doctest. | 19:27 |
kosh | of course I would also have to run in debug mode and also install CMF that does not seem great | 19:27 |
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TheJester | Those are coding problems d8) | 19:30 |
sm | don't need CMF either | 19:32 |
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kosh | it would be nice to change the default python script that is part of zope to do that though | 19:37 |
TheJester | Monkey Patch d8) | 19:38 |
kosh | the most recent thing I have worked on for my machines is that OFS.Image and File use blobs instead of strings/pdata | 19:38 |
kosh | good idea | 19:38 |
kosh | I have a monkey patch for the blob one | 19:38 |
TheJester | I did that with ZSQL so you can edit them even with no connector available | 19:38 |
kosh | https://github.com/Immudzen/MonkeyOFSImageFile | 19:38 |
kosh | blobs by default made a huge difference | 19:38 |
kosh | I had asked on the zope list if anyone was interested, only two people replied and one of them told me I need to make it a svn patch for anyone to look at it | 19:39 |
TheJester | heh | 19:39 |
kosh | so I did that work and sent it to them and never heard about it again | 19:39 |
TheJester | I saw the posting, but, I didn't need it | 19:39 |
kosh | I found it made a truly massive difference | 19:39 |
TheJester | I store my images on the FS and use a sendfile monkey patch to serve them d8) | 19:40 |
kosh | I needed a way that customers could still upload files and the system would just transparently put them on the filesystem | 19:41 |
kosh | and my works retroactively on all existing files without any interface changes | 19:41 |
kosh | so I really liked it | 19:41 |
kosh | one on site that was 7GB after this patch it went to 6.8GB in blobs and .2G in Data.fs and it runs a LOT faster | 19:41 |
TheJester | yeah small ZODBs make a huge difference | 19:42 |
kosh | well also blobs are not cached and can be streamed more efficiently | 19:42 |
kosh | I did try to use your sendfile solution with the blobs but I ran into problems trying to figure out how to make that work right | 19:42 |
kosh | but the existing way I stream already is currently working well enough and about 5x faster then default zodb streaming | 19:42 |
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TheJester | I should have added resume support to it too | 19:44 |
kosh | mine does handle that | 19:44 |
TheJester | but I didn't really need that at the time | 19:44 |
TheJester | Not that it's really any more difficult | 19:44 |
TheJester | I had a modded Apaache module too that worked really nicely if your Apache was not on the same host, but, shared a FS with Zope | 19:45 |
TheJester | Then Apache would do the heavy lifting instead | 19:45 |
kosh | I dropped apache | 19:46 |
kosh | I moved to nginx | 19:46 |
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kosh | I originally had 4 zope servers in front of 1 zeo | 19:46 |
pjfd | y | 19:47 |
kosh | and with apache its load balancer would sometimes hand out the wrong content | 19:47 |
kosh | I could verify it was not in the zope end | 19:47 |
TheJester | Yeah I've seen that | 19:47 |
kosh | that bug had been opened and closed in apache about 10 times | 19:47 |
kosh | they keep claiming to fix it and it keeps coming back | 19:47 |
TheJester | And cache corruption is rife | 19:47 |
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kosh | with nginx I have NEVER seen that happen and nginx is also much simpler to make work | 19:47 |
kosh | so I just got tired of dealing with apache and dumped it | 19:48 |
TheJester | fair enough | 19:49 |
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* sm takes note and resolves again to try to kick apache | 19:54 | |
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kosh | sm: it is worth it, nginx is sure nicer | 20:12 |
kosh | nginx made load balancing zope trivially easy, it makes virtual hosting much simpler | 20:21 |
CIA-83 | tseaver * r121056 /zope.component/branches/tseaver-queryAdapterFactory: Add 'queryAdapterFactory' to enable zero-registration patterns. | 20:23 |
CIA-83 | tseaver * r121057 /zope.interface/branches/tseaver-queryAdapterFactory: Add 'queryAdapterFactory' to enable zero-registration patterns. | 20:23 |
CIA-83 | tseaver * r121058 /zope.interface/branches/tseaver-queryAdapterFactory: 'lookup' already gets us what we need. | 20:23 |
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planetzopebot | Turtle sprint, day 1 (Reinout van Rees' weblog) http://reinout.vanrees.org/weblog/2011/03/21/turtle_day1.html | 21:15 |
planetzopebot | Plone Gets Attention at Pycon 2011 in Atlanta (Plone News) http://plone.org/news/pycon2011 | 21:15 |
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TresEquis | kosh, I don't remember seeing your OFS.Image stuff -- which list did you notify, and when (so I can go refresh my memory) | 21:42 |
kosh | zope list | 21:42 |
TresEquis | -dev or the users? | 21:42 |
kosh | regular zope list | 21:43 |
kosh | Monkey patch for BLOB support in OFS.Image Images and Files that was the subject | 21:44 |
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kosh | it is a monkey patch that makes it so that OFS.Image Images and Files saves only blobs but it will still read the older string and pdata structures | 21:48 |
kosh | and there is a nice script you can run to convert all existing Images and Files to use blobs | 21:48 |
CIA-83 | menesis * r121059 zope.app.server/src/zope/app/server/ (DEPENDENCIES.cfg zope.app.server-configure.zcml SETUP.cfg): removed obsolete build infrastructure files. | 21:48 |
kosh | there is even a svn patch against 2.13 sitting in the git repository | 21:51 |
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TresEquis | kosh, I will look into it | 22:02 |
kosh | cool | 22:03 |
kosh | as a monkeypatch it works fine, what I would like eventually to do is get it into zope directly, would just have to have it detect if blob support is enabled | 22:03 |
kosh | it makes such a large difference in speed and memory usage it would be useful by default | 22:03 |
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TresEquis | kosh, you will need to lose the GPL for me to land it, though | 22:05 |
kosh | yeah that I can do | 22:06 |
kosh | what license should it be under? | 22:06 |
TresEquis | ZPL 2.1 | 22:06 |
TresEquis | http://www.zope.org/Resources/License/ | 22:07 |
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kosh | for some reason I can't get that page to load for me right now | 22:07 |
* kosh kicks it a few times | 22:07 | |
kosh | hmm zope.org won't even load for me right now | 22:09 |
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TresEquis | just loaded for me | 22:09 |
kosh | sitll not loading for me but I just found a copy of the ZPL 2.1 somewhere else, going to change it in a moment | 22:10 |
kosh | okay license changed | 22:11 |
kosh | however it does need some more work before it can go into the zope core I think | 22:11 |
kosh | because it currently doesn't check if blobs work before it tries to use blobs, which is probably the biggest problem | 22:12 |
kosh | I suppose it is always possible also that someone might have blobs turned on but not want blobs created, darned if I know why though | 22:12 |
kosh | it works for reading it is just that for writing it just tries to make a blob and does not check if blobs work or if it needs to fall back to pdata or string structures instead | 22:13 |
TresEquis | I created a LP issue for your patch: https://bugs.launchpad.net/zope2/+bug/739692 | 22:13 |
kosh | but if you have any suggestions on how to make the patch better I can fix those things | 22:13 |
_mup_ | Bug #739692: Add blob support to OFS.Image.Image and OFS.Image.File <Zope 2:Confirmed for tseaver> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/739692 > | 22:13 |
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TresEquis | the hard part is going to be writing the tests (as usual) | 22:14 |
TresEquis | maybe I can trick hannosch into doing it :) | 22:14 |
kosh | not even sure where to start with that, probably have to find out where tests are written for other things in OFS.Image | 22:14 |
TresEquis | should be OFS/tests/test_Image.py, or similar | 22:17 |
TresEquis | but it's called 'testFileAndImage.py' instead | 22:18 |
davisagli | also look at witsch's test setup in plone.app.blob, might help with getting a test db with blob support | 22:20 |
davisagli | (though probably needs some divorcing from Plone test setup infrastructure) | 22:20 |
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davisagli | I suppose ZODB itself must have something along those lines too | 22:21 |
kosh | yeah so far I don't have much of an idea on where to start but can work on it | 22:22 |
kosh | I probably also have to put back in the stuff for storing pdata/strings in the case where blobs are not currently supported | 22:23 |
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CIA-83 | menesis * r121059 zope.app.server/src/zope/app/server/ (DEPENDENCIES.cfg zope.app.server-configure.zcml SETUP.cfg): removed obsolete build infrastructure files. | 22:35 |
CIA-83 | janjaapdriessen * r121060 groktoolkit/ (buildout.cfg grok.cfg): Move versions from buildout.cfg to grok.cfg in order to be able to pick up the changes from grokcore.view trunk. | 22:35 |
CIA-83 | tseaver tseaver-queryAdapterFactory * r121061 zope.component/src/zope/component/_api.py: Remove unused imports. | 22:35 |
CIA-83 | tseaver tseaver-queryAdapterFactory * r121062 zope.component/src/zope/component/ (6 files): | 22:35 |
CIA-83 | Add 'queryAdapterFactory' and 'queryMultiAdapterFactory' APIs. | 22:35 |
CIA-83 | These functions allow looking up the uncalled factory for an adapter. | 22:35 |
CIA-83 | hannosch 2.12 * r121063 Zope/ (doc/CHANGES.rst versions.cfg): Attempt to fix buildbot test failures in python-gettext | 22:35 |
CIA-83 | erico_andrei * r121064 z3c.form/src/z3c/form/locales/ (pt_BR pt_BR/LC_MESSAGES/z3c.form.po pt_BR/LC_MESSAGES): Adding Brazilian Portuguese translation | 22:35 |
CIA-83 | erico_andrei * r121065 z3c.form/CHANGES.txt: Updates documentation, adding pt_BR translation | 22:35 |
CIA-83 | erico_andrei * r121066 plone.z3cform/ (4 files in 4 dirs): Adding Brazilian Portuguese translations. Thanks to davilima6 | 22:35 |
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