IRC log of #zope for Thursday, 2011-04-07

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koshbetabug: you awake?02:47
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betabugkosh: now I am :-)10:00
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koshbetabug: ah cool I have a new product10:02
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betabugha! fun :-)10:02
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koshvery very simple it generates unique urls with VERY long cache times for any object you hand it10:02
betabughmmm, what?10:03
betabugah, so the URL changes if the object changes?10:03
koshso lets say you have an object called css   you would create the url to it with   thiscacheobject.version_absolute_url_path(   and it will generate  a url like   thiscacheobject/ver_timestamp/path/to/your/css10:03
koshyeah it is based off of bobobase_modification_time10:03
koshit can't detect changes to other objects that would cause the first one to change but that was not a problem I had to deal with for my usage at least10:04
betabugso you set the cache time really high, but when the object changes you still get the new version right away10:04
koshbut this makes is so that my js files, css files, images files etc all can have something like a 30 year cache time but still refresh instantly when changed10:04
betabugyeah, got it now10:05
koshI just built this functionality into my regular product but I made this as a seperate product to work with any zope object10:05
betabugnice stuff10:05
betabugyeah, that's a good idea10:05
koshone a test site in yslow I reduced the lookups needed to draw a page from 85 to 510:05
koshit was very easy to do, I still need to do some more testing with it for virtual hosts etc but the product is tiny10:06
koshall the work is in 2 methods10:06
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betabugyeah, I can see that... d/l now10:07
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betabugdu -sh * 0BCacheVersionURL.py10:09
betabug4.0KREADME 0B__init__.py10:09
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betabugsomething is wrong with that download10:09
koshhmm let me check10:09
betabugfiles are empty10:09
koshheh oops I need to try to commit that again10:09
koshso hard to remember the git commands10:10
koshnow it is all there10:11
betabugI don't have git on this machine... I thought I had, but it's not here10:11
betabugok, let me d/l again10:11
betabugkosh: yeah, now it's there10:12
koshI added those files from the cli, normally I have kdevelop do it for me :)10:13
betabugkosh: looks very nice10:17
betabugonly thing I saw is the fixed date of 2030.... you'll have to update that in 10 years or so :-)10:17
koshyeah I should fix that at some point10:18
koshjust not high priority :)10:18
betabugand people will complain how your product is "unmaintained" HAHAHAHAHAHA10:18
koshI figure by 2030 nobody will be using that anymore and someone can fix it10:18
betabugdon't count on it10:18
betabugso much old software still runs after so many years10:18
koshyeah I should fix it to just do the current year + 20 or something like that10:19
betabugno, leave it like that - it's one less computation10:20
koshthere is that, right now it does very little in the way of computation10:21
koshbut that means I only have about 18 years to update it ;)10:22
betabugyou should make a project plan or something, with a gant chart and a timeline10:23
koshit just seems like such a simple way to solve a problem10:23
koshunique urls for the resources so they cache and expire nicely10:24
betabugyeah, it's been done before10:24
betabugbut not as simple I guess10:24
koshah I had seen a suggestion by google to do something like that and they specifically said not to do stuff   like   foo/bar?ver=123123110:24
koshsince some browers under some situations won't cache that10:25
koshso I figured I could just put the version number into the url easily and just use bobo_traverse to strip it10:25
betabugyes, it's not elegant10:25
koshand since the time does not matter the bobo traverse to strip that element is very simple10:25
koshso I don't have to actually verify the number10:26
koshso far I have not thought of any problems with this but maybe you could think of some issues10:28
CIA-83icemac * r121307 zc.recipe.macro/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Conform to repository policy.10:29
CIA-83icemac * r121308 zc.recipe.rhrc/ ( README.txt): Added not declared, but needed test dependency on `zope.testing`.10:29
CIA-83icemac * r121309 zc.recipe.rhrc/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Conform to repository policy.10:29
CIA-83icemac * r121310 zc.recipe.wrapper/ (LICENSE.txt COPYRIGHT.txt Conform to repository policy.10:29
CIA-83icemac * r121311 zc.recipe.testrunner/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Conform to repository policy.10:29
CIA-83icemac 1.0 * r121312 zc.recipe.testrunner/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Conform to repository policy.10:29
CIA-83adamg * r121313 (src/keas/build/ CHANGES.txt src/keas/build/ Fix RawConfigParser usage, it destroys options values by making them all lowercase.10:29
CIA-83adamg * r121314 (CHANGES.txt Preparing release 0.2.110:29
CIA-83adamg * r121315 / Tagging 0.2.110:29
CIA-83adamg * r121316 (CHANGES.txt Back to development: 0.2.210:29
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betabugI think it's fine10:39
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CIA-83ctheune python-3-2 * r121317 zc.buildout/ (5 files in 3 dirs): Snapshot: make 'pythonX.Y' work for 2.4, 2.5, 2.6, 2.7 and 3.211:29
CIA-83ctheune python-3-2 * r121318 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ Fix up test initialisation for Python 3.2 on linux.11:29
CIA-83ctheune python-3-2 * r121319 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ Normalize output for easy_install.txt to match shared library files on linux.11:29
CIA-83ctheune python-3-2 * r121320 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ More API cover-ups for URLlib.11:29
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* Theuni2 waves towards J1m12:29
agroszerhey Theuni212:30
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Theuni2agroszer: hey12:31
agroszerhow is it going?12:31
* kosh set Theuni2 on fire12:31
Theuni2python 2-3 porting buildout is a nasty business12:31
* kosh hands out marshmallows12:31
Theuni2kosh: thanks :)12:31
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* Theuni2 pushes kosh over the edge12:31
Theuni2good ol'e times12:31
* Theuni2 burns happily12:32
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agroszerTheuni2, what about private packages, are going to tocuh that subject?12:34
Theuni2agroszer: no, doesn't look like it12:34
koshyou can't push me over the edge12:34
koshI went WAY over the edge long ago12:34
betabugkosh: he's pushing you over the edge, but in the other direction12:34
koshbetabug: I will never let him push me towards sanity! :)12:35
J1mMy IRC notifications seem to be hosed.12:35
woscagroszer: what are private packages about?12:35
betabugwosc: nobody knows, they're private12:36
Theuni2J1m: We started looking at the Python 2->3 branch yesterday and we deeply understand why you're annoyed with various aspects on the buildout code maintance.12:36
J1mI wrote buuldoutsftp a long time ago to deal with private packages.12:36
J1mWorks pretty well for us.12:36
J1mTheuni2, heh12:36
J1mDis you learn anything interesting about distutils2?12:38
* J1m loves making Theune type.12:38
Theuni2on the plus side: the API for dealing with mirrors and downloading packages seems simple.12:38
CIA-83ctheune python-3-2 * r121321 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/
CIA-83Fix IO encoding on Python 3.2 for subprocess interaction to detect other12:38
CIA-83installed Python versions. (Doesn't completely fix selecting-python.txt,12:38
CIA-83hannosch * r121322 Zope/buildout.cfg: Allow getting argparse from googlecode12:38
CIA-83hannosch 2.13 * r121323 Zope/buildout.cfg: Backport c121322 from trunk12:38
CIA-83tlotze python-3-2 * r121324 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ fixed recent import fixes12:38
CIA-83tlotze python-3-2 * r121325 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ made compatible with both python 2 and 312:38
Theuni2and also seems like the right place to direct some effort for mirror-selection, fail-over, ... etc12:39
Theuni2on the negative side: it doesn't support the existing metadata format at all and we don't have an information yet whether it is supposed to12:39
Theuni2we'll contact tarek about that today12:39
Theuni2martin has been working on a script to demonstrate downloading a (recursively resolved) set of packages that we can use to experiment and demonstrate performance improvements12:40
Theuni2thomas and i looked at the Python 2->3 branch and (as you probably noticed) did some changes already12:41
Theuni2we hit a rabbit hole yesterday with bootstrapping of some cross-version tests12:41
J1mIt would so obviously be a mistake not to support existing meta data that I can't believe it wouldn't be supported.12:41
Theuni2we're wondering whether the buildout tests really need to run other version interpreters12:41
* J1m doesn't read checkins12:42
Theuni2J1m: fine too. so you know now. :)12:42
J1mI know I sorta should, but life is short. I'm virtuous in other ways. :)12:43
Theuni2SAme here. So: how do you feel the cross-version interpreter calls in the test suite?12:43
J1mWell, it's really a question of what you feel about the feature of supporting multiple versions within a buildout.12:44
J1mIf you think the feature is important, it's worth testing.12:44
tlotzeAt least it's very icky to have Python versions 2.5 and 2.6 hard-coded.12:45
J1mIt's a feature I use, but I've discussed dropping it before.12:45
Theuni2We're having a hard time figuring out the intention of the tests ... some seem like "this test needs to run under 2.5 so we'll just kick up a python 2.5" others might be about running different interpreter versions within a buildout.12:45
J1mWell, I don't object to changing that.12:45
J1mIf you can think of something better.12:45
J1mBasically, the idea is that you need to *another* version of Python.12:46
Theuni2Right, the specific issue is that under Python 3.2 calling the 2.5 interpreter ends up with having a distribute that is Python 3 compatible pre-injected due to the Python path.12:46
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J1mThe approach so far has bee to pick the previous version. Of course that gets out of date.12:46
Theuni2Python2.5 fails on that. which indicates that the multi-version support might have become harder when introducing Python 3.12:47
J1mWell, I suspect this branch doesn't work w Py2 atm.12:47
Theuni2On that front we're making progress.12:47
Theuni2We got working on all supported versions and the testrunner doing something.12:48
J1mso it might be best to skip the multiversion tests for now until we run on multiple versions. :)12:48
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tlotzeSomehow talking about different Python versions within one buildout sounds strange when contrasted with, e.g., the restriction of not even allowing different versions of an egg in different parts.12:48
Theuni2We're still trying to establish a base-line of what's broken on 3.2, fix the low-hanging fruits there and keep going back and forth to have (almost) the same set of tests fail on all of them.12:48
tlotzeTo me, things like this sound like an indicator to keep things simple and drop multi-version support, but there might of course be use cases I don't know about.12:49
Theuni2J1m: i'm fine with that. actually understanding that its about a feature to support multiple versions makes more sense than the impression of just randomly picking specific interpreter versions.12:49
J1mAs I tried to say yesterday, a reasonable sprint strategy would be to focus on the tests that pass w Python 3.2 and make them work with Py2.5-2.712:49
tlotzethat's waht we're currently doing12:49
J1mTheuni2, like I said, feel free to come up with something better.12:49
J1mTesting is meta programming, so now you're into meta meta programming.12:50
Theuni2yesterday the list included 2.412:50
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J1mIt might be best to find some way to explicitly lst the versions you want to use.12:50
tlotzeAn interesting point about the feature of supporting multiple python versions is whether that should work across the 2/3 gap. Supporting it within either 2.x or 3.x should be a lot easier.12:51
J1mIf we keep the featutre, I think it should work accross any supported versions.12:52
J1mIncluding jython, etc.12:52
J1mBut I can live with dropping the feature.12:52
tlotzesounds like fun testing12:52
Theuni2Actually it sounds more like cleaning up the architecture and cleaning up between the distinction of the Python interpreter buildout is run with versus what the application is run with.12:53
Theuni2Historically both versions were the same and I would guess clean abstraction would help with testing there.12:53
J1mLet's keep in mind that while buildout is useful, it's not terribly exciting to maintain, so doing things that lower the maintenance burden, even at the expense of features are well worth considering.12:53
Theuni2so, other question, as that was dropped: do we support 2.4 or not?12:54
Theuni2We thought we do.12:54
J1mThere are *lots* of projects I'd much rather work on.12:54
J1mI'm OK w dropping Python 2.4 support.12:55
J1mOn that topic, I think distutils:12:55
J1m- Ads support for Python version compat in meta data12:55
tlotzedistutils2, you mean?12:56
J1m- And PyPy supports (or will support) getting meta data from PyPy wo downloading the package.12:56
tlotzeYes, there's an API for that which works on new-style meta data.12:57
J1mso it would be great if buildout or the improved download library could take supported Python version into account when picking distros.12:57
J1mIt would be especially great if we could leverage this somehow so as not to break existing Python 2.4 users.12:58
tlotzeJ1m: coming back to multiple python version support again, are there actual use cases for that feature?12:58
J1mMaybe releaese a Python 2.4-compatible version that knows not to try to upgrade to a Python 2.4-incompatible version.12:59
J1mtlotze, yes.12:59
J1mWe've used it. For example, we had buildouts for Zope 2 projects that needed old Python versions but included tools that used newer versions.13:00
Theuni2J1m: so far we don't have trouble supporting Python 2.413:00
J1mI have a buildout in my home directory that builds various scripts for multiple versions of Python.13:01
Theuni2so I'd be happy to keep it a supported version for now.13:01
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J1mAgain, I'm willing to drop the multi-version support if it becomes too painful.13:03
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tlotzeOK, understood.13:04
J1mBTW, I'm interested in anything that makes maintaining buildout easier.13:04
Theuni2yeah, we too after yestday's session. :)13:05
J1mThe tests are rather painful. It's mostly necessary to run tests in sub-processes because buildout manipulates the Python environment so much when it runs.13:06
J1mI've wondered if, for some functionality, especially for error reporting, if there's a better way to run tests. Like maybe somehow leveraging multi-processing.  That would require dropping support for older Python versions.13:07
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J1mI don't have a good anser, but I'm interested in ideas.13:07
tlotzemight be a good idea to look into multiprocessing13:07
tlotzebut that's probably a good next step after porting13:08
J1mBTW, I just remembered that I used to deal with Python version dependencies by distributing buildout in egg , rather than in source-release form.13:09
J1mThat's a really easy way to not break buildouts when dropping support for older Python versions.13:10
J1mAt least until we can think of something better.13:10
J1mtlotze, yup13:10
Theuni2something we see on the issue of maintenance is that a lot of the code is very mechanical13:11
Theuni2that makes it hard to study and IMHO hard to maintain because intentions aren't clear13:11
Theuni2i think that touches what you said yesterday about trying to make setuptools invocation "work" instead of adding an abstracting API13:12
Theuni2J1m: the code does a lot of things that are incidental instead of inherent to solving the problem at hand13:13
Theuni2that makes it hard to understand13:13
J1mBecause of trhe underlying apis.13:13
Theuni2one smell also is the size of files like easy_install13:14
J1mMy main regret is the name :)13:14
Theuni2I'm just violently agreeing. I think that there's a good potential for improving maintainability.13:15
J1mThat was originally a thin wrapper around the easy_install command, but It mostly isn't now.13:15
Theuni2here's another question about python version support: would you be fine to temporarily drop support for jython?13:15
J1mWe really shouldn't every try to use the command directly, but should simple invoke scripts (or the new things).13:15
J1mI really want to use jython, so I wouldn't want to drop support for long, although the existing support is tenuous.13:16
Theuni2i wouldn't even think that it still works after some of the changes.13:17
Theuni2i guess we should install jython over here and have a look13:17
Theuni2(i'm not referring to our changes but some other changes that happened after adding the support)13:17
tlotzeboth, probably13:17
J1mI'm planning a JVM implementation of ZEO servers to escape the GIL, and to get better performance by doing more in Java or Scala. Jython will be an important enabler of that.13:18
J1mFeel free to ignore jython for the sprint.13:18
Theuni2we'll try to not break it on purpose but we'll also not work hard for it then13:19
Theuni2Our questions so far are covered. We'll spend a bit more time to make the test situation more even beetween 3 and 2 now.13:19
tlotzeJ1m: thank you for your feedback!13:20
Theuni2thanks for your time13:20
J1mThanks for your efforts. Let me know if you want to discuss anything else.13:20
strichterJ1m: how high on your stack is the Java ZEO implementation? :-)13:25
J1mstrichter, not sure13:28
J1mPretty high13:28
J1mOur ZEO server is one of our biggest bottle necks.13:29
strichterJ1m: ok, that was my next question13:29
J1mWe have a server that has has ~95 clients and runs at around 120% CPU (on a 4 cpu box), which is pretty good for Python.13:30
strichterit is really great to see new life coming to the ZODB in light of all the NoSQL hype13:30
strichterhave you seen
J1mYeah, although I haven't seen it do anything.13:30
strichterJ1m: which means you are running already significant parts of the server in C space13:31
J1mRight, mostly the IO.13:31
strichterI have only played with it too; I have to find a small project to try it out; Python in the browser is also just very attractive to me13:31
J1mThis is the result of the "thready zeo" work for 3.10.13:31
J1mDude, come to terms with Javascript. Once you get past that, the world is a saner place. :)13:32
strichterJ1m: I am, I got pretty good, just don't like it :-)13:33
J1mJS isn't that bad.13:33
J1mAt least there's no JS 3 :)13:33
CIA-83tlotze python-3-2 * r121326 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ ( rewrote some print calls to give the same output in Python 2 and 313:33
J1mBTW, wrt to threadyness.  You'd be amazed how long "non-blocking" IO can block.13:35
J1mWe were seeing non-blocking IO calls taking up to a millisecond, at least according to strace.13:36
J1mPerhaps there's some issue with Python's socket implementation. <shrug>13:37
* J1m suspects YUI3 will kill YUI.13:38
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J1mY'all are making progress.16:19
Theuni2we're trying :)16:26
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Theuni2J1m: that paste is the baseline i got on python 3.2 and that we try to get on the 2 series, t oo16:27
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tlotzeTheuni2: (python-3-2 branch, Python 2.4)16:46
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CIA-83tlotze python-3-2 * r121327 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ (update.txt buildout.txt rewrote remaining print calls to give the same output in Python 2 and 317:37
CIA-83tlotze python-3-2 * r121328 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/update.txt: fixed remaining call to subprocess.check_call17:37
CIA-83tlotze python-3-2 * r121329 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ (5 files): avoid representations of (unicode) text appearing in doctests17:37
CIA-83tlotze python-3-2 * r121330 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ fixed string substitution syntax broken by a recent print() fix17:37
CIA-83mauritsvanrees * r121331 ZODB/src/persistent/ Fixed typo in comment17:37
CIA-83ctheune python-3-2 * r121332 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ (
CIA-83Restructure calling external interpreters.17:37
CIA-83* make IO handling consistent on Python 2 and 317:37
CIA-83* simplify business code, extract into separate function17:37
CIA-83faassen * r121333 hurry.workflow/src/hurry/workflow/ Interface wasn't complete.17:37
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CIA-83jim * r121334 /ZODB/branches/jim-jvm-zeo: Experimental20:34
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donriHow are persistent.dict and mapping different?23:00
donriAPI docs suggest the former inherits IterableUserDict but mapping is iterable too …23:01
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donriNevermind, looked at the source23:04
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