IRC log of #zope for Sunday, 2011-04-24

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CIA-83menesis * r121463 z3c.rml/ (buildout.cfg Use official PIL 1.1.714:45
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ecomoi want to learn productive Plone 4  dev but please tell me  -  are Zope 2.10+ on that Plone 4 based  - is the natural - good way to develop web apps this days, or it's more like atavism and i should rather use Bluebream or Grok or wait for Pyramids CMS or something..22:37
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ecomoand second - how is Zope 2.10 compares to Django in apps reusability, overall speed of development and - is it correct to even compare these ?22:38
ecomoas i don't want to learn two frameworks that basically do the same ..22:39
ecomoi'v already asked it on Plone channel but it seem that it's not the correct question there.22:41
koshwell the major advantage of plone and other zope based systems is security and reliability23:07
koshmost other cms systems have more explots in a week then zope/plone will have in a year23:07
koshI use zope 2.13 on my systems and been using zope since 2.0 or so LONG ago and I have not had zope crash on me in years23:08
koshI find development is very quick to do but not all find it that way23:08
koshwhen I have gone up against rails developers and others on contracts I have always been able to build a system faster and more reliably23:09
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ecomokosh: thank you for answer! have you ever used Django?23:13
koshI have looked at it but not used it23:14
koshwhat I don't like is that most systems have no security framework23:14
koshzope 2.x/ plone and pyramids can all fail closed23:14
koshgrok, rails, django and others fail open which I HATE23:14
koshmost of the frameworks require you to add security and makes no mistakes23:14
koshzope/plone require you to allow things otherwise they are dnied23:15
koshit is just a better security model23:16
koshall web systems should fail closed23:16
koshI just see so many exploits and so many failures in web systems that security is pretty darn important23:17
koshand most systems don't put any effort into security23:17
koshso even though it is faster to build stuff with some other systems to begin with it is not faster to build a reliable system23:18
koshif all you want to do is hack something together and constantly be fixing it and dealing with security issues then there are a lot of frameworks that will do that23:18
ecomokosh: seems like right way, (looking on Plone security track) .. one more question: can you suggest Zope 2.10+ over Pyramid for newcomer.. sorry to bother but i really spend weeks on searching proper framework23:18
koshprobably depends on how complex what you want to do is23:19
koshpyramid is a pretty impressive new project and it can be set to fail closed23:19
koshit is something I will probably look into very seriously in another year23:19
ecomokosh: oh, its simple Ecommerce for small shop, Many people from Plone channel - advice Django solutions) but it seems like fail to me if people that use Zope 2.10+ as modern framework with such a moder Plone thing - says that it sucks in ecommerce coz it's difficult to build and extend it properly23:21
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koshI have not used plone I just use pure zope 2.x and I built my own ecommerce which works very well for me23:22
koshhowever we use payflow link to process that way the credit card numbers are NEVER seen by the website23:23
koshI do no want to ever take a credit card number and then pass it off to somewhere else or authorize directly23:23
koshtoo much liability23:23
koshyou fall under so many laws if your site ever sees a credit card number even if only for a few seconds23:23
ecomoyou'r pro) have you  FLOSSed it somewhere? i'v looked for zope ecommerce but didn't find anything (  i'v used Drupal generally , before came to Python and it's not that it's too hard to learn Zope 2.10+ but there are so many Zopes and it really confusing when on all of these --23:25
ecomo0 of standart ecommerce solutions23:25
ecomoand there are at least 4 good on django ))23:25
ecomojust strange23:26
koshmine is all gpl but unless you are VERY VERY good I doubt you could make it work23:26
koshI never designed it to be friendly for others to use, it has been customized around how my company builds things23:26
ecomoi could try )23:26
koshI would suggest using a system that has actual documentation on how to use it23:27
ecomoit ended for my - that i only need to build 2 easy shops and for that - i need to go with Django or DO VERY HARD job on customizing existing Plones ) )23:27
ecomoonly Django haws)23:28
koshmine will only work with payflow link, nothing else at all23:28
ecomoit so wrong -- i'v talked for 4 days on Plone channel about it and people just getting link to Django and Say : Plone is CMS what do you want... but there are dozens of PHP cms's that have some not so bad ecommerce(23:29
koshI really doubt anyone else would get it to work23:29
koshphp you mean the language that averages over an exploit a day?23:29
koshthere is no such thing as good ecommerece on a system with that security track record23:29
ecomoof course) it's not good anyway - just not so bad for many,, anyway i Decided to use only Python for main language so, there is my way23:31
ecomobut strangely -- with all these Python benefits there is onl Django's commerce .. people suggesting it on presentations, forums, chats , and no one can tell what's wrong with Zope family that there  aren't solutions23:32
koshwell there are some but they are mostly just custom done instead of being a packaged product to use23:33
koshI have used packaged products in the past and just found them not acceptable23:33
koshalso more people now are not doing ecommerce on their sites anymore23:33
koshinstead they sell through amazon and just have the links on your site to add to the amazon shopping cart23:34
koshor use google checkout23:34
koshboth of which are more secure to use then anything you can build and more secure for the customer23:34
ecomoyeah - i need invoices so Yours can't work for me..   there is many east european countries without google or amazon sadly---  and without time to learn more of py frameworks as it all Hidden in Fog somehow.. so i see - they just pick Django as most Hyped=Clear way and promote Django over and over23:35
koshif I where to rebuild my ecommerce system from scratch today it would just use amazon or google checkout but probably amazon23:35
ecomoreally - i'm too - if i'd be in West23:36
koshwell the advantage of amazon is that the merchant never sees the credit card and so also can't lose it or be responsible for it23:36
ecomothere is paypal for that, i think23:37
koshsales go up when yo go through amazon from what I have seen since people are more apt to trust the site then some random tiny website23:37
ecomowe have our paypal like systems too23:37
koshpaypal is not realy trusted and paypal can retroactively take money away etc23:37
koshpaypal is not really something you want to deal with23:37
ecomoi have used it , yeah it's so-so ,, east-europe system are definitely worse though )23:38
koshI just see all the news where they constantly recommend you don't buy from small websites and just stay with amazon pretty much23:39
koshand people are doing it23:39
kosheven major companies are now selling their products through amazon instead of their own websites23:39
ecomoi like amazon and ebay personally but i DON'T like monopolistic systems -- these are in one place with Google for me-- they are fine but it's better to use-promote something else)23:41
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koshthe problem is that the other systems just can't be as secure23:42
koshit is safer to order from amazon because you can't spend several million dollars a day on your ecommerce system and keeping it secure23:42
koshwhile amazon can and does23:42
koshincluding having better fraud detection then you will get anywhere else23:43
ecomothat's for sure) but there are smaller shops with local clients that just want to represent nicely what they have.. and yes- Plone seems fine for it. It's just that Django have all the ecommerce.. maybe they simply don't understand now that - to build secure shop they need  other system or to unite for bug testing .. are there any good resources on Zope2.10+ modern development? besides official docs.. google is polluted with old zope l23:45
ecomoalso - please tell me - how does Zope 2.10+ connected with Bluebream now? i know something about ZTK but generally.23:46
koshbluebream is what was zope 3 and it is based on ztk23:47
koshzope 2.x is not really connected to bluebream in any real way23:47
ecomoomg, why so? aren't it a modern Zope reincarnation? so i see - there will be two teams - one working on some strange Zope 2.5555 like system with some parts of what became Bluebream?23:49
koshzope 3 was never an upgrade for zope 2 and it should have been given a completely different name23:49
koshit never really caught on but some people did use it23:49
koshwhen zope 3 was killed some of the devs made bluebream which is based on it23:49
koshzope 2.13 is also using the ztk now but it also does a lot of other stuff23:50
ecomoand 3d zope team on Pyramid.. hm.. i'v thought - Zope 2.10+ or acquired many tech from Zope 3.. so it can't be totally independent23:51
ecomoare zope 2.13 can be compared to 'modern' frameworks like Pyramid or Django or ROR..?23:51
koshpyramid is not part of zope23:52
koshzope 2.x is only recently adding in stuff from the ztk but most of it still has nothing to do with the ztk23:53
koshhowever I am heading to bed so have fun :)23:53
ecomoi know - but there are a whole Community from TG, BFG, Pylons that build it .. and as i know - most of these people used or using zope in some way)23:53
ecomogood night)23:54

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