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| CIA-83 | menesis * r121463 z3c.rml/ (buildout.cfg setup.py): Use official PIL 1.1.7 | 14:45 |
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| ecomo | hi! | 22:34 |
| ecomo | i want to learn productive Plone 4 dev but please tell me - are Zope 2.10+ on that Plone 4 based - is the natural - good way to develop web apps this days, or it's more like atavism and i should rather use Bluebream or Grok or wait for Pyramids CMS or something.. | 22:37 |
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| ecomo | and second - how is Zope 2.10 compares to Django in apps reusability, overall speed of development and - is it correct to even compare these ? | 22:38 |
| ecomo | as i don't want to learn two frameworks that basically do the same .. | 22:39 |
| ecomo | i'v already asked it on Plone channel but it seem that it's not the correct question there. | 22:41 |
| kosh | well the major advantage of plone and other zope based systems is security and reliability | 23:07 |
| kosh | most other cms systems have more explots in a week then zope/plone will have in a year | 23:07 |
| kosh | I use zope 2.13 on my systems and been using zope since 2.0 or so LONG ago and I have not had zope crash on me in years | 23:08 |
| kosh | I find development is very quick to do but not all find it that way | 23:08 |
| kosh | when I have gone up against rails developers and others on contracts I have always been able to build a system faster and more reliably | 23:09 |
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| ecomo | kosh: thank you for answer! have you ever used Django? | 23:13 |
| kosh | I have looked at it but not used it | 23:14 |
| kosh | what I don't like is that most systems have no security framework | 23:14 |
| kosh | zope 2.x/ plone and pyramids can all fail closed | 23:14 |
| kosh | grok, rails, django and others fail open which I HATE | 23:14 |
| kosh | most of the frameworks require you to add security and makes no mistakes | 23:14 |
| kosh | zope/plone require you to allow things otherwise they are dnied | 23:15 |
| kosh | it is just a better security model | 23:16 |
| kosh | all web systems should fail closed | 23:16 |
| kosh | I just see so many exploits and so many failures in web systems that security is pretty darn important | 23:17 |
| kosh | and most systems don't put any effort into security | 23:17 |
| kosh | so even though it is faster to build stuff with some other systems to begin with it is not faster to build a reliable system | 23:18 |
| kosh | if all you want to do is hack something together and constantly be fixing it and dealing with security issues then there are a lot of frameworks that will do that | 23:18 |
| ecomo | kosh: seems like right way, (looking on Plone security track) .. one more question: can you suggest Zope 2.10+ over Pyramid for newcomer.. sorry to bother but i really spend weeks on searching proper framework | 23:18 |
| kosh | probably depends on how complex what you want to do is | 23:19 |
| kosh | pyramid is a pretty impressive new project and it can be set to fail closed | 23:19 |
| kosh | it is something I will probably look into very seriously in another year | 23:19 |
| ecomo | kosh: oh, its simple Ecommerce for small shop, Many people from Plone channel - advice Django solutions) but it seems like fail to me if people that use Zope 2.10+ as modern framework with such a moder Plone thing - says that it sucks in ecommerce coz it's difficult to build and extend it properly | 23:21 |
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| kosh | I have not used plone I just use pure zope 2.x and I built my own ecommerce which works very well for me | 23:22 |
| kosh | however we use payflow link to process that way the credit card numbers are NEVER seen by the website | 23:23 |
| kosh | I do no want to ever take a credit card number and then pass it off to somewhere else or authorize directly | 23:23 |
| kosh | too much liability | 23:23 |
| kosh | you fall under so many laws if your site ever sees a credit card number even if only for a few seconds | 23:23 |
| ecomo | you'r pro) have you FLOSSed it somewhere? i'v looked for zope ecommerce but didn't find anything ( i'v used Drupal generally , before came to Python and it's not that it's too hard to learn Zope 2.10+ but there are so many Zopes and it really confusing when on all of these -- | 23:25 |
| ecomo | 0 of standart ecommerce solutions | 23:25 |
| ecomo | and there are at least 4 good on django )) | 23:25 |
| ecomo | just strange | 23:26 |
| kosh | mine is all gpl but unless you are VERY VERY good I doubt you could make it work | 23:26 |
| kosh | I never designed it to be friendly for others to use, it has been customized around how my company builds things | 23:26 |
| ecomo | i could try ) | 23:26 |
| kosh | I would suggest using a system that has actual documentation on how to use it | 23:27 |
| ecomo | it ended for my - that i only need to build 2 easy shops and for that - i need to go with Django or DO VERY HARD job on customizing existing Plones ) ) | 23:27 |
| ecomo | only Django haws) | 23:28 |
| kosh | mine will only work with payflow link, nothing else at all | 23:28 |
| ecomo | it so wrong -- i'v talked for 4 days on Plone channel about it and people just getting link to Django and Say : Plone is CMS what do you want... but there are dozens of PHP cms's that have some not so bad ecommerce( | 23:29 |
| kosh | I really doubt anyone else would get it to work | 23:29 |
| kosh | php you mean the language that averages over an exploit a day? | 23:29 |
| kosh | there is no such thing as good ecommerece on a system with that security track record | 23:29 |
| ecomo | of course) it's not good anyway - just not so bad for many,, anyway i Decided to use only Python for main language so, there is my way | 23:31 |
| ecomo | but strangely -- with all these Python benefits there is onl Django's commerce .. people suggesting it on presentations, forums, chats , and no one can tell what's wrong with Zope family that there aren't solutions | 23:32 |
| kosh | well there are some but they are mostly just custom done instead of being a packaged product to use | 23:33 |
| kosh | I have used packaged products in the past and just found them not acceptable | 23:33 |
| kosh | also more people now are not doing ecommerce on their sites anymore | 23:33 |
| kosh | instead they sell through amazon and just have the links on your site to add to the amazon shopping cart | 23:34 |
| kosh | or use google checkout | 23:34 |
| kosh | both of which are more secure to use then anything you can build and more secure for the customer | 23:34 |
| ecomo | yeah - i need invoices so Yours can't work for me.. there is many east european countries without google or amazon sadly--- and without time to learn more of py frameworks as it all Hidden in Fog somehow.. so i see - they just pick Django as most Hyped=Clear way and promote Django over and over | 23:35 |
| kosh | if I where to rebuild my ecommerce system from scratch today it would just use amazon or google checkout but probably amazon | 23:35 |
| ecomo | really - i'm too - if i'd be in West | 23:36 |
| kosh | well the advantage of amazon is that the merchant never sees the credit card and so also can't lose it or be responsible for it | 23:36 |
| ecomo | there is paypal for that, i think | 23:37 |
| kosh | sales go up when yo go through amazon from what I have seen since people are more apt to trust the site then some random tiny website | 23:37 |
| ecomo | we have our paypal like systems too | 23:37 |
| kosh | paypal is not realy trusted and paypal can retroactively take money away etc | 23:37 |
| kosh | paypal is not really something you want to deal with | 23:37 |
| ecomo | i have used it , yeah it's so-so ,, east-europe system are definitely worse though ) | 23:38 |
| kosh | I just see all the news where they constantly recommend you don't buy from small websites and just stay with amazon pretty much | 23:39 |
| kosh | and people are doing it | 23:39 |
| kosh | even major companies are now selling their products through amazon instead of their own websites | 23:39 |
| ecomo | i like amazon and ebay personally but i DON'T like monopolistic systems -- these are in one place with Google for me-- they are fine but it's better to use-promote something else) | 23:41 |
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| kosh | the problem is that the other systems just can't be as secure | 23:42 |
| kosh | it is safer to order from amazon because you can't spend several million dollars a day on your ecommerce system and keeping it secure | 23:42 |
| kosh | while amazon can and does | 23:42 |
| kosh | including having better fraud detection then you will get anywhere else | 23:43 |
| ecomo | that's for sure) but there are smaller shops with local clients that just want to represent nicely what they have.. and yes- Plone seems fine for it. It's just that Django have all the ecommerce.. maybe they simply don't understand now that - to build secure shop they need other system or to unite for bug testing .. are there any good resources on Zope2.10+ modern development? besides official docs.. google is polluted with old zope l | 23:45 |
| ecomo | also - please tell me - how does Zope 2.10+ connected with Bluebream now? i know something about ZTK but generally. | 23:46 |
| kosh | bluebream is what was zope 3 and it is based on ztk | 23:47 |
| kosh | zope 2.x is not really connected to bluebream in any real way | 23:47 |
| ecomo | omg, why so? aren't it a modern Zope reincarnation? so i see - there will be two teams - one working on some strange Zope 2.5555 like system with some parts of what became Bluebream? | 23:49 |
| kosh | zope 3 was never an upgrade for zope 2 and it should have been given a completely different name | 23:49 |
| kosh | it never really caught on but some people did use it | 23:49 |
| kosh | when zope 3 was killed some of the devs made bluebream which is based on it | 23:49 |
| kosh | zope 2.13 is also using the ztk now but it also does a lot of other stuff | 23:50 |
| ecomo | and 3d zope team on Pyramid.. hm.. i'v thought - Zope 2.10+ or acquired many tech from Zope 3.. so it can't be totally independent | 23:51 |
| ecomo | are zope 2.13 can be compared to 'modern' frameworks like Pyramid or Django or ROR..? | 23:51 |
| kosh | pyramid is not part of zope | 23:52 |
| kosh | zope 2.x is only recently adding in stuff from the ztk but most of it still has nothing to do with the ztk | 23:53 |
| kosh | however I am heading to bed so have fun :) | 23:53 |
| ecomo | i know - but there are a whole Community from TG, BFG, Pylons that build it .. and as i know - most of these people used or using zope in some way) | 23:53 |
| ecomo | thanks! | 23:54 |
| ecomo | good night) | 23:54 |
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