IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2011-04-26

koshif you care about security plone is going to beat django hands down00:00
koshthe django app is likely to have more exploits in a year, especially with code you add to, then a plone app will have in the next 10 years00:00
ecomoTresEquis: basically i need ecommerce now - Django has some goodies , Plone has a few too, but Plones - definitely need to upgrade - using Zope .. but Zope seems "difficult" comparing to Django.. maybe only seems, i'm now reading documentations Zope 2.12 book - is it good for start?00:01
TresEquisecomo, Plone gives you lots of "content managment" goodness in the core -- Django gives you the admin UI :)00:03
TresEquisadd-ons provide e-commerce functionality in either case00:03
TresEquisIf core Plone features are interesting, and you find an e-commerce extension which meets your needs, then Plone would be worth looking at00:04
ecomokosh: don't know for sure that Django has so many flaws in sec, but  i'v seen Plone's government adoption level - very impressive..but i'm doing completely different level now - simple local eshop00:04
TresEquisI wouldn't use it for a "pure" e-commerce site myself (where I didn't care about Plone's CMS features)00:05
koshoverall I don't see ecommerce as very important anymore to realy have in a product since you can use stuff like google checkout or amazon checkout00:05
koshTresEquis: strangely my ecommerce sites have been the biggest users of CMS type features00:05
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ecomoTresEquis: why? only 'coz it's an overkill?00:05
koshTresEquis: so they can add all kinds of products, information about it etc00:05
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ecomoi understand  that - i can't write good secure ecommerce alone ofc.  - so using Plone security could do the best, but are Django really so bad on sec.? there  are few very impressive shops, comparing to - Plone's .. don't know if Plones alpha-beta shops can compare to Djangos 'production' like either  )00:08
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koshecomo: on your ecommerece system do you plan that people will enter credit card numbers directly on your website?00:12
ecomoagain - i don't understand the future of Zope2 - - if i'll spend a half of year - learn it good -- and after that i'll find that the only good use of it - in Plone and for some web apps or custom work it's really faster- better to use Django,, just can't afford another half of year to play with Django and see that it do almost the same as ZOpe2 or vice-versa00:13
ecomokosh: no, invoice func.00:13
koshah so just send an invoice at the end of the month etc00:14
ecomokosh: like that )00:14
koshso you will still have to deal with things like sql injection, writing data to the wrong user etc on the django side but not credit card numbers at least00:15
ecomokosh: seems like ) i'm only afraid - that after some time when my clients would need (oh,by some reason) to transfer their data from ZODB to some RDB - they'll curse me for my choice .. so, maybe i'll need to use SQLAlchimy or what ever tools exist for Plone.. and try to connect it well with existing Plone ecomm solutions... and only - maybe it'll play well00:18
koshtransferring data from ZODB to RDB is not very workable00:19
koshhowever transferring RDB to ZODB or RDB to any of the new nosql systems is not very workable either00:20
koshheck transferring from one RDB to another RDB does not always work very well either and queries usually have to be pretty majorly rewritten00:21
ecomoi'v heard it too..00:21
koshso far in about 10 years I don't think a single one of my customers have ever cared what they system was even built on00:22
ecomoi don't see the Big problem in RDBs at a whole -  i'v done some transfering - it's not so hellish.. but ZODB scares me (and attracts too )00:23
koshmy major issues with RDBS is how careful you must be on all usage of it00:23
koshthe major way of quering a relational DB is just so easy to exploit00:23
ecomokosh: can you comment - "Z2 is a full "peer" of grok / bluebream"? i don't understand it , it means - Z2 contains blubream or something modern parts... or it goes completely its own way?00:28
koshit means it is a seperate project entirely00:29
koshit is not above or below in any way00:29
koshhowever it does share a lot of code and more will be shared over time00:29
kosheven pyramid is sharing code with zope projects00:29
koshZ2 is in many ways more modern then the newer frameworks are00:30
koshrails, django and others are only recently starting to pay attention to security00:30
ecomokosh: i'v read pyramids docs, they are pretty) but why would the part of Zope developers - create something like Blubream/Grok and go entirely with it, another part - create Pyramid.. and all of theme leave ZOpe2 to remaining devs?00:31
koshhistorical reasons mostly00:31
koshat one point the core devs wanted zope 2 dead entirely and they promised us a zope 3 that would be an upgrade to zope 2 and then all projects would be able to upgrade to zope 300:31
koshthat never happened, when they finally made a zope 3 it was no longer what was once promised and so very few used it but some did00:32
koshthose that did use it found some shortcomings with it that where not easy to change so they made grok00:32
koshlater zope 3 was basically cancelled and was turned into bluebream by those what wanted to keep using it00:32
koshit was discussed that zope 2 should be renamed to zope 4 to indicate that it was the newest version to use and the main version people should use but that was decided against since it was felt it would cause confusion00:33
koshpyramid was based off of two projects one of them was repoze.bfg00:33
koshrepoze.bfg was made a long time ago now to bring zope 2 technologies outside zope 200:34
koshhowever since ztk is making it much easier to do that now pyramid looks like it is using some ztk things00:34
koshI would expect eventually that zope 2 and pyramid will be pretty easy to move between00:34
koshpyramid can already use zeo00:34
koshit actually looks like in a few years I could actually move my zope 2 apps to pyramid and keep them running nicely00:35
runyagazope2 using wsgi with webob is what is needed00:36
runyagathen you can pick and choose frameworks more easily00:36
koshzope 2 looks like it will work with wsgi normally soon00:36
ecomoso, maybe Plone will ported to it, i'v asked about on other channels - nobody knows the future) )00:36
runyagazope2 works w/ wsgi00:36
koshit looks like with zope 2.13 it is also working completely right last I checked00:37
runyagawe have it in production00:37
koshah does it work with streamed files now? that was the last holdup I knew of00:37
runyagawebob needs to replace request/response00:38
koshany actual advantage using wsgi over seperate zope servers? right now I run 4 zope servers and have nginx do load balancing between them but any server can serve any request since I share the auth and session information over zeo00:38
runyagathat might be near impossible00:38
runyagamod_wsgi handles the processes00:38
runyagait can cycle them every x requests or ram usage00:38
runyagabetter for apache/mod_wsgi to handle processes than managing them yourself00:38
koshI won't use apache anymore00:39
koshthat serve can go die in a ditch00:39
koshI had too many problems with it serving the wrong content00:39
runyagawell. i'm sure you can make it work w/ nginx with lots of work00:39
runyagabut its really nice00:39
runyagawe have 8 clients w/ 1 thread and relstorage00:39
koshfound bug reports on it and the apache devs kept closing the bug reports and people kept reopening them00:39
runyagasuper nice00:39
koshsometimes apache would serve data from the wrong request00:39
runyaganever seen that00:40
koshI tried relstorage and decided against using it00:40
koshzeo in 2.13 handled a higher concurrent load and it handled it faster and with lower resource usage00:40
runyagarelstore or zeo -- all the same00:40
runyagawe need circular replication00:40
runyagaand more fancy feataures so zeo was no go00:40
koshright now I run 4 zopes with 2 threads each and 1 zeo for each server and that has worked well00:40
runyagaits all what works for you00:41
runyagathats the ultimate test00:41
koshI tried 8 zopes with 1 thread each and that used more memory and also ran a little slower00:41
kosh4 zopes with 1 thread each use a little less memory but also a little slower so that balance has worked well00:41
koshI modified exUserFolder to do auth using the built in zope session instead of its own cookie and then share the session over zeo so the load balance is seamless between the instances00:42
koshit has worked very very nicely and it means no instance gets overloaded and I can restart them one after another with no interruptions of any kind00:42
koshI just wondered what wsgi would do different then what I do now, does it take less ram then normally running zope etc00:43
kiorkyfor wsgi purpose i would go for paste/gunicorn00:56
kiorky(paste as pastedeploy and the gunicorn paste server factory)00:56
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CIA-83newbery * r121464 /zc.buildout/branches/newbery-multiple-increments: Branching to add support for multiple +/- increments in configs.01:48
CIA-83newbery newbery-multiple-increments * r121465 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ ( Add support for multiple +/- increments in configs.01:48
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planetzopebotPyramid CRUD sprint (RedTurtle Technology)
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koshanybody know the proper way to test for blob support in the current filestorage?17:32
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