| kosh | if you care about security plone is going to beat django hands down | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| kosh | the django app is likely to have more exploits in a year, especially with code you add to, then a plone app will have in the next 10 years | 00:00 |
| ecomo | TresEquis: basically i need ecommerce now - Django has some goodies , Plone has a few too, but Plones - definitely need to upgrade - using Zope .. but Zope seems "difficult" comparing to Django.. maybe only seems, i'm now reading documentations Zope 2.12 book - is it good for start? | 00:01 |
| TresEquis | ecomo, Plone gives you lots of "content managment" goodness in the core -- Django gives you the admin UI :) | 00:03 |
| TresEquis | add-ons provide e-commerce functionality in either case | 00:03 |
| TresEquis | If core Plone features are interesting, and you find an e-commerce extension which meets your needs, then Plone would be worth looking at | 00:04 |
| ecomo | kosh: don't know for sure that Django has so many flaws in sec, but i'v seen Plone's government adoption level - very impressive..but i'm doing completely different level now - simple local eshop | 00:04 |
| TresEquis | I wouldn't use it for a "pure" e-commerce site myself (where I didn't care about Plone's CMS features) | 00:05 |
| kosh | overall I don't see ecommerce as very important anymore to realy have in a product since you can use stuff like google checkout or amazon checkout | 00:05 |
| kosh | TresEquis: strangely my ecommerce sites have been the biggest users of CMS type features | 00:05 |
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| ecomo | TresEquis: why? only 'coz it's an overkill? | 00:05 |
| kosh | TresEquis: so they can add all kinds of products, information about it etc | 00:05 |
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| ecomo | i understand that - i can't write good secure ecommerce alone ofc. - so using Plone security could do the best, but are Django really so bad on sec.? there are few very impressive shops, comparing to - Plone's .. don't know if Plones alpha-beta shops can compare to Djangos 'production' like either ) | 00:08 |
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| kosh | ecomo: on your ecommerece system do you plan that people will enter credit card numbers directly on your website? | 00:12 |
| ecomo | again - i don't understand the future of Zope2 - - if i'll spend a half of year - learn it good -- and after that i'll find that the only good use of it - in Plone and for some web apps or custom work it's really faster- better to use Django,, just can't afford another half of year to play with Django and see that it do almost the same as ZOpe2 or vice-versa | 00:13 |
| ecomo | kosh: no, invoice func. | 00:13 |
| kosh | ah so just send an invoice at the end of the month etc | 00:14 |
| ecomo | kosh: like that ) | 00:14 |
| kosh | so you will still have to deal with things like sql injection, writing data to the wrong user etc on the django side but not credit card numbers at least | 00:15 |
| ecomo | kosh: seems like ) i'm only afraid - that after some time when my clients would need (oh,by some reason) to transfer their data from ZODB to some RDB - they'll curse me for my choice .. so, maybe i'll need to use SQLAlchimy or what ever tools exist for Plone.. and try to connect it well with existing Plone ecomm solutions... and only - maybe it'll play well | 00:18 |
| kosh | transferring data from ZODB to RDB is not very workable | 00:19 |
| kosh | however transferring RDB to ZODB or RDB to any of the new nosql systems is not very workable either | 00:20 |
| kosh | heck transferring from one RDB to another RDB does not always work very well either and queries usually have to be pretty majorly rewritten | 00:21 |
| ecomo | ) | 00:21 |
| ecomo | i'v heard it too.. | 00:21 |
| kosh | so far in about 10 years I don't think a single one of my customers have ever cared what they system was even built on | 00:22 |
| ecomo | i don't see the Big problem in RDBs at a whole - i'v done some transfering - it's not so hellish.. but ZODB scares me (and attracts too ) | 00:23 |
| kosh | my major issues with RDBS is how careful you must be on all usage of it | 00:23 |
| kosh | the major way of quering a relational DB is just so easy to exploit | 00:23 |
| ecomo | kosh: can you comment - "Z2 is a full "peer" of grok / bluebream"? i don't understand it , it means - Z2 contains blubream or something modern parts... or it goes completely its own way? | 00:28 |
| kosh | it means it is a seperate project entirely | 00:29 |
| kosh | it is not above or below in any way | 00:29 |
| kosh | however it does share a lot of code and more will be shared over time | 00:29 |
| kosh | even pyramid is sharing code with zope projects | 00:29 |
| kosh | Z2 is in many ways more modern then the newer frameworks are | 00:30 |
| kosh | rails, django and others are only recently starting to pay attention to security | 00:30 |
| ecomo | kosh: i'v read pyramids docs, they are pretty) but why would the part of Zope developers - create something like Blubream/Grok and go entirely with it, another part - create Pyramid.. and all of theme leave ZOpe2 to remaining devs? | 00:31 |
| kosh | historical reasons mostly | 00:31 |
| kosh | at one point the core devs wanted zope 2 dead entirely and they promised us a zope 3 that would be an upgrade to zope 2 and then all projects would be able to upgrade to zope 3 | 00:31 |
| kosh | that never happened, when they finally made a zope 3 it was no longer what was once promised and so very few used it but some did | 00:32 |
| kosh | those that did use it found some shortcomings with it that where not easy to change so they made grok | 00:32 |
| kosh | later zope 3 was basically cancelled and was turned into bluebream by those what wanted to keep using it | 00:32 |
| kosh | it was discussed that zope 2 should be renamed to zope 4 to indicate that it was the newest version to use and the main version people should use but that was decided against since it was felt it would cause confusion | 00:33 |
| kosh | pyramid was based off of two projects one of them was repoze.bfg | 00:33 |
| kosh | repoze.bfg was made a long time ago now to bring zope 2 technologies outside zope 2 | 00:34 |
| kosh | however since ztk is making it much easier to do that now pyramid looks like it is using some ztk things | 00:34 |
| kosh | I would expect eventually that zope 2 and pyramid will be pretty easy to move between | 00:34 |
| kosh | pyramid can already use zeo | 00:34 |
| kosh | it actually looks like in a few years I could actually move my zope 2 apps to pyramid and keep them running nicely | 00:35 |
| runyaga | zope2 using wsgi with webob is what is needed | 00:36 |
| runyaga | then you can pick and choose frameworks more easily | 00:36 |
| kosh | zope 2 looks like it will work with wsgi normally soon | 00:36 |
| ecomo | so, maybe Plone will ported to it, i'v asked about on other channels - nobody knows the future) ) | 00:36 |
| runyaga | zope2 works w/ wsgi | 00:36 |
| kosh | it looks like with zope 2.13 it is also working completely right last I checked | 00:37 |
| runyaga | we have it in production | 00:37 |
| kosh | ah does it work with streamed files now? that was the last holdup I knew of | 00:37 |
| runyaga | yes | 00:37 |
| runyaga | webob needs to replace request/response | 00:38 |
| kosh | any actual advantage using wsgi over seperate zope servers? right now I run 4 zope servers and have nginx do load balancing between them but any server can serve any request since I share the auth and session information over zeo | 00:38 |
| runyaga | that might be near impossible | 00:38 |
| runyaga | mod_wsgi handles the processes | 00:38 |
| runyaga | it can cycle them every x requests or ram usage | 00:38 |
| runyaga | better for apache/mod_wsgi to handle processes than managing them yourself | 00:38 |
| kosh | I won't use apache anymore | 00:39 |
| kosh | that serve can go die in a ditch | 00:39 |
| kosh | server | 00:39 |
| runyaga | ;-) | 00:39 |
| kosh | I had too many problems with it serving the wrong content | 00:39 |
| runyaga | well. i'm sure you can make it work w/ nginx with lots of work | 00:39 |
| runyaga | but its really nice | 00:39 |
| runyaga | we have 8 clients w/ 1 thread and relstorage | 00:39 |
| kosh | found bug reports on it and the apache devs kept closing the bug reports and people kept reopening them | 00:39 |
| runyaga | super nice | 00:39 |
| kosh | sometimes apache would serve data from the wrong request | 00:39 |
| runyaga | never seen that | 00:40 |
| kosh | I tried relstorage and decided against using it | 00:40 |
| kosh | zeo in 2.13 handled a higher concurrent load and it handled it faster and with lower resource usage | 00:40 |
| runyaga | relstore or zeo -- all the same | 00:40 |
| runyaga | we need circular replication | 00:40 |
| runyaga | and more fancy feataures so zeo was no go | 00:40 |
| kosh | right now I run 4 zopes with 2 threads each and 1 zeo for each server and that has worked well | 00:40 |
| runyaga | yup | 00:41 |
| runyaga | its all what works for you | 00:41 |
| runyaga | thats the ultimate test | 00:41 |
| kosh | I tried 8 zopes with 1 thread each and that used more memory and also ran a little slower | 00:41 |
| kosh | 4 zopes with 1 thread each use a little less memory but also a little slower so that balance has worked well | 00:41 |
| kosh | I modified exUserFolder to do auth using the built in zope session instead of its own cookie and then share the session over zeo so the load balance is seamless between the instances | 00:42 |
| kosh | it has worked very very nicely and it means no instance gets overloaded and I can restart them one after another with no interruptions of any kind | 00:42 |
| kosh | I just wondered what wsgi would do different then what I do now, does it take less ram then normally running zope etc | 00:43 |
| kiorky | for wsgi purpose i would go for paste/gunicorn | 00:56 |
| kiorky | (paste as pastedeploy and the gunicorn paste server factory) | 00:56 |
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| CIA-83 | newbery * r121464 /zc.buildout/branches/newbery-multiple-increments: Branching to add support for multiple +/- increments in configs. | 01:48 |
| CIA-83 | newbery newbery-multiple-increments * r121465 zc.buildout/src/zc/buildout/ (tests.py buildout.py): Add support for multiple +/- increments in configs. | 01:48 |
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| planetzopebot | Pyramid CRUD sprint (RedTurtle Technology) http://blog.redturtle.it/redturtle-blog/pyramid-crud-sprint | 12:09 |
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| kosh | anybody know the proper way to test for blob support in the current filestorage? | 17:32 |
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