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| CIA-83 | jim * r121630 /ZODB/branches/jim-python-btrees: | 13:53 |
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| CIA-83 | jim jim-python-btrees * r121631 ZODB/src/BTrees/ (___BTree.py OOBTree.py): checkpoint | 13:53 |
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| sp0cksbeard | mcdonc: I'm looking at wsgi servers to use with one of our applications. do you have any recommendations regarding ones to use? | 19:14 |
| sp0cksbeard | J1m mentioned (offline) that you may have looked at some in the past. I read some of the repoze.bfg docs that talk of ZServer | 19:15 |
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| CIA-83 | andreasjung beta.zope.org * r121640 zopeorg.buildout/buildout.cfg: Products.PloneHotfix20110720 | 20:25 |
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| runyaga | TresEquis, ? | 22:29 |
| TresEquis | runyaga, hmm? | 22:30 |
| runyaga | anyone see zope branch sans acquisition? | 22:30 |
| runyaga | any thoughts on zope/cmf w/o acquisition? | 22:30 |
| TresEquis | not interesting | 22:31 |
| TresEquis | I've seen checkin messages for the branch | 22:31 |
| TresEquis | I *like* acquisition | 22:31 |
| TresEquis | for what I use it for | 22:31 |
| runyaga | __parent__ could not replace it? | 22:32 |
| TresEquis | no | 22:32 |
| TresEquis | not for what I use it for | 22:32 |
| runyaga | what are you using it for? | 22:32 |
| TresEquis | to acquire attributes (settings) from parent containers | 22:32 |
| TresEquis | I don't see a point in trying to factor it out of Zope2 | 22:32 |
| TresEquis | just start over | 22:33 |
| runyaga | what about making it explicit? | 22:34 |
| davisagli | I was just going to say that. I'd like to see implicit acquisition die in a fire | 22:34 |
| TresEquis | what do you think it is costing you? And why do you thing Z2 has any value at all w/o it? | 22:35 |
| TresEquis | Stable, backward-compatibility for existing apps *is* the value proposition | 22:35 |
| TresEquis | doing anything radically new on top of Z2 is clinically insane | 22:35 |
| runyaga | trye | 22:35 |
| runyaga | true | 22:35 |
| TresEquis | just use pyramid ;) | 22:36 |
| davisagli | I guess I should be more specific. I'd like for Plone to have a way to opt out of implicit acquisition. and I'd like to be able to experiment with running Plone on Python interpreters that don't support C extensions. | 22:38 |
| runyaga | and that cant happen w/o massive changes | 22:39 |
| TresEquis | davisagli, just don't derived from it | 22:42 |
| davisagli | TresEquis: if we get Zope2 setting up __parent__ pointers correctly, that's probably sufficient | 22:43 |
| TresEquis | you'll have to fix the thousands of places which expect to acquire stuff, but there is no majyk bullet for that | 22:43 |
| TresEquis | z2 already does | 22:43 |
| davisagli | oh, really? I missed that | 22:43 |
| TresEquis | or at least, z2 understands them | 22:43 |
| davisagli | that's different | 22:44 |
| TresEquis | the container is responsible for setting them | 22:44 |
| davisagli | right. and OFS doesn't | 22:44 |
| TresEquis | again, you control horizontal and vertical | 22:44 |
| TresEquis | Why would you be using OFS? | 22:44 |
| TresEquis | Just Say No | 22:44 |
| davisagli | TresEquis: well, we do *shrug* | 22:44 |
| kosh | I like acquisition a lot | 22:44 |
| TresEquis | you already have your own folder implementation: just change it to set __parent__ on items | 22:45 |
| kosh | however __parent__ pointers apparently massively slows down copying and exports | 22:45 |
| kosh | something to do with how the pickles work | 22:46 |
| davisagli | TresEquis: yeah, that might work now that plone.folder is in core. last time I thought about this much was in Plone 3 days. | 22:46 |
| kosh | I was reading a thread on that in plone and they undid the changes and now are just setting __parent__ for temp type objects | 22:46 |
| davisagli | kosh: the problem was that Zope2 follows parent pointers when exporting ZEXP dumps....so you would end up exporting the entire db when you just wanted one folder. that can probably be resolved though | 22:47 |
| kosh | so settings __parent__ by default has some pretty bad consequences | 22:47 |
| kosh | davisagli: also does it when copying since copy and pasteing to a different part of a zope site uses the same mechanism | 22:47 |
| kosh | however until it is resolved setting __parent__ for all items can be crippling | 22:47 |
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| J1m | TresEquis, do you have any recent opinions on which wsgi servers are best for production? | 23:04 |
| TresEquis | mod_wsgi is that we use | 23:04 |
| J1m | Thanks. | 23:05 |
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| J1m | sp0cksbeard, ^^^ :) | 23:06 |
| TresEquis | fixing export / import likely requires wrapping __setstate__ to ignore __parent__ attributes | 23:06 |
| kosh | I ended up dumping apache a while ago and moved to nginx, no idea how well it does wsgi though | 23:06 |
| sp0cksbeard | J1m: , TresEquis: thanks :-) | 23:06 |
| kosh | but under load with the proxy balancer in apache I found that it would screw up requests | 23:06 |
| kosh | sometimes it would serve the data to the wrong person | 23:07 |
| kosh | the bug report for that keeps being opened and closed again | 23:07 |
| J1m | ouch | 23:07 |
| kosh | it was the weirdest thing but sometimes instead of the html for the page you would get an image back that was supposed to be served to someone else and vice versa | 23:07 |
| kosh | so now I run 4 zopes behind nginx and 1 zeo on a rackspace cloud server and that works extremely well | 23:08 |
| kosh | what would wsgi change about that? slower, faster etc | 23:08 |
| J1m | I don't understand the last comment. We use wsgi for everything now. Either ZTK or bobo. | 23:09 |
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| kosh | just wondered what advantage wsgi has over regular zserver and proxy to it | 23:10 |
| TresEquis | kosh, zserver does too much for many apps | 23:12 |
| TresEquis | wsgi lets you add in just the bits you need via middleware | 23:12 |
| TresEquis | and tweak | 23:12 |
| kosh | but for a zope 2 app what advantage do I have to switch to wsgi? | 23:12 |
| TresEquis | re-use of cool WSGI middleware | 23:12 |
| TresEquis | e.g., for debugging | 23:12 |
| TresEquis | you can evaluate expressions against stack variables, for instance | 23:13 |
| kosh | hmm debugging has not tended to be a problem for me, the error_log seems to cover what I have needed | 23:13 |
| TresEquis | z2 becomes "just another app", instead of a "does everything its own, different way" ghetto | 23:14 |
| TresEquis | error_log doesn't let you see the values of variables in the stack | 23:15 |
| kosh | I don't think I have run into a situation where that would have been useful | 23:16 |
| kosh | does sound interesting though | 23:17 |
| kosh | I mostly wondered if it was faster or used less memory | 23:18 |
| TresEquis | For instance, if your app is read-only, you can remove the transcation layer | 23:18 |
| TresEquis | so nothing ever gets commited, perios | 23:18 |
| TresEquis | or tweak the number of retries, or the kind of exceptions which cause them | 23:19 |
| TresEquis | (e.g., to deal w/ PostGres optimistic concurrency exceptions like ConflictErrors) | 23:19 |
| TresEquis | all of that policy is in middleware layers, instead of welded into the server | 23:19 |
| kosh | ah | 23:19 |
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| kosh | I used postgres for a little bit for testing but for my app I wound that zeo + zope was faster, lower memory usage and more reliable then relstorage + zope | 23:20 |
| TresEquis | Main advantage of WSGI is sharing tooling w/ non-Zope apps | 23:20 |
| kosh | sometimes postgres would even stop working right for some reason | 23:21 |
| TresEquis | I wasn't thinking about relstorage: it does the mapping onto ConflictError in its guts | 23:21 |
| TresEquis | rather, "native" use of a PG adapter might raise a retry-able exception | 23:22 |
| TresEquis | see http://pypi.python.org/pypi/repoze.retry for an example | 23:24 |
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| J1m | TresEquis, | 23:27 |
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| J1m | TresEquis, do you like any pure-python wsgi servers? | 23:27 |
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| kosh | TresEquis: when do you want to auto retry an exception? | 23:38 |
| TresEquis | J1m, I use the paster defauilt until I move to mod_wsgi | 23:45 |
| TresEquis | kosh, same as retrying a ZODB ConflictError | 23:45 |
| TresEquis | PG (in some configurations, at least) has an isomorphic error | 23:46 |
| TresEquis | "you lost the optimistic concurrency race" | 23:46 |
| kosh | ah I don't seem to get many conflict errors, I worked pretty hard on my apps for that | 23:54 |
| kosh | only when I do a single large transaction like db migration stuff on a live server | 23:54 |
| kosh | what I want to do is figure out a way with jquery to have it hit the same url over and over again with a progress meter that will do batches and stop when it gets a certain value back | 23:55 |
| kosh | so that way if you had 10K items to update you could do it in batches of 100 | 23:55 |
| kosh | the problem is you would have a lot of little transaction that way but at least conflicts would be much harder to happen with that | 23:56 |
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