IRC log of #zope for Monday, 2011-05-09

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CIA-83jim * r121630 /ZODB/branches/jim-python-btrees:13:53
CIA-83jim jim-python-btrees * r121631 ZODB/src/BTrees/ ( checkpoint13:53
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CIA-83andreasjung * r121632 zopeorg.buildout/ fixed bootstrap script15:43
CIA-83andreasjung * r121633 zopeorg.buildout/buildout.cfg: new port-base15:43
CIA-83andreasjung * r121634 zopeorg.buildout/buildout.cfg: new port-base15:43
CIA-83andreasjung * r121635 /zopeorg.buildout/branches/ added15:43
CIA-83andreasjung * r121636 zopeorg.buildout/ (973 files in 241 dirs): ADDED15:43
CIA-83andreasjung * r121637 zopeorg.buildout/lib: opps15:43
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CIA-83andreasjung * r121638 zopeorg.buildout/bin: removed16:28
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sp0cksbeardmcdonc: I'm looking at wsgi servers to use with one of our applications. do you have any recommendations regarding ones to use?19:14
sp0cksbeardJ1m mentioned (offline) that you may have looked at some in the past. I read some of the repoze.bfg docs that talk of ZServer19:15
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CIA-83andreasjung * r121640 zopeorg.buildout/buildout.cfg: Products.PloneHotfix2011072020:25
CIA-83jens * r121641 zopeorg.buildout/buildout.cfg: - restrict to localhost20:25
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runyagaTresEquis, ?22:29
TresEquisrunyaga, hmm?22:30
runyagaanyone see zope branch sans acquisition?22:30
runyagaany thoughts on zope/cmf w/o acquisition?22:30
TresEquisnot interesting22:31
TresEquisI've seen checkin messages for the branch22:31
TresEquisI *like* acquisition22:31
TresEquisfor what I use it for22:31
runyaga__parent__ could not replace it?22:32
TresEquisnot for what I use it for22:32
runyagawhat are you using it for?22:32
TresEquisto acquire attributes (settings) from parent containers22:32
TresEquisI don't see a point in trying to factor it out of Zope222:32
TresEquisjust start over22:33
runyagawhat about making it explicit?22:34
davisagliI was just going to say that. I'd like to see implicit acquisition die in a fire22:34
TresEquiswhat do you think it is costing you?  And why do you thing Z2 has any value at all w/o it?22:35
TresEquisStable, backward-compatibility for existing apps *is* the value proposition22:35
TresEquisdoing anything radically new on top of Z2 is clinically insane22:35
TresEquisjust use pyramid ;)22:36
davisagliI guess I should be more specific. I'd like for Plone to have a way to opt out of implicit acquisition.  and I'd like to be able to experiment with running Plone on Python interpreters that don't support C extensions.22:38
runyagaand that cant happen w/o massive changes22:39
TresEquisdavisagli, just don't derived from it22:42
davisagliTresEquis: if we get Zope2 setting up __parent__ pointers correctly, that's probably sufficient22:43
TresEquisyou'll have to fix the thousands of places which expect to acquire stuff, but there is no majyk bullet for that22:43
TresEquisz2 already does22:43
davisaglioh, really? I missed that22:43
TresEquisor at least, z2 understands them22:43
davisaglithat's different22:44
TresEquisthe container is responsible for setting them22:44
davisagliright. and OFS doesn't22:44
TresEquisagain, you control horizontal and vertical22:44
TresEquisWhy would you be using OFS?22:44
TresEquisJust Say No22:44
davisagliTresEquis: well, we do *shrug*22:44
koshI like acquisition a lot22:44
TresEquisyou already have your own folder implementation:  just change it to set __parent__ on items22:45
koshhowever __parent__ pointers apparently massively slows down copying and exports22:45
koshsomething to do with how the pickles work22:46
davisagliTresEquis: yeah, that might work now that plone.folder is in core. last time I thought about this much was in Plone 3 days.22:46
koshI was reading a thread on that in plone and they undid the changes and now are just setting __parent__ for temp type objects22:46
davisaglikosh: the problem was that Zope2 follows parent pointers when exporting ZEXP you would end up exporting the entire db when you just wanted one folder. that can probably be resolved though22:47
koshso settings __parent__ by default has some pretty bad consequences22:47
koshdavisagli: also does it when copying since copy and pasteing to a different part of a zope site uses the same mechanism22:47
koshhowever until it is resolved setting __parent__ for all items can be crippling22:47
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J1mTresEquis, do you have any recent opinions on which wsgi servers are best for production?23:04
TresEquismod_wsgi is that we use23:04
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J1msp0cksbeard, ^^^ :)23:06
TresEquisfixing export / import likely requires wrapping __setstate__ to ignore __parent__ attributes23:06
koshI ended up dumping apache a while ago and moved to nginx, no idea how well it does wsgi though23:06
sp0cksbeardJ1m: , TresEquis: thanks :-)23:06
koshbut under load with the proxy balancer in apache I found that it would screw up requests23:06
koshsometimes it would serve the data to the wrong person23:07
koshthe bug report for that keeps being opened and closed again23:07
koshit was the weirdest thing but sometimes instead of the html for the page you would get an image back that was supposed to be served to someone else and vice versa23:07
koshso now I run 4 zopes behind nginx and 1 zeo on a rackspace cloud server and that works extremely well23:08
koshwhat would wsgi change about that? slower, faster etc23:08
J1mI don't understand the last comment. We use wsgi for everything now.  Either ZTK or bobo.23:09
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koshjust wondered what advantage wsgi has over regular zserver and proxy to it23:10
TresEquiskosh, zserver does too much for many apps23:12
TresEquiswsgi lets you add in just the bits you need via middleware23:12
TresEquisand tweak23:12
koshbut for a zope 2 app what advantage do I have to switch to wsgi?23:12
TresEquisre-use of cool WSGI middleware23:12
TresEquise.g., for debugging23:12
TresEquisyou can evaluate expressions against stack variables, for instance23:13
koshhmm debugging has not tended to be a problem for me, the error_log seems to cover what I have needed23:13
TresEquisz2 becomes "just another app", instead of a "does everything its own, different way" ghetto23:14
TresEquiserror_log doesn't let you see the values of variables in the stack23:15
koshI don't think I have run into a situation where that would have been useful23:16
koshdoes sound interesting though23:17
koshI mostly wondered if it was faster or used less memory23:18
TresEquisFor instance, if your app is read-only, you can remove the transcation layer23:18
TresEquisso nothing ever gets commited, perios23:18
TresEquisor tweak the number of retries, or the kind of exceptions which cause them23:19
TresEquis(e.g., to deal w/ PostGres optimistic concurrency exceptions like ConflictErrors)23:19
TresEquisall of that policy is in middleware layers, instead of welded into the server23:19
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koshI used postgres for a little bit for testing but for my app I wound that zeo + zope was faster, lower memory usage and more reliable then relstorage + zope23:20
TresEquisMain advantage of WSGI is sharing tooling w/ non-Zope apps23:20
koshsometimes postgres would even stop working right for some reason23:21
TresEquisI wasn't thinking about relstorage:  it does the mapping onto ConflictError in its guts23:21
TresEquisrather, "native" use of a PG adapter might raise a retry-able exception23:22
TresEquissee for an example23:24
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J1mTresEquis, do you like any pure-python wsgi servers?23:27
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koshTresEquis: when do you want to auto retry an exception?23:38
TresEquisJ1m, I use the paster defauilt until I move to mod_wsgi23:45
TresEquiskosh, same as retrying a ZODB ConflictError23:45
TresEquisPG (in some configurations, at least) has an isomorphic error23:46
TresEquis"you lost the optimistic concurrency race"23:46
koshah I don't seem to get many conflict errors, I worked pretty hard on my apps for that23:54
koshonly when I do a single large transaction like db migration stuff on a live server23:54
koshwhat I want to do is figure out a way with jquery to have it hit the same url over and over again with a progress meter that will do batches and stop when it gets a certain value back23:55
koshso that way if you had 10K items to update you could do it in batches of 10023:55
koshthe problem is you would have a lot of little transaction that way but at least conflicts would be much harder to happen with that23:56

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