IRC log of #zope for Thursday, 2011-05-26

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betabugrostayob: your paste looks like it's something for #pyramid, not #zope00:05
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CIA-107jinty * r121795 zope.testbrowser/ (CHANGES.txt prepare release02:12
CIA-107jinty * r121796 /zope.testbrowser/tags/4.0.2: Tagging 4.0.202:12
CIA-107jinty * r121797 zope.testbrowser/ (CHANGES.txt back to development02:12
CIA-107jim jim-python-btrees * r121798 ZODB/ (13 files in 3 dirs): checkpoint02:12
CIA-107janwijbrand * r121799 megrok.login/ (10 files in 2 dirs): use groktoolkit trunk versions, port to zope.testbrowser, remove z3c.testsetup dependency02:12
CIA-107janwijbrand * r121800 megrok.login/src/megrok/login/tests/ ( remove obsolete z3c.testsetup markers02:12
CIA-107janwijbrand * r121801 megrok.login/ (/ /src .): update bootstrap.py02:12
CIA-107janwijbrand * r121802 megrok.login/CHANGES.txt: update changelog02:12
CIA-107janwijbrand * r121803 megrok.login/ this will not be a mere bugfix release02:12
CIA-107jfroche * r121804 /Products.GenericSetup/branches/localutility-with-nested-path: prepare02:12
CIA-107jfroche localutility-with-nested-path * r121805 Products.GenericSetup/Products/GenericSetup/ enable support for nested local utilities02:12
CIA-107janwijbrand * r121806 /groktoolkit/branches/jw-integrate-megrok.login-megrok.chameleon: Integrate megrok.login and megrok.chameleon02:12
CIA-107janwijbrand jw-integrate-megrok.login-megrok.chameleon * r121807 groktoolkit/ (grok.cfg buildout.cfg): integrate megrok.login and megrok.chameleon. megrok.login needs a checkout still, as its fixes are not yet released02:12
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sobczykis it possible to mix storage backends in zope3? (ie. RDBMS, ZODB, LDAP)03:06
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r0verhello. I'm getting a search result using zope.catalog's apply method. If the result is not empty that method gives a list of catalog ids', do you know how may i get the object using such id ?06:39
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r0verok, found it: from zope import component ; from zope.intid.interfaces import IIntIds; uidutil = component.getUtility(IIntIds) ; uidutil.getObject( uid )07:01
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CIA-89yuppie * r121808 zopetoolkit/ztk-sources.cfg: - use ZODB/branches/3.10 to make the tests pass10:01
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betabugsobczyk: if you use different mount points, it should be no problem10:06
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koshbetabug: so how are things going?10:55
betabughey kosh10:55
betabugfine, auite busy10:55
koshI created some cool code for jquery ui tabs, I created an alternate url with data-url="someotherurl"  and when I generate the tabs I swap that url for the one in the href10:56
betabugand it's summer now - at least almost as hot as it gets10:56
koshthat way if JS is off or if a search engine hits it will get a normal full url that has a full wrapper and everything10:57
koshbut if a browser hits and loads the tabs the url will be swapped to one that does a page fragment10:57
koshso I don't have to render the header, footer, other stuff and just return the fragment10:57
koshI can also give the fragments a unique url so they cache very nicely :)10:57
koshmost of the js methods I looked at involved rendering the entire page and then selecting just the fragment you want as what you put in the tab10:58
koshthis method is VASTLY faster10:58
koshso I am pretty happy with how it has turned out10:59
koshI have been doing a lot to makes my pages faster via better caching11:00
koshwhat I wish though is that html just had a feature so that any element could have a src11:00
betabugI fought a hard fight with that norwegian site the last few days11:00
koshthen you could just put a src for a div etc and it would be able to cache normally11:00
koshI have gotten many sites down to 3 requests or so for a cached version11:01
koshdown from 30 or so for many of them11:01
koshso pages load faster on additional pages and the server has lower load :)11:02
koshwhich means that it responds faster11:02
koshversioned urls are such a great thing11:02
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koshI wonder what it would take to build versioned urls into zope, probably not very hard11:11
betabugkosh: I thought you already had a product for that?11:11
koshit is too bad that other systems don't do it, it makes it easy to do the right thing for making pages faster11:11
koshyeah I do have a product for that11:11
koshI was thinking more along the lines of making it so any container object in zope could generate a versioned url for an item in it11:11
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betabughmm, right11:12
betabugwell, but that's one thing that would be easy to do with acquisition11:12
koshit is just that if it is built into the containers then it would be possible to patch it in instead of a seperate product11:12
koshwhich could get it accepted11:12
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koshon one site a full load is 1.5 seconds but a cached load and subsequent pages are .5 seconds :)11:14
koshwhat I have been trying to do is make tools so that when we build websites they are super cache friendly by default without any additional work needed to make that happen11:17
koshif you require additional work then the work just does not get done11:17
koshone site is sad, one of the tracking companies a customer of ours is using won't configure their servers to compress the data they send for the tracking script or do any kind of caching11:19
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koshso on a cached page load that script is the #1 source of bandwidth usage and slowdowns11:19
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j-wkosh: you mean for page resources?11:32
j-wlike js and images etc.?11:33
j-wyou might want to look at fanstatic11:33
j-wthat does that + resource dependency management11:33
koshI generate unique urls now for css, js, images, favicon11:33
j-wit is an evolution from zc.resourcelibrary and hurry.resource11:34
j-wit does bundling too11:34
j-wand work is on its way to facilitate compression/minification-like things11:35
koshI do all compression in nginx already11:35
koshhmm fanstatic looks like it is a lot more complex then what I need a lot more of a pain to integrate into what we do11:38
koshI don't have anything resembling a single location that all images are stored11:38
koshthey are part of whatever the products etc are11:38
koshand I have the urls so that they update whenever the object changes so no shift-reload on any of my stuff anymore anyways11:38
koshwith zope generating a versioned url is pretty easy, just use the bobobase_modification_time11:39
koshit is an interesting library but it looks like it would require vastly more work for me to use something like that11:40
j-wkosh: you do not need a single location at all11:40
j-wyou can just define the resources in the products they belong to, np11:40
koshit mostly looks like a lot of work11:41
j-wand the shoft-reload-problem is *exactly* what is solves11:41
koshI don't have that problem though11:41
j-wit doesn't too me :-)11:41
j-wanyway, I just wanted to point it out11:41
j-wto prevent double work11:41
koshwhenever a customer goes into the webpage and uploads a new image a new url is generated11:41
j-wchoose to tools you like to use :-)11:41
j-wfor enduser-controlled-images, fanstatic might not be so useful indeed11:44
j-wI thought you meant more "static" resources11:44
koshwell I consider user generated images to be static also since for all practical purposes they are11:44
koshonce they uplaod an image it is static until they upload another one11:44
kosha versioned urls works great for that11:44
koshbut integrating that with fanstatic looks like a lot of work11:45
koshthere is no real good reason that uploading an image by the client should not get an indefinite url also that changes whenever the image does11:46
koshit makes it very cache friendly and does not cause any issues and it also means you have no shift-reload problems ever while also having indefinite caching11:46
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CIA-89janwijbrand * r121809 megrok.login/ (4 files in 3 dirs): cleanups12:21
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CIA-89janwijbrand * r121810 groktoolkit/grok.cfg: add megrok.chameleon to the GTK13:13
CIA-89janwijbrand * r121811 grokproject/CHANGES.txt: amend changelog13:13
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humanfromearthhi, does anyone know any benchmark packages for Zope2?14:24
koshwhat do you mean?14:32
* lewellyn hands kosh some marshmallows14:32
koshstuff like ab, siege etc works on any web server14:33
lewellynoh btw, you were mentioning caching earlier. which web server do you have sitting in front of zope?14:33
koshlewellyn: I have nginx sitting in front of zope14:34
koshalso the caching I was talking about was client side caching14:34
lewellynah ok.14:34
koshgenerate a versioned url and set an insane timeout on it14:34
lewellyni've been having a hell of a time getting nginx to cache proxy responses :(14:34
koshso instead of /css you do /ver_123141231/css and change the number whenever the css changes14:34
lewellyni also have yet to figure out the magic of fastcgi with zope14:34
koshI just use regular proxy to to zope no fastcgi, wsgi etc14:35
lewellynyeah. my idea is to have expires times set 15 minutes in the future, so that's the longest something will go stale.14:35
lewellynyeah. i'm trying to reduce overhead, so i was hoping to drag medusa out of the picture.14:35
koshI have my images, files, js, css, and favicon set to cache forever now on most things14:35
koshthe url will just change if the content changes14:35
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lewellynyeah. i'm not big on those urls. i'll stay with "go get some coffee and it'll update itself" ;)14:36
koshthose urls massively speed up the page and take me no effort to deal with14:36
koshit also means when content changes the data immediately changes14:36
lewellynbut my big goal atm is to try to get zope to serve as little as possible14:37
koshso if I change the css file everyone will see it instantly14:37
lewellynwhich means getting nginx to actually cache the responses from zope14:37
koshhmm my pages load in .5 seconds usually so zope does not seem to be a major source of speed issues14:37
lewellynnice side effect is that by eating the cookies, it's not obviously zope. (i have little need for sessions and stuff, for this site)14:37
koshmost of the page load time was all the resources being loaded14:38
lewellynwell, i can only handle a dozen or so simultaneous requests on the home page.14:38
koshso if you have 80 images on a page by default everyone one of those images will be checked and find out it has not changed14:38
koshsame with the css and javascript14:38
lewellynwhich is an improvement over the 1-3 +/- we used to be at :P14:38
koshhaving to generate that css and javascript also makes things slower14:38
koshyou can realy make zope far faster with client side caching14:39
lewellynyeah. i want nginx to handle that aspect.14:39
lewellyn"i've checked the backend within 15 minutes for that. here. it's fresh enough."14:39
koshnot the same though14:39
koshsince the browser will make the request14:39
koshand that will slow it down14:39
lewellynyeah. but not as much as zope responding instead :)14:40
lewellynloading it all from disk/ram is far faster than waking things up constantly14:40
kosheven if you make your server a million times faster the client is going to run slower then if it can cache the data14:41
lewellynit can cache the data. most of the data's pretty static.14:41
lewellyna 304 is far better than a 200 any day, and right now, that's far better than it's been at for the past like 8+ years14:41
koshso how do you set the caching of your images so the browser when it comes back a week later does not load all that data again but still make it so that when the data changes they will see it?14:42
kosh304 is still a large speed penalty14:42
lewellyn(i just discovered some days ago that it ALWAYS responded with a 200, period, and disabled caching.)14:42
koshthat does not seem right14:42
koshthe default image object in zope has done 304 for at least 6 years14:42
lewellyn304 isn't a huge speed penalty when you're asking for a half dozen objects, thanks to pipelining.14:42
lewellynthere was a design decision made at some point14:43
lewellynand i don't have the information available from back then to figure out why14:43
humanfromearthkosh: 'instead of /css you do /ver_123141231/css' - have you ever heard of etags?14:43
lewellynof course, back then, a "back" button on every page was a good idea.14:43
koshhowever a 304 still has a fairly major speed penalty14:43
koshhumanfromearth: the entire point is to make a unique url that will never change and is cached forever without any checking back from the browser, etags do not even remotely solve that problem14:44
lewellynkosh: my testing from across the internet indicates that returning a bunch of 304s is faster than waiting for the javascript to initialize14:44
koshan etag still means that a browser will revalidate14:44
lewellyni.e. it's pretty much instant in ie 10 (which atm is the fastest browser i have available, amusingly)14:44
lewellyni really need to pop open wireshark later to see what trickery they're doing to their page loads14:45
koshlewellyn: ah I did some testing and used the chromium inspect feature and the network tab and watched how long various resoucres took to load vs having it cached locally with no connection at all14:45
lewellyneven TWITTER is pretty much instant to load14:45
lewellynkosh: yeah. it's only a few ms for the 304s when pipelined.14:45
koshnot a clue about that, I have no way to test IE 1014:46
koshif your connection is low latency enough, if you have a cell connection or any kind of mobile device the penalty can be very high14:46
CIA-89janwijbrand * r121812 grok/ (CHANGES.txt Preparing release 1.714:46
CIA-89janwijbrand * r121813 /grok/tags/1.7: Tagging 1.714:46
CIA-89janwijbrand * r121814 grok/ (CHANGES.txt Back to development: 1.814:46
CIA-89janwijbrand * r121815 groktoolkit/grok.cfg: use grok-1.7 that correctly configures and includes the global_adapter directive14:46
CIA-89janwijbrand * r121816 grokproject/ (CHANGES.txt Preparing release 2.614:46
CIA-89janwijbrand * r121817 /grokproject/tags/2.6: Tagging 2.614:46
CIA-89janwijbrand * r121818 grokproject/ (CHANGES.txt Back to development: 2.714:46
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lewellynand the client has very clearly stated that if a resource is updated, it needs to never have the old version ever available again.14:46
lewellynum. with my cell phone, it's only about 150ms to load the page of all 304's14:47
koshmy system does not have an old version ever available14:47
lewellyn180 if i'm tethered via wifi to my phone, due to the crappy wifi router built in14:47
koshbut the client can upload a new image and everyone will see it instantly14:47
koshno delay of any kind14:47
koshand still forever caching14:47
lewellynso somehow your pages still hit a server for a 304 somewhere14:48
waldidoes nginx cache at all? it is a reverse proxy, but i miss the word cache from the description14:49
waldii prefer vanish to do aggresive caching for zope applications14:50
humanfromearthkosh: you can use etags caching on the server side.. it is still better than changing the url's - url's are immutable imho14:50
koshhumanfromearth: that urls are immutable is the point14:50
lewellyndoes varnish also serve static content?14:50
koshhumanfromearth: so that /ver_1231231231/css is not the same as /ver_456345645/css   so since the url on the page changes the browser will request it14:50
koshhumanfromearth: etag caching requires checking back to the server so you have the round trip cost14:51
lewellynand again, since practically everything does http pipelining these days, i don't see the savings being worth the obfuscation and extra development work.14:52
koshthe work was done once, it applied retroactively to every site I have made in the last 8 years14:52
koshno code had to be changed on them14:52
waldivarnish is a caching reverse proxy. it have nothing to do with producing content14:53
humanfromearthso changing urls in your templates is better? I think it's 'saner' to let the server decide how to do this - not solve the problem in my templates14:53
lewellynwaldi: that makes it unsuitable as i use the front-ends for serving static content, as well.14:53
lewellyni find that things like 100 meg pdfs are better stored on the filesystem than in the zodb *shrug*14:54
koshfor my testing I had 1.4 seconds for a site over the internet  with 304s and .8 seconds with caching so that no hits come in at all14:54
koshwhy would you store a blob like that in the zodb anyways, we do have blob support and that will just stream from the filesystem very efficiently14:54
waldilewellyn: i have about 25GiB of data in zodb. 20 of them in for of blobs14:55
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koshhumanfromearth: why do you think I would manually change any of those urls? they are all auto generated14:55
waldilewellyn: varnish is a proxy. noone said that it can only handle _one_ backend14:55
koshhumanfromearth: picture objects generate their img src lines so all you change is how it generates the src and it is done for all sites permanently14:55
koshhumanfromearth: there is no change at all for someone writing the site, they don't see any of it14:55
koshI can't even imagine writing an img src line by hand14:56
koshyou would have to know the size of the image and everything14:56
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koshwith an image object when an image is uploaded I resize it if necessary, always recompress it and that object will generate the url so it always has the right height and width14:57
kosheven the regular zope image object generates the img src line14:58
humanfromearthso how do you integrate this with zope?14:58
humanfromearthI'm not aware of this functionality in it14:58
humanfromearthdo you have an annotation for each ImageFile?14:59
koshwell it generates urls already inside images so I modified it with what I needed to version the urls14:59
koshI also have a regular product that can be used to create versioned urls for any object14:59
humanfromearthI see14:59
koshannotation? no idea what you mean for that14:59
koshmy objects have an OFS.Image.File in them or OFS.Image.Image in them and I change how I generate the url to those images, I use a regular product for css, js, favicons etc15:01
humanfromearthyou're method is unorthodox and it's not very pretty, but I must admit that it would solve a lot of caching validation problems15:03
koshwhy do you say it is not pretty? even google has a suggestion for that on one of their pagespeed sites15:03
koshthey heavily recommended versioned urls15:03
betabugeven plone has been doing it for ages15:04
koshsince /css?ver=123142342 does not properly cache in all browsers but /ver_2342342/css will cache in everything15:04
koshbetabug: not for everything though, images it does not seem to do it for15:04
humanfromearthwell it breaks the whole idea of what an url means15:04
koshhumanfromearth: how does it break the url? that url goes to that unique resource, if you want to serve a different resource you use a different url15:04
koshyou do the same thing with a CDN15:05
koshif you delete data on a CDN and then add new data with the same name as the old entry you create a lot of problems15:05
koshI don't get why this is seen as so strange and novel, it is very rare but then again any kind of competence in the web is very rare15:06
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koshon one page I tested a page full of 304s when from 1.6 seconds to .4 seconds with all pure cached and no hits15:07
koshexcept the main html for the page which was not cached15:07
koshbetabug: it is very depressing that so few people understand this15:08
betabugdunno, I never cache my pages... if people are not prepared to wait for the page, then they don't deserve to see it!!15:10
koshit makes the pages faster which does help with business15:10
koshit also lowers server load15:11
koshand my method of doing it was so simple15:11
koshit is fully automatic15:11
koshso it caches cleanly and does not require the dev to do squat15:11
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lewellynit'd surely break hotlinks to images, though.15:34
koshacutally I leave the direct image links alone so they will still work they just won't cache forever15:36
koshso this functions as a pure additional system15:36
koshso /css for instance will sitll work just not be cached forever like /ver_3214234234/css  would  same for images15:37
lewellynso if someone right clicks to get the image url, it'll keep working?15:37
koshif they just copy the image url they would get the versioned url and while that url will keep working depending on when people first hit that url they could easily get different images15:38
koshhowever I have no reason to encourage people to use my sites to host images on their sites15:38
lewellynwell, in this case, marketing includes site images in their emails15:38
koshthe problem would be if a browser sees that url and they have never seen it before they will request an image if that image is later changed the browser would not check again15:39
lewellynand training marketing people to remember an extra step beyond what's obvious is bad :P15:39
lewellynyeah. that'd be unacceptable in this case...15:39
koshif you are sending out marketing information you would not want to send out image links that are changing quickly anyways15:39
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lewellynsince more than once there's been an "oh shit" where art assets had to be reuploaded just after the email was sent15:40
koshso you would have an image on the site and send out a link to it in your emails and then change that image during the marketing campaign?15:40
koshthat seems like a very silly thing to do15:40
lewellynlike a package mockup missing the ESRB RP logo, for instance.15:40
koshhowever none of our customers uses the front end to get information like that, they use the backend15:40
koshand the backend would give them a non versioned url which would do exactly what you want15:41
lewellynand in this case, there's no reason for most of the employees to see the backend.15:41
lewellynsure most have logins and i encourage them to log in to fix typos and stuff. but most of them have zero need to.15:42
lewellyn(official policy is just short of "have a meeting about it" whenever something is amiss, even an obvious typo. as an outsider, i can foster dissent... ;) )15:42
koshthe official policy for most companies I have worked with that want to put images in emails and things like that is to put the file up on s3 and use that url15:44
lewellynthey like control *shrug*15:46
koshand them uploading it to their s3 account on amazon would not be control?15:47
koshwhile also making those images in the emails load faster15:47
lewellynwell, it'd be extra steps to correct one of those "oh shit" things15:49
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koshsome of our customers started finding that html emails have just not been getting through so what they have been doing instead is sending a much simpler email with a link to the website and then that always works15:51
koshand it was far less likely to be blocked as spam15:51
lewellynin this case, customers complain if the email is late. it's VERY opt in15:52
lewellynso being flagged as spam isn't a concern15:52
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lewellyn(and the emails are much more "legit looking" than the average mass mail, due to an accident of history)15:53
koshthe emails our customers are sending are very opt in also15:53
koshbut it doesn't matter how legit something is with everyone running spam filters and false positives not being worth looking at15:53
lewellynthat's the thing. an accident of history has these emails not triggering most spam filters. every now and again, they have to tell someone to "add the address to safe senders"15:55
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CIA-89tseaver * r121819 zope.interface/ (4 files in 3 dirs):19:24
CIA-89Correct comparison of interfaces from different modules but with the same name.19:24
CIA-89Fixes LP #570942.19:24
CIA-89tseaver * r121820 zope.interface/ (CHANGES.txt Prep 3.6.3 release.19:24
CIA-89tseaver * r121821 /zope.interface/tags/3.6.3: Tag 3.6.3 release.19:24
CIA-89tseaver * r121822 zope.interface/ (CHANGES.txt svb19:24
_mup_Bug #570942: InterfaceClass __cmp method obtains module name incorrectly <zope.interface:Fix Released> < >19:24
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zentraediHi everyone!22:54
zentraediI was trying to install and got this error22:57
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