IRC log of #zope for Thursday, 2011-10-06

*** menesis has quit IRC00:03
*** TresEquis has quit IRC00:09
*** avoinea has joined #zope00:22
*** do3cc has joined #zope00:26
*** purserj has joined #zope00:29
*** __mac__ has quit IRC00:35
*** avoinea has quit IRC00:37
*** davisagli has quit IRC00:46
*** davisagli has joined #zope00:47
*** ccomb has quit IRC01:07
*** ccomb has joined #zope01:07
*** J1m_ has quit IRC01:28
*** do3cc has quit IRC01:34
*** alga has quit IRC01:44
*** alexpilz1 has joined #zope01:47
*** alexpilz has quit IRC01:48
*** ajsmith has quit IRC01:50
*** TomBlockley has joined #zope01:56
*** do3cc has joined #zope01:57
*** Arfrever has joined #zope01:58
*** do3cc has quit IRC02:00
*** rogererens has quit IRC02:00
*** do3cc has joined #zope02:00
*** hever has quit IRC02:06
*** supton has quit IRC02:09
*** dayne has joined #zope02:19
*** [Arfrever] has joined #zope02:22
*** RichardBarrell has quit IRC02:26
*** do3cc has quit IRC02:27
*** do3cc has joined #zope02:27
*** do3cc has quit IRC02:34
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope02:41
*** do3cc has joined #zope02:50
*** do3cc has quit IRC02:52
*** do3cc has joined #zope02:52
*** _mup_ has quit IRC03:00
*** _mup_ has joined #zope03:00
*** do3cc has quit IRC03:00
*** do3cc has joined #zope03:00
*** mr_jolly_ has joined #zope03:28
*** mr_jolly has quit IRC03:32
*** mr_jolly_ is now known as mr_jolly03:32
*** mr_jolly has quit IRC03:34
*** ccomb has quit IRC03:37
*** TomBlockley has quit IRC03:41
*** tiwula has quit IRC03:57
*** Raine has joined #zope04:23
*** Raine has left #zope04:24
*** do3cc has quit IRC05:41
*** tiwula has joined #zope06:01
*** zenwryly has quit IRC06:54
*** zenwryly has joined #zope06:56
*** tiwula has quit IRC07:20
*** Arfrever has quit IRC07:22
*** ajmitch has quit IRC07:29
*** ajmitch has joined #zope07:29
*** ajmitch has joined #zope07:29
*** do3cc has joined #zope07:38
*** febb has joined #zope07:56
*** __mac__ has joined #zope07:59
*** dayne has quit IRC08:36
*** do3cc has quit IRC08:38
*** do3cc has joined #zope08:39
*** febb has quit IRC08:40
*** do3cc has quit IRC08:52
*** __mac__ has quit IRC09:00
*** agroszer has joined #zope09:20
*** __mac__ has joined #zope09:40
*** alexpilz1 has quit IRC09:51
*** rogererens has joined #zope10:02
*** planetzopebot has quit IRC10:08
*** planetzopebot has joined #zope10:08
*** ldlework has joined #zope10:10
ldleworkI was wondering if anyone knew of any relational layers that go ontop of ZODB10:10
ldleworkOr an ORM10:10
ldleworkor schema migration layers10:10
ldleworkIf there's any of those10:11
betabugldlework: I think you have some misunderstanding there about ZODB10:11
betabugyou don't need that stuff10:11
*** MrWu has joined #zope10:11
ldleworkbetabug, nah I know that it is a key,val store10:11
betabugnope, it isn't10:11
ldleworkbetabug, but ZODB certainly needs schema migration stuff10:11
betabugit's a python object store10:11
ldleworkbetabug, that's what I meant, object store10:12
betabugnot the same at all as key,val10:12
ldleworkbetabug, yeah I got it, misspoke sorry10:12
ldleworkbetabug, certainly a schema migration solution is useful even with ZODB10:12
betabugthere is no schema10:12
betabugso there is no schema migration10:12
ldleworkbetabug, sure there is, the attribute list of the class10:12
betabugthat can change at any moment and the DB doesn't care10:13
betabugit will happily store your object (class instance) almost no matter what you do to it10:13
ldleworkbetabug, if I want to add a new attribute to an object in my store how do you go about doing that?10:15
betabugyou add it10:15
betabugif you do not work with Zope, there is a good introduction to the ZODB from Carlos de la Guardia10:17
betabugif you use Zope, you don't really need even that (but then you'll need to learn a whole lot of other stuff)10:17
ldleworkbetabug, right how do you add it?10:19
betabugstandard python syntax10:19
betabugmyobject.myattribute = 710:19
ldleworkbetabug, right but where do you put that?10:19
betabugin your application code10:19
ldleworkbetabug, dude, jesus10:19
betabugthere are lots of examples here:
ldleworkbetabug, what I do is have classes that represent the objects in my store. When I load up the OOBTree I loop through and create new instances of them, loading the value of each old attribute into the new instance10:20
ldleworkbetabug, for new attributes on the class that don't exist in the old instance, I have a special method that provides a default10:21
ldleworkthen I override the object in the store with the new instance, including newly initialized attributes10:21
ldleworkbetabug, this is kind of a schema migration to me10:21
betabugwell, you probably don't have to "override the object in the store", just setting that attribute will be enough10:22
betabuganyway, the answer is: ZODB doesn't do that for you, and I don't know of any software package that does that for you on ZODB10:22
*** menesis has joined #zope10:23
betabugit's generally assumed that your application will know best how to do this kind of migration10:23
*** zagy has joined #zope10:24
*** __mac__ has quit IRC10:25
bigkevmcdThe idea of a ZODB ORM is quite fun tho' :-)10:26
betabugyou'd need an OROM10:26
betabugsomething to translate your objects to relational data and then to ZODB objects10:27
*** do3cc has joined #zope10:27
*** MrWu has quit IRC10:28
*** MrWu has joined #zope10:30
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope10:32
*** do3cc has quit IRC10:37
*** do3cc has joined #zope10:38
*** menesis has quit IRC10:41
*** menesis has joined #zope10:42
*** do3cc has quit IRC10:45
*** alexpilz has joined #zope10:45
*** do3cc has joined #zope10:48
*** do3cc has quit IRC11:02
*** MrWu has quit IRC11:05
*** MrWu has joined #zope11:06
*** avoinea has joined #zope11:10
*** sunew has joined #zope11:10
*** zagy has quit IRC11:12
*** goschtl has joined #zope11:16
*** goschtl has quit IRC11:16
*** goschtl has joined #zope11:16
*** goschtl has joined #zope11:17
*** eperez has joined #zope11:19
*** eperez has quit IRC11:23
*** eperez has joined #zope11:23
*** __mac__ has joined #zope11:29
*** __mac__ has quit IRC11:34
*** ccomb has joined #zope11:36
*** menesis has quit IRC11:46
*** zagy has joined #zope11:49
*** TomBlockley has joined #zope12:01
*** TomBlockley has quit IRC12:02
*** mitchell`off is now known as mitchell`12:02
*** TomBlockley has joined #zope12:03
*** evilbungle has joined #zope12:05
*** do3cc has joined #zope12:14
*** do3cc has quit IRC12:22
*** eperez has quit IRC12:25
*** regebro has quit IRC12:30
*** mr_jolly_ has joined #zope12:34
*** mr_jolly has quit IRC12:36
*** mr_jolly_ is now known as mr_jolly12:36
*** zagy has quit IRC12:50
*** __mac__ has joined #zope12:52
*** eperez has joined #zope12:53
*** d2m has joined #zope12:53
*** teix has joined #zope12:56
*** menesis has joined #zope13:19
*** __mac__ has quit IRC13:25
*** alga has joined #zope13:31
*** sunew has quit IRC13:32
*** zagy has joined #zope13:34
*** avoinea has quit IRC13:35
*** avoinea has joined #zope13:39
*** zagy has quit IRC13:47
*** __mac__ has joined #zope13:48
*** hever has joined #zope13:51
*** hever has quit IRC13:54
*** hever has joined #zope13:57
*** runyaga_ has joined #zope14:07
*** thetet has joined #zope14:08
*** runyaga has quit IRC14:10
*** J1m_ has joined #zope14:17
*** zagy has joined #zope14:18
*** thetet has quit IRC14:29
*** thetet has joined #zope14:29
*** ldlework has quit IRC14:30
*** RaceCondition has joined #zope14:34
*** J1m_ has quit IRC14:35
*** regebro has joined #zope14:38
*** dayne has joined #zope14:41
*** MrWu has quit IRC14:55
*** zagy has quit IRC14:55
*** __mac__ has quit IRC14:57
*** zagy has joined #zope15:02
*** goschtl_ has joined #zope15:16
*** goschtl has quit IRC15:17
*** goschtl_ is now known as goschtl15:17
koshhail insane people15:24
betabughey kosh15:25
koshbetabug: my objects have version numbers and have upgrades15:26
koshbetabug: but I don't replace old objects with new ones, I just make the minimal changes necessary to convert15:26
koshso I don't have as many writes15:26
koshand where possible I just add a new attribute as a class attribute that way all things get some new default but anything can override it15:27
koshalso class defaults save a LOT of space15:27
koshI found over 90% of objects are mostly using various default by usually have 1 or 2 things different15:27
koshso with this method only 1 or 2 things are stored instead of 10 or more15:28
betabugyeah, I agree15:28
koshcool my new hard drive gets delivered today15:28
koshhad a drive fail in one of my servers15:29
betabugI think the main point was that ldlework was confused about what zodb is or isn't15:29
koshyeah it is a different kind of database15:29
koshif you understand it though it can be extremely powerful and fast15:30
koshthe thing about not all objects stored having to store the same information or store all attributes is massively powerful15:30
koshbetabug: so how is your country doing? has it thrown out capitalism yet?15:34
betabugnope, still in the throngs of the big speculators15:35
koshhurry up and throw those aholes out15:35
koshjapan is still in a recession after over 20 years of austerity measures15:35
koshthey won't work15:35
koshausterity measures do not fix an economy15:36
betabugthere isn't much economy left here15:39
*** zagy has quit IRC15:46
koshbetabug: so just bite the bullet and throw out what is left and make a new one15:47
koshgo for a resource based economy15:48
koshsomething nice and modern15:48
*** dAnjou has joined #zope15:51
*** dAnjou has left #zope15:55
koshbetabug: if that system does not appeal to you just appoint me overlord of your country and I will fix it :)15:57
betabugit does indeed appeal to me and a lot of people, but currently we live in something like a police dictature15:58
betabugthe constitution is overruled daily, etc.15:58
koshconstitutions seem to be thrown out whenever inconvenient16:02
*** J1m_ has joined #zope16:07
betabugeven APIs are more stable these days16:07
*** yvl has joined #zope16:10
koshthis is why you shoudl just put me in charge16:13
koshI will run greece up the tech curve16:13
koshthe entire focus will be on technology and using it to create better lives16:13
koshno corporations at all16:13
koshit is not like I could do a worse job then your current government16:15
*** __mac__ has joined #zope16:23
*** dayne has quit IRC16:24
*** dayne has joined #zope16:25
*** ajkaanbal has joined #zope16:25
*** sp0cksbeard has joined #zope16:30
*** do3cc has joined #zope16:30
*** ajsmith has joined #zope16:31
*** __mac__ has quit IRC16:42
*** d2m has left #zope16:52
*** hever has quit IRC17:02
*** dayne has quit IRC17:03
*** do3cc has quit IRC17:20
*** alexpilz has quit IRC17:35
*** __mac__ has joined #zope17:45
*** bny has joined #zope17:45
*** bny has quit IRC17:52
*** bny has joined #zope17:52
*** do3cc has joined #zope17:53
*** tiwula has joined #zope17:54
*** yvl has quit IRC17:54
*** hever has joined #zope18:07
*** bny has quit IRC18:11
*** alexpilz has joined #zope18:32
*** goschtl has quit IRC18:39
*** eperez has quit IRC18:44
*** __mac__ has quit IRC18:49
*** do3cc has quit IRC18:51
*** do3cc has joined #zope18:51
*** supton has joined #zope18:54
*** do3cc has quit IRC18:56
*** eperez has joined #zope18:56
*** agroszer has quit IRC19:03
*** mcdonc has quit IRC19:07
*** mcdonc has joined #zope19:08
planetzopebotZope 2 as WSGI application (icemac)
*** avoinea has quit IRC19:11
*** RaceCondition has quit IRC19:21
*** __mac__ has joined #zope19:23
*** mr_jolly has quit IRC19:23
*** thetet has quit IRC19:28
*** RaceCondition has joined #zope19:28
*** Spanktar has joined #zope19:34
*** hever has quit IRC19:35
*** m8 has joined #zope19:46
*** agroszer has joined #zope20:06
*** menesis has quit IRC20:15
*** Spanktar is now known as spanky|away20:18
*** agroszer has quit IRC20:22
*** evilbungle has quit IRC20:26
*** evilbungle has joined #zope20:26
*** __mac__ has quit IRC20:28
*** eperez has quit IRC20:29
*** evilbungle has quit IRC20:30
*** TomBlockley has quit IRC20:32
*** J1m_ has left #zope20:36
*** J1m_ has joined #zope20:36
*** regebro has quit IRC20:48
*** mejo has joined #zope20:48
mejohow does zope handle namespace collisions with eggs?20:49
mejowhile trying to build zope packages for debian, I discovered that two eggs with the same namespace (i.e. and create a namespace collision.20:52
mejothe zope application doesn't find any but the first egg, as it occupies the namespace
*** evilbungle has joined #zope20:57
koshno idea on that one I have not run into it20:59
*** runyaga_ has quit IRC21:00
*** menesis has joined #zope21:04
*** RaceCondition has quit IRC21:13
*** RaceCondition has joined #zope21:15
mejomcdonc: thanks. does zope2 install procedure install/create those namespace packages?21:22
mcdoncmejo: it's a "python thing" rather than a "zope thing"21:23
mcdoncthe packages exist as namespace packages by virtue of having the hair in described in that link21:23
mejosure, but zope is the application that installs all the eggs into a virtualenv.21:23
mcdoncthat'd instead be one of easy_install, pip, or buildout21:24
mcdonczope is the thing being installed21:24
mcdoncbut it doesnt do the installing21:24
mejoyes, but it declares the dependencies21:25
mcdoncthat it does21:25
mejoso the installation app (easy_install, pip, buildout) takes care of creating namespace packages where required?21:25
mcdoncno.. those things dont "create" namespace packages.. they just install them.. a package either is or isn't a namespace package21:26 and are namespace packages21:26
mcdoncterminology is pretty loose here which can be confusing21:27
mcdoncin reality, the thing you download from e.g. pypi called is a *distribution*21:28
mcdoncbut commonly people call them packages, which is technically not correct21:28
mcdoncbecause python already has a concept of a package separate from that21:28
mcdonca distribution can contain N packages21:29
mcdonczero or more of those packages may be a namespace package21:29
mcdoncin zope's case, it's usually a 1-for-1 package-to-distribition mapping21:29
mcdoncso that a distribution named contains one package also named
mcdoncand both zope and are namespace packages21:30
mejook, thanks a lot for the explanations21:30
mejoso if both and contain namespace packages, there's going to be a conflict, or not?21:31
*** runyaga has joined #zope21:32
*** runyaga has quit IRC21:32
*** runyaga has joined #zope21:32
mejoah it seems that all my problems are related to a bug in distribute:
mejomcdonc: thanks again for your help, it's much appreciated to meet people on IRC who explain things to others, instead of pissing them off ;-)21:50
mcdoncmejo: np ;-)21:56
*** teix has quit IRC22:04
*** thetet has joined #zope22:49
*** mejo has left #zope22:51
koshanyone know why the default for most webservers seems to be that compression is turned off?22:54
betabugprobably because in old times there were browsers who wouldn't get it right23:07
*** sunew has joined #zope23:09
koshjust seems so strange since modern systems still default to it off23:18
*** ldlework has joined #zope23:22
koshI am trying to help a professor speed up her wordpress site for a project and god wordpress is bed23:22
koshit versions urls but does not set caching headers on them so they revalidate every time23:22
koshno compress is setup23:22
koshsome of the plugins massively slow down the site but no idea which ones because there seems to be no working profiler for it23:23
koshstuff that would take minutes to do in zope, nginx, apache etc turns into a long drawn out process23:23
koshit also has documentation on caching which is completely wrong and useless23:25
koshplone honestly looks better written and easier to maintain ....23:25
koshso betabug you should work hard at making me overlord of greece23:26
*** sunew has quit IRC23:29
*** hever has joined #zope23:29
koshback later23:38
*** avoinea has joined #zope23:43
*** __mac__ has joined #zope23:46

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!