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| ldlework | I was wondering if anyone knew of any relational layers that go ontop of ZODB | 10:10 |
|---|---|---|
| ldlework | Or an ORM | 10:10 |
| ldlework | or schema migration layers | 10:10 |
| ldlework | If there's any of those | 10:11 |
| betabug | ldlework: I think you have some misunderstanding there about ZODB | 10:11 |
| betabug | you don't need that stuff | 10:11 |
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| ldlework | betabug, nah I know that it is a key,val store | 10:11 |
| betabug | nope, it isn't | 10:11 |
| ldlework | betabug, but ZODB certainly needs schema migration stuff | 10:11 |
| betabug | it's a python object store | 10:11 |
| ldlework | betabug, that's what I meant, object store | 10:12 |
| betabug | not the same at all as key,val | 10:12 |
| ldlework | betabug, yeah I got it, misspoke sorry | 10:12 |
| ldlework | betabug, certainly a schema migration solution is useful even with ZODB | 10:12 |
| betabug | there is no schema | 10:12 |
| betabug | so there is no schema migration | 10:12 |
| ldlework | betabug, sure there is, the attribute list of the class | 10:12 |
| betabug | that can change at any moment and the DB doesn't care | 10:13 |
| betabug | it will happily store your object (class instance) almost no matter what you do to it | 10:13 |
| ldlework | betabug, if I want to add a new attribute to an object in my store how do you go about doing that? | 10:15 |
| betabug | you add it | 10:15 |
| betabug | (done) | 10:15 |
| betabug | if you do not work with Zope, there is a good introduction to the ZODB from Carlos de la Guardia | 10:17 |
| betabug | if you use Zope, you don't really need even that (but then you'll need to learn a whole lot of other stuff) | 10:17 |
| ldlework | betabug, right how do you add it? | 10:19 |
| betabug | standard python syntax | 10:19 |
| betabug | myobject.myattribute = 7 | 10:19 |
| ldlework | betabug, right but where do you put that? | 10:19 |
| betabug | in your application code | 10:19 |
| ldlework | betabug, dude, jesus | 10:19 |
| betabug | there are lots of examples here: http://www.zodb.org/zodbbook/ | 10:20 |
| ldlework | betabug, what I do is have classes that represent the objects in my store. When I load up the OOBTree I loop through and create new instances of them, loading the value of each old attribute into the new instance | 10:20 |
| ldlework | betabug, for new attributes on the class that don't exist in the old instance, I have a special method that provides a default | 10:21 |
| ldlework | then I override the object in the store with the new instance, including newly initialized attributes | 10:21 |
| ldlework | betabug, this is kind of a schema migration to me | 10:21 |
| betabug | well, you probably don't have to "override the object in the store", just setting that attribute will be enough | 10:22 |
| betabug | anyway, the answer is: ZODB doesn't do that for you, and I don't know of any software package that does that for you on ZODB | 10:22 |
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| betabug | it's generally assumed that your application will know best how to do this kind of migration | 10:23 |
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| bigkevmcd | maybe http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zope.generations | 10:24 |
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| bigkevmcd | The idea of a ZODB ORM is quite fun tho' :-) | 10:26 |
| betabug | he | 10:26 |
| betabug | you'd need an OROM | 10:26 |
| betabug | something to translate your objects to relational data and then to ZODB objects | 10:27 |
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| kosh | hail insane people | 15:24 |
| betabug | hey kosh | 15:25 |
| kosh | betabug: my objects have version numbers and have upgrades | 15:26 |
| kosh | betabug: but I don't replace old objects with new ones, I just make the minimal changes necessary to convert | 15:26 |
| kosh | so I don't have as many writes | 15:26 |
| kosh | and where possible I just add a new attribute as a class attribute that way all things get some new default but anything can override it | 15:27 |
| kosh | also class defaults save a LOT of space | 15:27 |
| kosh | I found over 90% of objects are mostly using various default by usually have 1 or 2 things different | 15:27 |
| kosh | so with this method only 1 or 2 things are stored instead of 10 or more | 15:28 |
| betabug | yeah, I agree | 15:28 |
| kosh | cool my new hard drive gets delivered today | 15:28 |
| kosh | had a drive fail in one of my servers | 15:29 |
| betabug | I think the main point was that ldlework was confused about what zodb is or isn't | 15:29 |
| kosh | yeah it is a different kind of database | 15:29 |
| kosh | if you understand it though it can be extremely powerful and fast | 15:30 |
| kosh | the thing about not all objects stored having to store the same information or store all attributes is massively powerful | 15:30 |
| kosh | betabug: so how is your country doing? has it thrown out capitalism yet? | 15:34 |
| betabug | nope, still in the throngs of the big speculators | 15:35 |
| kosh | hurry up and throw those aholes out | 15:35 |
| kosh | japan is still in a recession after over 20 years of austerity measures | 15:35 |
| kosh | they won't work | 15:35 |
| kosh | austerity measures do not fix an economy | 15:36 |
| betabug | there isn't much economy left here | 15:39 |
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| kosh | betabug: so just bite the bullet and throw out what is left and make a new one | 15:47 |
| betabug | right | 15:48 |
| kosh | go for a resource based economy | 15:48 |
| kosh | something nice and modern | 15:48 |
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| kosh | betabug: if that system does not appeal to you just appoint me overlord of your country and I will fix it :) | 15:57 |
| betabug | haha | 15:57 |
| betabug | it does indeed appeal to me and a lot of people, but currently we live in something like a police dictature | 15:58 |
| betabug | the constitution is overruled daily, etc. | 15:58 |
| kosh | constitutions seem to be thrown out whenever inconvenient | 16:02 |
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| betabug | indeed | 16:07 |
| betabug | even APIs are more stable these days | 16:07 |
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| kosh | this is why you shoudl just put me in charge | 16:13 |
| kosh | I will run greece up the tech curve | 16:13 |
| kosh | the entire focus will be on technology and using it to create better lives | 16:13 |
| kosh | no corporations at all | 16:13 |
| kosh | it is not like I could do a worse job then your current government | 16:15 |
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| betabug | haha | 16:29 |
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| planetzopebot | Zope 2 as WSGI application (icemac) http://icemac.posterous.com/zope-2-as-wsgi-application | 19:08 |
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| mejo | hi | 20:48 |
| mejo | how does zope handle namespace collisions with eggs? | 20:49 |
| mejo | while trying to build zope packages for debian, I discovered that two eggs with the same namespace (i.e. zope.app.appsetup and zope.app.component) create a namespace collision. | 20:52 |
| mejo | the zope application doesn't find any but the first egg, as it occupies the namespace zope.app. | 20:52 |
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| kosh | no idea on that one I have not run into it | 20:59 |
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| mcdonc | mejo: http://packages.python.org/distribute/setuptools.html#namespace-packages | 21:21 |
| mejo | mcdonc: thanks. does zope2 install procedure install/create those namespace packages? | 21:22 |
| mcdonc | mejo: it's a "python thing" rather than a "zope thing" | 21:23 |
| mcdonc | the packages exist as namespace packages by virtue of having the hair in __init__.py described in that link | 21:23 |
| mejo | sure, but zope is the application that installs all the eggs into a virtualenv. | 21:23 |
| mcdonc | no | 21:24 |
| mcdonc | that'd instead be one of easy_install, pip, or buildout | 21:24 |
| mcdonc | zope is the thing being installed | 21:24 |
| mcdonc | but it doesnt do the installing | 21:24 |
| mejo | yes, but it declares the dependencies | 21:25 |
| mcdonc | that it does | 21:25 |
| mejo | so the installation app (easy_install, pip, buildout) takes care of creating namespace packages where required? | 21:25 |
| mcdonc | no.. those things dont "create" namespace packages.. they just install them.. a package either is or isn't a namespace package | 21:26 |
| mcdonc | zope.app.foo and zope.app.bar are namespace packages | 21:26 |
| mcdonc | terminology is pretty loose here which can be confusing | 21:27 |
| mcdonc | in reality, the thing you download from e.g. pypi called zope.app.foo-X.X.tar.gz is a *distribution* | 21:28 |
| mcdonc | but commonly people call them packages, which is technically not correct | 21:28 |
| mcdonc | because python already has a concept of a package separate from that | 21:28 |
| mcdonc | a distribution can contain N packages | 21:29 |
| mcdonc | zero or more of those packages may be a namespace package | 21:29 |
| mcdonc | in zope's case, it's usually a 1-for-1 package-to-distribition mapping | 21:29 |
| mcdonc | so that a distribution named zope.app.foo contains one package also named zope.app.foo | 21:30 |
| mcdonc | and both zope and zope.app are namespace packages | 21:30 |
| mejo | ok, thanks a lot for the explanations | 21:30 |
| mejo | so if both zope.app.appsetup and zope.app.basicskin contain namespace packages zope.app, there's going to be a conflict, or not? | 21:31 |
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| mejo | ah it seems that all my problems are related to a bug in distribute: https://bitbucket.org/tarek/distribute/issue/204/pkg_resources-fails-in-buildout-with-two | 21:36 |
| mejo | mcdonc: thanks again for your help, it's much appreciated to meet people on IRC who explain things to others, instead of pissing them off ;-) | 21:50 |
| mcdonc | mejo: np ;-) | 21:56 |
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| kosh | anyone know why the default for most webservers seems to be that compression is turned off? | 22:54 |
| betabug | probably because in old times there were browsers who wouldn't get it right | 23:07 |
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| kosh | just seems so strange since modern systems still default to it off | 23:18 |
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| kosh | I am trying to help a professor speed up her wordpress site for a project and god wordpress is bed | 23:22 |
| kosh | it versions urls but does not set caching headers on them so they revalidate every time | 23:22 |
| kosh | no compress is setup | 23:22 |
| kosh | some of the plugins massively slow down the site but no idea which ones because there seems to be no working profiler for it | 23:23 |
| kosh | stuff that would take minutes to do in zope, nginx, apache etc turns into a long drawn out process | 23:23 |
| kosh | it also has documentation on caching which is completely wrong and useless | 23:25 |
| kosh | plone honestly looks better written and easier to maintain .... | 23:25 |
| kosh | so betabug you should work hard at making me overlord of greece | 23:26 |
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| kosh | back later | 23:38 |
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