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| ganesh_ariveguru | hi....where i can learn zodb data retrieving concepts | 06:42 |
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| J1m | wtf, zope.testing claims Python 3 support, but it's tests don't even run w Python 3. | 19:02 |
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| kosh | J1m: I have hit that with a few other things before also | 19:59 |
| kosh | so far I see python 3 as a disaster that has horribly split the community | 20:00 |
| kosh | with many turning to other languages instead of upgrading | 20:00 |
| J1m | no kidding. | 20:00 |
| kosh | in some ways I feel that zope should work towards pypy instead of zope 3 | 20:00 |
| J1m | did you mean python 3? | 20:00 |
| kosh | it would at least run faster, I think it has some kind of restricted access thing | 20:00 |
| kosh | yeah | 20:01 |
| kosh | zope should work towards pypy instead of python 3 | 20:01 |
| kosh | it seems like it would give greater benefit | 20:01 |
| J1m | I don't care whether something supports Python 3 or not, but if it says it supports Python 3, it should actually support it. | 20:01 |
| kosh | and much of the c could probably be redone in rpython to make it simpler and still keep the same speed | 20:01 |
| J1m | I wanted to make some small enhancements to zope.testing. Because it *claims* to support Python 3, I feel obliged not to break Python 3 support. But then the tests fricking don't run. | 20:03 |
| J1m | So now, I'm tring to unscrew the tests. | 20:04 |
| J1m | trying | 20:04 |
| kosh | apparently the next version of python 3 adds more support for bytestring stuff back again with encodings so network stuff can be made to work again without insane hacks | 20:07 |
| J1m | insane hacks? like print_, like never using iterfoo, like always using sys.exc_info() to get exception values? | 20:09 |
| J1m | oh well, I don't want to talk about it any more. It'll just make me cranky. :) | 20:09 |
| J1m | er | 20:09 |
| kosh | there is some probably in python 3 related to encoding of bytestrings | 20:17 |
| kosh | there is the one true belief in python 3 that unicode is everything | 20:17 |
| kosh | but network is not unicode and networking also has encodings like gzip | 20:18 |
| kosh | or treating filesystems as all unicode when that does not actually work | 20:18 |
| kosh | python 2 allows bytestring to bytestring encodings | 20:18 |
| kosh | but something about that does not work right in python 3 | 20:18 |
| kosh | to be honest I did not put a lot of effort into looking into it, it was just one more problem that I don't have time to deal with | 20:19 |
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| mgedmin | J1m, I suspect that 'python3 setup.py test' might work with zope.testing | 22:30 |
| mgedmin | if it uses 2to3 | 22:30 |
| J1m | It didn | 22:31 |
| mgedmin | ah | 22:31 |
| J1m | It didn't work for me. | 22:31 |
| J1m | Maybe I didn't invoke it right. | 22:31 |
| mgedmin | I never tried | 22:31 |
| mgedmin | but I remember it was one of the first packages that people worked on to get it to run on Py3K | 22:31 |
| J1m | I'm guessing Lennart didn't either. | 22:32 |
| mgedmin | maybe | 22:32 |
| J1m | I suspect "run" is relative. | 22:32 |
| mgedmin | it might have bitrotted since then | 22:32 |
| J1m | Like, maybe they got it working without getting it's tests to pass. | 22:32 |
| mgedmin | wait, zope.testing or zope.testrunner? | 22:32 |
| J1m | zope.testing | 22:32 |
| J1m | There's something about 2to3 in the setup script, but I don't think it's being run. | 22:33 |
| J1m | I've hacked it a fair bit today so the tests run under Python 3, both with the test runner and with setup.py test. | 22:34 |
| J1m | This excludes tests for some modules that clearly haven't been ported. | 22:34 |
| J1m | I'll probably make a new release tomorrow. | 22:35 |
| J1m | I wanna make sure the some other changes work the way I expect them to first. | 22:35 |
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| davetoo | I'm having trouble finding the doc that explains exactly how zope.schema field constraints work. I want to limit the length of a Text/TextLine field. | 22:46 |
| davetoo | oh foo | 22:46 |
| davetoo | n/mind it's simpler than that, but still would be good to know | 22:46 |
| davetoo | .Text.max_loength just hit me in the face | 22:47 |
| davetoo | length | 22:47 |
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| fdrake | (Resuming a conversation with J1m....) | 23:28 |
| J1m | fred objects to zope.testing.wait_until, because it has an _ in the name. | 23:28 |
| fdrake | wait_until is an ugly module name. | 23:28 |
| * J1m objects to zope.testing.waituntil.wait_until | 23:29 | |
| fdrake | If the module were zope.testing.wait, and the class Until, and the callable until, client code would be more readable. | 23:29 |
| fdrake | zope.testing.wait_until.wait_until is ... long. | 23:29 |
| fdrake | (And repetitive.) | 23:29 |
| J1m | generally, you'll: from zope.testing.wait_until import wait_until | 23:29 |
| J1m | or stick wait_until into test globs. | 23:30 |
| J1m | so it's usually just wait_until(cone) | 23:30 |
| J1m | or | 23:30 |
| fdrake | No I won't. | 23:30 |
| fdrake | That violates my good sense. | 23:30 |
| J1m | @wait_until | 23:30 |
| J1m | def cond(): ... | 23:30 |
| * fdrake doesn't like from...import any more than underscores. | 23:31 | |
| * J1m wonders if mgedmin is still around. | 23:31 | |
| J1m | any other opinions..... | 23:31 |
| mgedmin | J1m, I'm sort of busy having fun at a game jam (writing a MUD in Pyramid) | 23:32 |
| J1m | I can live with zope.testing.wait.until -- to make fdrake happy | 23:32 |
| * fdrake likes being happy. | 23:32 | |
| J1m | I'll at least remove the tag I just made. :) | 23:33 |
| fdrake | Cool; thanks! | 23:33 |
| fdrake | That'll give me time to proof your typing. :-) | 23:33 |
| * mgedmin is strictly against import q.w.e.r.t.y.u.i.o; q.w.e.r.t.y.u.i.o.p() style when the number of dots exceeds two -- zope.component.provideAdapter() is barely okay) | 23:33 | |
| J1m | In test code, I'd end up doing: | 23:34 |
| J1m | wait.until(cond) | 23:34 |
| fdrake | mgedmin: That's why we should use short, readable names for things. | 23:34 |
| J1m | which I find a bit hinky | 23:34 |
| mgedmin | short, readable, *unique* names what we can bravely from somewhere import :) | 23:35 |
| * fdrake suspects mgedmin of be an as advocate. | 23:35 | |
| J1m | In normal code, I like using dots so I don't have to think hard about where things are defined. | 23:35 |
| J1m | In test code, I still often prefer dots for application code, but when using a test helper, I don't want a lot of clutter in the helper. | 23:36 |
| J1m | I wonder of there's a single word that says: "wait for a condition to hold" | 23:38 |
| J1m | maybe just wait | 23:38 |
| fdrake | That would be it. | 23:39 |
| J1m | until is sort of redundant. | 23:39 |
| fdrake | Though I'm still not convinced that twowords shouldn't be considered a single word for the purpose of creating function names. | 23:39 |
| J1m | You must be German. | 23:41 |
| fdrake | :-) | 23:41 |
| J1m | I'm still not convinced that modules shouldn't have _s. | 23:42 |
| fdrake | I'm ok with you not being convinced. | 23:42 |
| fdrake | That wasn't my goal. | 23:42 |
| J1m | But really, until is redundant. | 23:43 |
| fdrake | zope.testing.wait() (a function) would be fine with me as well | 23:43 |
| J1m | so I think I'll go w just wait. But I'll wait until tomorrow to decide for sure. :) | 23:43 |
| fdrake | Heh. :-) | 23:44 |
| * mgedmin finally understands what fdrake meant with that advocacy statement! | 23:44 | |
| mgedmin | there's no evil worse than 'from z3c.form import form as baseform' | 23:44 |
| J1m | I don't like it when modules write into package namespaces. | 23:44 |
| mgedmin | or just 'from z3c.formui import form' in some modules mixed with 'from z3c.form import form' in other modules | 23:44 |
| fdrake | J1m: Hmm? Why not include the class & callable in zope.testing/__init__.py? No one clobbering other folks' namespaces. | 23:46 |
| * mgedmin recently acquired a distaste for code in __init__.py | 23:46 | |
| * fdrake has become surprisingly accepting of code in __init__.py. | 23:46 | |
| J1m | That seems a bit presumptuous . | 23:46 |
| fdrake | Ha! | 23:46 |
| mgedmin | (after realizing that I pay the cost of importing useless stuff like lxml because some helpers in the parent package use it) | 23:47 |
| fdrake | Really? For a package not to control it's namespace? | 23:47 |
| fdrake | I wouldn't want to poke things into *other* packages, or into namespace packages. | 23:47 |
| J1m | I wish Python would let me give modules special methos, like __call__. | 23:48 |
| J1m | methods | 23:48 |
| J1m | Then I could have zope.testing.wait be both the module and the callable. | 23:48 |
| fdrake | You're not alone there. Even I'd prefer that. | 23:49 |
| J1m | Maybe in Python 4. | 23:49 |
| fdrake | An J1m knows I don't prefer much. | 23:49 |
| fdrake | *And | 23:49 |
| J1m | I really regret what I did with ZODB.DB (the class replaces the module) and what Jeremy did with ZODB.FileStorage.FileStorage (likewise) | 23:51 |
| J1m | The Wait(/WaitUntil) class is important at least for the case of gevent and similar things where you need to use a special sleep, so the class is an important part of the API. | 23:53 |
| * J1m doesn't expect anyone to say anything. :) | 23:54 | |
| fdrake | J1m: Nobody is expecting you to have made totally unreasonable decisions regarding what the code does. | 23:55 |
| J1m | My point was just that the API has 2 bits, so the module is important too. | 23:56 |
| J1m | until both wait and Wait were jammed into zope.testing, which doesn't feel right at this point. | 23:57 |
| fdrake | Sounds like the class is important, but the module is 'cause we're tend to put things in them. | 23:57 |
| J1m | s/until/unless | 23:57 |
| J1m | Yes, that's what modules are for. | 23:58 |
| J1m | Also, zope.testing isn't a module, it's a collection of modules. | 23:59 |
| fdrake | Indeed. And the package module works just fine for me. :-) | 23:59 |
| fdrake | Yeah, well. | 23:59 |
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| J1m | zope.testing is more like a namespace module than a regular module. | 23:59 |
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