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| kosh | so far I have not run zope with WSGI yet, I am pretty happy with zope and nginx for now | 01:09 |
|---|---|---|
| kosh | I would not run zope with apache though | 01:09 |
| kosh | I have been down that path | 01:09 |
| GrahamDumpleton | For audience we need to target, suggested that we just make out stuff work with Zope 2 without WSGI. | 01:09 |
| GrahamDumpleton | So we will look at adding support for Zope 2 itself rather than try and make people use WSGI., | 01:10 |
| kosh | zope 2 without WSGI is a very stable archiecture and WSGI is far newer | 01:10 |
| kosh | it will be a common setup in time but overall zope 2 tends to be extremely reliable | 01:10 |
| kosh | I have had zope servers run for years without a single crash, corruption etc | 01:11 |
| kosh | and you just can't say that about almost any other framework | 01:11 |
| kosh | I also support nginx over apache | 01:12 |
| kosh | with apache I had some very very strange long standing bugs where sometiems apache would swap data between requests, it was very rare and only under load but happened enough to be a problem | 01:12 |
| kosh | nginx was easier to setup and has never given me any issues | 01:12 |
| GrahamDumpleton | Are you talking with Apache as front end proxy? | 01:13 |
| kosh | yes | 01:14 |
| kosh | running apache in front of zope as a load balancing proxy I had apache swapping data between requests | 01:14 |
| kosh | people have reported the bug to apache a bunch of times but it keeps being closed as unreproduceable | 01:15 |
| kosh | with nginx I don't have that problem and setting up load balancing with nginx was trivial | 01:15 |
| GrahamDumpleton | What exactly do you mean by 'swapping data'? | 01:15 |
| kosh | say user a requests http://foo.com and user b requests http://bar.com and user a gets http://bar.com and use b gets http://foo.com | 01:16 |
| GrahamDumpleton | Hmmm, never heard of that one. FWIW, in Apache 2.4 the proxy modules I believe have had a lot of work done on them to improve them and add new features. Will be interesting in time to see if issue occurs there as well. | 01:18 |
| kosh | I had the problem with 2.2 I think but after a bunch of versions of it and still being broken it was not worth worrying about anymore | 01:18 |
| kosh | apache is far harder to setup, far harder to do proxy with, and nginx had no screwups | 01:19 |
| kosh | so one weekened I switched all my systems | 01:19 |
| kosh | and have not had a problem since with that | 01:19 |
| GrahamDumpleton | Actually, there has been an odd but very rare issue with mod_wsgi mixing sites sometimes too that never understood. Using daemon mode in that case though solved the issue. | 01:19 |
| kosh | even if apache fixes everything I have no reason to change back | 01:19 |
| kosh | just one of those things where once you have a reason to switch you don't necessarily have a reason to switch back | 01:19 |
| kosh | I would not go back to apache unless it did something I needed that nginx does not | 01:20 |
| GrahamDumpleton | Maybe the issue comes even before modules kick in and might be same issue affecting mod_wsgi and proxy modules. | 01:20 |
| kosh | I was just using the proxybalancer module | 01:20 |
| kosh | I have 4 cpu servers that run 1 zeo and 4 zope servers and then had apache in front to do load balancing and proxy | 01:20 |
| GrahamDumpleton | Yes, but I am talking about the request processing in Apache before it hands off to any module. | 01:20 |
| kosh | all the zope servers where identical | 01:20 |
| kosh | in the same setup nginx had no issues | 01:21 |
| kosh | yeah I have no idea wher ein apache it was | 01:21 |
| kosh | I tried the mpm threadpool, event and prefork modules and all had the same bug | 01:21 |
| GrahamDumpleton | One of the problems with Apache is the distros often do some patching themselves of things. :-( | 01:21 |
| kosh | that is true also | 01:21 |
| kosh | on the plus side nginx config file that I needed was maybe 1/4th of what apache needed and I figured out how to add some nice things | 01:22 |
| kosh | I have all my servers set to send 444 for .asp, .aspx, .jsp and .php that got rid of a huge ammount of garbage | 01:22 |
| kosh | at some point I may add china,russia and a few other places to a block list on my servers also | 01:24 |
| GrahamDumpleton | It is all a case of familiarity and what you personally find easier. People knowledgeable with Apache often find nginx very confusing. Always better to use what you find easier and fits your mind. | 01:26 |
| kosh | just because that is where most of the attacks are coming from and none of the customers | 01:26 |
| kosh | I am sure if I used nginx or apache for other things it would get more confusing | 01:26 |
| kosh | but I only proxy and loadbalance with it | 01:26 |
| kosh | no serving of anything else | 01:26 |
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| * mgedmin has experienced enough issues with zope 2, especially when unicode gets involved somewhere, that he no longer recommends people use it | 01:29 | |
| kosh | I don't do unicode too many problems with it in general | 01:30 |
| kosh | I keep running into asian areas where I am told I can't use unicode for too dang many reasons including codepoint unification which the chinese, japanese and south korean governments worked on together that apparentlyt he people don't like | 01:30 |
| kosh | since I don't want to mix bytes and unicode I just stay with bytes | 01:31 |
| mgedmin | yeah, when you get to maintain a zope site that intermixes DTMLDocuments (stored as bytes) and PageTemplates (stored as unicode since Zope 2.someversionnewerthanthatwebsite), you can't really do much | 01:38 |
| mgedmin | except sprinkle .encide/decode('utf-8') randomly in your legacy TTW scripts hoping it'll work | 01:38 |
| mgedmin | and it works when you test in Firefox/Chrome, and then somebody tells you it spews unicode errors when you visit the site with Internet Explorer | 01:39 |
| mgedmin | (because it sends Accept-Charset: * without explicitly mentioning UTF-8 or some such nonsense) | 01:39 |
| mgedmin | faugh | 01:39 |
| mgedmin | sorry for venting | 01:39 |
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| kosh | mgedmin: overall encodings are just nasty and unicode actually made teh probem worse | 02:27 |
| kosh | since it is a standard not an encoding | 02:27 |
| kosh | there are lots of unicode encodings | 02:27 |
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| kosh | and some languages change in subtle ways with unicode (cjk) | 02:28 |
| kosh | I am happy I am getting out of this stuff | 02:28 |
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