IRC log of #zope for Wednesday, 2012-03-14

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koshso far I have not run zope with WSGI yet, I am pretty happy with zope and nginx for now01:09
koshI would not run zope with apache though01:09
koshI have been down that path01:09
GrahamDumpletonFor audience we need to target, suggested that we just make out stuff work with Zope 2 without WSGI.01:09
GrahamDumpletonSo we will look at adding support for Zope 2 itself rather than try and make people use WSGI.,01:10
koshzope 2 without WSGI is a very stable archiecture and WSGI is far newer01:10
koshit will be a common setup in time but overall zope 2 tends to be extremely reliable01:10
koshI have had zope servers run for years without a single crash, corruption etc01:11
koshand you just can't say that about almost any other framework01:11
koshI also support nginx over apache01:12
koshwith apache I had some very very strange long standing bugs where sometiems apache would swap data between requests, it was very rare and only under load but happened enough to be a problem01:12
koshnginx was easier to setup and has never given me any issues01:12
GrahamDumpletonAre you talking with Apache as front end proxy?01:13
koshrunning apache in front of zope as a load balancing proxy I had apache swapping data between requests01:14
koshpeople have reported the bug to apache a bunch of times but it keeps being closed as unreproduceable01:15
koshwith nginx I don't have that problem and setting up load balancing with nginx was trivial01:15
GrahamDumpletonWhat exactly do you mean by 'swapping data'?01:15
koshsay user a requests and user b requests and user a gets   and use b gets http://foo.com01:16
GrahamDumpletonHmmm, never heard of that one. FWIW, in Apache 2.4 the proxy modules I believe have had a lot of work done on them to improve them and add new features. Will be interesting in time to see if issue occurs there as well.01:18
koshI had the problem with 2.2 I think  but after a bunch of versions of it and still being broken it was not worth worrying about anymore01:18
koshapache is far harder to setup, far harder to do proxy with, and nginx had no screwups01:19
koshso one weekened I switched all my systems01:19
koshand have not had a problem since with that01:19
GrahamDumpletonActually, there has been an odd but very rare issue with mod_wsgi mixing sites sometimes too that never understood. Using daemon mode in that case though solved the issue.01:19
kosheven if apache fixes everything I have no reason to change back01:19
koshjust one of those things where once you have a reason to switch you don't necessarily have a reason to switch back01:19
koshI would not go back to apache unless it did something I needed that nginx does not01:20
GrahamDumpletonMaybe the issue comes even before modules kick in and might be same issue affecting mod_wsgi and proxy modules.01:20
koshI was just using the proxybalancer module01:20
koshI have 4 cpu servers that run 1 zeo  and 4 zope servers and then had apache in front to do load balancing and proxy01:20
GrahamDumpletonYes, but I am talking about the request processing in Apache before it hands off to any module.01:20
koshall the zope servers where identical01:20
koshin the same setup nginx had no issues01:21
koshyeah I have no idea wher ein apache it was01:21
koshI tried the mpm threadpool, event and prefork modules and all had the same bug01:21
GrahamDumpletonOne of the problems with Apache is the distros often do some patching themselves of things. :-(01:21
koshthat is true also01:21
koshon the plus side nginx config file that I needed was maybe 1/4th of what apache needed and I figured out how to add some nice things01:22
koshI have all my servers set to send 444 for .asp, .aspx, .jsp and .php   that got rid of a huge ammount of garbage01:22
koshat some point I may add china,russia and a few other places to a block list on my servers also01:24
GrahamDumpletonIt is all a case of familiarity and what you personally find easier. People knowledgeable with Apache often find nginx very confusing. Always better to use what you find easier and fits your mind.01:26
koshjust because that is where most of the attacks are coming from and none of the customers01:26
koshI am sure if I used nginx or apache for other things it would get more confusing01:26
koshbut I only proxy and loadbalance with it01:26
koshno serving of anything else01:26
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* mgedmin has experienced enough issues with zope 2, especially when unicode gets involved somewhere, that he no longer recommends people use it01:29
koshI don't do unicode too many problems with it in general01:30
koshI keep running into asian areas where I am told I can't use unicode for too dang many reasons including codepoint unification which the chinese, japanese and south korean governments worked on together that apparentlyt he people don't like01:30
koshsince I don't want to mix  bytes and unicode I just stay with bytes01:31
mgedminyeah, when you get to maintain a zope site that intermixes DTMLDocuments (stored as bytes) and PageTemplates (stored as unicode since Zope 2.someversionnewerthanthatwebsite), you can't really do much01:38
mgedminexcept sprinkle .encide/decode('utf-8') randomly in your legacy TTW scripts hoping it'll work01:38
mgedminand it works when you test in Firefox/Chrome, and then somebody tells you it spews unicode errors when you visit the site with Internet Explorer01:39
mgedmin(because it sends Accept-Charset: * without explicitly mentioning UTF-8 or some such nonsense)01:39
mgedminsorry for venting01:39
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koshmgedmin: overall encodings are just nasty and unicode actually made teh probem worse02:27
koshsince it is a standard not an encoding02:27
koshthere are lots of unicode encodings02:27
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koshand some languages change in subtle ways with unicode (cjk)02:28
koshI am happy I am getting out of this stuff02:28
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