IRC log of #zope for Saturday, 2012-12-29

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BahmanAnyone has a link to a tutorial on how to write an application with Zope2?  I'm looking for some clues on how to write a (almost) simple accounting application using Zope2.  I'd really appreciate any help.10:25
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betabugBahman: why would anyone want to start with Zope2 development *now*?12:06
Bahmanbetabug: Why?12:07
BahmanIs it deprecated?12:07
betabugBahman: because the project is almost dead12:07
BahmanZope 2?12:07
BahmanThe last release was on Oct.  How come it's dead?12:07
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betabugwell, do you find any up-to-date documentation? do you find any active mailing lists, irc channels or the like?12:08
BahmanNo.  The docs are total crap.12:08
betabugthere you are, they are worse than that, because most of it is also wildly outdated12:09
betabugI humbly suggest you take a look at pyramid, you can work with ZODB and ZPT there too12:09
BahmanUm...but I don't understand.  It's being actively developed, isn't it?12:09
betabugyou will need to build some things yourself that Zope 2 offered "out of the box", but maybe you don't even need them12:10
betabugthere are a few people who still need and use Zope 2 (largest group is possibly Plone)12:10
betabugso they will keep the software around as long as they need it12:10
betabugbut certainly there is no community around to write docs and accomodate newbies12:11
Bahmanbetabug: Oh, I see.  Yeah, Plone was the reason Zope2 got my attention.12:11
betabugI liked (and like) Zope 2 a lot, but the current state is not encouraging12:11
betabugand personally I think plone is crap, but that's just my oppinion12:11
Bahmanbetabug: OT here but what about the likes of Grok?  Do they suffer the same fate?12:12
betabugno idea about grok really12:12
betabuga lot of old zope people are in the pyramid universe now12:13
Bahmanbetabug: Let me get it straight: Zope 2 is not dead technology but is no place for newbies because it lacks almost any up-to-date documentation?12:13
betabugyeah, you could put it like that12:13
* Bahman sighs12:14
betabugplease have a look at pyramid12:14
Bahmanbetabug: I already did.  Pyramid, Pylons, Flask and CherryPy.12:14
betabugit takes some of the best tech from zope and builds a very sound framework around it12:14
BahmanBut as I'm making money with Plone, I thought "let's give Zope2 a try".12:14
betabugwell, Pylons "merged" with Pyramid now12:15
betabugwell, if you want to learn Zope 2 to know more about Plone, you'd have to start digging through the old docs and see what is still applicable now12:15
BahmanNo way :-)12:16
betabugbut as I said, if you want to use ZODB and ZPT, pyramid has that covered12:16
betabugand the pyramid docs are excellent12:16
BahmanYes, I noticed that.12:16
BahmanFlask and Pyramid have the best docs.12:16
BahmanNot to compare them in terms of functionality though.12:17
Bahmanbetabug: I still can't believe the situation :-|12:18
BahmanA good piece of software has no new docs at all -and from I observed, it never did actually.12:18
betabugyes, I've been here in #zope all these years, and it's become really quiet now12:18
betabugwhat broke the thing for me is that new releases are breaking old functionality12:19
betabugso I would have to rewrite customer apps again and again to be able to stay up-to-date on the zope version12:19
betabugno way are these customers willing to pay for that12:19
BahmanYes, that's what happens when the user base shrinks.12:19
betabugdunno, I think from a logical point of view, the opposite should happen12:20
betabugbut since I'm not doing the work, I have no right to talk12:20
Bahmanbetabug: Thank you.  Though it's sad, I think you're right.  I posted a couple of questions about Grok and Zope2 on SO (    and and really no one seems to be interested.12:23
BahmanChecking Pyramid again.12:26
mcdonc#pyramid is the right place to ask general questions12:28
BahmanThannks mcdonc.12:31
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elonI'm using ZODB without Zope. I'm trying to store some instances of my own classes, but something goes wrong. Please take a look at these two pastebins, they should be able to communicate my problem: This doesn't work as expected: , and this does:
elonThe only difference between the two is that in the first one, I call transaction_manager.commit() inside the loop, and in the second one, I call it outside of the loop.13:27 is here, if you need it:
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elonThe Variable class is a tree, each Variable instance containing one other Variable instance, and one Value instance13:28
elonThe Variable-instance there contains another Variable-instance, and that goes 100 layers deep13:29
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elonI've found the problem. In the Variable class, I was using a normal dictionary. ZODB couldn't see any changes, obviously. Replacing the dict with a PersistentMapping solved the issue13:59
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betabuggood morning sm20:48
betabughmm, wrong channel :-)20:48
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