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| seppo14 | hello guys, any comments on new web app development using Zope2 and ZODB? I consider Zope2 to be quite stable… Been using it for many years now. Thinking about using it for a new project… would you use Zope2 for new projects or head over to frameworks like CherryPy or Web2Py? What should keep me from using Zope2 for new projects? | 19:19 |
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| betabug | seppo14: pyramid using zodb - that's where I went, enjoying it a lot | 21:09 |
| betabug | dunno if I'd call Zope2 stable | 21:09 |
| betabug | but pyramid has all the best stuff from zope and is very well maintained and documented | 21:09 |
| seppo14 | browsing the docs right now, already considered it…. | 21:10 |
| seppo14 | i'd love to keep ZPT style for templates.. | 21:10 |
| mcdonc | i might suggest substanced, which is based on pyramid, but has most of the features of zope (admin ui, property sheets) except ttw coding | 21:10 |
| mcdonc | http://substanced.net/ | 21:11 |
| seppo14 | nice, never heard of this one before... | 21:12 |
| mcdonc | it's our (well at least my) apology for zope 2 | 21:12 |
| mcdonc | "sorry, here's what we meant" | 21:13 |
| seppo14 | hehe i see what you're talking about... | 21:13 |
| seppo14 | we're stuck to zope2 on some part as we're still developing for ZMS (zms-publishing.com) which is quite a good CMS | 21:13 |
| seppo14 | but right now we're planning to rebuild a larger php/mysql based web app and I'm not going the PHP route here... | 21:14 |
| seppo14 | i'm actually one of the rare guys out there that loves the way ZODB works… | 21:15 |
| mcdonc | well bare pyramid (or bare flask or bare bottle or cherrypy) w/ ZODB is one way to go | 21:15 |
| mcdonc | but if you already know zope, and the app requires an admin ui, it's kind of a nobrainer to at least try substance d | 21:16 |
| seppo14 | what I'm not sure about is how ZODB handles many "queries"… current mysql tables are 150.000 rows and more… | 21:17 |
| mcdonc | zodb doesnt | 21:17 |
| seppo14 | haven't had that situation with zodb before... | 21:17 |
| mcdonc | catalog implementations do | 21:17 |
| seppo14 | that's what i meant actually… | 21:17 |
| seppo14 | i've seen the postgres comparison somewhere | 21:18 |
| mcdonc | 150000 rows is roughly equivalent to 150000 documents i'd suppose, and that's not very many | 21:18 |
| seppo14 | if you say so ;-) | 21:18 |
| mcdonc | a customer of mine has 500,000 items in a single folder (in a substanced site) and uses "live search" against the catalog | 21:18 |
| mcdonc | where when he types he sees the list of matching docs change | 21:18 |
| seppo14 | i'm just sick of handling that php stuff everyday, so we convinced our client that a migration of the project to something serious would be good for both sides... | 21:19 |
| mcdonc | yeah, well, deciding not to use php and deciding not to use sql are two distinct choices, so it'd probably be in your best interest to make them separately | 21:20 |
| mcdonc | porting would be easier if you left the stuff in sql obviously | 21:20 |
| seppo14 | the decision not to use php has already been made | 21:20 |
| seppo14 | the sql one is still open | 21:21 |
| seppo14 | right | 21:21 |
| seppo14 | leaving the sql route for the primary storage would mean we'd have to build export interfaces putting the data into sql again for the client's client's, who need to access data directly via sql interface databases atm | 21:21 |
| seppo14 | on the other hand we're considering building a json/rest api anyway and leaving that too | 21:22 |
| seppo14 | i'm not sure how this makes sense with a lot of queries irl | 21:22 |
| seppo14 | but thanks for your input so far guys.. | 21:22 |
| mcdonc | if they already have direct sql access it'll be difficult to take that away | 21:22 |
| seppo14 | we'll see ,-) | 21:23 |
| mcdonc | sqlalchemy is great even if you don't use the orm (it has connection pooling stuff) | 21:24 |
| seppo14 | well still better than one part of the app where the client still transfers xml files via ftp everyday - and we're talking about 50.000+ | 21:24 |
| seppo14 | yep, would be the way to go | 21:24 |
| mcdonc | that said, if you need "multitenancy" (more than one "site" per domain) or delegation, it's hard to beat zopelike things | 21:25 |
| seppo14 | how does zodb handle things scaling-wise compared to mysql? | 21:25 |
| mcdonc | well, if you use relstorage, it handles them how your backend handles them | 21:26 |
| mcdonc | so if you used mysql it would be same replication stuff | 21:26 |
| mcdonc | or you could use zrs, which is essentially federated zeo | 21:26 |
| seppo14 | never worked with relstorage | 21:26 |
| mcdonc | it's not very hard | 21:27 |
| mcdonc | it's just pickles stored in relational database tables instead of a file on disk | 21:27 |
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| seppo14 | what's the difference to storing them on file? i.e. advantage? performance? querying? | 21:28 |
| mcdonc | it's about the same runtime performance (most of zodb's expense comes at unpickling) | 21:28 |
| mcdonc | advantage is being able to replicate | 21:29 |
| mcdonc | and use same backup strategy as the other stuff you store in an rdb | 21:29 |
| seppo14 | ok, my reading list grows. actually I'd love to have most of the zope features without the "old dusty" zope2... | 21:29 |
| mcdonc | note that it doesnt mean your data is readable via plain old sql | 21:29 |
| seppo14 | ah ok | 21:30 |
| mcdonc | you can't eg. "select * from blog_posts where user = 'fred'" | 21:30 |
| mcdonc | it stores pickles | 21:30 |
| seppo14 | i see, it's just a backend as the doc says | 21:30 |
| seppo14 | but in terms of replication that makes things a lot easier i guess | 21:30 |
| mcdonc | yeah especially if you already know how to replicate the backend db | 21:31 |
| mcdonc | if you don't, then its just as hard ;-) | 21:31 |
| seppo14 | we're got some experience with that | 21:31 |
| seppo14 | so far thanks for the ideas, will have to get into some of that stuff a bit more and make a decision next week... | 21:32 |
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