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| kobold | hello, what is the standard/preferred way in zope3 to have i18n-aware content objects? | 08:49 |
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| romanofski | morjens | 09:34 |
| eins | romanofski morning;) | 09:35 |
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| romanofski | hey eins :) | 09:38 |
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| kobold | nobody knows how to handle content-level i18n? | 15:10 |
| SmokeyD | hi all. In zope 3.2 what is the equivalent of response.write(). I can't make it out from httpresults.txt in ++apidoc++ | 15:11 |
| SmokeyD | kobold, I don't, sorry | 15:12 |
| eins | kobold you may want to have a look at zope.app.i18nfile | 15:13 |
| kobold | eins: thanks, I was reading it... but my case is different because I'm using sqlos, so my data is stored in a RDBMS. | 15:14 |
| kobold | so this situation is more complex, I suppose. | 15:14 |
| SmokeyD | I just want to set the content of the response myself | 15:17 |
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| SmokeyD | Using response.setResult("Some string") does not work | 15:23 |
| SmokeyD | I just get an empty response (the headers are right, just no content) | 15:23 |
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| eins | kobold then it depends on how you implement i18n in your RDB | 15:30 |
| kobold | eins: I think I'll use the approach that i18nfile uses for my RDB-based classes, thanks! | 15:32 |
| eins | np:) | 15:33 |
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| volvox | SmokeyD: you are probably seeing an empty reponse because your view implicitly returns None | 15:55 |
| SmokeyD | stupid. I figured it out. Just return the text from the __call__ method sets it as the content of the response object | 15:55 |
| SmokeyD | indead volvox | 15:55 |
| SmokeyD | Since __call__ returned nothing | 15:55 |
| SmokeyD | the body was empty | 15:55 |
| SmokeyD | thanks | 15:56 |
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| scherand | Hi, does anybody know how to (correctly) use Zope3 with a relational database? I think I have some very basic questions... | 16:47 |
| kobold | scherand: have you already tried sqlos? | 16:53 |
| philiKON | scherand, sqlos + sqlobject is what most people use | 16:53 |
| philiKON | there's also an interface to sqlalchemy | 16:53 |
| scherand | I tried SQLAlchemy for starters. But I think I lack more basic information. | 16:54 |
| jinty | scherand: pure sqlalchemy in Z3 is hard to do, you need a bridge/integration layer | 16:55 |
| scherand | The question that pops up all the time is if it is a good idea to use Zope3 with a RDB at all. | 16:55 |
| jinty | which is what sqlos is to sqlobject and zqlchemy is to sqlalchemy | 16:55 |
| scherand | Sorry, I tried ZAlchemy. Not the "hard way" | 16:55 |
| jinty | scherand: Is it ever a good idea to try to mix an object and relational model? | 16:56 |
| jinty | but loads of people still do it | 16:56 |
| scherand | jinty: To me the question is, how much of Zope's advantages I loose when "not" using its ZODB. | 16:58 |
| philiKON | in zope 3, surprisingly little | 16:58 |
| philiKON | the question still is whether it's worth it | 16:58 |
| jinty | I've seen estimates that 30% of a project's time is spent maintaining the object-relational translation | 16:59 |
| jinty | from a Java man | 16:59 |
| philiKON | then again, sqlos + sqlobject make a lot of things seemingless | 17:00 |
| philiKON | whether it's forms or normal browser pages | 17:00 |
| faassen | anyway, I think it would be nice if the zope 3 community got beyond "try the ZODB" in its discussion on object/relational. | 17:01 |
| philiKON | everything is as if you're dealing with persistent objects | 17:01 |
| philiKON | faassen, absolutely | 17:01 |
| faassen | I think a good story that people give as the answer when someone wants that is better. | 17:01 |
| faassen | than "hey, try the ZODB" | 17:01 |
| faassen | I mean, we all enjoy a good object database/relational database debate | 17:01 |
| faassen | but people want relational for a variety of reasons, some of which are excellent acceptable reasons. :) | 17:02 |
| philiKON | i agree, however people underestimate the zodb i think | 17:02 |
| faassen | sure, people do. | 17:02 |
| philiKON | they hear "database" and think "i already have an oracle license" | 17:02 |
| faassen | yeah, I know that. | 17:02 |
| benji | agreed, philiKON | 17:02 |
| philiKON | one trick matth recently told me was not to call the zodb a database :) | 17:02 |
| faassen | they do that. but still, we should be able to say: Zope 3 has great integration with relational databases. | 17:02 |
| philiKON | call it an "object store" :) | 17:02 |
| philiKON | faassen, absolutely | 17:03 |
| benji | "object store", I'll have to remmeber that. | 17:04 |
| jinty | though there are situations where a relational database is a requirement, it would be nice to have something that explains how | 17:05 |
| jinty | s/requirement/hard requirement/ | 17:05 |
| * philiKON takes notes for zope.org's new documentation section | 17:05 | |
| * jinty might volunteer to help after a few more projects | 17:06 | |
| benji | and there are different ways to use a RDB, there's "all data must be in the RDBMS", there's also "some in ZODB, some in RDBMS; use as appropriate"; those can be quite different | 17:07 |
| philiKON | yup | 17:07 |
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| jinty | and also different O-R patterns to apply depending on the complexity of the problem | 17:09 |
| eins | relational databases are easy to maintain, replicate and there are lots of alternatives if you have to repair corrupted databases; I can't say the same about zodb, which is why some people can't afford themself to use zodb | 17:09 |
| philiKON | one thing that RDBs definitely have is a good schema evolution + dump/reload story | 17:09 |
| philiKON | at least better than the zodb | 17:10 |
| eins | yeah | 17:10 |
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| philiKON | and of course, it is questionable whether zope shoudl be in the indexing business | 17:10 |
| philiKON | or whether that shouldn't be left to more equipped systems like RDBs as well | 17:10 |
| philiKON | so, there are a lot of angles to this | 17:10 |
| eins | I think it's quite risky to trust zodb since you may not recover your data if anything.. | 17:11 |
| jinty | RDB's also have the ability to be used by other programs written in different languages, in a way that many people know how. | 17:11 |
| philiKON | right. though systems like enfold's whatever-it-is can alleviate this problem | 17:12 |
| benji | eins: I can't agree with you there; it may be because of our institutional knowledge, but we have great success maintianing, replicating, and recovering large ZODBs | 17:12 |
| philiKON | yup, i wouldn't say ZODBs aren't safe | 17:13 |
| philiKON | just because you get your data in and out via python | 17:13 |
| philiKON | it's just that many people don't feel comfortable with that, i suppose | 17:13 |
| * jinty searches for enfold's whatever-it-is... | 17:13 | |
| * benji is curious about what enfold's whatever-it-is does | 17:14 | |
| philiKON | it's a push mechanism | 17:15 |
| philiKON | you manage content in plone | 17:15 |
| philiKON | and thru workflow changes it gets pushed out to another system | 17:15 |
| philiKON | from which it is published to the internet | 17:15 |
| philiKON | that publishing could be PHP | 17:16 |
| philiKON | or Zope 3 | 17:16 |
| benji | ahh, ok | 17:16 |
| philiKON | it's basically, content management and the content publishing is divided into 2 systems | 17:16 |
| philiKON | content mangement is plone, content publishing is whatever you want it to be | 17:16 |
| philiKON | and whatever you may feel comfortable with | 17:16 |
| rocky | entransit | 17:19 |
| philiKON | right! | 17:20 |
| philiKON | http://plone.org/products/entransit | 17:20 |
| rocky | i really need to try using that at some point ... i'm not convinced yet that it's the wonder pill that alan makes it out to be :) | 17:21 |
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| scherand | One thing I do not understand for example is the following: If I have a e.g. ZAlchemy Object (class?), let's say a person (since we have lots of persons in our relational DB) do I "map" every RDB-person to a Zope-ZAlchemy-person? So I can access the information about persons through Zope? Or do I create person objects in Zope whenever they are needed but do not store "them" or "a copy of them" in ZODB? | 17:23 |
| scherand | edit: by "access the information about persons through Zope" I mean through the ZMI | 17:24 |
| philiKON | rocky, nah, me neither ;) | 17:25 |
| scherand | edit: and by " do I create person objects in Zope whenever they are needed" I mean "behind the scenes" | 17:25 |
| philiKON | scherand, the object-relational-mapper will create a person object for every database row in the Persons table | 17:25 |
| eins | scherand and don't use zalchemy:) you probably won't be able to have several sites which hold objects of the same class if you use it, i.e. there is no way to use several sqlalchemy engines for one class | 17:27 |
| benji | but you wouldn't (normally) store anything in the ZODB for those person objects | 17:28 |
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| scherand | So these objects the object-relational mapper creates are "volatile" (from the Zope point of view)? | 17:29 |
| philiKON | scherand, yes | 17:29 |
| scherand | Thanks, that answers one of my biggest questions righ now :) I think I have to have a look at sqlos then... | 17:30 |
| philiKON | it's great | 17:31 |
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| scherand | Oh, one more thing that pops into my mind right now: Can I still edit the attributes of such a "volatile o-r-mapper object" as easy as if it was an object in the zodb (forms for editing the attributes are then created "for free", if I am not mistaken)? | 17:34 |
| philiKON | yes, that's the idea of the o-r-mapper | 17:35 |
| philiKON | you work with objects, modify them etc. | 17:35 |
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| philiKON | and the o-r-mapper handles the translation into database records | 17:35 |
| philiKON | to formlib etc. it all looks like standard objects wiht attributes | 17:35 |
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| scherand | This sounds good. I must have misunderstood something when I tried the first time (using ZAlchemy, that is)... Hopefully I will be able to produce better results next time. | 17:37 |
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| rocky | hmm... someone posted a mail to one of the zope3 mailing lists a while back about a product for refresh zope3 views... anyone remember the name of that product? | 17:42 |
| ignas | http://gintasm.blogspot.com/2005/08/zope-3-views-reloaded.html | 17:44 |
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| philiKON | zope 3 reloads wicked fast on non-ppc machines | 17:59 |
| * philiKON needs to get himself an intel mac | 17:59 | |
| philiKON | actually, i think django automatically recognizes changed python modules and simply restarts the whole server, but automatically | 17:59 |
| philiKON | i wonder how much of a hassle that woudl be to implement in zope 3 | 17:59 |
| philiKON | at a later stage we can optimize it using tres's idea of storing pre-parsed ZCML in byte code for faster (re)loads | 18:00 |
| rocky | java's use of class loaders is good for this kind of stuff... need to reload code? dump the class loader and start afresh | 18:00 |
| philiKON | yeah, actually, i've heard a lot about java's class laoder and i think this is something where java actually sounds superior to python | 18:02 |
| ignas | philiKON: how many minutes do you call wicked fast ? | 18:02 |
| philiKON | 0.1 minutes | 18:03 |
| philiKON | ;) | 18:03 |
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| philiKON | my g4 needs 10 to 20 secs for an average z3 instance | 18:03 |
| philiKON | intel machines are much faster, provided the files are in harddisk cache | 18:03 |
| ignas | oh average z3 instance | 18:03 |
| ignas | as i have some Data.fs files that are not exactly average ... | 18:04 |
| ignas | it's at least 10-20 secs for me too | 18:04 |
| Theuni | philiKON: weird. my nowadays slow notebook can go down to 4 seconds, if i optimize which products get included. | 18:05 |
| Theuni | s/products/"products"/ | 18:05 |
| philiKON | hehe | 18:05 |
| philiKON | yeah, well, macosx :( | 18:05 |
| philiKON | plus, for the book i load an average isntance | 18:06 |
| philiKON | for other things i cut down, too | 18:06 |
| Theuni | ic | 18:06 |
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| ignas | why can't Zope3 save Data.fs.index when i stop it with ^C ? | 18:12 |
| philiKON | does z2 do that? | 18:16 |
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| HammerToe | anyone seen Jim or Tres, or any other ZODB gurus about? | 18:38 |
| philiKON | HammerToe! | 18:40 |
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