IRC log of #zope3-dev for Monday, 2006-09-04

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koboldhello, what is the standard/preferred way in zope3 to have i18n-aware content objects?08:49
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einsromanofski morning;)09:35
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romanofskihey eins :)09:38
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koboldnobody knows how to handle content-level i18n?15:10
SmokeyDhi all. In zope 3.2 what is the equivalent of response.write(). I can't make it out from httpresults.txt in ++apidoc++15:11
SmokeyDkobold, I don't, sorry15:12
einskobold you may want to have a look at
koboldeins: thanks, I was reading it... but my case is different because I'm using sqlos, so my data is stored in a RDBMS.15:14
koboldso this situation is more complex, I suppose.15:14
SmokeyDI just want to set the content of the response myself15:17
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SmokeyDUsing response.setResult("Some string") does not work15:23
SmokeyDI just get an empty response (the headers are right, just no content)15:23
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einskobold then it depends on how you implement i18n in your RDB15:30
koboldeins: I think I'll use the approach that i18nfile uses for my RDB-based classes, thanks!15:32
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volvoxSmokeyD: you are probably seeing an empty reponse because your view implicitly returns None15:55
SmokeyDstupid. I figured it out. Just return the text from the __call__ method sets it as the content of the response object15:55
SmokeyDindead volvox15:55
SmokeyDSince __call__ returned nothing15:55
SmokeyDthe body was empty15:55
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scherandHi, does anybody know how to (correctly) use Zope3 with a relational database? I think I have some very basic questions...16:47
koboldscherand: have you already tried sqlos?16:53
philiKONscherand, sqlos + sqlobject is what most people use16:53
philiKONthere's also an interface to sqlalchemy16:53
scherandI tried SQLAlchemy for starters. But I think I lack more basic information.16:54
jintyscherand: pure sqlalchemy in Z3 is hard to do, you need a bridge/integration layer16:55
scherandThe question that pops up all the time is if it is a good idea to use Zope3 with a RDB at all.16:55
jintywhich is what sqlos is to sqlobject and zqlchemy is to sqlalchemy16:55
scherandSorry, I tried ZAlchemy. Not the "hard way"16:55
jintyscherand: Is it ever a good idea to try to mix an object and relational model?16:56
jintybut loads of people still do it16:56
scherandjinty: To me the question is, how much of Zope's advantages I loose when "not" using its ZODB.16:58
philiKONin zope 3, surprisingly little16:58
philiKONthe question still is whether it's worth it16:58
jintyI've seen estimates that 30% of a project's time is spent maintaining the object-relational translation16:59
jintyfrom a Java man16:59
philiKONthen again, sqlos + sqlobject make a lot of things seemingless17:00
philiKONwhether it's forms or normal browser pages17:00
faassenanyway, I think it would be nice if the zope 3 community got beyond "try the ZODB" in its discussion on object/relational.17:01
philiKONeverything is as if you're dealing with persistent objects17:01
philiKONfaassen, absolutely17:01
faassenI think a good story that people give as the answer when someone wants that is better.17:01
faassenthan "hey, try the ZODB"17:01
faassenI mean, we all enjoy a good object database/relational database debate17:01
faassenbut people want relational for a variety of reasons, some of which are excellent acceptable reasons. :)17:02
philiKONi agree, however people underestimate the zodb i think17:02
faassensure, people do.17:02
philiKONthey hear "database" and think "i already have an oracle license"17:02
faassenyeah, I know that.17:02
benjiagreed, philiKON17:02
philiKONone trick matth recently told me was not to call the zodb a database :)17:02
faassenthey do that. but still, we should be able to say: Zope 3 has great integration with relational databases.17:02
philiKONcall it an "object store" :)17:02
philiKONfaassen, absolutely17:03
benji"object store", I'll have to remmeber that.17:04
jintythough there are situations where a relational database is a requirement, it would be nice to have something that explains how17:05
jintys/requirement/hard requirement/17:05
* philiKON takes notes for's new documentation section17:05
* jinty might volunteer to help after a few more projects17:06
benjiand there are different ways to use a RDB, there's "all data must be in the RDBMS", there's also "some in ZODB, some in RDBMS; use as appropriate"; those can be quite different17:07
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jintyand also different O-R patterns to apply depending on the complexity of the problem17:09
einsrelational databases are easy to maintain, replicate and there are lots of alternatives if you have to repair corrupted databases; I can't say the same about zodb, which is why some people can't afford themself to use zodb17:09
philiKONone thing that RDBs definitely have is a good schema evolution + dump/reload story17:09
philiKONat least better than the zodb17:10
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philiKONand of course, it is questionable whether zope shoudl be in the indexing business17:10
philiKONor whether that shouldn't be left to more equipped systems like RDBs as well17:10
philiKONso, there are a lot of angles to this17:10
einsI think it's quite risky to trust zodb since you may not recover your data if anything..17:11
jintyRDB's also have the ability to be used by other programs written in different languages, in a way that many people know how.17:11
philiKONright. though systems like enfold's whatever-it-is can alleviate this problem17:12
benjieins: I can't agree with you there; it may be because of our institutional knowledge, but we have great success maintianing, replicating, and recovering large ZODBs17:12
philiKONyup, i wouldn't say ZODBs aren't safe17:13
philiKONjust because you get your data in and out via python17:13
philiKONit's just that many people don't feel comfortable with that, i suppose17:13
* jinty searches for enfold's whatever-it-is...17:13
* benji is curious about what enfold's whatever-it-is does17:14
philiKONit's a push mechanism17:15
philiKONyou manage content in plone17:15
philiKONand thru workflow changes it gets pushed out to another system17:15
philiKONfrom which it is published to the internet17:15
philiKONthat publishing could be PHP17:16
philiKONor Zope 317:16
benjiahh, ok17:16
philiKONit's basically, content management and the content publishing is divided into 2 systems17:16
philiKONcontent mangement is plone, content publishing is whatever you want it to be17:16
philiKONand whatever you may feel comfortable with17:16
rockyi really need to try using that at some point ... i'm not convinced yet that it's the wonder pill that alan makes it out to be :)17:21
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scherandOne thing I do not understand for example is the following: If I have a e.g. ZAlchemy Object (class?), let's say a person (since we have lots of persons in our relational DB) do I "map" every RDB-person to a Zope-ZAlchemy-person? So I can access the information about persons through Zope? Or do I create person objects in Zope whenever they are needed but do not store "them" or "a copy of them" in ZODB?17:23
scherandedit: by "access the information about persons through Zope" I mean through the ZMI17:24
philiKONrocky, nah, me neither ;)17:25
scherandedit: and by " do I create person objects in Zope whenever they are needed" I mean "behind the scenes"17:25
philiKONscherand, the object-relational-mapper will create a person object for every database row in the Persons table17:25
einsscherand  and don't use zalchemy:) you probably won't be able to have several sites which hold objects of the same class if you use it, i.e. there is no way to use several sqlalchemy engines for one class17:27
benjibut you wouldn't (normally) store anything in the ZODB for those person objects17:28
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scherandSo these objects the object-relational mapper creates are "volatile" (from the Zope point of view)?17:29
philiKONscherand, yes17:29
scherandThanks, that answers one of my biggest questions righ now :) I think I have to have a look at sqlos then...17:30
philiKONit's great17:31
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scherandOh, one more thing that pops into my mind right now: Can I still edit the attributes of such a "volatile o-r-mapper object" as easy as if it was an object in the zodb (forms for editing the attributes are then created "for free", if I am not mistaken)?17:34
philiKONyes, that's the idea of the o-r-mapper17:35
philiKONyou work with objects, modify them etc.17:35
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philiKONand the o-r-mapper handles the translation into database records17:35
philiKONto formlib etc. it all looks like standard objects wiht attributes17:35
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scherandThis sounds good. I must have misunderstood something when I tried the first time (using ZAlchemy, that is)... Hopefully I will be able to produce better results next time.17:37
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rockyhmm... someone posted a mail to one of the zope3 mailing lists a while back about a product for refresh zope3 views... anyone remember the name of that product?17:42
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philiKONzope 3 reloads wicked fast on non-ppc machines17:59
* philiKON needs to get himself an intel mac17:59
philiKONactually, i think django automatically recognizes changed python modules and simply restarts the whole server, but automatically17:59
philiKONi wonder how much of a hassle that woudl be to implement in zope 317:59
philiKONat a later stage we can optimize it using tres's idea of storing pre-parsed ZCML in byte code for faster (re)loads18:00
rockyjava's use of class loaders is good for this kind of stuff... need to reload code? dump the class loader and start afresh18:00
philiKONyeah, actually, i've heard a lot about java's class laoder and i think this is something where java actually sounds superior to python18:02
ignasphiliKON: how many minutes do you call wicked fast ?18:02
philiKON0.1 minutes18:03
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philiKONmy g4 needs 10 to 20 secs for an average z3 instance18:03
philiKONintel machines are much faster, provided the files are in harddisk cache18:03
ignasoh average z3 instance18:03
ignasas i have some Data.fs files that are not exactly average ...18:04
ignasit's at least 10-20 secs for me too18:04
TheuniphiliKON: weird. my nowadays slow notebook can go down to 4 seconds, if i optimize which products get included.18:05
philiKONyeah, well, macosx :(18:05
philiKONplus, for the book i load an average isntance18:06
philiKONfor other things i cut down, too18:06
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ignaswhy can't Zope3 save Data.fs.index when i stop it with ^C ?18:12
philiKONdoes z2 do that?18:16
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HammerToeanyone seen Jim or Tres, or any other ZODB gurus about?18:38
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