IRC log of #zope3-dev for Thursday, 2006-09-21

floxbenji: i guess whole file  z.a.publisher/xmlrpc/ need to be rewritten00:00
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benjiflox: I don't see why, do you know what the ReNormalizer is and how it works?01:02
floxi just learned01:03
floxi rewrote the tearDown function to get rid of ztapi01:04
floxnothing else01:04
floxbenji: here the rule used01:06
floxRENormalizing(((re.compile('<DateTime \''), '<DateTime u\''),))01:06
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benjilooks good, flox01:10
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benjiflox: (although I would have used something like 12345678 instead of <SOME ADDRESS>; better to keep the doctest looking "realistic")01:25
floxi took it from zope/component/ (l.992)01:26
floxbenji: i tried to be consistent with other package...01:27
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benjiflox: It's not a strong conviction on my part (but it is a strong preference); perhaps a (hopefully short) discussion on zope3-dev is warranted01:30
floxbenji: i try... maybe this is  a misunderstanding of RENormalizing on my side01:34
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floxbenji: ok, my fault :-(01:37
floxbenji: i will do a micro-commit to fix that thing01:37
hazmathow do you model a multi select from a vocabulary? choice seems to be single valued, on a list field passing in a vocab definition as unexpected keyword arguement..01:39
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hazmati see in some promising examples of sourcemultiselect widget.. but its not clear how to configure that for a given list field01:42
philiKONhazmat, List(..., value_type=Choice(...))01:43
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hazmatphiliKON, perfect.. thanks01:44
philiKONmy book has an example01:44
philiKONchapter 16 (or so), vocabularies01:44
hazmatphiliKON, doh.. it does.. pg. 287.. i was reading it too quickly.. and thinking it was out of date..01:44
hazmatand just thought vocab was passed to enclosing list..01:45
* philiKON smacks hazmat with his "out of date" book01:45
hazmat;-) eagerly awaiting das new one..01:45
benjiphiliKON: any chance for a PDF edition?01:46
benji(that's what I'd really like)01:46
philiKONbenji, well, not from me at least01:46
philiKONi know springer has started an ebook library01:46
philiKONbut afaik it's for unis01:46
philiKONnext book i'll write (read: none) will be PDF :)01:47
benjiI like to "read" books on paper, and reffer to them later electronically01:47
benjiheh :)01:47
philiKONianbicking, ayt?01:48
philiKONi'm having trooubles with workingenv01:48
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philiKONianbicking, never mind, was due to an hold global installation of setuptools02:26
philiKONnewer setuptools (global) fixed it02:26
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romanofskimoin eins ;)08:07
einshey romanofski ;)08:07
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febbhi all09:15
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Theunii wonder why <view for=""> requires an interface15:48
Theuniisn't a view just an adapter?15:48
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Theunican't I register adapters also for classes?15:48
srichteryes, you can15:58
philiKONTheuni, just use <adapter />16:03
philiKONview doesn't do anythign more16:03
philiKONwe should deprecate <view /> ;)16:04
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TheuniSo I guess I could also use browser:view if it's a browser view or is that going to get deprecated too?16:41
TheuniJ1m: hooray for the tag!16:41
philiKONTheuni, browser:view can do more than just 'view'16:41
philiKONbrowser:view has the notion of subpages16:42
philiKONbut essentially, browser:page and view can be expressed thru adapters16:42
philiKON(unless you want the menu item stuff that browser:page also give syou)16:42
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Theunisure, but you don't want to declare them as adapters all the time because you want to save typing effort.16:42
philiKONi guess...16:43
philiKONi wonder if there'd be a nicer way to save typing effort16:43
regebroI'd like to see browser:view go away and be split into either doing it directly with adapters, or having simpler high-level things that does a lot in one go.16:49
regebroThat way you can choose. Low-level complete control, loads of typing, or high-level, not as much control, but simple to understand.16:49
J1mTheuni: philiKON I uploaded the source release, if anyone wants to play with it.16:50
J1mI'm working on the windows release now.16:50
philiKONlater tonight16:50
regebroWhen philiKON made his suggestion of getting rid or browser:view, I made "Hello!" a product that shows how better browser:view statemenst could look.16:50
philiKONregebro, you mean browser:page, right?16:50
regebroYes. I mean browser page.16:51
regebroOn the other hand, what I said goes for most ZCML stuff that can be expressed as adapters. :-)16:51
philiKONi'd prefer if we used adapter for all of that16:52
philiKONand provided some way of automation to save typing16:52
philiKON<group for="* zope.publisher.interfaces.IBrowserRequest">16:52
philiKON    <adapter ... />16:52
philiKON    <adapter ... />16:52
* J1m wants to investigate creating configuration actions in Python before doing much more w zcml.16:53
philiKONyup, or that16:54
philiKONthen we get automation on the pyton level16:54
philiKONand can possibly express actions any other way16:54
J1mphiliKON: on a different note, I think we should investigate whether it's practical to make a namespace package.16:54
J1mthen we wouldn't have to move things out.16:54
regebroWell, as long as we still can do overrides in goo ways, I don't mind doing things in python.16:54
philiKONJ1m, hmm16:54
J1mregebro: that's why I said configuration actions.16:54
J1mOverrides would then work.16:54
regebroJ1m: That's what I hoped it meant. :-)16:55
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faassenJ1m: configuration actions in Python would help the grok work, I imagine.17:25
faassenJ1m: as I told you yesterday, we're having a mini sprint at Gocept in october about it.17:26
faassenJ1m: dunno whether you missed that or not.17:26
J1mI saw that17:26
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J1mfaassen: did you notice the new buildout and testrunner recipe releases?17:33
faassenJ1m: hm, no, unfortunately the cheeseshop doesn't seem to show release dates.17:34
faassenJ1m: which makes it hard to know whether there is a new release unless you remember the version number. :)17:34
benji(or subscribe to the RSS feed)17:34
faassenah, cool, a testrunner default option thing.17:34
faassenbenji: true, I should do that.17:34
J1malso, the documentation now shows some simple examples.17:35
J1mNotice that my PyPI releases tend yo put full documentation on the project page. :)17:35
faassenJ1m: yeah, I noticed. :)17:35
faassenJ1m: do we have a way to manipulate the LD_LIBRARY_PATH of the Zope 3 instance runzope script generated by buildout?17:36
faassenJ1m: oh, wait, that doesn't work.17:36
faassenJ1m: anyway, my main problem is, if I have a C library like openldap or libxml2.17:36
faassenJ1m: what would be the best way to make sure that ones script knows about them? for oooconv we wrote this wrapper script, but that's very frustrating. :)17:36
J1mIf you build them yourself, you can use the rpath option.17:37
J1mrecipe = zc.recipe.egg:custom17:37
J1megg = SpreadModule ==1.417:37
J1mfind-links =
J1minclude-dirs = ${buildout:directory}/parts/spreadtoolkit/include17:37
J1mlibrary-dirs = ${buildout:directory}/parts/spreadtoolkit/lib17:37
J1mrpath = ${buildout:directory}/parts/spreadtoolkit/lib17:37
faassenah, that's an interesting example.17:37
J1mIt puts the resulting egg in develop-eggs.17:38
faassenso iwhen building the python binding, you use an rpath option referencing the library.17:38
faassenthat ought to work.17:38
J1mYou can then refer to it in another part that builds a script.17:38
J1mrecipe = zc.recipe.egg17:38
J1meggs =17:38
J1m   zrscontrol17:38
J1m   StandbyStorage ==1.4.1-zcfix17:38
J1m   ZODB3 ==3.2.1017:38
J1m   SpreadModule ==1.417:38
faassenrefer to what17:39
* philiKON grumbles... what good is setuptools if the thing you want to package up isn't packageable as eggs17:40
faassenmaybe I don't understand the custom egg story yet.17:40
philiKONi just rant into this today17:40
faassenphiliKON: I ran into it yesterday. :)17:40
J1mso the second example refers to the spreadmodule egg I creayed in the first (custom) example.17:40
faassenah, right, so the first example *creates* an egg.17:40
faassenan egg for the SpreadModule.17:41
J1mThe StandbyStorage reference in the first example refers to a source release, not an egg.17:41
faassenwhich has no, instead that's done in buildout.cfg?17:41
J1msorrry SpreadModule.17:41
J1mNo, SpreadModule has a
faassenand that, could it have any cruft in the world?17:41
J1mThe custom recipe downloads a source release and runs its setup.py17:41
J1mI dunno :)17:42
faassenwell, okay, it sounds like taht's good news for th python-ldap module.17:42
faassenI was not looking forward turning that into a real egg.17:42
faassenbut I could use this custom egg strategy.17:42
J1manyway, the custom recipe lets you specify build_ext options.17:42
faassenthat's good.17:42
faassenconcerning building pure C libraries..17:42
faassenyou'd just set it up as a part.17:42
faassenuse the custom egg recipe and use rpath.17:43
J1mrecipe = zc.recipe.cmmi17:43
J1murl =
faassenoh, cmmi is configure/make/make install?17:43
faassenoh, cool, I hadn't realized.17:43
J1mI need to release it as an egg.17:43
faassenthanks, J1m, you just make my work easier. :)17:43
J1mI had to use it as a develop egg, since I haven't released it.17:43
J1mThat's my job.17:44
faassenI know how to do that for the time being.17:44
* faassen grins.17:44
faassento make Martijn's work easier, huh?17:44
faassenoh, that's good to know. :)17:44
faassennow if I make your job easier sometimes, we'll make our jobs so easy we're not necessary anymore.17:45
faassenin a recursive whirlwind.17:45
J1mThne we can use the time machine to go back to when we were useful.17:46
faassengood point, I still have the key.17:47
J1mBTW, Acquisition is still a Good Thing and used by Zope 3.17:48
J1mIt is implicit acquisition that was a mistake.17:48
* philiKON agrees17:49
philiKONalso, aq wrappers suck17:49
philiKONbut were a necessary evil i guess17:49
J1mYou couldn't play acquisition pinball without them. :)17:49
faassensure, but it's clear in my keynote Jim was working on implicit acquisition. :)17:50
J1mIt is implicit in your keynote.17:50
faassenthe other one is just called 'local components' in Zope 3 parlance, it appears.17:50
philiKONi sort of talked about this briefly in my talk17:51
philiKONMy #9 tip17:51
faassenyeah, philiKON was on message. :)17:51
philiKON"Acquire via the CA"17:51
philiKONolder version of the talk:
philiKONslides that are used in the talk will be online at some point on zope.de17:52
philiKON(wink Theuni)17:52
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faassenJ1m: any idea on how I convince zc.recipe.egg:custom (or something) on digging up a tarball?19:02
faassenJ1m: I tried putting the tarball locally, making an index page referencing to it, refering to that with index =19:03
faassenJ1m: still it refuses to do anything with the tarball.19:03
faassenit's probably some kind of obscure easy_install rule that I need to obey.19:04
faassenrecipe = zc.recipe.egg:custom19:04
faassenegg = python-ldap19:04
faassenindex = file:///home/faassen/buildout/index.html19:04
faasseninclude-dirs = ${buildout:directory}/parts/openldap/include19:04
faassenlibrary-dirs = $(buildout:directory}/parts/openldap/lib19:04
faassenrpath = $(buildout:directory)/parts/openldap/lib19:04
faassenis what I got.19:04
faassenand then index.html has this:19:04
faassen<a href="file:///home/faassen/buildout/python-ldap-2.2.0.tar.gz">python-ldap-2.2.0.tar.gz</a>19:05
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ianbickingfaassen: I think index is a PyPI-like index; you want something like find-links?  Not sure if buildout uses the same names as easy_install, though19:14
faassenianbicking: they're basically passed along to setuptools. yes, find-links is there.19:14
faassenianbicking: I tried that first.19:14
faassenianbicking: it's just that it's not finding it. sourceforge being evil with stuff, I made it local, pointing find-links to a local directory, but no go.19:15
faassenianbicking: hm, possibly I need to put it onto a local webserver.19:15
faassenianbicking: I'll try that.19:15
WebMavenjinty: ping19:18
jintyhey Webmaven19:18
jintygood or bad news?19:18
regebroAre there any ZODB gurus in europe? I have an acquiantance that needs one. (for money)19:19
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regebroThey have the same problem that was up some week ago, that the index gets corrupted, and the database is so big that rebuilding it takes hours.19:20
faassenregebro: Dieter Maurer19:20
regebroOK, cool, thanks.19:20
faassenregebro: also the guy who did directorystorage, perhaps.19:20
regebroShould have expected him to be a total ZODB guru as well. :-)19:20
regebroToby Dickensen?19:21
faassenDickingson or something like that, yeah.19:21
faassenianbicking: okay, that didn't help either (making it point to localhost to find its link)19:22
regebroOK, thanks faassen19:23
ianbickingfaassen: sorry, I've been wandering around.  Newer versions of setuptools are supposed to understand file://, but I haven't tried it.19:32
ianbickingthe link looks right to me (python-ldap-2.2.0.tar.gz)19:32
ianbickingit's what setuptools expects, assuming you are trying to installl "python-ldap"19:33
ianbickingcan you see how buildout is invoking easy_install?19:33
faassenianbicking: it's invoking it through code, so I'd need to use a debugger.19:34
ianbickingmmm... J1m should log something then, so people can use their easy_install-fu to figure out the problems ;)19:36
faassenyeah. :)19:37
faassenit claims this:19:38
faassenzc.buildout.easy_install: Getting new distribution for python-ldap19:38
faassenError: Couln't find a distribution for python-ldap.19:38
faassenthat message seems to be generated by buildout itself.19:38
ianbickinganother option, if you have a package that depends on python-ldap, is that you can put in distribution_links=["direct_link"] in setup() in that package19:38
faassenin, zc.buildout.easy_install :)19:38
ianbickingbut if you are hacking around SF that's probably not a good solution19:39
faassenianbicking: what does that do?19:39
ianbickingit basically adds something like --find-links, that will be applied to any requirements for that package19:39
ianbickingso if your package requires something that someone else hasn't publically registered, you can list it there19:39
faassenso distribution_links=["http://foobar.source/foo.tgz"]19:40
ianbickingyes, I'm pretty sure that's right19:40
faassenah, apparently if I set the log level to debug..19:41
faassenI might get some more output.19:41
faassenyeah, lots more output.19:41
faassenlet's see what it tells me now.19:41
faassenthanks Jim for using the time machine.19:41
faassenstupid I didn't think of that befor.e19:41
ianbickingwell, good luck, off to lunch for me19:42
faassensee you! thanks. :)19:42
faassenI'm out of here, I'll try to figure this out tomorrow. :)19:51
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mgedminso, if I want to define a view that can be accessed from TALES expressions via context/@@name, but is not accessible from a URL, ...22:05
mgedmin... should I use <zope:view> or <browser:view> ?22:05
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philiKONmgedmin, either one. just not <browser:page>22:11
philiKON@@absolute_url is a <browser:view> afaik22:11
mgedmingood, I just wondered if <browser:view> had any harmful magic other than specifying the request type22:11
philiKON<browser:view> does more than just <view>+interface22:11
philiKONit allows subpages22:11
philiKONwhile someobj/@@browserview by itself is not publishable22:12
philiKONbrowser:view + subpages is a relic from the times when we didn't really understand views, i think22:12
mgedminok, now I have to go read the sources of the <browser:view> handler :/22:12
mgedminor just use <zope:view> and not worry about it ;)22:12
philiKONi think the whole pages thing was an attempt to model what we now do with update() and render()22:13
philiKONdef __call__(self):22:13
philiKON    self.update()22:13
philiKON    return self.render()22:13
philiKONso, with browser:view + subpages, you might have the form action and the form itself be separate things, for example22:13
philiKONthat's at least how i udnerstood this22:13
philiKONit's been a long time :)22:14
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srichterbrowser page is invaluable, unless you use z3c.viewtemplate22:25
mgedminwhat's z3c.viewtemplate?22:26
philiKONsrichter, we weren't really talking about browser:page22:28
philiKONsrichter, viewtemplate looks abit like namedtemplates...22:29
srichterexcept that namedtemplates don't work22:30
srichteror at least too complicated22:30
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srichterand it is far too Python-oriented22:31
philiKONhum, ok22:31
srichterit does not work for a situation where you work with designers and template scripters22:31
philiKONi'm actually starting to dislike pagetemplates in general22:31
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philiKONlong story22:32
srichterwhat do you prefer instead?22:32
philiKONmeld3 or twiddler look very appealing22:32
srichter(btw, Roger and I will implement a very minimal PT implementation that only supports attribute lookup on the view)22:32
philiKONbasically, the template has NO logic22:32
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srichtermeld3 has no i18n support22:32
philiKONsrichter, you provide the i18n :)22:32
srichterrighhhht, in Python...22:33
srichterforget it22:33
srichterthat only works if you have one developer doing templating and Python22:33
philiKONau contraire22:33
philiKONthe designer can do "dummies"22:33
philiKONthat's what they like best22:34
philiKONall the actual dynamics are outside the template22:34
philiKONi consider i18n to be dynamics22:34
srichternot me22:34
philiKONthat's cool. then we have different views :)22:34
srichterand my wife would tell you from a linguist/translator side that she would hate it too22:34
philiKONnot sure what she would have to do with the templates22:35
philiKONbtw, there could be lots of automation for i18n in meld322:35
philiKONto the point where it becomes as easy as in zpt22:35
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srichterok, never mind, I just think that the current Zope 3 direction concerning UI is very misguided, because only developers think about it; and I have learned this only after having to work in a larger environment, which is new to me as well22:36
philiKONi mean, the important thing is the tagging22:36
philiKONsrichter, i'm currently working in a pretty large environment, with people who know squat about zpt22:36
philiKONand yet have to work with22:36
philiKONthe barrier for them is so high22:37
philiKONthey're good designers, but they mess everything up22:37
philiKONbecause they cna't grasp the macro structure22:37
philiKONfor instance22:37
philiKONand while the viewlets approach is nice, it's even more complicated for them to grasp22:37
philiKONdesigners want to create HTML pages22:37
philiKONso, meld3 and twiddler let them do that22:37
philiKONlater, you come in and write some python to dynamicize it22:38
philiKONif we'd be using that approach in our current project, lots of things were easier. alas, we can't22:38
mgedminit took me quite a while to grasp the macro structure of page templates22:39
mgedminthe interaction with name scopes is unobvious22:39
J1mmacros were a mistake22:40
* mgedmin finds macros useful to reduce copy & paste duplication in page templates, once you get your brain aligned in the right way22:41
philiKONJ1m, btw, i fell in love with ian's workingenv yesterday22:42
philiKONand, for its simplicity and Zope's lack of support for instance-local eggs, i'm covering it in the book now22:42
* mgedmin was disappointed that setuptools didn't make it into python 2.522:43
* mgedmin hoped for egg support out-of-the-box22:43
philiKONyeah, what was that all about?22:43
rockypossibly it's pre 1.0 status ?22:45
philiKONpje could've easily release 1.0 :)22:45
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harobedI learn Zope, can I "play" with Container, Contained, BTree... in python interactive command ?22:53
srichterharobed: yep22:54
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harobedI've this code :
harobedHow can I add BlogEntry in Blog ?22:56
harobedblog1.append(post1) ?22:56
harobedI play with this code :
philiKONharobed, blog1['post1'] = post122:57
philiKONharobed, IContainers are like dictionaries22:57
harobedok, I try it22:57
philiKONharobed, the interfaces are there to tell you about the API of objects22:57
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harobedok, it works22:59
philiKONof course it does22:59
J1mphiliKON: I found lots of setuptools bugs working on buildout23:00
philiKONcan imagine23:00
J1mso it wasn't ready for 2.5 imo23:00
J1mPlus we're still learning how to use it.23:00
philiKONthat i agree on23:00
harobeddo you know a french zope user who can been my mentor ?23:01
J1mA whole lot of people are building buildout/workingenv-like things because easy install doesn't capture a lot of important use cases.23:01
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J1mHonestly, I'd rather see most of setuptools live outside of Python and see Python contain just enough to make setuptools run well.23:05
jintyhmm, it seems that requests lose their skin on publisher retry... anyone got an idea how make a test for that?23:06
philiKONjinty, hah, we just had that problem on zope 223:06
philiKONjinty, alecm wrote tests for it, not sure if they help at all for z323:07
jintywell, it's on zope 3 now as well;)23:07
philiKONamazing, zope 2 fixed something before zope 3 :)23:07
philiKON(and it's a zope 3 related thing, even)23:07
alecmWe plone people are using zope 3 as much as we can these days :-)23:08
* philiKON envisions lots of zc.*, z3c.*, plone.* etc. packages flooding the cheeseshop soon23:09
* rocky does a happy dance for plone23:11
harobedit's normal thant contraint don't work in python interactive command ?23:11
* philiKON dances 'round the stake for CPS23:11
* benji would dance, but his wife advises against it23:12
philiKONwhat a poor excuse23:12
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benjiheh :)23:14
rockywell... my wife is upstairs so i had no problem ;)23:15
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* philiKON does a happy dance for benji 23:15
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jintyphiliKON: any reason for setDefaultSkin(request) to be in zope/app/publication/ and not in the BrowserRequest's __init__?23:20
philiKONjinty, hmm, because it's a policy thing23:20
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jintyphiliKON: hmm, ok, then I guess I'll just file an issue23:22
srichterJ1m: to go back a bit, I found a new usage for macros; our designers asked us that all view snippets for a particular concept (like user) be in one template. So we use macros to mark each snippet and then connect them to viewlets; we are not using use-macro, just define-macro23:25
harobedI need First Head Zope book :)23:27
philiKONharobed, http://worldcookery.com23:27
harobedit's like Zope3book, isn't it ?23:28 is  more for the beginner23:29
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philiKONthere are also some tutorials under "Appetziers"23:30
harobedcan I buy PDF version ?23:31
philiKONsorry, no23:32
harobedZope 3 Developer's Handbook is Zope3Book ?23:33
xenruphiliKON: may be community can purchase from you to open this book?23:35
philiKONxenru, i'm not sure i understand23:35
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harobedphiliKON, you are authors ?23:36
xenruyou saw that Nuxeo swith to Java bacause they cann't find enought zope developers for them and clients23:36
xenruyour book is best to start23:37
harobedxenru, it's right ?23:37
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philiKONi never said anything about clients23:37
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xenruNuxeu said23:38
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benjiFWIW, I am persuaded that training good Python developers on Zope 3 isn't that hard, so hiring "Zope 3 people" can (often) be reduced to hiring "Python people"23:40
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philiKONof course23:40
philiKONjust find python people :)23:41
philiKONnot that easy, but certainly easier23:41
philiKONin fact, i'd prefer to hire python people than zope people, for zope 3 that is23:41
benjiI do wish it was a little easier to find really smart Python people, though :)23:41
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harobedPython is easy but learn Zope 3 is very diffucult23:43
xenruanyway Philipps book is best :)23:44
harobedok, I buy it now on french amazon23:46
philiKONthanks, now i can buy dinner ;)23:46
harobedI hope it will can help me to learn Zope 323:47
philiKONi hope so too23:47
xenruharobed: yes it can help you23:47
philiKONplease let me know how you like the book23:47
WebMavenbenji: Smart people are always hard to find.23:49
benjitoo true23:49
benjithey should be forced to register with the government or something23:49
WebMavenIt's a little easier to figure out which the smart ones are with Python than say, with PHP.23:50
benjiheh :)23:50
* edgordon is sad for the first time about not having to register w/ the government23:50
WebMavenNo, I wasn't making a joke. There *are* smart PHP devs.23:50
xenruWebMaven: may be some of them read python spec ;)23:51
harobedphiliKON, your book not speak about Catalog ?23:51
benjiyep, I agree WebMaven23:51
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philiKONharobed, no. when i wrote the book, there was no catalog yet23:51
benjiharobed: the docs are pretty good; see zope/app/catalog/README.txt23:52
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harobedthere are french zope 3 community ?23:54
harobedbenji, ok, thanks23:54
harobedmy purchase is done :)23:54
edgordoni really wish the big book chains carried either of the z3 books in-store23:55
*** timte has quit IRC23:56 is the biggest book chain.23:56
benjiedgordon: I've seen both at my local borders... perhaps they knew they were in the same town as ZC and wanted to impress us :)23:57
edgordonyeah, i have never seen either23:57
harobedxenru, if Nuxeo going to Java it's only because Zope hacker is difficult to found23:57
edgordonguess Atlanta isn't a hotbed of z3 activity. or maybe it is just always sold out.23:58
harobedxenru, or is it because Zope issue ?23:58
WebMavenedgordon: for most boooks that are carried by a store's distributor, you can order the book for no extra money. They even won't necessarily make you buy it.23:59
philiKONharobed, read the faq at nuxeo.com23:59

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