IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2007-05-04

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goplusmy zope 3.4.0a1 runs with python2.5.1 now01:47
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Theunii *would* go to bed if i knew the script was running cleanly02:15
Theunii don't want to watch this the whole night. *gaah*02:16
Theuniremote svn repositories are annoying02:16
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* Theuni continues tomorrow morning02:18
* romanofski could continue do watching the script output for another 6 hours ;)02:19
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bjdhi, just got some questions about replicating objects between zope instances09:32
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bjdhi, i'm trying to find out if the StandbyStorage product exists10:22
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Theunihmm how do you know its name if it shouldn't exist?10:28
bjdi found references to it on google from 2002, but I searching did not produce any hits10:28
Theunithen it likely doesn't exist. the name does not ring a bell for me.10:29
bjdok, thanks - I didn't want to re-invent the wheel unless I had to10:29
Theuniwhat does standbystorage do?10:31
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* timte is also curious10:31
bjdit replicates zope objects between zodbs10:31
bjdbut not using ZRS10:31
Theunithere is a project that i'm working on called 'gocept.zeoraid' that aims to do something similar10:32
Theuniit's on hold right now because I don't have time to work on it, but it will be continued10:32
bjdi just had a quick look - i think what I'm looking for is probably something simpler10:32
bjdthe standbystorage looks like it did what I want10:33
bjdbasically, it mirrors objects from one zodb to another10:33
bjdi even found references to where people said it was being used in production... but then nothing else10:34
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bjdmaybe zope corp have rolled it into ZRS10:35
Theuniwell, it's part of what zrs does10:35
Theuniand it's also part of what zeoraid does10:35
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timteTheuni: gotta ask, what's satellite?  :)11:14
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J1mTheuni, StandbyStorage is another name for ZRS 1.11:36
J1mToo bad bjd left.11:37
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Theunigood morning btw11:42
J1mGood afternoon.11:42
Theuniuhmm. what is it at your place?11:43
J1m12:45pm I believe.  I'm in Europe for a few days. :)11:44
Theuniit's 10:44 in germany11:44
J1moh, oops11:44
J1mthen it's 10:44 here.11:44
Theunii was expecting it to be 5am at your place ;)11:44
J1mYou would normally be right.11:45
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timteWhere do I download
timtedidn't find a link on cheese shop, but found a link on
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J1mtimte, I though the buildout docs gave a link to this.12:07
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J1mI guess not. :(12:08
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Theunitimte: the term `satellite` came up for those packages that currently live in the classic Zope 3 tree and are being moved out of there but kept as externals so we can still keep the existing release infrastructure for the classic releases.12:45
TheuniJ1m: btw, did you ever get around updating the subversion server code?12:46
J1mTheuni, I think so.  I don't remember. :)12:48
J1mHm, I guess not.12:49
TheuniOk, just good to know.12:51
ka-joddoes anybody know why does no longer sell "Web Component Development with Zope 3" (second ed.) by Philipp von Weitershausen ?12:51
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ka-jod... is a third edition about to appear soon?12:51
TheuniOur mirror is set up and would be available as soon as you switch the repository. Whenever you get to it, i'd appreciate a ping ;)12:52
Theunika-jod: no12:52
ka-jodTheuni: i.e. no 3rd edition?12:52
ka-joduh oh... will be forced to buy a _used_ one then... i hate used books12:52
Theuniat least i don't know that any is planned and definitely not in a time frame that would justify not selling the 2nd edition any more12:53
Theuniyou should be able to buy it from springer12:53
ka-jodah, thx !!!12:53
Theunithe packages that can be moved mechanically from the Zope 3 tree should be done in about 10-15 minutes12:53
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Theuniafter that its about 16 packages that need manual care-taking :/12:55
Theunibtw: i'll leave the deprecated* packages in the tree12:56
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J1mTheuni, I'll plan to update subversion this weekend.13:09
ka-jodTheuni: thanks again for the tip, i recently moved from stockholm to berlin so i'm not yet too aqcuainted with facilities in this country13:10
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TheuniJ1m: ok, cool.13:48
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* baijum (Future, some forecasts :)14:32
* baijum Q: hey, what is Zope 3 ?14:32
* baijum A: There is nothing called Zope 3 now !14:32
* baijum Q: then, What is this Zope ?14:32
* baijum A: Zope is a set of libraries and frameworks, visit nice :)14:32
* baijum Q: btw, why are you hanging in this #zope3-dev channel ?14:32
* baijum A: just to redirect you to #zope channel14:32
* baijum ... the discussion stopped there, now I am alone in this channel :(14:32
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Theunii can lurk around with you together ;)14:34
Theunika-jod: moved here for working? i thought germans go to sweden for work. :)14:35
ka-jodTheuni: move here to live14:36
ka-jodwas working too much in stockholm14:36
ka-jod"arm aber sexy" better than "rich but tired"14:36
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Theuniheh :)14:39
Theuniyou know that there's a zope conference coming up in June next to berlin, right? :)14:39
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ka-jodpotsdam yeah... seriously considering that14:46
Theuniwe do have a zope 3 sprint there :)14:47
ka-jodi've just recently begun to investigate z314:47
ka-jodoh... you're a gold sponsor14:49
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ignasthere is a #zope channel?15:08
baijumignas, yup15:08
* philiKON wonders if ignas is being serious or not15:08
ignasjust that it seems so strange ;)15:09
* ignas has never done anything with zope215:09
ignasso i was living in Zope3 world all the time ...15:09
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CrippsFXignas: that makes two of us (at least) :)15:35
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baijumTheuni, I am going to remove setup.cfg from satellite projects' trunk, is it ok ?15:36
Theunii'm not sure yet ;)15:36
Theunidoing continuous releases might be a pain then15:36
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philiKONwhy remove setup.cfg?15:41
baijumDo we really want to support "continuous releases" ?15:42
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philiKONwhy  not15:44
philiKONthey're not so much a pain as everybody thinks they are15:44
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baijumphiliKON, I always find it difficult to make point releases, so I simply remove setup.cfg from checkout and make release.. If we wan to support "continuous releases", I have no problem, let setup.cfg be there..15:48
philiKONyou don't need to remove setup.cfg15:48
baijumI know..from this mail:
* baijum is lazy ... don't want to remember those commands :)15:49
philiKONthen  make an alias15:49
philiKONyou can create distutils aliases15:50
philiKONrelease = "-r sdist bdist_egg15:50
philiKONor something like that15:50
philiKONthen you can do python release15:50
CrippsFXphiliKON: Newfie is making fun of you in another channel. I think you should flame him :P15:54
* baijum cannot find any counter arguments than Jim's mail :(
* CrippsFX buggers off to continue working.15:55
philiKONCrippsFX: aha... well, making fun of me isn't forbidden :)15:55
CrippsFXphiliKON: awesome :P15:55
philiKONbaijum: well, i don't find continous releases yagni15:56
philiKONthat's it15:56
CrippsFXphiliKON: thanks for taking the time to write out those tutorials. They're coming in pretty handy :)15:56
TheuniI'm not sure if I pointed this out loud enough, but here's my vision if we want to use setuptools right - IMHO from my understanding:15:56
Theuniif zope.somepackage is developed *towards* the general 13.3 release on the trunk, then we put in "13.3.0a1" as the release number in the setup.py15:57
TheuniWhen making a continuous release while developing we do:15:57
Theunipython egg_info sdist15:58
TheuniThis will end up with an egg called ``15:58
TheuniAn alternative would be to do `13.3` as the version and make `13.3dev-r123` releases15:58
Theunithose actually are older than possible `13.3.0a1` packages so it comes down to the same behaviour15:58
Theunii would like not to see `3.4dev` to be put into the setup.py15:59
Theunithats what setuptools tell15:59
philiKONfair enough16:03
Theunibtw: i'm also thinking about setting up a stupid test runner for the satellite projects16:04
Theunisomething like: walk all top-level folders in subversion. if they have: a trunk, a bootstrap, buildout.cfg and, then check them out, bootstrap and buildout them and then run the tests.16:05
Theuniotherwise we'll loose track soon of the individual projects especially if the Zope 3 tree will not track the trunk of the individual projects16:05
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* baijum just checked out 'main' non-recursively (-N option) and updated individual project trunks non-recursively (svn up -N) inside that ...16:10
* baijum this way I can commit to all trunks together , if required16:11
TheuniI'm not sure that sounds right ;)16:12
baijumTheuni, why ?16:13
baijumif I want to commit similar changes to multiple trunks ?16:14
baijumhmm.. I have to check out trunk recursively ...16:17
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srichterTheuni: you are making my life very hard right now ;-\16:31
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srichterTheuni: it will become a nightmare to check out the Zope 3 trunk after you are done16:31
srichterI am okay with the intend, but the problem is that there is no documentation on what the new recommened way of development is16:32
TheuniI know. I have the points in my head and am really anxious to write them down.16:34
TheuniIf you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer them.16:34
TheuniDevelopment isn't going to be that much of a pain once one is used to it.16:34
TheuniAnd once the whole situation stabilized.16:34
srichterwell, I do not have specific questions, because I do not knwo where to start16:35
goplusphilikon: hi, are you planning to fix that nasty_exception_str-thing in zope.documenttemplate.ustr for python2.5?16:35
srichterI followed Jim's PyCon tutorial and I can create and upload an egg for a simple package, like z3c.rml now16:35
srichternot that I am fluent with it, but it is only a matter of practice16:36
philiKONgoplus: somebody who will port zope to python 2.5 probably will16:36
srichterwhat I do not know how to do is how to create a egg-based project, where I have a multitude of packages I need16:36
srichterand how to switch to a development egg, work on it, check it in, create a release later and update my env to use the released version16:36
philiKONlet's say you're developing a new package16:37
philiKONand it depends on a bucnh of other eggs16:37
philiKONyou simply state those dependencies in setup.py16:37
srichterwell, I am starting a project16:37
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philiKONand when you do develop, easy_install is pulling in those dependencies16:37
srichterI usually have a base set of packages that I am using16:38
philiKONsure, but the reason you need them is that your code depends on them16:38
srichterI first need to get to the point where I can have a base set of packages and can start up Zope16:38
philiKONyou're looking at this from the wrong angle :)16:38
srichterbut that is thinking backwards16:39
srichterno, I am looking at it from I need to do real-life work16:39
philiKONi could also argue you're thinking backwards :)16:39
Theunioh, wait.16:39
philiKONwell, real-life work for me is writing code that happens to have dependecies16:39
philiKONsuch as zope16:39
srichterlet's look at Ooperating Systems16:39
Theunisrichter: are you trying to develop a Zope application or make modifications to the Zope packages?16:39
philiKONzope's not an operating system16:39
srichterwhen I install an OS, I am not coming along and say, I want to use OpenOffice, install the rest16:40
srichterI say, install Linux with some of the basics, then we will see what I need16:40
srichterTheuni: develop a new Zope application16:40
TheuniSo one thing is, nothing changes for now.16:40
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TheuniYou can keep checking out the Zope 3 tree as usual.16:40
srichterbut checking out and updating the Zope 3 tree becomes extremely painful now16:41
TheuniIf you want, you can switch to egg-based development. But if you're not yet comfortable with that, you don't have to.16:41
philiKONbut that doesn't have anything to do with developing a zope app16:41
srichterbecause of all the externals it will take forever16:41
philiKONyou don't really need a *checkout* of zope16:41
philiKONyou just need zope16:41
philiKONin whatever form16:41
* Theuni pushes philiKON back a bit ;)16:41
philiKON(e.g. eggs)16:41
ignashmm, for schooltool we are planning to have a meta egg16:41
ignasthat pulls the standard set16:41
ignasrequired to run the server and look around16:41
ignaswith ability to pull in more plugins as eggs16:42
Theunisrichter: Right. This is an inconvenience if you use a checkout. If you're using a release this won't matter. ;)16:42
srichterTheuni: who uses releases?16:42
TheuniWell, as we have eggs around, I do.16:42
TheuniI didn't use traditional releases.16:42
srichterI don't :-)16:42
philiKONi do16:42
TheuniWhen moving to eggs you will ;)16:42
philiKONlots of people do16:42
ignasi do now, (eggs)16:42
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TheuniIf you want to use Zope from eggs, you'll probably want to enjoy some assistance from e.g. zc.buildout.16:43
srichterwell, eggs mitigate that, because I can fix sub-pacakges easily16:43
srichterbut remember, I am not using eggs yet16:43
srichterwhcih started that discussion16:43
srichterI would like to16:43
TheuniYou would like to use eggs?16:43
philiKONthat's what i've trying to explain16:44
srichteryes, of course16:44
ignassrichter: schooltool is moving away from a checkout, and we are using a checkout with a stub that is used to pull the dependencies only16:44
TheuniGood. Then forget about the checkout.16:44
ignasaway from Zope3 checkout16:44
philiKONTheuni: perhaps i ican take over again :)16:44
philiKONnow that we're back where i was 2 minutes ago :)16:44
* Theuni goes off fixing the checkout trunk anyway.16:44
ignastime  travel ;)16:44
philiKONlet's say  you're developing a python package. you specify all its dependencies in setup.py16:45
Theuniyou've got the timetravel module! give it to me! miiiinee!16:45
philiKONthose dependencies happen to include zope.* eggs16:45
philiKONnow you say develop16:45
philiKONwhich will pull in all this package's dependencies16:45
philiKONthat includes zope16:45
TheuniphiliKON:  is this python package an application (instead of a library)?16:45
philiKONdoesn't really matter16:45
philiKONcould be an app16:45
Theuni(You might want to try to differentiate, it might make it easier to understand ... ;) )16:46
* Theuni shuts up again16:46
* philiKON disagrees16:46
philiKONbut yeah, let's say that package represents an app16:46
philiKONso, it pulls in all of the zope eggs16:46
philiKONnow you satisfy the import dependencies16:46
philiKONthe next thing is how to get an "instance"16:47
philiKONthis is where tools like zc.buldout help16:47
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philiKONsrichter: take a look at
philiKONit's a version of zwiki that pulls in zope via eggs16:49
philiKONand makes an instance via zc.buildout16:49
meatballhatTheuni: that's what it's there for  ;-)16:50
srichterone package usually does not represent an app16:50
* Theuni waits for the man with the nachohat16:50
srichterusually we have a namespace that does16:50
srichteror a set of packages similarly named to keep structure flat16:50
Theunisrichter: there is a pattern that uses a kind of application-app that pulls those together, e.g. with customer-specific extensions16:50
philiKONsrichter: that's ok16:51
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philiKONsrichter: you could have mutliple packages. but the point is that their dependencies in the end install zope16:51
srichterphiliKON: right, I get that; I just claim this is backward to how you think about stuff16:51
philiKONit is backward from how we *used* to think about stuff16:52
srichterwhen I start a project I start writing a huge README.txt that discusses the initial model and business logic16:52
srichterI would hate to have to think about dependencies at that point16:52
philiKONi'm not sure how you have to think about deps when writing rEADME.txt16:52
srichterso I guess having a standard project creator sort of thing would be really useful16:52
srichteror some other template16:52
philiKONfrom paste script16:52
philiKONdoes this nicely16:53
philiKONplone uses it16:53
baijumWell, I have a question related to development process of Zope itself...16:53
baijumHow do I do development of Zope itself which involves changes in many packages?16:53
baijumSuppose I am introducing some deprecation, which also involves changes in more package, how do I handle this case?16:53
philiKONi mean, the plone people use it16:53
CrippsFXI have some code for a custom widget pasted here( ), the issue I'm having is that my _validate() method doesn't seem to raise an error when it's supposed to (i.e. for an IP I put, so it should raise the InvalidOctetException, which is a custom exception, but it doesn't). Can someone take a look at my code and help me to figure out what I'm missing?16:53
Theunibaijum: hmm. that question is interesting. We're kind of heading away from deprecation as a tool.16:53
philiKONanyway, afk for a while16:53
Theunibaijum: the thing is: with eggs, you develop that one package. that's it. if other packages depend on it, they have to (with respect to the version dependencies) get udpated in a second step.16:54
CrippsFX(and in the code: s/"import re"//g )16:54
baijumTheuni, ah. ok16:54
srichterbaijum: the short answer is: developing Zope itself becomes somewhat more painful; luckily you can switch all packages to develop status, as far as I understand it16:55
srichterbaijum: so after a large reorganization, you have to create a bunch of releases16:55
srichterI am hoping that we will build tools for this16:55
Theuniwe do have tools for this16:55
Theunithe thing is to stop thinking about zope itself as one large thing.16:56
TheuniIf you go like: Well, I want to make the publisher better, you start developing a new version of hte publisher.16:56
TheuniThe next thing would be: Well. I want those other things that use the publisher make use of the new version.16:56
Theunibut they could as well keep using the old publisher.16:56
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TheuniThe interesting part is when you introduce incompatible changes, because you want to avoid conflicts in the dependency set.16:57
srichterthat's easy to say, but not very practical; Zope afterall still has to start up as a whole16:57
Theuniwhatever "a whole" is ;)16:57
Theuniwhen talking about the Zope 3 tree, then yes.16:57
TheuniBut that's what the tree is for.16:58
TheuniThat's easy to check.16:58
TheuniThe tree uses externals that have to be updated manually from the maintainers of the tree.16:58
TheuniHopefully Zope 3.5 or Zope 3.6 will move to a "classical" release that uses eggs as well.16:58
srichterbtw, I just looked at the experimental-zwiki buildout.cfg and I am shocked16:59
srichterare we really developing site.zcml files with in a aCFG file now?16:59
srichterhonestly, that is retarded16:59
Theunithat's kind of unclear right now ;)16:59
Theunithat depends on the kind of recipe you use for the server instance17:00
Theunimy recipe uses skeleton directories that you can customize from the config17:00
Theunithis is still a moving target.17:00
srichterwell, I just want there to be a recipe tha tworks and works sensibly17:00
Theuniand depends on what your goals and preferences are17:00
baijumsrichter, that's a problem of recipe...17:00
Theunii'm very happy with mine of course ;)17:00
srichterwell, here is how I see it: you are making it very painful to check out the Zope 3 trunk on one hand and then tell me that the egg-based stuff is still a moving target17:01
TheuniI don't think it is very painful to check out the Zope 3 trunk.17:01
TheuniIt's an inconvenience, I agree, but I don't think it makes it very painful.17:02
srichterI'll wait till you are done with your changes17:02
srichterand then I time how long it takes to check out and update17:02
* baijum think, we should move this discussion to list17:02
* baijum leaving, good night all !17:03
srichterTheuni: I am just disappointed that I have no efficient way of working with Zope 3 anymore17:04
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srichterTheuni: until now, it was very easy for me to fix bugs and keep going17:04
srichterso what are recipes for anyways? Why do I have to learn about them?17:04
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TheuniShort buildout story: Buildout defines your application from different parts. Parts are generic and recipes are used to implement the behaviour you need to setup a part, e.g. a zeo server, a zope instance, a test runner. you only need to learn about them as far as you need a specific part of an application and know how to parametrize it.17:06
srichterok, how does zope.conf get put together?17:06
srichterwhich recipes are working well?17:06
TheuniI work well with gocept.zope3instance17:07
TheuniJim works well with their zc recipes, can't remember which one is the current one.17:07
ignasthe only problem i can foresee is a bugfix that touches 2 packages ...17:07
Theuniignas: why?17:07
srichterignas: I think you can make them both develop eggs, fix them and release new versions17:07
ignasback then i could svn diff in a full checkout17:07
ignasand have 1 patch17:07
ignasnow i would have to checkout 2 eggs, and get 2 diffs17:08
srichterignas: good point, as I said before I think working on Zope 3 itself will become harder for sure17:08
ignasmodularity +3 , integration -2 ;)17:09
Theuniah, a bug that is present in two packages .. well .. i'd consider that two bugs ;)17:09
ignasTheuni: but a fix that if only applied to 1 egg17:09
ignasbreaks the other17:09
ignasbeing a monolith application has it's benefits, you can modify internal interfaces in an easier manner17:09
baijumignas, you can non-recursivel checkout 'main' and check trunks/branches inside that, then you can do it17:09
Theunithis sounds like somebody was using internal17:10
Theuni"interfaces" where they shouldn't.17:10
ignasTheuni: hmm, my bugfix that fixed the testrunner17:10
ignasby moving the path parsing from one module to another17:10
ignasthey are 2 eggs now17:10
srichterI think we all agree that academically eggs are the right choice, but people have practical worries which I think is valid17:11
Theuniyou can do that in two steps17:11
Theunia) you add the new functionality with backwards compatibility to the one egg17:11
Theunib) you make your other egg use it and depend on the new first egg17:11
zagythat should be done anyway17:11
Theunisrichter: I know. We are figuring those out though and I haven't had a problem that the system couldn't solve yet.17:11
Theunizagy: right.17:11
zagyotherwise the whole component story isn't worth a sh*17:11
TheuniI think eggs only make many problems more obvious that would get hidden otherwise.17:12
TheuniAnd now we have to face them.17:12
TheuniFace your daemons!17:12
ignaszagy: sometimes people still use functions ;)17:12
ignasTheuni: my point is that it is more difficult now, a lot more difficult, because instead of managing 1 application you are maintaining a lot of modules ...17:12
Theunisrichter: real time for updating the trunk here is 1minute30sec17:12
Theuniwelcome to the world of components :)17:12
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Theuniand i'm very far away from the svn server17:13
srichterTheuni: that surprises me, but that's totally acceptable17:13
Theuninow it was even just 1m2s17:13
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azazelhi all, i want to update the zope3 italian .po file, what's the preferred whay to do that?17:37
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philiKONazazel: launchpad17:39
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meatballhatI want my principals to be either predefined or limited to a specific set (perhaps from a list generated from an LDAP utility??)  ... is this possible/advisable?17:43
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nerdalertI don't see why it wouldn't be possible17:48
nerdalertsounds fairly normal really17:48
meatballhatnerdalert: that's what I was hoping ...    happen to know if this is usually hardcoded or done through the ZMI?17:49
nerdalertthere should be a PAU module for LDAP somewhere on teh internets.  I'm sure if you searched google for 'zope 3 LDAP' you might find something interesting17:49
meatballhatyup... got the module ... just not sure how to implement the thing  :-/17:50
nerdalertah, well you probably know more than I do about the LDAP plugin at this point17:50
meatballhat:D    not likely, but thanks17:50
nerdalertso you just want to use the users from your existing LDAP setup?17:51
nerdalertthat should be easy enough17:51
meatballhatI've never worked with LDAP before  ;-)17:51
nerdalertneither have I =/17:52
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nerdalertalthough I hear it's somewhat useful17:52
meatballhatmeh .... time for me to start learnin'!  :D17:52
nerdalertI think you should be able to add a new LDAP instance through the ZMI after you install the plugin17:53
nerdalertthink if you add a PAU to ++etc, then you should be able to add an LDAP instance there17:53
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meatballhatthat's about as far as I got ... I'd really like to pre-associate users with roles, groups, etc ... hmmm17:54
nerdalertand I think if you register your PAU, that should be all there is to it17:54
meatballhatI'll play a bit17:55
nerdalertyeah, do that.  it sounds like you're on the right track =D17:55
meatballhatnerdalert: thanks much   :)17:55
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bjdhi guys... I've been thinking some more about the idea of replicating objects from zodb-1 to zodb-2.  Could one insert an object from one zodb to another e.g. via xml-rpc?17:57
CrippsFXso, is there any reason why a _validate() method for a custom widget wouldn't raise an exception for invalid input?17:58
CrippsFX(my code is here if anyone wants to see it: )17:58
Theunihrn. 12 manual packages to go.18:01
nerdalertCrippsFX: do you have a doctest?18:03
CrippsFXnerdalert: not yet.18:03
CrippsFXI've been doing my testing manually.18:03
* CrippsFX has been a baaad llama18:03
azazelphiliKON: are you reading me in query?18:04
nerdalertCrippsFX: you'll save a lot of time by making a doctest.  it's much faster to run 'test -v -s ship' than to play with things in the interpreter18:04
CrippsFXnerdalert: understood.18:05
CrippsFXnerdalert: hm. I should do that now :P18:05
nerdalertCrippsFX: and I also say that cause I don't see anything obviously wrong in the code you wrote =P18:05
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CrippsFXnerdalert: I was just thinking that the doctests are usually good at picking up the really non-obvious mistakes ... and thanks for the compliment on ym code ;)18:06
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nerdalertCrippsFX: doctests are not only good for catching non-obvious mistakes, but also for regression tests down the road18:07
CrippsFXnerdalert: yeah. I still have to get used to the idea of test-based development. As for any new zope3 developer, it's a pretty foreign idea ;)18:08
CrippsFXsrichter: question: have you ever talked to xbeanx before?18:08
nerdalertCrippsFX: hehe  yeah, it takes a certain amount of discipline, I guess.  I definitely sympathize with wanting the instant gratification of the interpreter18:09
srichterCrippsFX: no18:09
CrippsFXnerdalert: :)18:09
nerdalertCrippsFX: you can always copy/paste your interpreter sessions into a doctest though =P18:10
CrippsFXsrichter: just curious.18:10
srichterwho is he?18:10
CrippsFXnerdalert: actually, I just write code and then try starting my server instance ;)18:10
CrippsFXsrichter: he's actually one of my coworkers, he's in charge of the project I'm working on.18:10
srichterCrippsFX: I guess he works with you :-)18:10
srichterok, good to know18:10
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nerdalertCrippsFX:  hehe well doctests are definitely faster than restarting the z3 instance, and the zope 3 api provides mock objects for browser requests too =D18:12
CrippsFXnerdalert: true enough. I never successfully got a functional test (interface test) to work though. :/18:13
srichterand with coverage tests you can assure that you tested everything18:13
nerdalertCrippsFX: also, something else of interest to testing is demostorage, and it's super easy to use18:13
CrippsFXthat's a separate package?18:14
nerdalertCrippsFX: nope, it's built in18:14
nerdalertCrippsFX: demostorage wraps your normal ZODB storage18:14
nerdalertCrippsFX: in your etc/zope.conf, you just wrap your zodb storage in <demostorage></demostorage>18:15
CrippsFXahh. can you refer me to some documentation on demostorage?18:15
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nerdalertCrippsFX: that's all there is to it18:15
CrippsFXoh. nifty. I'll have to write that down ;)18:15
nerdalertCrippsFX: what it does is it reverts to the DB's original state once you restart the instance18:16
srichterthat is very useful for testing18:16
CrippsFXoh, that sounds really nifty.18:16
nerdalertCrippsFX: but while your instance is running, you still have your ACID transactions against the DB18:16
srichterwe create base storages with our sample data in it and then use it as a test base18:16
nerdalertCrippsFX: so it's kinda like ACID minus the D18:16
CrippsFXsorry: ACID ?18:16
nerdalertatomicity, concurrency, isolation, durability18:17
nerdalertACID describes what a DB transaction must support18:17
nerdalertgoogle it =P18:17
CrippsFXhehe ... I'm on it ;)18:17
bjdsorry to repeat the question guys, but what are the implications of sending an object from one zodb to another?  I'm trying to come up with a replication system18:18
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nerdalertbjd: are you using ZEO?18:18
bjdno.. it's out of the question because of the pricing18:19
bjdalso, i'm not looking for synchronous replicaiton18:19
bjdi'm not so concerned with the transport mechanism right now, nor replication conflicts, just whether or not this idea is a non-starter18:20
nerdalertbjd: ok.  I dunno.  I'd set up xml-rpc views for the objects you want to replicate, and perhaps trigger the replication with object created/modified events18:21
bjdso, in theory, one ought to be able to send an object from one zodb to another?18:21
srichteryeah, I think you can do this with th eZEO protocol too, but I am not 100% sure18:22
nerdalertbjd: I dunno about direct zodb-to-zodb connections, but you can definitely set up a service to send/receive stuff18:22
srichterthere are some replication storage approaches out there, liek ZRS or ZEO-RAID18:22
bjdright, but ZRS is prohbitively expensive18:23
srichterwell, if your project depends on it, it is not18:24
srichterand it is relatively little compared to what you will pay for Java technology18:24
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bjdassuming I've created a new object, commited it, and pickled it in Zope-A, and I pass it to a xml-rpc method in Zope-B that accepts a pickle, can Zope-B unpickle it and add it to it's ZODB?18:29
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srichterI think some syncing tools in Zope 2 took that approach18:31
srichterI think that zope.fssync would allow you this too18:31
bjdsrichter: thanks, i just needed to check it doesn't send off alarm bells as really idiotic thing to even think about.18:32
benjibjd: I've not been following the conversation (and don't really have time to), but just using a file synchronization tool might be the easiest thing for you; just sync your Data.fs to another box18:32
bjdbenji: wow... I didn't think it could be that simple... I assumed that would cause some corruption18:33
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benjiif a transaction is in progress, you won't get that transaction, but you'll otherwise be OK18:34
srichterbenji: is that safe?18:34
srichterok, wow18:34
srichterI did not expect that18:34
benjithis is only for backup though, you can't have the desitnation Data.fs open18:34
bjdah... a bit more compled then... that problem also exists for DirectoryStorage18:35
ignasanyone fluent in buildout?18:45
Theunino metaquestions  ;)18:50
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ignashow to find out what paths are in the dependency_links18:53
ignaswhen running with -D18:53
ignasand having an egg not found error18:53
ignasbecause i should have in dependency_links of schooltool egg, and depend on z3c.javascript.mochikit18:54
ignasbut the egg is not being found18:54
ignasError: Couldn't find a distribution for z3c.javascript.mochikit>=0.0.1. is what buildout tells to me :/18:55
ignasand the url is in the _links18:56
ignasand i have even tried adding the linke to my find_links in buildout.cfg18:56
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ignaslisppaste6: url19:02
lisppaste6To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.19:02
lisppaste6ignas pasted "the part of a recipe to install z3c javascript mochikit" at
ignasthis isolated snippet fails19:03
ignasand i can't understand why ...19:03
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ignasanyone has a recipe for a unit testable zc.buildout?19:33
Theuninot sure what that means19:34
ignaswell - i have installed an egg19:34
ignasi think it has a bug19:34
ignasbut i can't find a way to run it's unit tests19:34
Theuniyou need a testrunner19:36
Theunilook at one of the recipes of the satellite projects i did19:36
Theuniall of them define testrunners19:36
Theunioh wait, did you install an egg or do you have a bug in a project that is using buildout?19:37
ignasi think there is a bug in buildout19:37
benjiignas: the zc.buildout project is itself a buildout, and it includes a testrunner19:37
Theunithats what you meant19:37
ignasbenji: and how do you run the tests for the buildout then?19:38
benjijust like normal (I'm feeling that I'm not understanding your question)19:38
ignasbenji: hmm, maybe i am installing the buildout wrong but i can only see ./buildout in the bin19:38
benjihmm, let me see19:39
ignasi am using the egg on pypi i think19:39
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ignasand i can only see 1 entry point19:40
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benjithat's where we're misunderstanding each other; I'm talking about checking out the zc.buildout project19:40
benjithat's what I would suggest19:41
ignasand i was talking about buildout egg19:41
ignasbenji: can you give me a link to the repository?19:41
Theuniholy cow19:42
ignasmy best guess about the bug is that buildout somehow can't handle <a href="some.egg">some.e...</a> links19:42
ignasi want to check that now19:42
Theunikeeping buildouts of most trunk projects from requires quite a few gigabytes of disk space19:43
benjiignas: if so, that'd be a problem with setuptools19:43
ignasbenji: setuptools (at least the version i am using with schooltool, are handling everything properly)19:44
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ignasthat's the main problem19:44
ignasi have posted the recipe that does not work ...19:45
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ignasit's not buildout19:59
ignasit's python2.4 eggs19:59
ignasvs python2.5 buildout19:59
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benjithat's one of the reasons I (and many others) suggest always providing source distributions (often instead of binary eggs, sometimes along with them)20:02
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ignasbuildout tried to pass /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages instead of the path to the downloaded egg when installing docutils20:18
Theunignaaah20:19 keeps falling over for some reason20:19
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ignasJ1m: maybe you could help me a little bit? i have a buildout recipe that seems to be failing in a very interesting way ...20:39
ignaswhile installing docutils20:39
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J1mignas, how so?20:40
ignas/usr/bin/python2.4 "-c" "from setuptools.command.easy_install import main; main()" "-mUNxd" "/home/ignas/src/buildout/eggs/tmpV8PA8E" "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages"20:40
ignasis the command it tries to run20:40
ignaswhen installing docutils egg20:40
ignasthough docutils is available on ubuntu feisty20:40
J1mI don't see why it would try to install to site-packages.20:41
lisppaste6ignas pasted "The failing buildout.cfg" at
J1mDo you have your eggs-directory set to site packages?20:42
lisppaste6ignas annotated #40759 with "wrong name of the egg" at
ignasinstalling schooltool gets the same error as installing docutils20:43
ignasso you might want to skip the 58 megs of Zope320:43
J1mI don't see why it would install to site-packages.20:44
ignasit tries to install "site-packages" not - into site packages20:45
ignaserror: Couldn't find a setup script in /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages20:45
J1mI wonder if they've done something wacky with setuptools.20:46
J1mI'll try that buildout.20:47
J1mI didn't get any errors.20:49
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J1mignas, could you try not using your system Python?20:49
ignasJ1m: hmm, compiling my own python 2.4 ?20:49
J1mIf buildout (or any other Python program I wrote) had a warranty, it would be voided by using a system Python.20:50
ignasany easy ways to do that ?20:50
ignaslike a buildout recipe or so20:50
J1mwget ... python download url20:50
J1mtar zxf thedownload20:51
J1mcd the directory20:51
J1mconfigure --prefix=target_dir20:51
J1mmake install20:51
J1mIt is pretty easy.20:51
ignasi can't recall all the prefix directories that are needed if i want to install it in my home dir20:52
J1mJust for laughs, I try your buildout with an ubuntu system python20:52
J1mJust --prefiix=some_dir20:52
J1mJust --prefix=some_dir20:52
J1mJust create a single directory and use it as a prefix.20:53
J1mfwiw, whenever I start working on a machine, I:20:53
J1mcreate /usr/local/python with my ownership.20:54
J1mI then use prefixes like /usr/local/python/2.4.420:54
J1mIf the parent dir exists, the prefix dir will get created automatically.20:54
ignasthe problem is that our users won't be literate enough to compile their own version python :/20:54
ignasanother thing is that installing the egg the usual way (using setuptools) works20:55
ignasschooltool egg20:55
ignasJ1m: indeed, a clean python installation installs docutils21:03
ignasbut i will probably have to find out what is broken with default python in ubuntu and mokeypatch it :/21:05
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J1mSo does my unbuntu python.  Bug ignas is gone.21:19
J1mSo does my unbuntu python.  But ignas is gone.21:19
meatballhatI have a Person class and an Activity class.  Many Activities may be associated with individual Person objects.  What is the best way to associate the two without duplicating the Person instances?21:19
CrippsFXI installed python from source into /opt, and then got Zope to look for it there.21:26
CrippsFX'twas pretty easy21:26
srichtermeatballhat: just list the activities in a tuple or list within the person21:27
srichtermeatballhat: an alternaitve is to look at relationship packages, such as zc.relationship21:27
meatballhatsrichter: thank you :D21:28
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nerdalertsrichter: what does zc.relationship have to offer over the former choice?21:28
srichtersome querying benefits, I think21:29
srichterI have not used it myself yet21:29
nerdalertit's new?21:30
srichterwell, it's there for a while21:30
srichterI just have not needed it yet21:30
srichteryou basically only need relationships if you have many-to-many relationships21:31
srichterone-to-one is well solved using attribute assignment21:31
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srichterone-to-many is solved via containment21:31
J1mand even many-to-many can be well handled using simple Python refs.21:32
J1mI think external reference systems become interesting when:21:32
J1m- Separation of concerns makes adding direct references unattractive21:32
J1m- You have search requirements that specialized data structures can help with.21:33
J1mOtherwise, I prefer simpler solutions.21:33
srichterJ1m: wow, it's interesting you did not come up with more use cases; that makes me feel a bit better that I usually do not use relationships :-)21:34
J1mI'm sure Gary coukld come up with more. :)21:35
J1mI'm sure Gary could come up with more. :)21:35
srichterhe he21:35
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