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| goplus | my zope 3.4.0a1 runs with python2.5.1 now | 01:47 |
|---|---|---|
| Theuni | ! | 01:56 |
| Theuni | :) | 01:57 |
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| Theuni | hrnrn | 02:15 |
| Theuni | i *would* go to bed if i knew the script was running cleanly | 02:15 |
| Theuni | i don't want to watch this the whole night. *gaah* | 02:16 |
| Theuni | remote svn repositories are annoying | 02:16 |
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| * Theuni continues tomorrow morning | 02:18 | |
| * romanofski could continue do watching the script output for another 6 hours ;) | 02:19 | |
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| bjd | hi, just got some questions about replicating objects between zope instances | 09:32 |
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| bjd | hi, i'm trying to find out if the StandbyStorage product exists | 10:22 |
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| Theuni | hmm how do you know its name if it shouldn't exist? | 10:28 |
| bjd | i found references to it on google from 2002, but I searching zope.org did not produce any hits | 10:28 |
| Theuni | then it likely doesn't exist. the name does not ring a bell for me. | 10:29 |
| bjd | ok, thanks - I didn't want to re-invent the wheel unless I had to | 10:29 |
| Theuni | what does standbystorage do? | 10:31 |
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| * timte is also curious | 10:31 | |
| bjd | it replicates zope objects between zodbs | 10:31 |
| bjd | but not using ZRS | 10:31 |
| Theuni | there is a project that i'm working on called 'gocept.zeoraid' that aims to do something similar | 10:32 |
| bjd | aha | 10:32 |
| Theuni | it's on hold right now because I don't have time to work on it, but it will be continued | 10:32 |
| bjd | i just had a quick look - i think what I'm looking for is probably something simpler | 10:32 |
| bjd | the standbystorage looks like it did what I want | 10:33 |
| bjd | basically, it mirrors objects from one zodb to another | 10:33 |
| bjd | http://wiki.zope.org/ZODB/StandbyStorage | 10:34 |
| bjd | i even found references to where people said it was being used in production... but then nothing else | 10:34 |
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| bjd | maybe zope corp have rolled it into ZRS | 10:35 |
| Theuni | well, it's part of what zrs does | 10:35 |
| Theuni | and it's also part of what zeoraid does | 10:35 |
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| bjd | ok...thanks | 10:35 |
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| timte | Theuni: gotta ask, what's satellite? :) | 11:14 |
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| J1m | Theuni, StandbyStorage is another name for ZRS 1. | 11:36 |
| J1m | Too bad bjd left. | 11:37 |
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| Theuni | ah | 11:42 |
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| Theuni | good morning btw | 11:42 |
| J1m | Good afternoon. | 11:42 |
| Theuni | uhmm. what is it at your place? | 11:43 |
| J1m | 12:45pm I believe. I'm in Europe for a few days. :) | 11:44 |
| Theuni | ah | 11:44 |
| Theuni | it's 10:44 in germany | 11:44 |
| J1m | oh, oops | 11:44 |
| J1m | then it's 10:44 here. | 11:44 |
| Theuni | i was expecting it to be 5am at your place ;) | 11:44 |
| J1m | You would normally be right. | 11:45 |
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| timte | Where do I download bootstrap.py? | 11:58 |
| timte | didn't find a link on cheese shop, but found a link on http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Buildout | 12:00 |
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| J1m | timte, I though the buildout docs gave a link to this. | 12:07 |
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| J1m | I guess not. :( | 12:08 |
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| J1m | http://svn.zope.org/*checkout*/zc.buildout/trunk/bootstrap/bootstrap.py?rev=69908 | 12:09 |
| J1m | http://svn.zope.org/*checkout*/zc.buildout/trunk/bootstrap/bootstrap.py | 12:09 |
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| Theuni | timte: the term `satellite` came up for those packages that currently live in the classic Zope 3 tree and are being moved out of there but kept as externals so we can still keep the existing release infrastructure for the classic releases. | 12:45 |
| Theuni | J1m: btw, did you ever get around updating the subversion server code? | 12:46 |
| J1m | Theuni, I think so. I don't remember. :) | 12:48 |
| J1m | Hm, I guess not. | 12:49 |
| Theuni | Ok, just good to know. | 12:51 |
| ka-jod | does anybody know why amazon.de does no longer sell "Web Component Development with Zope 3" (second ed.) by Philipp von Weitershausen ? | 12:51 |
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| ka-jod | ... is a third edition about to appear soon? | 12:51 |
| Theuni | Our mirror is set up and would be available as soon as you switch the repository. Whenever you get to it, i'd appreciate a ping ;) | 12:52 |
| Theuni | ka-jod: no | 12:52 |
| ka-jod | Theuni: i.e. no 3rd edition? | 12:52 |
| Theuni | right | 12:52 |
| ka-jod | uh oh... will be forced to buy a _used_ one then... i hate used books | 12:52 |
| Theuni | at least i don't know that any is planned and definitely not in a time frame that would justify not selling the 2nd edition any more | 12:53 |
| Theuni | nah | 12:53 |
| Theuni | you should be able to buy it from springer | 12:53 |
| ka-jod | ah, thx !!! | 12:53 |
| Theuni | the packages that can be moved mechanically from the Zope 3 tree should be done in about 10-15 minutes | 12:53 |
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| Theuni | after that its about 16 packages that need manual care-taking :/ | 12:55 |
| Theuni | btw: i'll leave the deprecated zope.app.* packages in the tree | 12:56 |
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| J1m | Theuni, I'll plan to update subversion this weekend. | 13:09 |
| ka-jod | Theuni: thanks again for the tip, i recently moved from stockholm to berlin so i'm not yet too aqcuainted with facilities in this country | 13:10 |
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| Theuni | J1m: ok, cool. | 13:48 |
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| * baijum (Future, some forecasts :) | 14:32 | |
| * baijum Q: hey, what is Zope 3 ? | 14:32 | |
| * baijum A: There is nothing called Zope 3 now ! | 14:32 | |
| * baijum Q: then, What is this Zope ? | 14:32 | |
| * baijum A: Zope is a set of libraries and frameworks, visit nice zope.org :) | 14:32 | |
| * baijum Q: btw, why are you hanging in this #zope3-dev channel ? | 14:32 | |
| * baijum A: just to redirect you to #zope channel | 14:32 | |
| * baijum ... the discussion stopped there, now I am alone in this channel :( | 14:32 | |
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| Theuni | hehe | 14:34 |
| Theuni | i can lurk around with you together ;) | 14:34 |
| Theuni | ka-jod: moved here for working? i thought germans go to sweden for work. :) | 14:35 |
| ka-jod | Theuni: move here to live | 14:36 |
| ka-jod | was working too much in stockholm | 14:36 |
| ka-jod | "arm aber sexy" better than "rich but tired" | 14:36 |
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| Theuni | heh :) | 14:39 |
| Theuni | you know that there's a zope conference coming up in June next to berlin, right? :) | 14:39 |
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| ka-jod | potsdam yeah... seriously considering that | 14:46 |
| Theuni | we do have a zope 3 sprint there :) | 14:47 |
| ka-jod | i've just recently begun to investigate z3 | 14:47 |
| ka-jod | oh... you're a gold sponsor | 14:49 |
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| ignas | there is a #zope channel? | 15:08 |
| baijum | ignas, yup | 15:08 |
| * philiKON wonders if ignas is being serious or not | 15:08 | |
| ignas | just that it seems so strange ;) | 15:09 |
| * ignas has never done anything with zope2 | 15:09 | |
| ignas | so i was living in Zope3 world all the time ... | 15:09 |
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| CrippsFX | ignas: that makes two of us (at least) :) | 15:35 |
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| baijum | Theuni, I am going to remove setup.cfg from satellite projects' trunk, is it ok ? | 15:36 |
| Theuni | kinda | 15:36 |
| Theuni | i'm not sure yet ;) | 15:36 |
| Theuni | doing continuous releases might be a pain then | 15:36 |
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| philiKON | why remove setup.cfg? | 15:41 |
| baijum | Do we really want to support "continuous releases" ? | 15:42 |
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| philiKON | why not | 15:44 |
| philiKON | they're not so much a pain as everybody thinks they are | 15:44 |
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| baijum | philiKON, I always find it difficult to make point releases, so I simply remove setup.cfg from checkout and make release.. If we wan to support "continuous releases", I have no problem, let setup.cfg be there.. | 15:48 |
| philiKON | you don't need to remove setup.cfg | 15:48 |
| baijum | I know..from this mail: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2007-March/022150.html | 15:48 |
| * baijum is lazy ... don't want to remember those commands :) | 15:49 | |
| philiKON | then make an alias | 15:49 |
| philiKON | you can create distutils aliases | 15:50 |
| philiKON | release = "-r sdist bdist_egg | 15:50 |
| philiKON | " | 15:50 |
| philiKON | or something like that | 15:50 |
| philiKON | then you can do python setup.py release | 15:50 |
| CrippsFX | philiKON: Newfie is making fun of you in another channel. I think you should flame him :P | 15:54 |
| * baijum cannot find any counter arguments than Jim's mail :( http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2007-March/022150.html | 15:54 | |
| * CrippsFX buggers off to continue working. | 15:55 | |
| philiKON | CrippsFX: aha... well, making fun of me isn't forbidden :) | 15:55 |
| CrippsFX | philiKON: awesome :P | 15:55 |
| philiKON | baijum: well, i don't find continous releases yagni | 15:56 |
| philiKON | that's it | 15:56 |
| CrippsFX | philiKON: thanks for taking the time to write out those tutorials. They're coming in pretty handy :) | 15:56 |
| Theuni | I'm not sure if I pointed this out loud enough, but here's my vision if we want to use setuptools right - IMHO from my understanding: | 15:56 |
| Theuni | if zope.somepackage is developed *towards* the general 13.3 release on the trunk, then we put in "13.3.0a1" as the release number in the setup.py | 15:57 |
| Theuni | When making a continuous release while developing we do: | 15:57 |
| Theuni | python setup.py egg_info -rb.dev sdist | 15:58 |
| Theuni | This will end up with an egg called `13.3.0a1.dev-r1234` | 15:58 |
| Theuni | An alternative would be to do `13.3` as the version and make `13.3dev-r123` releases | 15:58 |
| Theuni | those actually are older than possible `13.3.0a1` packages so it comes down to the same behaviour | 15:58 |
| Theuni | i would like not to see `3.4dev` to be put into the setup.py | 15:59 |
| Theuni | thats what setuptools tell | 15:59 |
| philiKON | fair enough | 16:03 |
| Theuni | btw: i'm also thinking about setting up a stupid test runner for the satellite projects | 16:04 |
| Theuni | something like: walk all top-level folders in subversion. if they have: a trunk, a bootstrap, buildout.cfg and setup.py, then check them out, bootstrap and buildout them and then run the tests. | 16:05 |
| Theuni | otherwise we'll loose track soon of the individual projects especially if the Zope 3 tree will not track the trunk of the individual projects | 16:05 |
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| * baijum just checked out 'main' non-recursively (-N option) and updated individual project trunks non-recursively (svn up -N) inside that ... | 16:10 | |
| * baijum this way I can commit to all trunks together , if required | 16:11 | |
| Theuni | I'm not sure that sounds right ;) | 16:12 |
| baijum | Theuni, why ? | 16:13 |
| baijum | if I want to commit similar changes to multiple trunks ? | 16:14 |
| baijum | hmm.. I have to check out trunk recursively ... | 16:17 |
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| srichter | Theuni: you are making my life very hard right now ;-\ | 16:31 |
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| srichter | Theuni: it will become a nightmare to check out the Zope 3 trunk after you are done | 16:31 |
| srichter | I am okay with the intend, but the problem is that there is no documentation on what the new recommened way of development is | 16:32 |
| Theuni | I know. I have the points in my head and am really anxious to write them down. | 16:34 |
| Theuni | If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer them. | 16:34 |
| Theuni | Development isn't going to be that much of a pain once one is used to it. | 16:34 |
| Theuni | And once the whole situation stabilized. | 16:34 |
| srichter | well, I do not have specific questions, because I do not knwo where to start | 16:35 |
| goplus | philikon: hi, are you planning to fix that nasty_exception_str-thing in zope.documenttemplate.ustr for python2.5? | 16:35 |
| srichter | I followed Jim's PyCon tutorial and I can create and upload an egg for a simple package, like z3c.rml now | 16:35 |
| srichter | not that I am fluent with it, but it is only a matter of practice | 16:36 |
| philiKON | goplus: somebody who will port zope to python 2.5 probably will | 16:36 |
| goplus | :-) | 16:36 |
| srichter | what I do not know how to do is how to create a egg-based project, where I have a multitude of packages I need | 16:36 |
| srichter | and how to switch to a development egg, work on it, check it in, create a release later and update my env to use the released version | 16:36 |
| philiKON | let's say you're developing a new package | 16:37 |
| philiKON | and it depends on a bucnh of other eggs | 16:37 |
| philiKON | you simply state those dependencies in setup.py | 16:37 |
| srichter | well, I am starting a project | 16:37 |
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| philiKON | and when you do setup.py develop, easy_install is pulling in those dependencies | 16:37 |
| srichter | I usually have a base set of packages that I am using | 16:38 |
| philiKON | sure, but the reason you need them is that your code depends on them | 16:38 |
| srichter | I first need to get to the point where I can have a base set of packages and can start up Zope | 16:38 |
| philiKON | you're looking at this from the wrong angle :) | 16:38 |
| srichter | but that is thinking backwards | 16:39 |
| philiKON | why? | 16:39 |
| srichter | no, I am looking at it from I need to do real-life work | 16:39 |
| philiKON | i could also argue you're thinking backwards :) | 16:39 |
| Theuni | oh, wait. | 16:39 |
| philiKON | well, real-life work for me is writing code that happens to have dependecies | 16:39 |
| philiKON | such as zope | 16:39 |
| srichter | let's look at Ooperating Systems | 16:39 |
| Theuni | srichter: are you trying to develop a Zope application or make modifications to the Zope packages? | 16:39 |
| philiKON | zope's not an operating system | 16:39 |
| srichter | when I install an OS, I am not coming along and say, I want to use OpenOffice, install the rest | 16:40 |
| srichter | I say, install Linux with some of the basics, then we will see what I need | 16:40 |
| srichter | Theuni: develop a new Zope application | 16:40 |
| Theuni | Ok. | 16:40 |
| Theuni | So one thing is, nothing changes for now. | 16:40 |
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| Theuni | You can keep checking out the Zope 3 tree as usual. | 16:40 |
| srichter | but checking out and updating the Zope 3 tree becomes extremely painful now | 16:41 |
| Theuni | If you want, you can switch to egg-based development. But if you're not yet comfortable with that, you don't have to. | 16:41 |
| Theuni | Well. | 16:41 |
| philiKON | but that doesn't have anything to do with developing a zope app | 16:41 |
| srichter | because of all the externals it will take forever | 16:41 |
| philiKON | you don't really need a *checkout* of zope | 16:41 |
| philiKON | you just need zope | 16:41 |
| philiKON | in whatever form | 16:41 |
| * Theuni pushes philiKON back a bit ;) | 16:41 | |
| philiKON | (e.g. eggs) | 16:41 |
| ignas | hmm, for schooltool we are planning to have a meta egg | 16:41 |
| ignas | that pulls the standard set | 16:41 |
| ignas | required to run the server and look around | 16:41 |
| ignas | with ability to pull in more plugins as eggs | 16:42 |
| Theuni | srichter: Right. This is an inconvenience if you use a checkout. If you're using a release this won't matter. ;) | 16:42 |
| srichter | Theuni: who uses releases? | 16:42 |
| Theuni | Well, as we have eggs around, I do. | 16:42 |
| Theuni | I didn't use traditional releases. | 16:42 |
| srichter | I don't :-) | 16:42 |
| philiKON | i do | 16:42 |
| Theuni | When moving to eggs you will ;) | 16:42 |
| philiKON | lots of people do | 16:42 |
| ignas | i do now, (eggs) | 16:42 |
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| Theuni | If you want to use Zope from eggs, you'll probably want to enjoy some assistance from e.g. zc.buildout. | 16:43 |
| srichter | well, eggs mitigate that, because I can fix sub-pacakges easily | 16:43 |
| srichter | but remember, I am not using eggs yet | 16:43 |
| srichter | whcih started that discussion | 16:43 |
| srichter | I would like to | 16:43 |
| Theuni | You would like to use eggs? | 16:43 |
| philiKON | that's what i've trying to explain | 16:44 |
| srichter | yes, of course | 16:44 |
| ignas | srichter: schooltool is moving away from a checkout, and we are using a checkout with a stub setup.py that is used to pull the dependencies only | 16:44 |
| Theuni | Good. Then forget about the checkout. | 16:44 |
| ignas | away from Zope3 checkout | 16:44 |
| philiKON | Theuni: perhaps i ican take over again :) | 16:44 |
| Theuni | please | 16:44 |
| philiKON | now that we're back where i was 2 minutes ago :) | 16:44 |
| * Theuni goes off fixing the checkout trunk anyway. | 16:44 | |
| ignas | time travel ;) | 16:44 |
| philiKON | let's say you're developing a python package. you specify all its dependencies in setup.py | 16:45 |
| Theuni | you've got the timetravel module! give it to me! miiiinee! | 16:45 |
| philiKON | those dependencies happen to include zope.* eggs | 16:45 |
| philiKON | now you say setup.py develop | 16:45 |
| philiKON | which will pull in all this package's dependencies | 16:45 |
| philiKON | that includes zope | 16:45 |
| Theuni | philiKON: is this python package an application (instead of a library)? | 16:45 |
| philiKON | doesn't really matter | 16:45 |
| philiKON | could be an app | 16:45 |
| Theuni | (You might want to try to differentiate, it might make it easier to understand ... ;) ) | 16:46 |
| * Theuni shuts up again | 16:46 | |
| * philiKON disagrees | 16:46 | |
| philiKON | but yeah, let's say that package represents an app | 16:46 |
| philiKON | so, it pulls in all of the zope eggs | 16:46 |
| philiKON | now you satisfy the import dependencies | 16:46 |
| philiKON | the next thing is how to get an "instance" | 16:47 |
| philiKON | this is where tools like zc.buldout help | 16:47 |
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| * Theuni takes a meatball from meatballhat's meatballhat | 16:48 | |
| philiKON | srichter: take a look at http://svn.zope.org/zwiki/branches/baijum-experimental-zwiki/ | 16:49 |
| philiKON | it's a version of zwiki that pulls in zope via eggs | 16:49 |
| philiKON | and makes an instance via zc.buildout | 16:49 |
| meatballhat | Theuni: that's what it's there for ;-) | 16:50 |
| Theuni | :) | 16:50 |
| srichter | one package usually does not represent an app | 16:50 |
| * Theuni waits for the man with the nachohat | 16:50 | |
| srichter | usually we have a namespace that does | 16:50 |
| srichter | or a set of packages similarly named to keep structure flat | 16:50 |
| Theuni | srichter: there is a pattern that uses a kind of application-app that pulls those together, e.g. with customer-specific extensions | 16:50 |
| philiKON | srichter: that's ok | 16:51 |
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| philiKON | srichter: you could have mutliple packages. but the point is that their dependencies in the end install zope | 16:51 |
| srichter | philiKON: right, I get that; I just claim this is backward to how you think about stuff | 16:51 |
| philiKON | it is backward from how we *used* to think about stuff | 16:52 |
| srichter | when I start a project I start writing a huge README.txt that discusses the initial model and business logic | 16:52 |
| srichter | I would hate to have to think about dependencies at that point | 16:52 |
| philiKON | i'm not sure how you have to think about deps when writing rEADME.txt | 16:52 |
| srichter | so I guess having a standard project creator sort of thing would be really useful | 16:52 |
| srichter | or some other template | 16:52 |
| Theuni | jup | 16:52 |
| philiKON | paster | 16:52 |
| philiKON | from paste script | 16:52 |
| philiKON | does this nicely | 16:53 |
| philiKON | plone uses it | 16:53 |
| baijum | Well, I have a question related to development process of Zope itself... | 16:53 |
| baijum | How do I do development of Zope itself which involves changes in many packages? | 16:53 |
| baijum | Suppose I am introducing some deprecation, which also involves changes in more package, how do I handle this case? | 16:53 |
| philiKON | i mean, the plone people use it | 16:53 |
| CrippsFX | I have some code for a custom widget pasted here( http://www.pastebin.ca/470739 ), the issue I'm having is that my _validate() method doesn't seem to raise an error when it's supposed to (i.e. for an IP I put 1.1.1.500, so it should raise the InvalidOctetException, which is a custom exception, but it doesn't). Can someone take a look at my code and help me to figure out what I'm missing? | 16:53 |
| Theuni | baijum: hmm. that question is interesting. We're kind of heading away from deprecation as a tool. | 16:53 |
| philiKON | anyway, afk for a while | 16:53 |
| Theuni | baijum: the thing is: with eggs, you develop that one package. that's it. if other packages depend on it, they have to (with respect to the version dependencies) get udpated in a second step. | 16:54 |
| CrippsFX | (and in the code: s/"import re"//g ) | 16:54 |
| baijum | Theuni, ah. ok | 16:54 |
| srichter | baijum: the short answer is: developing Zope itself becomes somewhat more painful; luckily you can switch all packages to develop status, as far as I understand it | 16:55 |
| srichter | baijum: so after a large reorganization, you have to create a bunch of releases | 16:55 |
| srichter | I am hoping that we will build tools for this | 16:55 |
| Theuni | we do have tools for this | 16:55 |
| Theuni | the thing is to stop thinking about zope itself as one large thing. | 16:56 |
| Theuni | If you go like: Well, I want to make the publisher better, you start developing a new version of hte publisher. | 16:56 |
| Theuni | The next thing would be: Well. I want those other things that use the publisher make use of the new version. | 16:56 |
| Theuni | but they could as well keep using the old publisher. | 16:56 |
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| Theuni | The interesting part is when you introduce incompatible changes, because you want to avoid conflicts in the dependency set. | 16:57 |
| srichter | that's easy to say, but not very practical; Zope afterall still has to start up as a whole | 16:57 |
| Theuni | whatever "a whole" is ;) | 16:57 |
| Theuni | when talking about the Zope 3 tree, then yes. | 16:57 |
| Theuni | But that's what the tree is for. | 16:58 |
| Theuni | That's easy to check. | 16:58 |
| Theuni | The tree uses externals that have to be updated manually from the maintainers of the tree. | 16:58 |
| Theuni | Hopefully Zope 3.5 or Zope 3.6 will move to a "classical" release that uses eggs as well. | 16:58 |
| srichter | btw, I just looked at the experimental-zwiki buildout.cfg and I am shocked | 16:59 |
| srichter | are we really developing site.zcml files with in a aCFG file now? | 16:59 |
| srichter | honestly, that is retarded | 16:59 |
| Theuni | that's kind of unclear right now ;) | 16:59 |
| Theuni | that depends on the kind of recipe you use for the server instance | 17:00 |
| Theuni | my recipe uses skeleton directories that you can customize from the config | 17:00 |
| Theuni | this is still a moving target. | 17:00 |
| srichter | well, I just want there to be a recipe tha tworks and works sensibly | 17:00 |
| Theuni | and depends on what your goals and preferences are | 17:00 |
| baijum | srichter, that's a problem of recipe... | 17:00 |
| Theuni | i'm very happy with mine of course ;) | 17:00 |
| srichter | well, here is how I see it: you are making it very painful to check out the Zope 3 trunk on one hand and then tell me that the egg-based stuff is still a moving target | 17:01 |
| Theuni | I don't think it is very painful to check out the Zope 3 trunk. | 17:01 |
| Theuni | It's an inconvenience, I agree, but I don't think it makes it very painful. | 17:02 |
| srichter | I'll wait till you are done with your changes | 17:02 |
| srichter | and then I time how long it takes to check out and update | 17:02 |
| * baijum think, we should move this discussion to list | 17:02 | |
| * baijum leaving, good night all ! | 17:03 | |
| srichter | Theuni: I am just disappointed that I have no efficient way of working with Zope 3 anymore | 17:04 |
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| srichter | Theuni: until now, it was very easy for me to fix bugs and keep going | 17:04 |
| srichter | so what are recipes for anyways? Why do I have to learn about them? | 17:04 |
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| Theuni | Short buildout story: Buildout defines your application from different parts. Parts are generic and recipes are used to implement the behaviour you need to setup a part, e.g. a zeo server, a zope instance, a test runner. you only need to learn about them as far as you need a specific part of an application and know how to parametrize it. | 17:06 |
| srichter | ok, how does zope.conf get put together? | 17:06 |
| srichter | which recipes are working well? | 17:06 |
| Theuni | I work well with gocept.zope3instance | 17:07 |
| Theuni | Jim works well with their zc recipes, can't remember which one is the current one. | 17:07 |
| ignas | the only problem i can foresee is a bugfix that touches 2 packages ... | 17:07 |
| Theuni | ignas: why? | 17:07 |
| srichter | ignas: I think you can make them both develop eggs, fix them and release new versions | 17:07 |
| ignas | back then i could svn diff in a full checkout | 17:07 |
| ignas | and have 1 patch | 17:07 |
| ignas | now i would have to checkout 2 eggs, and get 2 diffs | 17:08 |
| srichter | ignas: good point, as I said before I think working on Zope 3 itself will become harder for sure | 17:08 |
| ignas | modularity +3 , integration -2 ;) | 17:09 |
| Theuni | ah, a bug that is present in two packages .. well .. i'd consider that two bugs ;) | 17:09 |
| ignas | Theuni: but a fix that if only applied to 1 egg | 17:09 |
| ignas | breaks the other | 17:09 |
| ignas | being a monolith application has it's benefits, you can modify internal interfaces in an easier manner | 17:09 |
| baijum | ignas, you can non-recursivel checkout 'main' and check trunks/branches inside that, then you can do it | 17:09 |
| Theuni | weeeell. | 17:09 |
| Theuni | this sounds like somebody was using internal | 17:10 |
| Theuni | "interfaces" where they shouldn't. | 17:10 |
| ignas | Theuni: hmm, my bugfix that fixed the testrunner | 17:10 |
| ignas | by moving the path parsing from one module to another | 17:10 |
| ignas | they are 2 eggs now | 17:10 |
| srichter | I think we all agree that academically eggs are the right choice, but people have practical worries which I think is valid | 17:11 |
| Theuni | you can do that in two steps | 17:11 |
| Theuni | a) you add the new functionality with backwards compatibility to the one egg | 17:11 |
| Theuni | b) you make your other egg use it and depend on the new first egg | 17:11 |
| zagy | that should be done anyway | 17:11 |
| Theuni | srichter: I know. We are figuring those out though and I haven't had a problem that the system couldn't solve yet. | 17:11 |
| Theuni | zagy: right. | 17:11 |
| zagy | otherwise the whole component story isn't worth a sh* | 17:11 |
| Theuni | I think eggs only make many problems more obvious that would get hidden otherwise. | 17:12 |
| Theuni | And now we have to face them. | 17:12 |
| Theuni | Face your daemons! | 17:12 |
| ignas | zagy: sometimes people still use functions ;) | 17:12 |
| ignas | Theuni: my point is that it is more difficult now, a lot more difficult, because instead of managing 1 application you are maintaining a lot of modules ... | 17:12 |
| Theuni | srichter: real time for updating the trunk here is 1minute30sec | 17:12 |
| Theuni | welcome to the world of components :) | 17:12 |
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| Theuni | and i'm very far away from the svn server | 17:13 |
| srichter | Theuni: that surprises me, but that's totally acceptable | 17:13 |
| Theuni | :) | 17:13 |
| Theuni | now it was even just 1m2s | 17:13 |
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| azazel | hi all, i want to update the zope3 italian .po file, what's the preferred whay to do that? | 17:37 |
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| philiKON | azazel: launchpad | 17:39 |
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| meatballhat | I want my principals to be either predefined or limited to a specific set (perhaps from a list generated from an LDAP utility??) ... is this possible/advisable? | 17:43 |
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| nerdalert | I don't see why it wouldn't be possible | 17:48 |
| nerdalert | sounds fairly normal really | 17:48 |
| meatballhat | nerdalert: that's what I was hoping ... happen to know if this is usually hardcoded or done through the ZMI? | 17:49 |
| nerdalert | there should be a PAU module for LDAP somewhere on teh internets. I'm sure if you searched google for 'zope 3 LDAP' you might find something interesting | 17:49 |
| meatballhat | yup... got the module ... just not sure how to implement the thing :-/ | 17:50 |
| nerdalert | ah, well you probably know more than I do about the LDAP plugin at this point | 17:50 |
| meatballhat | :D not likely, but thanks | 17:50 |
| nerdalert | so you just want to use the users from your existing LDAP setup? | 17:51 |
| meatballhat | yep | 17:51 |
| nerdalert | that should be easy enough | 17:51 |
| meatballhat | I've never worked with LDAP before ;-) | 17:51 |
| nerdalert | neither have I =/ | 17:52 |
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| nerdalert | although I hear it's somewhat useful | 17:52 |
| meatballhat | meh .... time for me to start learnin'! :D | 17:52 |
| nerdalert | I think you should be able to add a new LDAP instance through the ZMI after you install the plugin | 17:53 |
| nerdalert | think if you add a PAU to ++etc, then you should be able to add an LDAP instance there | 17:53 |
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| meatballhat | that's about as far as I got ... I'd really like to pre-associate users with roles, groups, etc ... hmmm | 17:54 |
| nerdalert | and I think if you register your PAU, that should be all there is to it | 17:54 |
| meatballhat | I'll play a bit | 17:55 |
| nerdalert | yeah, do that. it sounds like you're on the right track =D | 17:55 |
| meatballhat | nerdalert: thanks much :) | 17:55 |
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| bjd | hi guys... I've been thinking some more about the idea of replicating objects from zodb-1 to zodb-2. Could one insert an object from one zodb to another e.g. via xml-rpc? | 17:57 |
| CrippsFX | so, is there any reason why a _validate() method for a custom widget wouldn't raise an exception for invalid input? | 17:58 |
| CrippsFX | (my code is here if anyone wants to see it: http://www.pastebin.ca/470739 ) | 17:58 |
| Theuni | hrn. 12 manual packages to go. | 18:01 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: do you have a doctest? | 18:03 |
| CrippsFX | nerdalert: not yet. | 18:03 |
| CrippsFX | I've been doing my testing manually. | 18:03 |
| * CrippsFX has been a baaad llama | 18:03 | |
| azazel | philiKON: are you reading me in query? | 18:04 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: you'll save a lot of time by making a doctest. it's much faster to run 'test -v -s ship' than to play with things in the interpreter | 18:04 |
| CrippsFX | nerdalert: understood. | 18:05 |
| CrippsFX | nerdalert: hm. I should do that now :P | 18:05 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: and I also say that cause I don't see anything obviously wrong in the code you wrote =P | 18:05 |
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| CrippsFX | nerdalert: I was just thinking that the doctests are usually good at picking up the really non-obvious mistakes ... and thanks for the compliment on ym code ;) | 18:06 |
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| CrippsFX | s/ym/my | 18:06 |
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| nerdalert | CrippsFX: doctests are not only good for catching non-obvious mistakes, but also for regression tests down the road | 18:07 |
| CrippsFX | nerdalert: yeah. I still have to get used to the idea of test-based development. As for any new zope3 developer, it's a pretty foreign idea ;) | 18:08 |
| CrippsFX | srichter: question: have you ever talked to xbeanx before? | 18:08 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: hehe yeah, it takes a certain amount of discipline, I guess. I definitely sympathize with wanting the instant gratification of the interpreter | 18:09 |
| srichter | CrippsFX: no | 18:09 |
| CrippsFX | nerdalert: :) | 18:09 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: you can always copy/paste your interpreter sessions into a doctest though =P | 18:10 |
| CrippsFX | srichter: just curious. | 18:10 |
| srichter | who is he? | 18:10 |
| CrippsFX | nerdalert: actually, I just write code and then try starting my server instance ;) | 18:10 |
| CrippsFX | srichter: he's actually one of my coworkers, he's in charge of the project I'm working on. | 18:10 |
| srichter | CrippsFX: I guess he works with you :-) | 18:10 |
| srichter | ok, good to know | 18:10 |
| CrippsFX | :) | 18:10 |
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| nerdalert | CrippsFX: hehe well doctests are definitely faster than restarting the z3 instance, and the zope 3 api provides mock objects for browser requests too =D | 18:12 |
| srichter | yep | 18:13 |
| CrippsFX | nerdalert: true enough. I never successfully got a functional test (interface test) to work though. :/ | 18:13 |
| srichter | and with coverage tests you can assure that you tested everything | 18:13 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: also, something else of interest to testing is demostorage, and it's super easy to use | 18:13 |
| CrippsFX | that's a separate package? | 18:14 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: nope, it's built in | 18:14 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: demostorage wraps your normal ZODB storage | 18:14 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: in your etc/zope.conf, you just wrap your zodb storage in <demostorage></demostorage> | 18:15 |
| CrippsFX | ahh. can you refer me to some documentation on demostorage? | 18:15 |
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| nerdalert | CrippsFX: that's all there is to it | 18:15 |
| CrippsFX | oh. nifty. I'll have to write that down ;) | 18:15 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: what it does is it reverts to the DB's original state once you restart the instance | 18:16 |
| srichter | yes | 18:16 |
| srichter | that is very useful for testing | 18:16 |
| CrippsFX | oh, that sounds really nifty. | 18:16 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: but while your instance is running, you still have your ACID transactions against the DB | 18:16 |
| srichter | we create base storages with our sample data in it and then use it as a test base | 18:16 |
| nerdalert | CrippsFX: so it's kinda like ACID minus the D | 18:16 |
| CrippsFX | sorry: ACID ? | 18:16 |
| nerdalert | atomicity, concurrency, isolation, durability | 18:17 |
| CrippsFX | ah. | 18:17 |
| nerdalert | ACID describes what a DB transaction must support | 18:17 |
| nerdalert | google it =P | 18:17 |
| CrippsFX | hehe ... I'm on it ;) | 18:17 |
| bjd | sorry to repeat the question guys, but what are the implications of sending an object from one zodb to another? I'm trying to come up with a replication system | 18:18 |
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| nerdalert | bjd: are you using ZEO? | 18:18 |
| bjd | no.. it's out of the question because of the pricing | 18:19 |
| bjd | also, i'm not looking for synchronous replicaiton | 18:19 |
| bjd | i'm not so concerned with the transport mechanism right now, nor replication conflicts, just whether or not this idea is a non-starter | 18:20 |
| nerdalert | bjd: ok. I dunno. I'd set up xml-rpc views for the objects you want to replicate, and perhaps trigger the replication with object created/modified events | 18:21 |
| bjd | so, in theory, one ought to be able to send an object from one zodb to another? | 18:21 |
| srichter | yeah, I think you can do this with th eZEO protocol too, but I am not 100% sure | 18:22 |
| nerdalert | bjd: I dunno about direct zodb-to-zodb connections, but you can definitely set up a service to send/receive stuff | 18:22 |
| srichter | there are some replication storage approaches out there, liek ZRS or ZEO-RAID | 18:22 |
| bjd | right, but ZRS is prohbitively expensive | 18:23 |
| srichter | well, if your project depends on it, it is not | 18:24 |
| srichter | and it is relatively little compared to what you will pay for Java technology | 18:24 |
| bjd | :-) | 18:24 |
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| bjd | assuming I've created a new object, commited it, and pickled it in Zope-A, and I pass it to a xml-rpc method in Zope-B that accepts a pickle, can Zope-B unpickle it and add it to it's ZODB? | 18:29 |
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| srichter | I think some syncing tools in Zope 2 took that approach | 18:31 |
| srichter | I think that zope.fssync would allow you this too | 18:31 |
| bjd | srichter: thanks, i just needed to check it doesn't send off alarm bells as really idiotic thing to even think about. | 18:32 |
| benji | bjd: I've not been following the conversation (and don't really have time to), but just using a file synchronization tool might be the easiest thing for you; just sync your Data.fs to another box | 18:32 |
| bjd | benji: wow... I didn't think it could be that simple... I assumed that would cause some corruption | 18:33 |
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| benji | if a transaction is in progress, you won't get that transaction, but you'll otherwise be OK | 18:34 |
| srichter | benji: is that safe? | 18:34 |
| srichter | ok, wow | 18:34 |
| srichter | I did not expect that | 18:34 |
| benji | this is only for backup though, you can't have the desitnation Data.fs open | 18:34 |
| bjd | ah... a bit more compled then... that problem also exists for DirectoryStorage | 18:35 |
| ignas | anyone fluent in buildout? | 18:45 |
| Theuni | no metaquestions ;) | 18:50 |
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| ignas | ok | 18:53 |
| ignas | how to find out what paths are in the dependency_links | 18:53 |
| ignas | when running with -D | 18:53 |
| ignas | and having an egg not found error | 18:53 |
| ignas | because i should have http://eggs.carduner.net/ in dependency_links of schooltool egg, and depend on z3c.javascript.mochikit | 18:54 |
| ignas | but the egg is not being found | 18:54 |
| ignas | Error: Couldn't find a distribution for z3c.javascript.mochikit>=0.0.1. is what buildout tells to me :/ | 18:55 |
| ignas | and the url is in the _links | 18:56 |
| ignas | and i have even tried adding the eggs.carduner.net linke to my find_links in buildout.cfg | 18:56 |
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| ignas | lisppaste6: url | 19:02 |
| lisppaste6 | To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/zope3-dev and enter your paste. | 19:02 |
| lisppaste6 | ignas pasted "the part of a recipe to install z3c javascript mochikit" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/40755 | 19:02 |
| ignas | this isolated snippet fails | 19:03 |
| ignas | and i can't understand why ... | 19:03 |
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| ignas | anyone has a recipe for a unit testable zc.buildout? | 19:33 |
| Theuni | not sure what that means | 19:34 |
| ignas | well - i have installed an egg | 19:34 |
| ignas | i think it has a bug | 19:34 |
| ignas | but i can't find a way to run it's unit tests | 19:34 |
| ignas | :/ | 19:34 |
| Theuni | ah | 19:36 |
| Theuni | you need a testrunner | 19:36 |
| Theuni | look at one of the recipes of the satellite projects i did | 19:36 |
| Theuni | all of them define testrunners | 19:36 |
| Theuni | oh wait, did you install an egg or do you have a bug in a project that is using buildout? | 19:37 |
| ignas | i think there is a bug in buildout | 19:37 |
| benji | ignas: the zc.buildout project is itself a buildout, and it includes a testrunner | 19:37 |
| Theuni | h | 19:37 |
| Theuni | thats what you meant | 19:37 |
| ignas | benji: and how do you run the tests for the buildout then? | 19:38 |
| benji | bin/test | 19:38 |
| benji | just like normal (I'm feeling that I'm not understanding your question) | 19:38 |
| ignas | benji: hmm, maybe i am installing the buildout wrong but i can only see ./buildout in the bin | 19:38 |
| benji | hmm, let me see | 19:39 |
| ignas | i am using the egg on pypi i think | 19:39 |
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| ignas | and i can only see 1 entry point | 19:40 |
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| benji | that's where we're misunderstanding each other; I'm talking about checking out the zc.buildout project | 19:40 |
| benji | that's what I would suggest | 19:41 |
| ignas | oh | 19:41 |
| ignas | and i was talking about buildout egg | 19:41 |
| ignas | benji: can you give me a link to the repository? | 19:41 |
| benji | svn+ssh://svn.zope.org/repos/main/zc.buildout/trunk | 19:42 |
| ignas | thanks | 19:42 |
| Theuni | holy cow | 19:42 |
| ignas | my best guess about the bug is that buildout somehow can't handle <a href="some.egg">some.e...</a> links | 19:42 |
| ignas | i want to check that now | 19:42 |
| Theuni | keeping buildouts of most trunk projects from svn.zope.org requires quite a few gigabytes of disk space | 19:43 |
| benji | ignas: if so, that'd be a problem with setuptools | 19:43 |
| ignas | benji: setuptools (at least the version i am using with schooltool, are handling everything properly) | 19:44 |
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| ignas | that's the main problem | 19:44 |
| ignas | i have posted the recipe that does not work ... | 19:45 |
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| ignas | ouch | 19:59 |
| ignas | it's not buildout | 19:59 |
| ignas | it's python2.4 eggs | 19:59 |
| ignas | vs python2.5 buildout | 19:59 |
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| benji | ahh | 20:01 |
| benji | that's one of the reasons I (and many others) suggest always providing source distributions (often instead of binary eggs, sometimes along with them) | 20:02 |
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| ignas | buildout tried to pass /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages instead of the path to the downloaded egg when installing docutils | 20:18 |
| Theuni | gnaaah | 20:19 |
| Theuni | svn.zope.org keeps falling over for some reason | 20:19 |
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| ignas | J1m: maybe you could help me a little bit? i have a buildout recipe that seems to be failing in a very interesting way ... | 20:39 |
| ignas | while installing docutils | 20:39 |
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| J1m | ignas, how so? | 20:40 |
| ignas | /usr/bin/python2.4 "-c" "from setuptools.command.easy_install import main; main()" "-mUNxd" "/home/ignas/src/buildout/eggs/tmpV8PA8E" "/usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages" | 20:40 |
| ignas | is the command it tries to run | 20:40 |
| ignas | when installing docutils egg | 20:40 |
| ignas | though docutils is available on ubuntu feisty | 20:40 |
| J1m | I don't see why it would try to install to site-packages. | 20:41 |
| lisppaste6 | ignas pasted "The failing buildout.cfg" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/40759 | 20:41 |
| J1m | Do you have your eggs-directory set to site packages? | 20:42 |
| ignas | no | 20:42 |
| ignas | oh | 20:42 |
| lisppaste6 | ignas annotated #40759 with "wrong name of the egg" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/40759#1 | 20:42 |
| ignas | installing schooltool gets the same error as installing docutils | 20:43 |
| ignas | so you might want to skip the 58 megs of Zope3 | 20:43 |
| J1m | I don't see why it would install to site-packages. | 20:44 |
| ignas | it tries to install "site-packages" not - into site packages | 20:45 |
| ignas | error: Couldn't find a setup script in /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages | 20:45 |
| J1m | ah | 20:46 |
| J1m | I wonder if they've done something wacky with setuptools. | 20:46 |
| J1m | I'll try that buildout. | 20:47 |
| ignas | thanks | 20:47 |
| J1m | I didn't get any errors. | 20:49 |
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| J1m | ignas, could you try not using your system Python? | 20:49 |
| ignas | J1m: hmm, compiling my own python 2.4 ? | 20:49 |
| J1m | If buildout (or any other Python program I wrote) had a warranty, it would be voided by using a system Python. | 20:50 |
| J1m | Yes | 20:50 |
| ignas | any easy ways to do that ? | 20:50 |
| ignas | like a buildout recipe or so | 20:50 |
| J1m | wget ... python download url | 20:50 |
| J1m | tar zxf thedownload | 20:51 |
| J1m | cd the directory | 20:51 |
| J1m | configure --prefix=target_dir | 20:51 |
| J1m | make | 20:51 |
| J1m | make install | 20:51 |
| J1m | It is pretty easy. | 20:51 |
| ignas | i can't recall all the prefix directories that are needed if i want to install it in my home dir | 20:52 |
| J1m | Just for laughs, I try your buildout with an ubuntu system python | 20:52 |
| J1m | Just --prefiix=some_dir | 20:52 |
| J1m | Just --prefix=some_dir | 20:52 |
| J1m | Just create a single directory and use it as a prefix. | 20:53 |
| ignas | ok | 20:53 |
| J1m | fwiw, whenever I start working on a machine, I: | 20:53 |
| J1m | create /usr/local/python with my ownership. | 20:54 |
| J1m | I then use prefixes like /usr/local/python/2.4.4 | 20:54 |
| J1m | If the parent dir exists, the prefix dir will get created automatically. | 20:54 |
| ignas | the problem is that our users won't be literate enough to compile their own version python :/ | 20:54 |
| ignas | another thing is that installing the egg the usual way (using setuptools) works | 20:55 |
| ignas | schooltool egg | 20:55 |
| ignas | J1m: indeed, a clean python installation installs docutils | 21:03 |
| ignas | but i will probably have to find out what is broken with default python in ubuntu and mokeypatch it :/ | 21:05 |
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| J1m | So does my unbuntu python. Bug ignas is gone. | 21:19 |
| J1m | So does my unbuntu python. But ignas is gone. | 21:19 |
| meatballhat | I have a Person class and an Activity class. Many Activities may be associated with individual Person objects. What is the best way to associate the two without duplicating the Person instances? | 21:19 |
| CrippsFX | I installed python from source into /opt, and then got Zope to look for it there. | 21:26 |
| CrippsFX | 'twas pretty easy | 21:26 |
| srichter | meatballhat: just list the activities in a tuple or list within the person | 21:27 |
| srichter | meatballhat: an alternaitve is to look at relationship packages, such as zc.relationship | 21:27 |
| meatballhat | srichter: thank you :D | 21:28 |
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| nerdalert | srichter: what does zc.relationship have to offer over the former choice? | 21:28 |
| srichter | bidirectionality | 21:28 |
| srichter | some querying benefits, I think | 21:29 |
| srichter | I have not used it myself yet | 21:29 |
| nerdalert | it's new? | 21:30 |
| srichter | well, it's there for a while | 21:30 |
| srichter | I just have not needed it yet | 21:30 |
| srichter | you basically only need relationships if you have many-to-many relationships | 21:31 |
| srichter | one-to-one is well solved using attribute assignment | 21:31 |
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| srichter | one-to-many is solved via containment | 21:31 |
| J1m | and even many-to-many can be well handled using simple Python refs. | 21:32 |
| J1m | I think external reference systems become interesting when: | 21:32 |
| J1m | - Separation of concerns makes adding direct references unattractive | 21:32 |
| J1m | - You have search requirements that specialized data structures can help with. | 21:33 |
| J1m | Otherwise, I prefer simpler solutions. | 21:33 |
| nerdalert | indeed | 21:33 |
| srichter | J1m: wow, it's interesting you did not come up with more use cases; that makes me feel a bit better that I usually do not use relationships :-) | 21:34 |
| J1m | I'm sure Gary coukld come up with more. :) | 21:35 |
| J1m | I'm sure Gary could come up with more. :) | 21:35 |
| srichter | he he | 21:35 |
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