IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2008-11-11

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projekt01any hints about the repos state?03:26
projekt01seems that some packages are gone because of failing revisions03:28
projekt01Error * Can't open file '/svn/repos/main/db/revs/70320': No such file or directory03:28
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malthewhat's up with svn commit12:47
Theunithe svn machine seems to be still broken12:54
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Theunias always, the us are just getting up at this point12:54
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benji_Theuni and malthe: when I get in the office (and the people that know show up), I'll find out what's going on and report13:58
benji_in the mean time I have to get 1 of 3 up and off to school ;)13:59
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benjifor those following along at home, is being worked on16:00
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zagygeee, the which-topic-is-right-for-context in is... well... at least strange16:10
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J1mzagy, is theune around?16:17
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J1mzagy, is Theune around?16:17
zagyhe's at a customer but might react16:17
philiKONTheuni: J1m wants you :)16:17
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J1mzagy, can you or someone else there get me a copy of your svn mirror?16:18
zagyJ1m: jens has access to the machine (I don't)16:18
* mgedmin has an svn mirror but it has only ~300 kbit/s uplink according to speedtest.net16:20
mgedminif you only needed svn dumps for a few specific revisions, I could help16:21
J1mI don't know enough about the internal structire of the repo or how to restore selected revisions.16:21
J1mIs that possible?16:21
mgedminI think so, but you have to do that incrementally AFAIU16:22
mgedminI.e. restore revs 1-2000 from one dump, then 2001-2005 from another, etc.16:22
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J1mso we can't restore specific revisions when we have later ones?16:23
mgedminI don't think so16:23
mgedminyou'd need to create an empty repo (with the same UUID so as not to break people's checkouts), then dump and load stuff into it16:23
mgedminmaybe svn gurus could find a better way16:24
mgedminI'm not a guru16:24
J1mme neither16:24
J1mI think it would probably be easies to get a copy of a mirror.16:25
TheuniJ1m: here16:25
Theunii have access to that data16:26
Theuniand we have sufficient bandwith16:26
J1mzagy, by jens, did you mean Jens Vagelpohl?16:26
mgedminyay saved!16:26
Theunii'll tar up the svn dir and get you an http url?16:27
J1mscp it to your home dir on svn.zope.org16:28
zagywhat would we do without the dzug ;)16:28
philiKONcouldn't jim just do an svn mirror of ?16:28
Theunigood idea16:28
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mgedmin tells you how16:28
mgedminbut it's not very fast16:28
Theunii'll scp it16:28
philiKONyeah would proably be faster16:29
TheuniJ1m: i think we'd be happy to mirror you off on all the moveable data on that machine in general.16:30
J1mwell, the only think other than svn is cvs, the kgs and the pypi mirror.16:31
philiKONKGS can be regenerated. pypi mirror can be done locally as well. anybody still using CVS?16:32
J1mI don't think anyone is writing to cvs anymore.16:32
J1mwe didn't move everything to svn.16:32
philiKONhmm true16:33
J1mso it is still used for reading.16:33
J1mI think I made a copy a while ago.  I should double check that.16:33
J1mOf course, we should ahve backups of everything, but in the last system failure in April, the svn backup jobs in cron got commented out and were never uncommented. :(16:34
TheuniJ1m: i'm on my way. this will take a while to move.16:35
Theunithe machine is relatively busy16:36
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J1mwrt mirroring, I think we're going to set up an internal mirror.16:43
J1mIf we had that, we'd be in better shape,16:44
Theuniluckily for svn, mirroring is really easy16:44
J1mwe'd load balence the web sites and the repo read access.16:44
mintsauceWhen declaring a field in an interface, is it possible to set it as 'hidden' - so that forms don't display fields to edit it?16:44
J1mmintsauce, no. YOu should do that in your form definition.16:45
philiKONmintsauce: this is not the schema's concern16:45
philiKONmintsauce: what J1m says.16:45
philiKONmintsauce: e.g.   form_fields = Fields(IFoo).omit('bar')16:45
J1mand you should not create an interface just to drive a form.16:45
J1mSchemas are elegent, but I wonder if they were a net win.16:46
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mintsauceall good advice, thanks16:47
mintsaucej1m - coming from a plone background, schemas were instantly familiar - in a warm fuzzy way ;)16:47
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rockyis something up with svn:// ?17:07
philiKONyup, machine failure17:07
philiKONthey're restoring right now17:07
mintsaucewhen setting up a field index, should the interface chosen be that of the interface containing the field you want to index?17:11
philiKONof course17:12
rockyon aside, i just released ClueBzrServer which is a very minimalistic auth-configurable bzr http server17:13
mintsaucephiliKON: ditto the field i guess?17:13
jhauserwhich is very cool to have rocky :-)17:13
philiKONmintsauce: huh?17:14
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philiKONmintsauce: if you have IFoo with a 'bar' field and you'd like all objects that provide IFoo or are adaptable to IFoo to have their 'bar' attribute indexed, configure your index for IFoo and 'bar'17:15
philiKONmintsauce: i suggest reading the chapter on the catalog17:15
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mintsaucephiliKON: i have - but it's mainly on text indexing - which is slightly different - just checking my assumptions were correct :)17:15
rockyjhauser: have you tried it or are you just trying to be sarcastic? :)17:16
philiKONtextindex is just different in how you can query it17:16
philiKONall catalog indices are attribute-based indexes17:16
jhausernot yet, but I needed something like this, to host internal sources behind an nginx proxy17:17
jhauserand I didn't want to setup a wsgi/apache config just for that17:17
jhauserrocky: so nowhere I'm sarcastic17:18
rockyoh cool :)17:18
rockyi'm considering integrating loggerhead too but i haven't decided yet17:18
rockythe auth configuration is done via repoze.who17:18
* rocky loves it that the bzr http smart server is just a wsgi app17:18
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rockyhm, taking a while for to come back17:21
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mgedminTheuni: what's the % for that scp?17:21
J1mrocky, it's going to take a while.17:22
rockyoh :/17:22
benjiWell, he's...he's, ah...probably pining for the fjords.17:22
J1mour backup process failed, so we have to get a backup from Theuni's mirror.17:22
rockyJ1m: any discussions on moving zope svn to a newer vcs like hg or git or bzr ?17:25
J1mfeel free to bring it up on zope-dev.17:25
J1mif we used bzr, then I think launchpad would host it for us.17:26
mgedminpreferably after having a converted repository for demos17:26
* rocky 's preference is with bzr these days but he likes them all alot better than svn17:28
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mgedminrocky: what's the largest project you use bzr for, and how long do you have to wait for the initial checkout?17:29
rockymgedmin: i don't manage any projects with bzr atm ... i mean i use bzr to checkout and work on various projects from launchpad and i've been using bzr-svn for quite some time17:29
rockyi'm not going to be the one to push bzr ;)17:29
rockyi was just curious17:29
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* mgedmin had very high hopes for bzr and is disillusioned now17:30
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Theunimgedmin: same here17:31
rockymgedmin: if you're interested in that info i suggest you browse launchpad for a big project and try working with it :)17:31
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mgedminI've become disillusioned precisely because I tried to use bzr17:32
rockyhow so?17:32
mgedminseveral times, each time after believing claims that all previous (performance and reliability) problems have been fixed17:32
benjiIf anyone is deeply interested in shephearding a change of VCS, they should pay attention to the related discussion on python-dev (proto-PEP at
bigkevmcdmgedmin: Launchpad itself recently became self-hosted (through bzr)17:33
mgedminthey cheat by having in-house bzr developers to provide support ;-)17:34
rockybzr is very nice to manage from an admin perspective tho, i will say that17:34
bigkevmcdyip...very little to do :-)17:34
TheuniI find bzr (and distributed VCS) extremely annoying regarding revision numbers17:34
rockymgedmin: have you tried out the python bzr mirror ?17:35
Theunirocky, bigkevmcd: no it isn't17:35
Theuniit's a hell of a job17:35
rockyTheuni: huh?17:35
bigkevmcdTheuni: huh?17:35
Theunihow do you do mailing lists?17:35
Theuniuser/group-based access to repositories?17:35
mgedminlaunchpad does mailing lists for bzr commits17:35
Theuniaside from launchpad17:35
Theuniif you can't use bzr without launchpad, it's worthless imho17:35
bigkevmcdTheuni: post_commit = bzrlib.plugins.bzrcommitmessage.send_commit17:36
rockyTheuni: huh? that's not an admin-for-bzr issue... that's a supporting-apps-for-bzr issue17:36
mgedminI was only mentioning that as an example that there's a working plugin17:36
bigkevmcdwe don't host on Launchpad, yet...17:36
Theunirocky: with svn i have a few (3-4) repositories that need this tweaking each hosting a bazillion of projects17:36
mgedminthough I'm not sure if it works with merges...17:36
rockybzr doesn't try to solve those issues17:36
mgedminor was that pushes?17:36
rockyTheuni: yeah but svn core doesn't solve those problems, you use supporting apps to solve those problems on svn17:37
Theuniif i understand bzr corretly i have to set this property on each project as each project needs a new repository17:37
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Theunirocky: no, but svn doesn't make it extra hard17:37
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rockyeach project does not need it's own repo ... but that does seem the preferred way of managing it yes17:37
rockyTheuni: you can do one bzr repo for your bazillion projects if you want17:37
bigkevmcdyou can created a shared repository, if you like17:37
Theunirocky: which means that each project always mixes up the history of all other projects17:37
rockybzr init-repo myrepo; cd myrepo; bzr init --create-prefix MyProject/trunk17:38
rockyTheuni: lol yeah, but that's what svn does anyways17:38
Theunisvn is very happy to let you slice through it on the hierarchy17:38
TheuniAFAIU bzr always works repository-wide17:38
TheuniI can simply go ahead and ask for 'svn log svn+ssh://'17:40
TheuniAnd I can get a checkout of that one dir, without pulling in everything else.17:40
TheuniAFAIU bzr always operates on the repository-level for those operations17:40
bigkevmcdTheuni: I'm guessing you've not used bzr17:41
TheuniI tried using it for a good while.17:41
TheuniAlso, the revision number thing is really annoying.17:41
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TheuniI wish I could be using bzr, but after what happened while we tried using it (and after svn grew merge tracking) I'm really not that excited anymore.17:43
rockywell, all dcvs systems seem to have issue with the rev number thing, but i agree it's annoying17:44
CSWookieI used bzr for a while.  I'm fairly sure that we didn't use it as intended though, because we didn't get much more benefit off of it than we would have from knowing what we were doing regarding branches.17:44
rockyyou can't treat bzr as a svn subsitute ... that's one big lesson i've learned recently17:45
TheuniCSWookie: That's what my feeling was initially too.17:45
TheuniHowever, the answer that I got was "use launchpad" but that's not an option for me.17:45
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TheuniCSWookie: for us, simple tasks like checking in would go into huge steps of 'commit', 'merge', 'push' ...17:46
Theuniand the eventuall pull in between17:46
bigkevmcdwere you using a local bound branch?17:46
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rockyyep, that's using bzr as a svn substitute17:46
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bigkevmcdwe maintain a branch of trunk locally, which is bound to a branch we agree is our trunk17:46
rockywell sort of17:47
bigkevmcdwe then branch off all sorts of branches for fixes, features etc17:47
bigkevmcdand then, they get merged to trunk17:47
Theunianyway. subversion has a dead simple workflow. bzr can't even agree on one.17:47
rockyTheuni: cvs as a dead simple workflow too ;)17:47
Theunithe only thing that would interest me currently would be working offline, but then again, it's not that big an issue17:48
TheuniI feel like I just don't have the problem that bzr solves.17:48
J1mI've been pretty happing using svk to work offline.17:48
TheuniJ1m: yup. I heard that from philiKON too.17:48
rockyTheuni: what you're describing seems to be more of a dislike of DCVS working concepts rather than a problem with bzr specifically17:48
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philiKONTheuni, J1m: i'd like to investigate bzr-svn myself, though17:49
Theunirocky: might be.17:49
rockyi've been using bzr-svn alot ... for me it's a lot better than svk for offline svn access but it's a bit buggier17:49
TheuniphiliKON: that's using bzr as a local thing to work offline against a subversion repository?17:49
benjiI'll throw in that git-svn integration looks very nice.17:50
rockybenji: yeah i've heard that too17:50
philiKONi  have an irrational dislike of git17:50
CSWookieI think it's funny to use something called "git" to keep track ofyour "knowledge work".17:50
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mgedmingit is very friendly to a console hacker17:54
mgedminI was surprised17:54
mgedmincolorizing logs/diffs and piping them to less automatically17:54
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TheuniphiliKON: i hate it because revision numbers become mumbo jumbo17:57
Theunii mean. at least they don't pretend to have reasonable revision numbers17:57
Theunibut i'd like to have them.17:57
Theunibzr tries to cobble some together and make me feel welcome until i try to actually use them17:58
TheuniJ1m: the backup is flowing into now18:01
J1mI thought you were going to upload a (compressed somehow) tar ball18:02
Theunii bailed on that because the machine was dogslow tarring (with and without) compression18:02
J1mso how are you transfering it?18:02
J1mdid you tell it to use compression?18:03
J1myou can configure ssh to compress as it goes.18:03
Theunii know.18:03
J1mThis generally speeds things up a lot.18:03
TheuniI'm trying to be easy on the CPUs.18:04
Theunii'm a bit surprised about the low bandwith though18:04
Theunido you do any throttling on your side by any chance?18:04
J1mGood question.18:04
J1mI'll check18:05
TheuniI see an outgoing rate of about 700k on my side and I'm sure our pipe can do more18:05
Theuni(It should be able to burst the full 100mbit)18:05
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J1m700k what?18:06
Theunikbytes per second18:06
J1mThat's not bad over a wan.18:06
TheuniTrue, could be better though. ;)18:06
Theunilooking at the CPUs i can switch on compression, I guess.18:07
mgedminrsync is not easy on the CPU18:07
Theunimgedmin: however, the actual usage on the machines involved is ok, so adding compression should be fine18:07
J1mYou may be having more trouble with disk than cpu18:07
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TheuniJ1m: i saw it going into that machine with a much higher rate earlier.18:08
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Theuniwhat surprises me more is that the first rsynced image on my intermediary server is much smaller18:09
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* J1m doesn't have a good feeling18:10
Theuniyou want one?18:11
J1mThat would be nice.18:11
TheuniI'll try to find one for you.18:11
* benji thinks Theuni has started dealing drugs.18:11
J1man advantage of rsync is that it can recover from a lots connection.18:11
* J1m wonder if he should ask mgedmin to put hist copy on a dvd and fedex it18:13
* J1m wonders if he should ask mgedmin to put his copy on a dvd and fedex it18:14
J1mdarn, those s's can wander18:14
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mgedminscp would take ~8 hours18:16
mgedminfedex would probably take longer18:16
TheuniJ1m: I'm confident that my original copy is good. I'm relatively sure my intermediary copy is good. I wonder whether `du` is lying to me.18:16
sp0cksbeardJim: The late Jim Gray actually did that once:
mgedmindifferent filesystem block size?18:17
TheuniThe two machines have different file systems and I wonder whether this huge amount of tiny files creates a large overhead that mounts up to this huge deviation.18:17
Theunimgedmin: that's what I'm thinking.18:17
J1mTheuni, use -h18:17
Theuniwhy would that help?18:17
mgedmindu --apparent-size might be better18:17
J1mIt gives human-readable units.18:17
TheuniI already use that but it didn't help up until now. ;)18:18
Theunimgedmin: looks much better18:18
Theunigive another new set of two different numbers, but they only differ by 500 bytes18:19
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Theunimy original backup server and the target both run ext3, so i hope the output of those is comparable18:19
mgedminext3 can use either 1kb blocks or 4kb blocks18:19
Theunithe intermediate server has xfs18:20
mgedminalthough 4kb was made the default a long time ago18:20
mgedminthat explains the discrepancy18:20
TheuniJ1m: i'm done18:20
Theunithe amount of files is identical18:21
Theuniand tests on the directories where the sum differs show identical file sizes18:21
J1mYou're done?18:21
J1mThe data has transfered to
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J1mMuch thanks!!!!!!!!!!!18:23
Theunithe du with apparent-size flag shows 1040507 kbytes on and 1040439 kbytes on my machine. you got some extra bytes along the way18:23
Theunii blame that on file systems18:24
Theuniyou're welcoe18:24
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TheuniToday "s"s are wandering and "m"s are hiding.18:24
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bigkevmcdand someone bought the !s in bulk18:31
sawdogwhere's the easiest way in a zc.buildout to find what package is requiring a specific dependency?  I've got a buildout which is failing on ZConfig == 2.5.1 dependency....but am having a real hellofva time finding where the requirement is coming from.  I have all the packages in my own index - but greping through everything looking for a clue,i.e. ZConfig and 2.5.1 are getting me no where18:36
J1mrun in verbose mode, -v18:36
sawdogright, got that far18:36
J1mLook at the output.18:36
sawdogis it the preceeding package?18:36
J1mIt tells you why it is getting something.18:37
J1mIt says something along the line of "Getting foo\nrequired by ..."18:37
sawdogNope, here's what I've got;18:37
sawdogInstalling zc.zope3recipes >=0.5.318:38
sawdogPicked: zc.zope3recipes = 0.6.218:38
sawdoggetting required ZConfig == 2.5.118:38
sawdogWe have no distributions for ZConfig that satisfy ZConfig==2.5.118:38
sawdoggetting distribution for ZConfig==2.5.118:39
J1mHm, try -vv18:39
sawdogah, I had also tried -vvv (but not -vv)  :)18:39
sawdoggood, more info there - checking18:39
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sawdogyeah, basically the same thing when it gets into the failure bits18:41
sawdogit's not telling me which package is requiring the one I'm failing on18:42
sawdogunless it's as simple as the preceeding package18:42
J1mYeah, I guess it is. But my output is different than yours.18:43
J1mFor example, for a small buildout:18:44
J1mInstalling 'zc.replaylog'.18:44
J1mWe have a develop egg: zc.replaylog 0.118:44
J1mGetting required 'Twisted'18:44
J1m  required by zc.replaylog 0.1.18:44
J1mWe have the best distribution that satisfies 'Twisted'.18:44
J1mPicked: Twisted = 8.1.018:44
J1mGetting required 'setuptools'18:44
J1m  required by zc.replaylog 0.1.18:44
J1mWe have the best distribution that satisfies 'setuptools'.18:44
J1mPicked: setuptools = 0.6c918:44
J1mGetting required 'zope.interface'18:44
J1m  required by Twisted
J1mWe have the best distribution that satisfies 'zope.interface'.18:44
J1mThat's with -v.18:44
J1mI wonder if you have a very old version of buildout.18:44
sawdogchecking that; that's what I was just thinking18:45
sawdogah, I checked zc.buildout from svn trunk18:45
sawdogshould I use 1.1.1 from pypi instead?18:46
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J1mYeah. I home someone didn't screw up the trunk.18:46
J1mThere are tests that test this behavior.18:46
sawdogI grabbed this the other day; let me check 1.1.1 real quick18:46
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sawdoginstalled 1.1.118:51
mintsaucehello again18:51
sawdogand same output18:51
mintsauceI have a schema based object that i want to 'attach' a number of images too - are there any recommended components to achieve this?18:52
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mintsaucein fact, is there a schema field for this?18:54
sawdogisn't telling me what it's required in your example Jim.  We'll, I'll keep bashing my head for the time beinh18:54
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sawdogThanks Jim, I'll let you know how I fare.......appreciate it19:05
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* mintsauce thinking collective.namedfile is the way to go?19:21
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J1mOK, I think the subversion repo is back.19:22
mgedminyay, I think19:23
J1mCan people try it out and let me know if they see any problems?19:23
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srichterJ1m: yay19:36
srichterthanks a lot for all the hard work!19:36
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nyois it possible to upgrade viewvc or whatever it needs to make sorting by date work in svn browser view?20:00
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mgedminnyo: you can use
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nyomgedmin: i know that, but it would be great if it was fixed in "official" svn view as well:)20:06
mgedminmy wish is that the official svn view was a trac instance...20:06
nyomgedmin: +1 for that20:07
nyotrac's browser and revision log viewer is great20:07
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* mgedmin is trying to figure out why his mirror is locked20:09
mgedminah, sudo -u syncuser /usr/bin/svn propdel svn:sync-lock --revprop -r 0 file:///stuff/zope-mirror20:12
mgedminworks now20:12
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