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| Count-Duckula | I've got a interface/model class, how do I create an instance which has the attributes of the interface without putting them in the model? | 14:05 |
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| afd__ | Count-Duckula: you could a loop after the class declaration that iterates over the interface field declarations and setattr on the class, with FieldProperty instances | 14:27 |
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| afd__ | but most of the times is not that practic... in some cases you FieldProperty might not be the property type that you want | 14:27 |
| afd__ | z3c.language.switch, z3c.extfile and some others define new property types (I think they're called data managers?) | 14:28 |
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| Count-Duckula | I might be missing something, It's for a database, collective.mercury has set up all the models/interfaces and I'm setting up formlibs to view them. But If I want to create a new row, I need an instance of the table class that a user can set stuff into and just ... tableclass() doesn't do it. | 14:29 |
| Count-Duckula | it complains that the tableclass doesn't have the attributes of the interface. | 14:30 |
| afd__ | I'll look at collective.mercury, it would help if you pasted some code :) | 14:31 |
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| mintsauce | how would i go about using define-slots in tal for meta tags? i.e: <meta name="description" content="blah" /> | 14:33 |
| mintsauce | i want to fill the content="" with dynamic data .. | 14:34 |
| afd__ | mintsauce: look at z3c.macro | 14:34 |
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| mintsauce | afd__: looking at it now ... | 14:35 |
| lisppaste6 | Count-Duckula pasted "model/interface" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71158 | 14:38 |
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| mintsauce | afd__: sorry - still a bit lost ... | 14:41 |
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| afd__ | Count-Duckula: http://dev.plone.org/collective/browser/collective.mercury/examples/Timesheets/model.py | 14:42 |
| afd__ | the example references collective.tin | 14:42 |
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| mintsauce | afd__: got it :) | 14:47 |
| afd__ | mintsauce: cool :) | 14:47 |
| Count-Duckula | I presume by looking at that, that ItemFactory just does the looping to create the attributes on the class | 14:48 |
| afd__ | mintsauce: http://play.pixelblaster.ro/blog/archive/2007/12/17/template-layout-options-when-developing-with-zope-3 | 14:49 |
| mintsauce | afd__: great thanks :) | 14:50 |
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| afd__ | Count-Duckula: the code in collective.tin.factory is a bit weird... I see no reason for it to use formlib | 14:57 |
| afd__ | or maybe applyData doesn't belong in formlib | 14:57 |
| Count-Duckula | afd__: I've been looking at that and agree, very odd code. I can't work out where it's giving the class the attributes of the schema either. | 14:58 |
| afd__ | line 51 | 14:58 |
| afd__ | http://dev.plone.org/collective/browser/collective.tin/trunk/collective/tin/factory.py | 14:58 |
| afd__ | or 43 | 14:59 |
| afd__ | or not :) | 14:59 |
| Count-Duckula | afd__: The setattr? | 15:01 |
| afd__ | I don't think the table objects from the Timetable example are comparable to content models from z3 | 15:02 |
| afd__ | the factory from collective.tin doesn't appear to concern itself with decorating the class with the interface information | 15:03 |
| afd__ | and the requirement to use the factory to create an instance is another clue to this | 15:03 |
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| afd__ | but you probably should not care about that | 15:04 |
| afd__ | to create a new instance of the object (a row in the table), just use the ItemFactory | 15:04 |
| afd__ | and the formlib view, generate it from the interface | 15:05 |
| Count-Duckula | afd__: Thanks a lot, appreciate it. | 15:06 |
| afd__ | np | 15:06 |
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| mintsauce | im adding a value to a PersistentDict | 19:05 |
| mintsauce | but the dict seems to 'forget' that value once the site is restarted ... | 19:06 |
| mcdonc | PersistentMapping you mean? | 19:06 |
| mintsauce | mcdonc: yup | 19:06 |
| mintsauce | do i need to set a modified flag? | 19:06 |
| mintsauce | someone mentioned this recently | 19:07 |
| * mintsauce assumed values added to a persistent object would automatically me persistent? | 19:07 | |
| afd___ | mintsauce: maybe you need to run transaction.commit() | 19:07 |
| afd___ | I don't know why, though. You know your setup better :) | 19:08 |
| mintsauce | afd___: i've only ever had to do that when modifying via pdb | 19:08 |
| mcdonc | yeah the only thing i can think of is not committing | 19:08 |
| afd___ | mintsauce: are you attaching the dict instance to a non-persistent object? I vaguely recall there might be difficulties when doing this | 19:10 |
| afd___ | object not derived from Persistent | 19:10 |
| afd___ | maybe mcdonc knows better about this | 19:10 |
| mintsauce | its type shows as class 'persistent.dict.PersistentDict'> | 19:11 |
| mintsauce | even transaction.commit() doesnt save it - this is very odd ... | 19:12 |
| mcdonc | if you're attaching it to some non-first-class persistent object, it wont be saved unless *that* object is "modified" | 19:13 |
| mintsauce | ahhh ...... im adding it to a list, which is a value in a dict ..... | 19:14 |
| mcdonc | yeah. set _p_changed on the object that the list is an attribute of | 19:14 |
| mcdonc | or rather, set p_changed on the object of which the dict that the list is an attribute of ;-) | 19:15 |
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| mintsauce | mcdonc: thats got it - thanks :) | 19:18 |
| mcdonc | np ;-) | 19:18 |
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| mintsauce | You know, the best thing about the popularity of Django? I get 2-to-1 support from #zope3-dev ;) | 19:21 |
| afd___ | ? | 19:22 |
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| mintsauce | I get great support from you guys, because hardly anyone uses the channel ;) | 19:23 |
| afd___ | eh | 19:23 |
| mintsauce | They're all in Django - or whatever else is cool this month! | 19:23 |
| afd___ | most of the guys here don't need help | 19:23 |
| mintsauce | Not many newbies .... is that a good or bad thing? | 19:24 |
| mintsauce | (or not many people need as much help as me!) | 19:24 |
| afd___ | depends on the ego, I guess | 19:25 |
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| mintsauce | lol | 19:28 |
| afd___ | mintsauce: I was just reading (for nefarious reasons) and I can't see it being cooler then zope. Has some nice parts and is simple, but there are faults to be found (as everywhere) | 19:28 |
| afd___ | for one, the templating system seems ugly. All those tags and filters just to avoid having a python: type of expression | 19:29 |
| mintsauce | afd___: heh - i should of written 'cool' instead ... | 19:29 |
| mintsauce | afd___: i looked into Django before I went with Zope3 - its nice, but there's lots of stuff Zope3 does better | 19:30 |
| mintsauce | It's 'Pythonicness' is the biggest hook for me | 19:30 |
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| afd___ | design patterns all over and xml files? :-) | 19:31 |
| mintsauce | I also use Plone a lot - so lots of the techniques carry over (even the annoying ones) ;) | 19:32 |
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| afd___ | mintsauce: name some annoying techniques | 19:32 |
| mintsauce | heh | 19:32 |
| afd___ | I'm preparing some training materials for z3, so it's in the name of research | 19:33 |
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| mintsauce | zcml is the obvious candidate - that was my biggest hurdle initially - although it does eventually make sense, I haven't had a zcml based bug in a while. | 19:34 |
| mintsauce | But then of course Grok deals with that .... | 19:34 |
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| afd___ | plone takes the zcml from z3 :) | 19:37 |
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| mintsauce | afd___: exactly :) | 19:40 |
| mintsauce | its a real shame it looks like plone will never fully move to z3 | 19:41 |
| mintsauce | for me at least ... | 19:41 |
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| Count-Duckula | mintsauce: should it? without a complete rewrite anyway, wouldn't it still just be plone. It's a shame Z3 doesn't have a good component CMF. | 19:42 |
| danfairs | afd___, mintsauce: I do quite a lot of stuff with Django. It's biggest advantages are that it natively uses a RDBMS (yes, we know they suck) but they're familiar and non-scary, and that the tutorial on the front page is of the django project is clear and useful :) | 19:42 |
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| mintsauce | hey dan :) | 19:43 |
| danfairs | It's all just another set of compromises :) | 19:43 |
| danfairs | mintsauce: yo ;) | 19:43 |
| mintsauce | Count-Duckula: i suppose not really - it's just a bind having to reset my brain to Zope2 when i use it ;) | 19:44 |
| afd___ | mintsauce: this days when using Plone, it helps a lot if you know z3 | 19:45 |
| afd___ | of course, that's obvious | 19:45 |
| mintsauce | danfairs: Compromises is right - it's all about what compromises suit you ... | 19:45 |
| danfairs | mintsauce: Right. There's always a point I get to in a Django project where I say 'Damn... I really want zope.component here'. And the great thing about Z3 these days is that I can just put that in the buildout, and I'm good to go :) | 19:46 |
| Count-Duckula | mintsauce: I still haven't moved to Z3 fully, still Plone. But Plone's scalability scares me, so I want to use Z3, but you loose a lot. | 19:46 |
| danfairs | Count-Duckula: You can scale plone, it just doesn't do it very well out of the box. | 19:46 |
| Count-Duckula | danfairs: I know that, but we've got the point where we know we're going to have to throw hardware at it and that's never a good starting position. | 19:47 |
| mintsauce | Count-Duckula: for small business sites i still use Plone - but for big bespoke projects (well one so far!) i'm using zope3 - there's too much in Plone I don't need | 19:48 |
| Count-Duckula | mintsauce: That's exactly what I'm after doing, if I can ever make the leap | 19:48 |
| afd___ | danfairs: is it possible to do a list (ordered container) with django orm? I think sqlalchemy has a plugin for that, but it's really convoluted | 19:51 |
| danfairs | afd___: Not natively. You'd add an 'ordinal' field or something an order on that. Relational databases are set manipulation engines, and sets are unordered ;) You need something to ORDER BY. | 19:54 |
| danfairs | It's a point I've heard raised a couple of times, but I don't really buy it to be honest - it's trivially solved by the addition of an extra column. Big deal. | 19:54 |
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| danfairs | afd___: Storing trees of objects *is* more of a problem, and something Zope's really good at. | 19:55 |
| danfairs | (Presumably that's why it's wound up as a great basis for content management systems). | 19:55 |
| afd___ | I've asked this question because I didn't see the issue tackled in the Django docs, and I have struggled in the past with SA and Elixir on achieving this | 19:56 |
| afd___ | http://elixir.ematia.de/trac/wiki/Recipes/UsingEntityForOrderedList | 19:56 |
| afd___ | I was probably looking for too much automatition here... | 19:56 |
| danfairs | afd___: Right, it's basically using the extra column technique I mentioned before - that postition field. | 19:57 |
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| afd___ | yes, it also maintains that value automatically | 19:58 |
| afd___ | ok, thanks for letting me know. I don't have that much experience with ORMs, so any info helps :) | 19:59 |
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| danfairs | afd___: To be honest, I've only used the Django ORM and something called SubSonic for .NET. Django's is miles better ;) | 20:01 |
| danfairs | Not used SQL Alchemy, yet. | 20:01 |
| afd___ | the caching system is nice. I like how easy is to cache a page subset, with a key even | 20:01 |
| afd___ | http://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/cache/#template-fragment-caching | 20:01 |
| danfairs | I guess with Zope you could write a viewlet manager that knew how to cache viewlets... but it's nice that it's built in. | 20:05 |
| afd___ | danfairs: lovely.responsecache does that | 20:05 |
| danfairs | wrt your earlier point about the template language - yes, it's pig ugly :) But the 'lack' of power stops your templates turning into the kind of spaghetti mix of HTML and Python expressions you often find in (perhaps older?) Plone templates. | 20:06 |
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| afd___ | I don't agree about the mix of python in the Plone templates. The bigger problems with those are the many levels of indirections, but I don't think even a list of 20 python expressions (usually defines and so on) are that hard or ugly | 20:07 |
| afd___ | but I don't have that much experience with a wider variety of template systems to have a valid opinion about this :) | 20:08 |
| danfairs | I think it probably boils down to personal taste at the end of the day :) But on balance - I prefer to have less power in the templates themselves. It forces the logic out into the view class (or function, in Django's case) which simplifies the template for your designers, and gives you as the developer a better opportunity to debug by stepping through code, and to write unit tests. | 20:09 |
| danfairs | But hey - I use both, most days :) | 20:09 |
| afd___ | one thing that feels weird in Django is how focused is some of the API. I know these are common cases, but still feels funny | 20:10 |
| danfairs | afd___: not sure I understand what you mean? | 20:10 |
| afd___ | I'm looking at the User class, and it has a method email_user() | 20:10 |
| afd___ | and some other utilities to retrieve the messages in some inbox that belongs to the user | 20:11 |
| afd___ | wouldn't this sort of stuff belong in some other, 3rd party package attached to the user module? | 20:11 |
| afd___ | at least that would be the z3 way | 20:11 |
| danfairs | There are some funny warts here and there :) | 20:12 |
| danfairs | The Django philosophy is that you go download Django and you can be productive, right away, without having to download a load of dependencies, understand 3rd party APIs, etc. | 20:12 |
| afd___ | right. They may be unto something :) | 20:12 |
| danfairs | All the docs you need are there on the Django web site, and Django natively does 80-90% of what you probably want to do for an average (for some definitition of average!) site. | 20:12 |
| danfairs | I mean... getting started with Zope 3. How do I do it? Where's the big Zope 3 tutorial? Where's the tarball? | 20:13 |
| danfairs | :) | 20:13 |
| danfairs | Django has a very low barrier to entry... | 20:13 |
| afd___ | z3 is elite, doesn't need that :) | 20:13 |
| danfairs | (I know the answer to all of those btw, but I suspect it's non-obvious to a newbie) | 20:13 |
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| danfairs | Z3 is funny. It reminds me of when I did Haskell at uni. You'd spend about an hour meditating on a solution, write 2 lines of code and you're done... | 20:14 |
| afd___ | :) | 20:14 |
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| imgrey | evening #zope3-dev | 20:40 |
| imgrey | what is recomended version of zope3 at the moment ? | 20:41 |
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| mgedmin | imgrey: 3.4 from KGS | 20:46 |
| imgrey | mgedmin, KGS ? | 20:46 |
| imgrey | mgedmin, this one: http://www.zope.org/Products/Zope3/3.4.0c1 ? | 20:46 |
| mgedmin | Known Good Set | 20:46 |
| mgedmin | there was a page describing it, but I cannot find it | 20:46 |
| mgedmin | nobody cares about the front page of download.zope.org :( | 20:47 |
| imgrey | .o(indeed) | 20:47 |
| mgedmin | tarballs are ... well, nobody cares about them either | 20:47 |
| mgedmin | check out zopeproject on PyPI | 20:47 |
| mgedmin | oh, I give up | 20:47 |
| mgedmin | http://www.benjiyork.com/quick_start/ may be useful | 20:48 |
| mgedmin | no, it's outdated | 20:48 |
| ignas | imgrey: I recomend using zopeproject and then fixing the project generated using it, or just using grok | 20:48 |
| mgedmin | does zopeproject use the 3.4 KGS by default? | 20:48 |
| ignas | mgedmin: nope | 20:48 |
| mgedmin | maybe grok is the better entry point | 20:48 |
| ignas | mgedmin: not the last time i looked at it | 20:48 |
| ignas | though these are "ignas recommended methods" not "recommended methods" | 20:49 |
| * mgedmin has bucketfuls of negative energy, cheap | 20:49 | |
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| imgrey | ignas, what exactly need to be fixed ? :( | 20:49 |
| ignas | imgrey: if I had it written down - i would link it to you, but I can't even tell you precisely | 20:49 |
| ignas | what I do is - look at it, and make it use KGS, use my own bootstrap.py, and add a couple of parts to buildout.cfg | 20:50 |
| imgrey | Zope-3.4.0c1 is too outdated ? | 20:53 |
| imgrey | The thing is I need to setup application server and test how it works on storing large number of objects | 20:54 |
| imgrey | I was working with Zope2.9 some time | 20:54 |
| imgrey | does zope3 also supports various db backends and can be scaled ? | 20:55 |
| imgrey | zope3app is actual zope3 application server, right ? | 20:56 |
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| imgrey | I mean egg 'zope3app' | 20:56 |
| mgedmin | I believe we have Zope 3.4.0c8 or something like that, but no tarball for it | 20:57 |
| mgedmin | Zope 3.x is very very different from Zope 2.x | 20:57 |
| mgedmin | it's better to think of them as unrelated products | 20:57 |
| mgedmin | one is CMS-like, the other is more of a pure software framework | 20:57 |
| imgrey | mgedmin, is 2.9 still supported ? | 20:57 |
| mgedmin | 2.11 is the current 2.x version, isn't it? | 20:57 |
| imgrey | mgedmin, probably, I didn't follow | 20:58 |
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| imgrey | what python version is better to use with zope3, 2.4 or 2.5 ? | 21:01 |
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| ignas | imgrey: 2.4 | 21:20 |
| imgrey | what if zopeproject fails: http://dpaste.com/94439/ | 21:20 |
| ignas | imgrey: http://ignas.pov.lt/sample_zope_app/ if you would check it out and do "make" + "make run" | 21:20 |
| imgrey | ignas, but pysqlite depends from 2.5 now ( | 21:20 |
| ignas | imgrey: you can use 2.5 but there might be some bugs | 21:21 |
| imgrey | ignas, http://ignas.pov.lt/sample_zope_app/. there's an empty directory | 21:21 |
| ignas | the sample app should give you a running zope3 app that you can look at, and maybe even change | 21:21 |
| ignas | imgrey: bzr co it | 21:21 |
| imgrey | ah, ok | 21:22 |
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| ignas | it might work, it might not, but I must go, want to do some shopping before shops close | 21:22 |
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| mgedmin | people use 2.5 | 21:23 |
| imgrey | sorry for a dumb question, but how to checkout with bzr ? never used it before | 21:25 |
| imgrey | co puch/pull not working | 21:25 |
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| bigkevmcd | imgrey: bzr branch | 21:26 |
| imgrey | bigkevmcd, thanks a lot | 21:26 |
| bigkevmcd | imgrey: to keep it up-to-date, you'll want to bzr pull in the directory | 21:27 |
| imgrey | tnx | 21:27 |
| bigkevmcd | imgrey: locally, you can bzr branch <local-copy> and you can work on that | 21:27 |
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| ARiKA_ | Hi all!!! | 21:33 |
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| imgrey | I've hot 'Address already in use' in zdaemon.log | 21:39 |
| imgrey | what port it is trying to listen ? | 21:39 |
| bigkevmcd | probably 8080 | 21:40 |
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| imgrey | hmm, where I can change it ? | 21:40 |
| imgrey | oribably in zdaemon.conf | 21:41 |
| imgrey | but what option ? | 21:42 |
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| imgrey | great, I have managed to run zope3 http server | 21:46 |
| imgrey | but how can I create object storege now ? | 21:46 |
| imgrey | and what backend to use.. | 21:46 |
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| imgrey | oh no, I've got an exception | 23:07 |
| imgrey | http://dpaste.com/94465/ | 23:07 |
| imgrey | what should I do | 23:08 |
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| imgrey | seems this is a bug ( | 23:43 |
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| imgrey | https://bugs.launchpad.net/zopeproject/+bug/139993 | 23:45 |
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