IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2008-11-28

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Count-DuckulaI've got a interface/model class, how do I create an instance which has the attributes of the interface without putting them in the model?14:05
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afd__Count-Duckula: you could a loop after the class declaration that iterates over the interface field declarations and setattr on the class, with FieldProperty instances14:27
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afd__but most of the times is not that practic... in some cases you FieldProperty might not be the property type that you want14:27
afd__z3c.language.switch, z3c.extfile and some others define new property types (I think they're called data managers?)14:28
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Count-DuckulaI might be missing something, It's for a database, collective.mercury has set up all the models/interfaces and I'm setting up formlibs to view them.  But If I want to create a new row, I need an instance of the table class that a user can set stuff into and just ... tableclass() doesn't do it.14:29
Count-Duckulait complains that the tableclass doesn't have the attributes of the interface.14:30
afd__I'll look at collective.mercury, it would help if you pasted some code :)14:31
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mintsaucehow would i go about using define-slots in tal for meta tags? i.e: <meta name="description" content="blah" />14:33
mintsaucei want to fill the content="" with dynamic data ..14:34
afd__mintsauce: look at z3c.macro14:34
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mintsauceafd__: looking at it now ...14:35
lisppaste6Count-Duckula pasted "model/interface" at
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mintsauceafd__:  sorry - still a bit lost ...14:41
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afd__the example references collective.tin14:42
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mintsauceafd__: got it :)14:47
afd__mintsauce: cool :)14:47
Count-DuckulaI presume by looking at that, that ItemFactory just does the looping to create the attributes on the class14:48
mintsauceafd__: great thanks :)14:50
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afd__Count-Duckula: the code in collective.tin.factory is a bit weird... I see no reason for it to use formlib14:57
afd__or maybe applyData doesn't belong in formlib14:57
Count-Duckulaafd__: I've been looking at that and agree, very odd code.  I can't work out where it's giving the class the attributes of the schema either.14:58
afd__line 5114:58
afd__or 4314:59
afd__or not :)14:59
Count-Duckulaafd__: The setattr?15:01
afd__I don't think the table objects from the Timetable example are comparable to content models from z315:02
afd__the factory from collective.tin doesn't appear to concern itself with decorating the class with the interface information15:03
afd__and the requirement to use the factory to create an instance is another clue to this15:03
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afd__but you probably should not care about that15:04
afd__to create a new instance of the object (a row in the table), just use the ItemFactory15:04
afd__and the formlib view, generate it from the interface15:05
Count-Duckulaafd__: Thanks a lot, appreciate it.15:06
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mintsauceim adding a value to a PersistentDict19:05
mintsaucebut the dict seems to 'forget' that value once the site is restarted ...19:06
mcdoncPersistentMapping you mean?19:06
mintsaucemcdonc: yup19:06
mintsaucedo i need to set a modified flag?19:06
mintsaucesomeone mentioned this recently19:07
* mintsauce assumed values added to a persistent object would automatically me persistent?19:07
afd___mintsauce: maybe you need to run transaction.commit()19:07
afd___I don't know why, though. You know your setup better :)19:08
mintsauceafd___: i've only ever had to do that when modifying via pdb19:08
mcdoncyeah the only thing i can think of is not committing19:08
afd___mintsauce: are you attaching the dict instance to a non-persistent object? I vaguely recall there might be difficulties when doing this19:10
afd___object not derived from Persistent19:10
afd___maybe mcdonc knows better about this19:10
mintsauceits type shows as class 'persistent.dict.PersistentDict'>19:11
mintsauceeven transaction.commit() doesnt save it - this is very odd ...19:12
mcdoncif you're attaching it to some non-first-class persistent object, it wont be saved unless *that* object is "modified"19:13
mintsauceahhh ...... im adding it to a list, which is a value in a dict .....19:14
mcdoncyeah.  set _p_changed on the object that the list is an attribute of19:14
mcdoncor rather, set p_changed on the object of which the dict that the list is an attribute of ;-)19:15
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mintsaucemcdonc: thats got it - thanks :)19:18
mcdoncnp ;-)19:18
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mintsauceYou know, the best thing about the popularity of Django? I get 2-to-1 support from #zope3-dev ;)19:21
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mintsauceI get great support from you guys, because hardly anyone uses the channel ;)19:23
mintsauceThey're all in Django - or whatever else is cool this month!19:23
afd___most of the guys here don't need help19:23
mintsauceNot many newbies .... is that a good or bad thing?19:24
mintsauce(or not many people need as much help as me!)19:24
afd___depends on the ego, I guess19:25
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afd___mintsauce: I was just reading (for nefarious reasons) and I can't see it being cooler then zope. Has some nice parts and is simple, but there are faults to be found (as everywhere)19:28
afd___for one, the templating system seems ugly. All those tags and filters just to avoid having a python: type of expression19:29
mintsauceafd___: heh - i should of written 'cool' instead ...19:29
mintsauceafd___: i looked into Django before I went with Zope3 - its nice, but there's lots of stuff Zope3 does better19:30
mintsauceIt's 'Pythonicness' is the biggest hook for me19:30
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afd___design patterns all over and xml files? :-)19:31
mintsauceI also use Plone a lot - so lots of the techniques carry over (even the annoying ones) ;)19:32
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afd___mintsauce: name some annoying techniques19:32
afd___I'm preparing some training materials for z3, so it's in the name of research19:33
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mintsaucezcml is the obvious candidate - that was my biggest hurdle initially -  although it does eventually make sense, I haven't had a zcml based bug in a while.19:34
mintsauceBut then of course Grok deals with that ....19:34
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afd___plone takes the zcml from z3 :)19:37
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mintsauceafd___: exactly :)19:40
mintsauceits a real shame it looks like plone will never fully move to z319:41
mintsaucefor me at least ...19:41
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Count-Duckulamintsauce: should it? without a complete rewrite anyway, wouldn't it still just be plone.  It's a shame Z3 doesn't have a good component CMF.19:42
danfairsafd___, mintsauce: I do quite a lot of stuff with Django. It's biggest advantages are that it natively uses a RDBMS (yes, we know they suck) but they're familiar and non-scary, and that the tutorial on the front page is of the django project is clear and useful :)19:42
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mintsaucehey dan :)19:43
danfairsIt's all just another set of compromises :)19:43
danfairsmintsauce: yo ;)19:43
mintsauceCount-Duckula: i suppose not really - it's just a bind having to reset my brain to Zope2 when i use it ;)19:44
afd___mintsauce: this days when using Plone, it helps a lot if you know z319:45
afd___of course, that's obvious19:45
mintsaucedanfairs: Compromises is right - it's all about what compromises suit you ...19:45
danfairsmintsauce: Right. There's always a point I get to in a Django project where I say 'Damn... I really want zope.component here'. And the great thing about Z3 these days is that I can just put that in the buildout, and I'm good to go :)19:46
Count-Duckulamintsauce: I still haven't moved to Z3 fully, still Plone.  But Plone's scalability scares me, so I want to use Z3, but you loose a lot.19:46
danfairsCount-Duckula: You can scale plone, it just doesn't do it very well out of the box.19:46
Count-Duckuladanfairs: I know that, but we've got the point where we know we're going to have to throw hardware at it and that's never a good starting position.19:47
mintsauceCount-Duckula: for small business sites i still use Plone - but for big bespoke projects (well one so far!) i'm using zope3 - there's too much in Plone I don't need19:48
Count-Duckulamintsauce: That's exactly what I'm after doing, if I can ever make the leap19:48
afd___danfairs: is it possible to do a list (ordered container) with django orm? I think sqlalchemy has a plugin for that, but it's really convoluted19:51
danfairsafd___: Not natively. You'd add an 'ordinal' field or something an order on that. Relational databases are set manipulation engines, and sets are unordered ;) You need something to ORDER BY.19:54
danfairsIt's a point I've heard raised a couple of times, but I don't really buy it to be honest - it's trivially solved by the addition of an extra column. Big deal.19:54
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danfairsafd___: Storing trees of objects *is* more of a problem, and something Zope's really good at.19:55
danfairs(Presumably that's why it's wound up as a great basis for content management systems).19:55
afd___I've asked this question because I didn't see the issue tackled in the Django docs, and I have struggled in the past with SA and Elixir on achieving this19:56
afd___I was probably looking for too much automatition here...19:56
danfairsafd___: Right, it's basically using the extra column technique I mentioned before - that postition field.19:57
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afd___yes, it also maintains that value automatically19:58
afd___ok, thanks for letting me know. I don't have that much experience with ORMs, so any info helps :)19:59
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danfairsafd___: To be honest, I've only used the Django ORM and something called SubSonic for .NET. Django's is miles better ;)20:01
danfairsNot used SQL Alchemy, yet.20:01
afd___the caching system is nice. I like how easy is to cache a page subset, with a key even20:01
danfairsI guess with Zope you could write a viewlet manager that knew how to cache viewlets... but it's nice that it's built in.20:05
afd___danfairs: lovely.responsecache does that20:05
danfairswrt your earlier point about the template language - yes, it's pig ugly :) But the 'lack' of power stops your templates turning into the kind of spaghetti mix of HTML and Python expressions you often find in (perhaps older?) Plone templates.20:06
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afd___I don't agree about the mix of python in the Plone templates. The bigger problems with those are the many levels of indirections, but I don't think even a list of 20 python expressions (usually defines and so on) are that hard or ugly20:07
afd___but I don't have that much experience with a wider variety of template systems to have a valid opinion about this :)20:08
danfairsI think it probably boils down to personal taste at the end of the day :) But on balance - I prefer to have less power in the templates themselves. It forces the logic out into the view class (or function, in Django's case) which simplifies the template for your designers, and gives you as the developer a better opportunity to debug by stepping through code, and to write unit tests.20:09
danfairsBut hey - I use both, most days :)20:09
afd___one thing that feels weird in Django is how focused is some of the API. I know these are common cases, but still feels funny20:10
danfairsafd___: not sure I understand what you mean?20:10
afd___I'm looking at the User class, and it has a method email_user()20:10
afd___and some other utilities to retrieve the messages in some inbox that belongs to the user20:11
afd___wouldn't this sort of stuff belong in some other, 3rd party package attached to the user module?20:11
afd___at least that would be the z3 way20:11
danfairsThere are some funny warts here and there :)20:12
danfairsThe Django philosophy is that you go download Django and you can be productive, right away, without having to download a load of dependencies, understand 3rd party APIs, etc.20:12
afd___right. They may be unto something :)20:12
danfairsAll the docs you need are there on the Django web site, and Django natively does 80-90% of what you probably want to do for an average (for some definitition of average!) site.20:12
danfairsI mean... getting started with Zope 3. How do I do it? Where's the big Zope 3 tutorial? Where's the tarball?20:13
danfairsDjango has a very low barrier to entry...20:13
afd___z3 is elite, doesn't need that :)20:13
danfairs(I know the answer to all of those btw, but I suspect it's non-obvious to a newbie)20:13
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danfairsZ3 is funny. It reminds me of when I did Haskell at uni. You'd spend about an hour meditating on a solution, write 2 lines of code and you're done...20:14
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imgreyevening #zope3-dev20:40
imgreywhat is recomended version of zope3 at the moment ?20:41
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mgedminimgrey: 3.4 from KGS20:46
imgreymgedmin, KGS ?20:46
imgreymgedmin, this one: ?20:46
mgedminKnown Good Set20:46
mgedminthere was a page describing it, but I cannot find it20:46
mgedminnobody cares about the front page of :(20:47
mgedmintarballs are ... well, nobody cares about them either20:47
mgedmincheck out zopeproject on PyPI20:47
mgedminoh, I give up20:47
mgedmin may be useful20:48
mgedminno, it's outdated20:48
ignasimgrey: I recomend using zopeproject and then fixing the project generated using it, or just using grok20:48
mgedmindoes zopeproject use the 3.4 KGS by default?20:48
ignasmgedmin: nope20:48
mgedminmaybe grok is the better entry point20:48
ignasmgedmin: not the last time i looked at it20:48
ignasthough these are "ignas recommended methods"  not "recommended methods"20:49
* mgedmin has bucketfuls of negative energy, cheap20:49
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imgreyignas, what exactly need to be fixed ? :(20:49
ignasimgrey: if I had it written down - i would link it to you, but I can't even tell you precisely20:49
ignaswhat I do is - look at it, and make it use KGS, use my own, and add a couple of parts to buildout.cfg20:50
imgreyZope-3.4.0c1 is too outdated ?20:53
imgreyThe thing is I need to setup application server and test how it works on storing large number of objects20:54
imgreyI was working with Zope2.9 some time20:54
imgreydoes zope3 also supports various db backends and can be scaled ?20:55
imgreyzope3app is actual zope3 application server, right ?20:56
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imgreyI mean egg 'zope3app'20:56
mgedminI believe we have Zope 3.4.0c8 or something like that, but no tarball for it20:57
mgedminZope 3.x is very very different from Zope 2.x20:57
mgedminit's better to think of them as unrelated products20:57
mgedminone is CMS-like, the other is more of a pure software framework20:57
imgreymgedmin, is 2.9 still supported ?20:57
mgedmin2.11 is the current 2.x version, isn't it?20:57
imgreymgedmin, probably, I didn't follow20:58
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imgreywhat python version is better to use with zope3, 2.4 or 2.5 ?21:01
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ignasimgrey: 2.421:20
imgreywhat if zopeproject fails:
ignasimgrey: if you would check it out and do "make" + "make run"21:20
imgreyignas, but pysqlite depends from 2.5 now (21:20
ignasimgrey: you can use 2.5 but there might be some bugs21:21
imgreyignas, there's an empty directory21:21
ignasthe sample app should give you a running zope3 app that you can look at, and maybe even change21:21
ignasimgrey: bzr co it21:21
imgreyah, ok21:22
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ignasit might work, it might not, but I must go, want to do some shopping before shops close21:22
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mgedminpeople use 2.521:23
imgreysorry for a dumb question, but how to checkout with bzr ? never used it before21:25
imgreyco puch/pull not working21:25
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bigkevmcdimgrey: bzr branch21:26
imgreybigkevmcd, thanks a lot21:26
bigkevmcdimgrey: to keep it up-to-date, you'll want to bzr pull in the directory21:27
bigkevmcdimgrey: locally, you can bzr branch <local-copy> and you can work on that21:27
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ARiKA_Hi all!!!21:33
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imgreyI've hot 'Address already in use' in zdaemon.log21:39
imgreywhat port it is trying to listen ?21:39
bigkevmcdprobably 808021:40
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imgreyhmm, where I can change it ?21:40
imgreyoribably in zdaemon.conf21:41
imgreybut what option ?21:42
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imgreygreat, I have managed to run zope3 http server21:46
imgreybut how can I create object storege now ?21:46
imgreyand what backend to use..21:46
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imgreyoh no, I've got an exception23:07
imgreywhat should I do23:08
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imgreyseems this is a bug (23:43
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