IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-03-30

« Monday, 2010-03-29 Index Wednesday, 2010-03-31 »
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koshTresEquis: I did a lot of load testing on it for 2.12 and it did not seem to change00:34
koshTresEquis: basically crawled an entire site with about a thousand pages several times00:34
koshTresEquis: same memory usage with 4 threads as 1 thread per zserver00:34
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Theuni2it's that time again!17:00
betabugand that day of the week also?17:01
Theuni2true17:01
trollfotand it's raining over Paris17:01
betabugisn't it always?17:01
Theuni2So, here's today's agenda:17:01
Theuni2https://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2010-March/039860.html17:01
Theuni2Any comments on the agenda itself?17:02
trollfotnot for me17:03
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Theuni2Alright then. I'd like to continue with bug tracking then.17:03
Theuni2Last week we discussed how to deal with launchpad and I still have some stuff to do, but I'd also like to figure out how we can improve the handling of the bugs itself.17:03
Theuni2E.g. getting a reasonable response time on bugs.17:04
Theuni2and triaging them17:04
* Theuni2 listens to the crickets17:05
runyagawho gets notifications?17:05
agroszerI guess right now it's sort of DIY17:05
Theuni2runyaga: hmm. whoever is set as a member of the launchpad teams17:06
* Theuni2 checks17:06
agroszerany chance to organize bug-days?17:06
trollfotwell, notifying the right persons mean a dynamic of each one registering to one or several package he/she cares about.17:06
mgedminthat's assuming there are packages17:07
Theuni2agroszer: we had bug days at some point. i'm not sure why we stopped that.17:07
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mgedmine.g. zope.component doesn't have one17:07
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Theuni2trollfot: that's definitely an option for individuals to manage this.17:07
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Theuni2i guess we as a community also need something to stay on track.17:07
agroszerTheuni2, I guess the person to kick ass was missing17:08
runyagaagroszer, i think your right17:08
runyagathe cracker of whips17:08
Theuni2i guess we could have reminders send out to the zope-tests list if bugs stay untriaged / untouched for too long17:08
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* Theuni2 opens a whip shop17:08
runyagaTheuni2, i think until there is a habit (cracking whip, bug days, etc) automation will help little until routine established17:08
* Charlie_X thinks Theuni2's suggestion to send reminders to the mailing list good.17:09
runyagaso to the zope-dev mailing list?17:09
Charlie_XYes - I'm sure I'm not the only one who might be able to fix the odd bug but who isn't registered for any packages anywhere.17:10
trollfotmaybe, utopically, we could list the people interested to actively take part in the bug resolution, list them by field of interested (zca, auth, templating - if not by package) and they could try and organize a kind of dispatch. That's an awful job, but, I don't see how to motivate people to correct bugs, if they're not aware they exist and if they are unsure on how to do things17:10
mgedminbug days +117:10
Theuni2yeah17:10
Theuni2sounds like a combination of measuring how we're doing + bug days17:11
Theuni2the thing i see about bug days would be a) whip cracking b) timezones17:11
runyagai think how plone handles them is 9AM EST17:11
betabugin the tiny zwiki world, time zones worked *for* the bug day17:11
Theuni2I'd be happy to do more whip-cracking like I do now with the weekly meeting and moderation, but a whole day that spans all timezones will be hard ;)17:11
Theuni2betabug: explain?17:11
betabugwhen some of us stopped, others took over, it was a nice experience17:12
Theuni2runyaga: so that would be 3pm CET and then keep going for ~6 hours or so? how long are bug days then?17:12
betabugyou'd hand off a half-slain bug to someone else :-)17:12
Theuni2haha nice :)17:12
runyagaTheuni2, until ppl stop17:12
agroszerTheuni2, I think cracking the whip for a start is good, and then once people start to work they ought to finish17:12
Charlie_XDocumented process as well for occasional fixers. One thing that definitely reduces my work is being unsure how to start and fear of fcuking things up.17:12
betabug+1 on that17:13
mgedminoh yes the fear17:13
mgedminbuildbots ought to help somewhat17:13
betabugnot only the fear, but also the pain to get a setup started17:13
srichterwell, that's the reason that a fully working test suite is important17:13
Theuni2ok, so for that the whip cracker (lets rename him to facilitator/guide/...) would also be helpful17:13
srichterif all tests in the KGS pass, you did probably well :-)17:13
Theuni2to help with general process issues and uncertainty17:14
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Theuni2so e.g. when starting a bug day it should be clear in the IRC channel who the guide for newbies is17:14
Theuni2and the guide could take notes and put them in the general developer documentation to improve that in parallel17:14
mgedminsomething like "BUG DAY - ask Theuni2" in front of the topic?17:14
Theuni2yeah17:14
Theuni2.oO(damn)17:15
mgedmin:)17:15
Theuni2so, that sounds like quite a few people would like to do bug days again17:15
Theuni2i'd be happy to organize17:15
Charlie_XRe. fear - would mentoring with screensharing make sense to anyone else?17:15
Theuni2can those really interested raise their hand again17:15
agroszerdefinitely, +1 on bug days17:15
Theuni2Charlie_X: if i'd mentor, i'd be happy to do that17:15
srichter+117:15
Theuni2(interested being: also very likely to help out)17:16
trollfotyeah, bug day is cool17:16
Charlie_X+117:16
mgedmin+117:16
Theuni2ok, so i'll send a doodle out for the first three weeks in april17:16
Theuni2so we can figure out what the best day would be17:16
Theuni2i'll be egoistic again and put only dates in that i can definitely be there. anybody got a problem with that?17:17
* sm has another meeting, but waves to all17:17
Theuni2sm: thanks for joining17:17
Charlie_XTheuni2: if you are going to do the work, do what works best for you.17:17
Theuni2:)17:18
Theuni2Ok. So much for working on bugs.17:18
Charlie_XWould it be okay to have a minimum time commitment of, says, 2 hours?17:18
Theuni2I'd leave that open for now.17:18
Charlie_Xokay17:18
Charlie_Xnext...17:18
Theuni2Lets see how it works out without making more specific rules right now.17:18
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Theuni2I guess keeping an eye on the situation would be solved by sending mails to the test aggregator and writing a test that polls launchpad for open/untriaged bugs17:19
Theuni2Launchpad just made the read-only API easier to use. Do we have maybe any volunteers for writing that kind of script? I'd be happy to help with the integration into the zope-tests list.17:19
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* Charlie_X raises a tentative - just check which way the fingers are facing17:21
* Charlie_X hand that is17:21
Theuni2Charlie_X: fine. i'll help you. if you want to work on it, just mail me or call me.17:21
Theuni2so, next.17:21
Charlie_XWill do. Sounds about my level.17:21
Theuni2:)17:21
Theuni2regebro: hey!17:22
Theuni2Lennart's agenda item is up now.17:22
Theuni2He asked that we start thinking about how to deal with proposed API changes and Python 317:22
Theuni2regebro: if you're there, it would be cool if you could speak up on that17:22
srichterTheuni2: yeah, that's a good one17:22
Theuni2Otherwise we'll just have to make something up what he means with that ;)17:23
Charlie_XWould that be targetting 3.2 & 2.7?17:23
TresEquishmm17:23
srichterI think I am fine with API changes as long as the KGS does not break, iow when an API change happens the person must be responsible for fixing all packages in the KGS that are affected17:23
srichterwhen we had a big trunk that was a given17:23
agroszerwho knows to which version unladen will merge? I guess 3.something?17:23
TresEquisagroszer: 3.2 is possible17:24
srichteragroszer: 3 with patches available for 2.717:24
Charlie_XIs anyone actively working with 3.x?17:24
TresEquiscurrent branch made against 2.617:24
TresEquisCharlie_X: not except to try converting packages17:24
srichterCharlie_X: the main problem is lack of packaing system (or was until now) and lack of 3rd party libraries being ported17:24
srichterof course, we are part of the problem for the latter17:25
TresEquisI would like the "BSTK" to get there soonest17:25
srichterBSTK?17:25
Charlie_XNot swallows, then chickens and eggs17:25
TresEquisbecause it blocks everybody else working on it17:25
TresEquis"Bicycle Seat Toolkit"17:25
TresEquiszope.{interface,component,schema,configuration,testing}17:25
srichteryeah, I would like to see core packages move to Py3 too17:26
agroszeryah, there is some C code there17:26
Charlie_XSounds like something for a sprint / criterion17:26
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TresEquisonce we can run tests under Py3, then we can move forward17:26
* mgedmin once again wonders about splitting off zope.testing.testrunner into zope.testrunner17:26
TresEquismgedmin: would that help speed up porting to Py3?17:26
mgedminI dunno :/17:27
Theuni2heh17:27
TresEquiswas there a proposal out there somewhere?17:27
agroszerdumb question: how do want to support that many python versions at once?17:28
agroszer2.4-3.217:28
TresEquisagroszer: the current strategy is to target 2.617:28
Charlie_X2.4 and 2.5 are currently only "may work"17:28
TresEquisand let 2to3 conversions make the code installable under 3.117:28
TresEquis3.2 isn't released, and won't be for months17:29
srichterI agree; we should target >=2.6 and >= 3.1 for now17:29
Charlie_X+117:29
srichteranything that's unreleased is not an issue17:29
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srichterhow good is the 2to3 tool?17:30
agroszerrephrasing: I guess that will not work with the same codebase17:30
TresEquissrichter: pretty good, and extendable17:30
agroszerwith the respect of C code?17:30
TresEquisdoctests are the major pain point right now17:30
TresEquisagroszer: Martin van Loewis did a lot of work to port compatible C changes17:31
srichterTresEquis: right, I would suggest having two versions for the time being17:31
TresEquistoo hard17:31
Charlie_Xsrichter: pretty good by all accounts. Martin von Löwis gave a good oveview WRT to Zope at DZUG in München last year.17:31
srichterREADME.txt and README.3.txt17:31
TresEquisah, of the tests?17:31
TresEquisif we removed "bad" examples from the doctests (e.g., stuff which depends on exception formatting)17:31
TresEquislife would get better17:32
Theuni2ok, the general time is up.17:32
Theuni2except from the fact that I screwed up timing17:32
TresEquisheh17:32
Theuni2apparently we're an hour early17:32
srichterTresEquis: yeah, but exception handling is one of the nicer aspects17:32
agroszerTheuni2, DST?17:32
Theuni2TresEquis correctly pointed out that it's currently 2:30 UTC17:32
Theuni2agroszer: yeah :/17:32
TresEquissrichter: its the stuff that breaks across 2.x versions too17:32
mgedmintime machine!17:33
srichterTresEquis: ok, those yes, but exceptions are not on that list17:33
TresEquisI mean't formatting them17:33
TresEquiswe should let Theuni2 carry on with his time-based agenda17:33
Theuni2TresEquis: thanks17:33
Theuni2Last topic: reflect on the weekly meetings17:34
TresEquisNow we go meta ;)17:34
Theuni2I'll shut up for that, I'd like to hear from that :)17:34
Theuni2s/that/you/17:34
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Theuni2TresEquis: yeah, hopefully just for a short while. and without burning anyone alive.17:34
TresEquisI would consider these meetings very successful, and would like to see them continue17:34
Charlie_XEven though this is my first I think they are good idea.17:34
regebroTheuni2: No I'm not here.17:34
regebroOr well, I am now. :)17:35
Theuni2regebro: too bad.17:35
TresEquisMaybe we can "hand off the baton" for the coordinator's job from time to time17:35
agroszerTheuni2, there's a nice world clock lab for G-calendar if you use that17:35
TresEquisif it is too burdensome17:35
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regebroI was hoping with the DST that it would be 17.00 today. :) Ah well.17:36
TresEquisregebro: we jumped the gun17:36
Theuni2TresEquis: that would definitely be good. i'll try to recruit someone myself just to make sure i'm not a bottleneck. :)17:36
Theuni2regebro: it is. i screwed it up.17:36
Charlie_XA short agenda and time discipline concentrate the mind.17:36
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* mgedmin wonders about the status of buildbot notifications17:37
* agroszer wonders about win64 buildbots ;-)17:37
srichterI also would like the meetings to copntinue17:37
Theuni2mgedmin: yeah, one of the things i wonder about is how to keep track of the open issues in the long run. currently i manage them in text files and review them every week.17:37
TresEquismgedmin: the meta issue might be that follow up on stuff already discussed is hard17:37
regebroShit, the weather just turned from drizle to a hailstorm!  Haha! God missed me again with his crappy weather! He is too slow!17:37
Charlie_XImportant in today's web2.0tastic world of instant gratification and eternal deferral17:37
Theuni2Charlie_X: :)17:38
mgedminooh, instant gratification! me want!17:38
TresEquisTheuni2: maybe there's a webapp for that ;)17:38
Theuni2actually there is17:38
regebroTheuni2: Well, we can take up Python 3 stuff again next time, quickly maybe?17:38
Theuni2i found only one, though17:38
Theuni2regebro: we can17:38
regebrocool17:38
TresEquis+1, since I mangled channeling regebro17:38
Theuni2and i mangled him by picking the wrong time ;)17:39
Theuni2Another meta question: how useful do you consider the logs?17:39
agroszerTheuni2, one more topic: any sprints in sight?17:39
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Theuni2agroszer: EuroPython, and DZUG/Symposium17:39
Theuni2so that's july and september17:40
* Charlie_X would like info both to help planning time17:40
Theuni2I don't know of any ones until then17:40
TresEquistheres PSE in May17:40
TresEquisat Penn State17:40
Charlie_XRe. next time: Martin's presentation in German http://www.zope.de/redaktion/dzug/tagung/2009/die-vortraege/portierung_zodb_python_3-1.pdf/view17:40
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regebroTresEquis: You did OK. :) but I has some additional questions.17:40
Theuni2TresEquis: more specific?17:40
TresEquisIf we were talking about sprints17:41
TresEquisPlone Symposium East17:41
Theuni2ah17:41
TresEquiswill have sprinting17:41
TresEquisI'm going to be working on cleaning up the Zope2 WSGI publisher story17:41
Theuni2that's end of may17:41
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TresEquisright17:41
Theuni2hmm17:41
TresEquis24-3017:41
TresEquisor so17:41
Theuni2that's relatively relaxed on my part currently17:42
Theuni2i might consider joining17:42
TresEquisthe sprints are "after" the conference17:42
Theuni2saw that17:42
Theuni2back to the main topic17:42
Theuni2I still have the standing question how useful people consider the logs of the weekly meetings.17:42
Theuni2Anything I should change? Useless? Useful?17:43
hannoschI found them useful. for the meetings I didn't manage to attend to17:43
Charlie_XI think the logs are a good basis. Ongoing's should probably go into something like launchpad17:43
mgedminI think people who do not participate in meetings find them more useful than people who do, so you should maybe ask them ;)17:43
Theuni2Charlie_X: i thought about putting the ongoings into bugs or blueprints or such17:43
Theuni2mgedmin: good point :)17:43
srichterTheuni2: logs are good, though I would like more names so I know said what17:43
Theuni2srichter: ic17:44
TresEquisif we put the raw transcript there, that helps17:44
srichteryes17:44
Theuni2we kinda do ;)17:44
Theuni2i put the general log there, maybe i should try harder finding a specific URL17:44
agroszeris there a log like for #zope3-dev?17:45
agroszerthen you can just paste a URL17:45
Theuni2my client logs stuff, so I could copy/paste that into the manually crafted log17:45
TresEquisagroszer: you mean like a bot-generated one?17:45
agroszerliek this one:17:46
agroszerhttp://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs/%23zope3-dev.2010-03-30.log.html#t2010-03-30T04:28:3617:46
agroszerthen you got the time too17:46
Theuni2http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs-zope17:46
Theuni2that's the one i link to in the protocol17:46
Theuni2http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs-zope/%23zope.2010-03-30.log.html#t2010-03-30T17:00:5217:47
Theuni2that sounds good17:47
Theuni2I'll do that17:47
Theuni2alright folks17:47
Theuni2so to summarize: we'll keep going17:47
srichterTheuni2: cool :-)17:47
Charlie_Xics file for meetings?17:47
Theuni2I'll try to find another person so we don't completely rely on me.17:47
Theuni2Charlie_X: I posted a Google Calendar at some point17:48
TresEquisreminder should include a .ics link, too17:48
Theuni2http://www.google.com/calendar/ical/5f83vmc2vka8vbmvr4ck79mje8@group.calendar.google.com/public/basic.ics17:48
mgedminsomeone who has ops ought to put the IRC log url in the topic17:48
Theuni2TresEquis: that's the point where my toolchain beats me ;)17:48
mgedminI believe freenode has a policy that if there's logging going on, people must be notified about it17:49
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Theuni2mgedmin: freenode also has the policy of loosing operator access to channels and not handing it back for 4 years ;)17:49
mgedminare you telling me that zope 2.12.2 was released _4 years ago_?17:50
mgedminclearly somebody can change the topic17:50
Theuni2mgedmin: no, i was just pointing out some general stupidity with freenode that i've been dealing with in other channels ;)17:50
agroszergreat that link works with G-calendar add calendar17:50
Theuni2So anyway: everyone: thanks for coming. official part is over, get your beer now. :)17:50
* mgedmin hates xchat-gnome17:51
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agroszerthanks Theuni217:52
Theuni2you're very welcome17:52
Theuni2mgedmin: i got up to speed with pidgin. empathy is a bitch.17:52
hannoschgah, official part should have started in 7 minutes ;)17:53
Theuni2hannosch: i know. i'm sorry.17:55
hannoschI only joined after you sent the screw-up mail :)17:55
Charlie_Xwam - working fine from Düsseldorf. But then I don't use von der Leyen's DNS...17:56
Charlie_Xoops, wrong channel17:56
Theuni2Charlie_X: uhm .... *G17:57
Charlie_XTheuni2: the ICS hasn't updated for DST17:57
Theuni2uhm ...\17:58
Theuni2i can't choose UTC in Google Calendar anyway17:59
Theuni2:/17:59
bigkevmcdGMT?17:59
Theuni2yeah17:59
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Charlie_XUTC is just GMT by another name. I think it was to appease the French.18:02
Theuni2nope18:02
Theuni2there's some microsecond and definition shit going on18:02
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mgedmintime is hard18:03
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Theuni2no, time is easy.18:04
Theuni2politics about time are hard18:04
mgedmindoes your software handle leap seconds correctly?18:05
Theuni2see18:05
Theuni2that's politics :)18:05
mgedminyou have a very interesting definition of politics18:06
Charlie_XDST is extremely weird. Especially as it is actually the norm for most places that have it. Aren't there a whole heap of countries who've changed it this year?18:06
mgedminDST is politics, leap seconds is physics and astronomy18:06
Charlie_Xmgedmin: politics just means "to do with people"18:06
Theuni2mgedmin: hmm. isn't leap seconds just a calendaring issue?18:07
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Theuni2sounds like it18:09
mgedminit's something about Earths rotation period around the Sun not being an integer multiple of the rotation period about its own axis18:09
Theuni2which is only an issue if you want to base the calendar on it18:09
mgedminno, not days, seconds, that's it18:09
Theuni2you could base the calendar on TAI which wouldn't require that18:10
mgedminastronomical year does not divide into an integer number of seconds or something like that18:10
Theuni2actually astronomical year isnt steady18:10
Theuni2keeps going faster and slower all the time18:10
mgedminalso fun ;)18:10
Theuni2and UTC is based on UT1 which is astronomical time and gets corrected whenever it would deviate more than 0,9 SI-s from UT118:11
* mgedmin ponders a 3.4.1 KGS release18:11
Theuni2whereas TAI would be fun: august might be hot or cold depending how much astronomy deviates from cesium18:11
mgedmindepending on setuptools 0.6c9 is just nasty18:11
Theuni2mgedmin: urks, yeah. more worrysome than leap (or double leap!) seconds18:11
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mgedminzope.release's README.txt tells me to run bin/upload, which asks for arguments I don't know anything about...18:13
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wiggyisn't there supposed to be a meeting now?18:42
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wiggyor was that 40 minutes ago?18:42
Theuni2wiggy: dst mixup, we did it an hour ago18:43
wiggynice18:43
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*** rTheJeste is now known as TheJester19:54
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o TheJester19:54
*** TheJester changes topic to "http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs-zope/%23zope.2010-03-30.log.html#t2010-03-30T17:00:52"19:54
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*** TheJester changes topic to "Zope Meeting Transcript: http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs-zope/%23zope.2010-03-30.log.html#t2010-03-30T17:00:52 - http://zope2.zope.org launched - Zope 2.12.2 released - http://zope.org http://wiki.zope.org/zope2 http://wiki.zope.org/zope3 please paste your error traceback at http://paste.lisp.org/new/zope"19:55
TheJesterdamn it19:56
*** TheJester changes topic to "Zope Meeting Transcript: http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs-zope/%23zope.2010-03-30.log.html#t2010-03-30T17:00:52 - http://zope2.zope.org launched - Zope 2.12.2 released - http://zope.org http://wiki.zope.org/zope2 http://wiki.zope.org/zope3 please paste your error traceback at http://paste.lisp.org/new/zope please mention zope version when asking questions - public Google Wave http://bit.l"19:56
TheJesterwe're out of topic space d8)19:56
*** TheJester changes topic to "Zope Meeting Transcript: http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs-zope/%23zope.2010-03-30.log.html#t2010-03-30T17:00:52 - http://zope2.zope.org launched - Zope 2.12.2 released - http://zope.org http://wiki.zope.org/zope2 http://wiki.zope.org/zope3 please paste your error traceback at http://paste.lisp.org/new/zope please mention zope version when asking questions - public Wave http://bit.ly/7Po4K"19:56
*** TheJester changes topic to "Zope Meeting Transcript: http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs-zope/%23zope.2010-03-30.log.html#t2010-03-30T17:00:52 - http://zope2.zope.org launched - Zope 2.12.2 released - http://zope.org http://wiki.zope.org/zope2 http://wiki.zope.org/zope3 please paste your error traceback at http://paste.lisp.org/new/zope please mention zope version when asking questions - public Wave http://bit.ly/7Po4KD"19:57
TheJestergood enough19:57
moo---lisp.org? :P19:59
TheJesterI didn't set it up d8)20:00
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TheJesterThe stupid bot announces pastes here too20:00
lisppaste6TheJester pasted "Moo Mooo" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/9708120:02
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moo---i c20:02
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