IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-03-09

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lisppaste6sig11 pasted "Trouble importing XML" at
sig11I wonder if someone could give me a hand with this error...02:03
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sig11I'm running Zope 2.10 from Lenny packages02:03
sig11I get that BT when I try to import the xml files from the old server02:04
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mcdoncsig11: if you still have access to a running old server i'd export as zexp rather than xml... it looks like the xml import machinery can't handle high order characters02:07
sig11Unfortunately we don't.  :(02:11
sig11Would version matching with the old server help or is it more likely to work with the current version of Zope?02:12
mcdoncunknown, really02:12
sig11Alrighty.  I guess I'll try downgrading first.  :)02:13
mcdoncok, that sounds like a plan ;-)02:13
sig11Thanks.  I found a lot of info on that crazy error but nothing really helpful unfortunately.  ;(02:13
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bhagatImportError: No module named Interface11:37
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bigkevmcdbhagat: what's the "Interface" module you're referencing?11:53
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moo---bhagat: you are doing it wrong11:55
moo---did you manage to fix your bug11:55
bhagatnope  I followed
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bhagatbigkevmcd,  learning diskbased product from this link ^11:56
bhagatit seems calling from the Zope's  Interface module   Zope-2.10.9-final-py2.4/lib/python]# Interface    ?11:58
bhagatmoo---, ^^^11:58
moo---I do not understand the question11:59
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bigkevmcdoh well...12:00
bigkevmcdbut that tutorial seems to be lacking12:00
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bhagatmoo---, sorry  got disconnected12:03
moo---bhagat: the example looks wrong12:03
moo---from zope.interface import Interfcae12:03
moo---from zope.interface import Interface12:03
moo---that's correct12:03
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asabilhi all15:15
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ignasemm, what is the equivalent of MessageIDFactory in Zope2.11 ?15:34
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ignashannosch, thanks, was not there in Zope2.815:36
ignasbigkevmcd, if that was for me - i'd rather have docs for "what's old in Zope2.8 Zope2.11 and Zope2 overall"15:38
hannoschignas: yep. MessageID's got replaced by Messages at some point. they have the same API, but Messages are immutable, which makes them secure to use as "stones" in the no need to proxy them via zope.proxy anymore15:38
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ignashmm, i used to call them 'rocks' not 'stones' ;)15:39
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hannoschright. rocks :)15:39
hannoschthe clear opposite of spacesuits :)15:39
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moo---in space, no one hears your messageid16:00
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ignasZope2.11 resourceDirectory implementation killed 2 hours of my time yesterday :/16:00
ignaswill kill 1 more hour composing bug report I guess16:01
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* Theuni1 waves17:00
Theuni1So, here's today's agenda:
Theuni1Anybody except me around for the weekly meeting or is everyone lurking? :)17:01
trollfotTheuni1: I was here to watch the debate :)17:02
faassenI'm here.17:02
faassentrollfot: good to see you. :)17:02
trollfothi faassen :)17:02
* LeoRochael here17:02
Theuni1So lets start then17:02
Theuni1First: test runners/nightly builds17:03
Theuni1We had some activity over the last week.17:03
faassenTheuni1: one thing that I didn't see is Jan-Jaap's involvement in those discussions.17:03
Theuni1he's on holidays right now17:03
faassenTheuni1: he's been maintaining quite a bit of buildbot infrastructure.17:03
Theuni1according to JW17:03
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faassenah, okay, just wanted to make sure he was somehow involved.17:03
Theuni1i put his name on the buildbot page in the documentation, so now he's involved *g17:04
Theuni1Last week we started looking for a volunteer WRT coordinating the automated build setups and mgedmin said he'd ponder that,  but he isn't around. So i'll keep that issue open.17:04
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Theuni1The other thing that came up was that we need to organize which combinations of projects/platforms/branches actually need coverage.17:05
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faassenTheuni1: he blogged.. mgedmin17:05
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faassenTheuni1: let me look up what he said.17:06
faassen"There is a need for somebody to coordinate all     this activity: make sure we have up-to-date test results for all kinds of     projects, aggregate them in one place, chase up build slaves for exotic     OSes (i.e. Windows)...  I don't think I'm well suited for this kind of     organisational activity.   "17:06
Theuni1ah interesting17:06
faassenTheuni1: so looks like you'll have to look for another volunteer there.17:07
Theuni1right, good to know.17:07
faassenTheuni1: getting people to coordinate other people is pretty hard. :)17:07
J1mme neither :)17:07
faassenbut persistence helps.17:07
Theuni1yeah :)17:07
Theuni1So anyway, any suggestions for creating and maintaining an overview of what combinations of projects/platforms/etc... should have nightly builds?17:08
Theuni1I'm mostly worried about the maintenance part17:08
faassenI think the best way to get that maintained is when it's very clear for people how to use it.17:08
faassenI find buildbot's status pages rather intimidating, so I don't really use them.17:08
faassenso either someone documents the heck out of what I should look at.17:08
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faassenor someone volunteers to look at it for me and reports.17:09
faassenonce people start to rely on the information, they'll complain faster when it's down.17:09
Theuni1well, i think the main issue would be that we notice if we lack something, so, for example "we're missing a python 2.5 build for zope.interface on windows 64 bit"17:09
faassenah, well, isn't that builds?17:09
faassenbut yeah.17:09
faassenthat's an issue we've had with Grok, still have.17:09
Theuni1yeah, except i'm imagining a better overview17:09
faassenbut buildbots aren't needed to find that out.17:09
Theuni1I think something we should leverage more is the test aggregation mail17:09
faassenyou could probably script pypi. baiju had a script.17:09
Theuni1that's not what i meant - bad example probably.17:10
faassenI do like 32 bit and 64 bit windows eggs available.17:10
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faassenbut I thought that was the next topic. :)17:10
faassenso I was waiting.17:10
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Theuni1i meant "we're missing a nightly test run for package X with python Y on platform Z"17:10
Theuni1and that would somehow have to be derived from a set of rules IMHO17:10
faassenwhat about "the test run is failing and nobody notices it?"17:10
faassenI think we've had that issue just as much.17:10
Theuni1well, we do have a general answer for that17:11
faassenwe've had tests for 2.4 but nobody notices when we break it.17:11
Theuni1the builds need to start working towards sending mail to the zope-tests list17:11
faassenah, okay.17:11
Theuni1once that happens we get the daily aggregate on the dev list that alerts us17:11
Theuni1and its really simple to do that17:11
faassenokay, that should help.17:11
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Theuni1And I think we can leverage that list even further by sending all kinds of "checks" there.17:12
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Theuni1anything that developers should act upon17:12
Theuni1I think i'll poke the current buildbot maintainers explicitly to change their configuration.17:12
Theuni1so, the next topic is access to build machines17:13
Theuni1oh wait17:13
Theuni1we didn't actually figure out how we get towards a "definite" list of which regular tests we *should* be running17:13
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faassenfor what?17:14
faassenZTK? zopeapp? groktoolkit? bbtk?17:14
LeoRochaeland which combination of trunks and releases...17:14
Theuni1FWIW anything in svn.zope.org17:14
faassenI'd focus on running tests for those "toolkits" we have.17:15
faassenand trunks.17:15
faassenof those packages in toolkits.17:15
faassenthe toolkits actually have that info now.17:15
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faassento support mr.developer.17:15
faassenthe info what the trunk is, I mean.17:15
Theuni1i think the general problem is that "anything in the repository" in "all combinations of platforms and pythons" is way to extensive17:15
Theuni1so, the various toolkits would be a start17:16
trollfotthe toolkits will already be expensive, and that's a must-have17:16
Theuni1ok, anyway, let's ponder that a bit more later.17:17
Theuni1not that many buildbot-people around right now anyway :)17:17
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Theuni1The build machines for windows packages reminds me two things: alan keeps plugging that he can provide windows machines and Tres' reviewed hudson which seems to be a good tool for producing builds that get uploaded somewhere after building.17:18
Theuni1So I wonder whether we should have windows machines that developers can log in to or whether they can just trigger a build through the repository.17:18
faassen(Jan-Jaap's buildbot covers quite a few combinations of toolkits I think)17:19
Theuni1faassen: yes it does.17:19
faassenit'd be great if we could get 32 and 64 bit builds uploaded to pypi automatically. :)17:19
faasseni.e. I release a package that needs a build, and the thingy job comes in and drops in a windows build.17:19
faassenthat wouldn't allow me to run trunk tests on windows.17:20
hannoschI only do the 32+64 eggs for Python 2.6 when asked or when required by Zope 2.12 / 2.1317:20
faassenbut that'd help a lot of logistical issues.17:20
Theuni1it could watch the pypi, take that sdist and compile and put the build somewhere17:20
faassenhannosch: yeah, I've been begging grokkers to give you a list so we can ask you, but nobody has done so yet. :)17:20
hannoschfaassen: heh :) if I get a list I get you eggs17:20
faassenTheuni1: yeah, that'd be the nicest.17:20
Theuni1faassen: one thing we need before that would be that the tests are actually run on those platforms too. otherwise we need to release just to find out about build problems on windows ;)17:20
faassenhannosch: I know. but nobody made the real list yet. :)17:21
trollfotfaassen: I have no idea how to compile this list or I'd have done it17:21
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Theuni1wanna move on to the ztk release questions or keep on the build topic?17:21
hannoschif you get me buildout location or versions.cfg list, I can figure it out myself17:21
LeoRochaela windows egg laying buildbot could listen for the presence of 'tags' in the repository17:22
Theuni1LeoRochael: that's an option, too.17:22
faassentrollfot: take the groktk (and the ztk and zopeapp) and find out which need binary compiles at all. (i think there's a list of those someone made on grok-dev). then go through all the versions listed on pypi of those, and see whether there's a 32 and 64 bit egg.17:22
LeoRochaelthis way we don't have to actually release to pypi to see if there are windows breakages17:23
Theuni1about the list of builds: two issues I have with that is that I'd like to run a script on which produces a list of builds we need, then walks up to the buildbots we have and alarm us automatically if we're missing any builds.17:23
Theuni1otherwise some poor person will have to manually check *lots* of combinations which keep changing here and there.17:23
faassenhannosch: um:*checkout*/zopetoolkit/trunk/zopeapp.cfg?rev=10893817:24
faassenhannosch: and*checkout*/zopetoolkit/trunk/ztk.cfg?rev=10893817:24
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hannoschfaassen: ok. I'll take a look tomorrow17:24
LeoRochaelso I guess our first issue is figuring out mechanically which eggs we need build17:24
faassenhannosch: thanks!17:24
faassentrollfot: yay, hanno is going to look into it.17:24
Theuni1LeoRochael: i think we opened two cans of worms by now17:25
trollfothannosch: you are my hero17:25
Theuni1a) which eggs need automatic windows builds17:25
Theuni1b) what test runs do we need17:25
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faassenI think a bit more than that.17:25
faassenah, wait, no.17:25
faassenanyway, if we can solve a) we'd be happy already, if the automatic windows builds happen.17:25
faassenif it turns out we have a lot of windows breakages then we need more ways to test on windows.17:26
faassenwhich involves b)17:26
Theuni1right. so a) would be the thing that monitors specific pypi packages for releases and creates windows builds automatically, right?17:26
Theuni1(the combination thing of different windows versions and python versions comes into play again)17:27
Theuni1Ok. We're almost at the 30 minutes limit.17:27
LeoRochaelhow about this for an algorithm: for each toolkit, for each toolkit package, if there is a new tag and its declares the need to build extensions, build the package and run all tests of that toolkit17:28
faassenanyway, I'm happy you guys are looking into this. it's one of the topics we have to deal with during a grok release.17:28
LeoRochaelthis way we can get windows failures before a release, but after building the egg17:28
faassenit's almost more important than a ZTK release, as we can easily tag that.17:28
Theuni1Small rewrap: we're still looking for a volunteer to coordinate the efforts of nightly builds/tests -- automatic windows builds that create binary distributions would be *very* welcome -- the list of project/platform/python/... well, we need to flesh that out more.17:29
Theuni1The official meeting time is over now. ;)17:30
Theuni1LeoRochael: I think I'd keep those a bit more distinct.17:30
hannoschI can only offer manual windows egg builds for one specific combination. setting up a cross-compilation setup for 32/64 bit was too complicated and nothing you can reproduce easily17:30
Theuni1At least I'd prefer having the pypi-based thing that monitors our projects get released on pypi and if needed builds the egg -- independent of whether it belongs to a toolkit or not. we do have non-toolkit-packages ;)17:31
faassenTheuni1: yeah, Zope 2 packages which have binary stuff.17:31
baijumFYI, here is the current status of Windows binaries:
faassenTheuni1: beyond the toolkit (and zopeapp) and Zope 2 I think we don't have more.17:31
faassenbaijum: oh, cool.17:32
Theuni1zodb is there ;)17:32
faassenTheuni1: true.17:32
hannoschsure. I built the zodb 64bit version17:32
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Theuni1And I'm a Unix fan, so I like independent small things that work together.17:32
sidnei_i have a cross-compilation setup for 32/64 and no issues hannosch17:32
hannoschsidnei_: but you have a paid for Visual Studio I guess?17:33
sidnei_i would like to propose using windows machines on amazon ec2 though, those could be easily spawned by hudson17:33
sidnei_hannosch, nope. express edition and the platform sdk17:33
hannoschI used the free tools from M$ and that was somewhat painful17:33
baijumZODB binary for Python 2.5 in 64 bit is not available17:33
faassenI am not on the foundation board.17:33
faassenbut I think getting windows servers (on ec2 or whatever) and visual study thingy..17:33
faassenpaying for that.. we could ask the board. :)17:34
faassenvisual studio, I mean.17:34
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sidnei_we could get a visual studio license for free from ms17:34
J1m+1 to leveraging ec2 to gain platform access.17:34
baijum+1 for ZF funded machine17:34
sidnei_the python-dev developers were given licenses17:34
LeoRochaelwe only need VS express right?17:34
sidnei_i think steve holden was looking into that17:34
faassenso that should be on the ZF todo list. :)17:34
LeoRochaeland can't we compile with MinGW?17:34
sidnei_vs express is enough for python 2.6 yes17:34
faassenTheuni1: do you hear ZF board? :)17:34
sidnei_i would not recommend mingw17:35
faassenTheuni1: (now you say: ah, we'll delegate a volunteer)17:35
hannoschLeoRochael: MingW doesn't work for 64bit17:35
faassenokay, interesting.17:35
Theuni1did I hear someone volunteer? :)17:35
* Theuni1 watches who does *not* step back17:35
* hannosch steps back just in case17:35
* LeoRochael pushes sidnei forward17:35
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sidnei_i can setup an AMI for py26/64/3217:36
sidnei_i think amazon added 'shared accounts' recently, so everyone using that account gets billed centrally17:37
faassenwhat's an AMI?17:37
sidnei_amazon machine image17:37
faassenah, cool.17:37
faassensidnei_: what about py25 and py24?17:37
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sidnei_faassen, those need visual studio 2003, would need a license17:37
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Theuni1sidnei_: can you prepare a proposal to the ZF board for that which lays down the expected cost?17:37
faassenso ZF board looks into getting a license for VS2003.17:37
Theuni1doesn't have to be fancy17:37
hannoschI built those on WinXP with MingW, that worked reasonably well17:37
faassenand ZF would need to fund EC2 machine.17:38
faassenhannosch: but no 64 bit, right?17:38
sidnei_again, i think we can get a license for free from microsoft, since we would not be doing commercial work17:38
hannoschfaassen: right17:38
faassensidnei_: right, so we need someone to contact MS.17:38
hannoschsidnei_: indeed17:38
sidnei_just need to mail their open source division, i can dig up the details17:38
faassenso, ZF board, please contact MS. maybe through Steve Holden.17:38
* Theuni1 watches faassen with a raised eyebrow17:38
faassenTheuni1: well, it's clear it comes back to you, right?17:39
hannoschfaassen: enjoying the freedom already ;)17:39
Theuni1I'm just the messenger. I don't think just pushing random little things onto the ZF board todo list will help.17:39
faassenI was about to volunteer I can mail Steve Holden for the ZF, but I wasn't going to say it.17:39
faassenTheuni1: this isn't random. we need funding for EC2, so that's a board topic.17:39
faassenTheuni1: we also need to officially ask the open source folks for a license. they'll give it to the ZF.17:40
hannoschsidnei_: how often do you need to update the ami? I think Python 2.6.5 just updated the OpenSSL version or so. how would that work? and updating to 2.6.5 in the first place?17:40
Theuni1faassen: What I heard was: we need funding for an AMI. oh ... and *maybe* some money for *this* ... or wait ... maybe no funding for this but contact that guy. ;)17:41
sidnei_hannosch, if i recall, you fire up the existing ami, update it and 'rebundle', creating a new ami.17:41
Theuni1I don't think that will work for getting the board to make a decision.17:41
faassenTheuni1: come on, you can think right?17:41
faassenTheuni1:  you're on the board. you know the topic. make a proposal to the board that you think will help them make a decision.17:42
Theuni1well, thanks.17:43
faassenwell, what else would you want me to do?17:43
Theuni1At least not to *imply* that I structure the proposal you want from me.17:43
faassenokay, bye.17:43
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* trollfot sighs17:44
* Theuni1 stares a bit17:45
hannoschTheuni1: one suggestion: only put two things up on the discussion list for next time :)17:45
Theuni1hannosch: yeah :)17:45
Theuni1sidnei_: i think getting shared infrastructure that can belong to the foundation is a good idea. right now the amount of open questions that start popping up feels like there's some work needed to put that in a shape that the ZF can decide upon.17:46
Theuni1I don't have enough knowledge about the implications of how the pricing is set, what is needed WRT running different versions of windows, 32/64-bit, python versions, compilers, etc.17:46
hannoschwell, it would help if we dropped support for some old Python versions for the ZTK ;)17:47
sidnei_Theuni1, ok. i can make no promise about timeline. i can start by writing up all that i know about the subject, and would be nice to get a second volunteer to help looking into issues.17:47
Theuni1I also don't know about the licensing issues with Windows on EC2 etc ... do you think you can write up an overview of what is needed?17:47
hannoschZope 2.12+ only supports Python 2.6 ... makes it a lot easier :)17:47
Theuni1sidnei_: i'd be happy to *help*, but I won't be able to lead that effort.17:47
Theuni1Something else that occured to me that if we ask the ZF for money, we better put something in place to ensure the ZF doesn't burn the money.17:48
Theuni1Also, IMHO until getting those EC2 machines paid for, there's other tasks in the build structuring that should happen first.17:48
Theuni1I don't think we have time pressure, do you?17:49
sidnei_i dont. ;)17:49
Theuni1I can gently let the board know that the idea has come up but we'll prepare a bit more details until actually asking. Is that ok for you?17:50
hannoschhaving an AMI that everyone can use (and pay for himself) is a good first step. that allows more people to build things manually. automating and cost is a separate issue17:50
sidnei_hannosch, you nailed it.17:50
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Theuni1good point17:50
sidneihannosch, also, some of this might be useful for plone too.17:51
hannoschI don't have a problem using Jarn's EC account to spend a dollar once in a while17:51
hannoschsidnei: sure. that's why I build all those Python 2.6 eggs in the first place ;)17:52
Theuni1Ok guys, I'll drop out now and prepare the protocol.17:52
Theuni1real world is calling :)17:52
hannoschsidnei: if you can lead the effort with no time pressure, I'll be happy to review and help17:52
sidneihannosch, great, thank you!17:52
hannoschjust installed a sharepoint 2010 demo instance on ec2 ... it's kinda fun :)17:53
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mcdoncdamn, missed the meeting18:22
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Theuni1mcdonc: hey there18:26
mcdoncTheuni1: hey ;)18:26
Theuni1We talked about testing and binary builds for windows mostly. I'll get the protocol later today.18:27
Theuni1I managed to piss Martijn off. :(18:27
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MJTheuni1: Growl.18:31
MJTheuni1: ;-) "Oh, the *other* Martijn?"18:32
mcdoncTheuni1: yup, just saw it in the backlog... shit happens i guess.18:33
Theuni1I didn't actually see that coming, although I maybe could have after I re-read that for a bit.18:33
mcdonccool on ec2, i didnt know they offered windows images18:33
Theuni1Then again, it feels like walking on egshells to me.18:33
mcdoncyes, he does get wound tight18:34
hannoschmcdonc: they do, and the good thing is that they take care of the license fees stuff18:34
mcdonchannosch: that's awesome18:34
hannoschyou can even get an ami with windows server, sql server and all that crap directly. pretty easy18:34
mcdonctotal win18:35
hannoschyep. setting up windows was suddenly quite nice :)18:35
Theuni1hannosch: do they offer 32/64?18:35
hannoschTheuni1: yes18:35
Theuni1very nice18:36
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hannoschthough recent versions of M$ servers only run on 64bit anyways18:36
Theuni1i'll let you and sidnei figure out what we need :)18:36
hannoschyep :) in general EC2 makes running Windows much much nicer18:38
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fdrakeHow do you use a Windows machine in EC2?  Is there a standard remote login tool that works with Windows?19:00
* fdrake is just curious, having no real use for Windows.19:00
hannoschfdrake: sure. remote desktop connection19:00
hannoschlike VNC just Microsoft19:01
hannoschof course you can install a SSH server into Windows as well19:01
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bubu_1212hello everybody19:02
hannoschan Amazon provides you with the Windows API's to talk to the machine remotely, so you can setup stuff automatically without using a graphical tool19:02
bubu_1212someone can tell how can I manage the threads in zope (v2.11)19:02
Theuni1bubu_1212: what do you mean by manage?19:03
Theuni1there's the option to tell how many threads the server uses.19:03
bubu_1212Theuni1: for exemaple to implement semaphores19:04
bubu_1212to guarantee that for a specific block the threads running in sequential mode19:04
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bubu_1212one by one19:05
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Theuni1so what's to manage there?19:06
Theuni1if you have a resource you need to lock there's the thread/threading modules in python that provide ready implementations of semaphores/locks/...19:07
fdrakehannosch: I guess should play around with that someday, since I occasionally need Windows.  It's just more fun to resist.19:09
hannoschfdrake: resistance is good. just keep in mind that there's much more painless ways to get windows today19:10
fdrakeIt's probably unrealistic to migrate my kids to EC2-based machines for playing WoW.  :-)19:11
hannoschfdrake: yeah ;) they won't be happy with the latency19:12
fdrakeThough they'd likely be faster than the dinosaurs they're using now.19:12
fdrakeThe older dinosaur is like 6 years old, at least; latency is the least of the problems.19:12
fdrakeUnless you count the latency of the graphics card.  :-)19:12
fdrakeOk, lunchtime...19:13
hannoschwell. remote graphical connections always introduce some heavy latency. if your game is real-time, it's no fun. it's like: oh Is see a monster - choose weapon, oh I'm dead :(19:13
trollfotcloser to real-life than real-time, then :p19:14
smg'day all19:14
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TresEquisTheuni1: sorry I missed the dev meeting today -- anybody have a link to a transcript?19:52
hannoschTresEquis: I haven't. but there wasn't much conclusion. talked about buildbots and windows binary eggs for the most part19:53
bigkevmcdin the absence of anything else, I have a full log from the period19:53
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TresEquisbigkevmcd: would be willing to e-mail it?  tseaver@palladion.com19:54
bigkevmcdTresEquis: sure19:55
Theuni1TresEquis: i still have to write up the summary, but i have postponed that until tomorrow morning.19:55
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TresEquisTheuni1: no worries, just wanted to catch up19:56
ignashow do I fix error_log views if I am getting "can't encode (unicode character) in latin-1" ?19:56
ignasin Zope2.1119:56
TresEquisPrompted by faassen's note to foundation-info I've done some correspondence with Sidnei and PSF's Steve Holden about Windows builds19:56
hannoschuh? that fast. amazing :)19:57
* hannosch cheers the president19:58
TresEquiswell, I got my emails sent:  haven't heard back yet19:58
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Theuni1faassen went the constructive route and actually wrote up a structured request to the board - much better than I could have extracted from the stuff I saw during the chat.19:58
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bigkevmcdTresEquis: Oh, and the times in that log are UTC20:33
TresEquisSteve Holden got me the contact at M$ who provided MSDN licenses for Python core devs:  I have written him to ask for a license donation to the ZF20:34
hannoschTresEquis: if I remember correctly from the PF deal, M$ wants the names of individuals whom to give the licenses personally20:36
hannoschbut they'll tell you, I'd guess20:36
TresEquisbigkevmcd: thanks for the transcript20:39
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TresEquishannosch: yup, we can get them whatever they need on that20:39
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betabugignas: set the encoding in the zmi IIRC20:44
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betabugignas: try it like this:
koshgreetings mobile marshmallow cookers!20:45
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moldyok, this is a stupid question, but where is the actual api documentation for zodb? i cannot find it20:46
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mcdoncmoldy: this is probably as close as it gets.. although its older than dirt...
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hannoschmoldy: you can look at but it doesn't have much20:51
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Theuni1moldy: you can also have a look at the various files in the source20:52
koshso how are you weirdos doing today?20:53
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TresEquiskosh: weird as ever21:03
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mcdonci dont *feel* funny21:06
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koshmcdonc: you have gotten used to it21:09
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moldymcdonc, hannosch, Theuni1: thanks. i didn't imagine that such a popular module would not have real api documentation.23:22
hannoschmoldy: zope in general isn't famous for having any documentation except the source23:23
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