IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-03-23

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teratornanyone know how to catch unhandled "server errors" (zope3) ?07:38
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rwatanyone got advice for the most robust way of delivering a ZEO back end? Anyone using SAN?12:58
planetzopebotTTW Dexterity Vocabularies - First report from the Tahoe Sprint working on user-enterable... (Ross Patterson)
planetzopebotAT Relation Field - Working with David Brennan on two-way references and relationships  between... (Ross Patterson)
planetzopebotSphinx + Mercurial = My favorite CMS (Let's discuss the matter further)
planetzopebotPeppercorn: A Simpler Way to Decode Form Submission Data (plope)
planetzopebotTechnologies besides Plone (Netsight Blog)
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heverHow can I add infos like "Header append Cache-Control "no-store, no-cache, must-revalidate" " for a special object a folder or perhaps for the whole server?15:18
betabugassuming Zope 2 ("always give Zope version...") using an "Accelerated HTTP Cache Manager"15:19
heverit just have an interval, where can I disable caching at all ?15:22
betabughmmmm, don't remember, in my code in those cases I just add a header to the RESPONSE in question15:23
betabugREQUEST.RESPONSE.addHeader('Pragma', 'no-cache')15:24
heverhmm thank you.15:26
betabugnp :-)15:27
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heverbetabug, I'm using "<dtml-call "RESPONSE.addHeader('Pragma', 'no-cache')">" must it be REQUEST.RESPONSE or just RESPONSE ?15:32
betabughmmm, not doing dtml much myself15:32
betabugbut I guess if dtml finds RESPONSE, then go for it, if it doesn't, then use REQUST.RESPONSE or _.RESPONSE or whatever that was15:33
betabuguse something like LiveHTTPHeader in FireFox to check if it worked15:34
heverhmm good hint15:34
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heverok it works thank you. My damn firefox just seems to cache regardless of this settings...15:36
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do3ccbetabug: you know about the plone spring currently in your country?15:39
ggozadheh, I was just pinging him about it ;)15:39
betabugcan I avoid knowing about it? :-p15:39
do3ccneed guns? ;-)15:40
betabugggozad: where? when?15:40
ggozadbetabug: don't really know, I am in Crete...15:40
trollfotggozad: for now :D15:41
ggozadbetabug: but you can ping them about it and get together for a beer.15:41
betabugit's today?15:41
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betabugor "these days"?15:41
ggozadbetabug: they'll be around up to the weekend.15:42
betabugexcept for Thursday, since they will go to the parade and then eat fish with garlic sauce?15:42
ggozadbetabug: zupo, chaoflow and Rotonen on #plone15:42
ggozadbetabug: exactly.15:42
betabugwell, too bad, I'm busy tonight and from tomorrow I'll be travelling for the 4-day weekend15:43
ggozadbetabug: no worries...15:44
betabugany idea where they are?15:44
betabugmaybe I can pass by to say hi15:44
betabugthough after work my schedule is a bit filled15:44
ggozadbetabug: ping them. I imagine somewhere central.15:45
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betabuglooks like I'll pass by and say hello later15:55
smheh betabug.. drinking with plonies!15:56
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betabugyeah :-)15:57
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RUNYAGAsLinux distros aren't shipping zope 2.12?16:40
betabugyeah, somebody mentioned that16:40
RUNYAGAsare they dist zenoss?16:41
betabugdon't remember which one, I think Debian16:41
RUNYAGAsnot a prob I care about particularly16:41
betabugIIRC it was due to the new style install procedure16:41
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betabugnot my problem either :-)16:41
RUNYAGAswhat is on agenda?16:41
TresEquisRUNYAGAs: Debian / Ubuntu is working on repackaging zope.* using setuptools16:42
kobold_RUNYAGAs: we (as debian) do not distribute zope2.12 because there is not anymore a "zope2.12" source package16:42
TresEquiskobold_: there is Zope2-2.12.tgz16:42
RUNYAGAsTresEquis: fantastic iirc they have had some fights I ternally at canonical buildout vs debs16:43
kobold_TresEquis: last time I checked it was buildout based16:43
kobold_TresEquis: which is not FHS compliant16:43
TresEquisyou can install just like any other setuptools-based Python package16:43
kobold_I will check... I'm quite sure that we gave up for that specific reason.16:43
TresEquisassuming you have the dependencies packaged, of coures16:43
kobold_does it contain all the zope* packages needed? or does it consider them to be dependencies?16:44
TresEquis$ /path/to/virtualenv --no-site-packages /tmp/z212;  /tmp/z212/bin/easy_install Zope2 will get you there16:44
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TresEquisall the current stuff should be able to be packaged using the same strategy as other Python egg-based distributions16:45
koboldthat's the main problem, we don't have all those "dependencies" in debian, we used to package zope2.12 as a monolithic package built from the tar.gz16:45
koboldI will investigate, we gave up at least one year ago (with Plone too, FWIW)16:45
TresEquisyou never packaged 2.12 as a monolithic tarball16:45
TresEquis2.11 was the last monolith16:46
koboldI stopped with zope2.10, you are right16:46
TresEquisThe canonical guys have done lots of the python-zope* packages, I think16:46
koboldyep, in debian we currently have some core zope.* packages, but no*16:47
koboldin ubuntu there are more packages needed by schooltool, IIRC16:47
koboldso... no plans to provide again a monolithic tar.gz for zope2 releases? :)16:48
koboldit would help a lot distro packagers, I suppose (at least this is true for debian and ubuntu)16:48
vortechi #zope. is there a way to make ZPublisher.HTTPRequest.FileUpload tell me how many bytes were transferred yet?16:49
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vortecthat's unfortunate. what's the reason for that?16:50
vortec(not sure i understand how ZPublisher works correctly)16:50
TresEquisvortec: what to you mean "yet"?16:51
TresEquisby the time the application is in play, the upload is done already, and in a tempfile16:52
TresEquiskobold: if we give you a monolith, that is like shipping "bundled libraries"16:53
TresEquiswhich itself would violate policy, I think16:53
TresEquissince the separate pieces are managed / released independently16:53
vortecoh, really? my understanding was this: the user selects a file, the action of that form is "/uploadHelper". "uploadHelper" is a zope method which takes REQUEST as a parameter. once the user hits "submit", "uploadHelper" is called and i have live information about the current upload available16:53
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koboldTresEquis: I understand your point, but this is a packaging nightmare, because packaging zope2 means uploading 20-25 source packages (almost none of the dependencies is available in debian)16:55
TresEquisThey are al "regular" eggs, which should be automatable, no?16:56
TresEquisthey declare their dependencies correctly, etc.16:56
koboldyes, but AFAICK zope2 depends on specific versions of those eggs16:56
koboldso uploading a new (indipendent) zope.component can break zope2, isn't it?16:57
TresEquisit can -- how is that different than any other shared library?16:57
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koboldTresEquis: you usually don't have a software which depends on >20 shared libraries you don't already have in the distribution16:58
bigkevmcdkobold: I'm not sure that's significant16:58
koboldI'm not saying it is not doable, I'm saying it is a lot of work, that's we we dropped it16:58
bigkevmcdkobold: the same could be said of almost any Gnome app16:58
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koboldbigkevmcd: compare the gnome team in debian with the zope one, and you understand why it is not exactly the same situation :)16:59
koboldwe don't have so much man power, sadly16:59
bigkevmcdand the package is usually awful to boot :-(16:59
* Theuni1 dusts himself off17:00
koboldanyway, it seems the preferred way to install zope stuff today is either buildout or virtenv, so nobody will miss the debian/ubuntu packages17:00
* Theuni1 waves17:00
Theuni1here's todays agenda:
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Theuni1TresEquis: oh, you were able to make it? :)17:01
Theuni1So the first topic would be the ZTK release manager.17:02
regebrohi all!17:02
Theuni1As far as I summed the discussion last week all the actual proceedings of getting towards a release are postponed until we find an RM, right?17:02
regebroWas there any names mentioned?17:03
* regebro says "not it!" and tags Theuni1.17:03
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* fdrake reloads his caffeination vessel.17:03
Theuni1regebro: nope, no names were dropped.17:03
Theuni1thanks for the tag17:03
* Theuni1 puts the tag on the stack.17:03
Theuni1Now I have a tag stack.17:04
Theuni1regebro: we pondered suggesting individuals. but nobody stepped up and nobody nominated someone else. ;)17:04
* betabug heads into town to see the plohn guys17:05
bigkevmcdbetabug: I'll look for the headlines...17:05
regebroNot a popular job, apparently. Can it be made easier?17:05
vortecso i may ask differently: where is the place zope deals with ongoing requests, before it handles the request itself and calls registered methods/scripts/templates?17:05
* TresEquis nominates hannosch ;)17:05
Theuni1the job currently is labeled "define it yourself"17:06
Theuni1TresEquis: hmm. actually i think someone tried that last week.17:06
TresEquisvortec: inside ZServer or the WSGI server17:06
Theuni1hannosch refused because he's expecting to be pulled towards Z2 release manager17:06
koboldTheuni1: are we looking for *one* release manager?17:06
Theuni1kobold: yes17:06
koboldso the concept of release team has been put off17:06
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koboldafter the steering group did not work very well17:07
Theuni1kobold: the idea was to have a single point for driving it.17:07
Theuni1yeah, kinda. ;)17:07
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Theuni1especially as we will need some more in-depth discussions and stuff to be followed specifically for the ztk and for communicating with the actual users17:07
TresEquisshould we have each project which relies on ZTK nominate a representative (its own release manager)17:08
TresEquisand have that group do the job?17:08
Theuni1TresEquis: sounds like the bootstrapping approach that would have been reasonable for the steering group in the first place.17:09
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fdrakeHave we defined goals for ZTK releases that make them measurable distinct from selecting specific versions from svn?17:09
regebroTresEquis: That makes a lot of sense actually.17:09
Theuni1fdrake: only on a very high level. those would include documentation, defined points of backwards-compatibility changes, a desired level of synchronicity with various framework releases.17:10
Theuni1fdrake: the point is that (component) developers have a chance of writing code that is compatible with z2, bluebream, grok etc17:10
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kobolddo the ztk consumers do time-based releases?17:11
Theuni1TresEquis: i'm a bit suspicious about the voting details. what are the groups that get to vote/nominate?17:11
Theuni1kobold: neh17:11
fdrakeOk, got it.  It's more for the network effect than any stability in the codebases that form the ZTK itself.17:11
TresEquisTheuni1: I would say Zope2, Grok, Bluebream for a start17:11
koboldTheuni1: so how would it be possible to share the same ztk among them?17:12
TresEquisif those three can converge on a single definition, everybody else will follow17:12
Theuni1kobold: if Zope-2.X and grok Y and bb Z depend on ZTK W then everything is fine. why does that have to be timebased?17:12
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Theuni1TresEquis: sounds fair enough to me17:13
koboldTresEquis is right, if *they* don't agree, you cannot impose them a release strategy17:13
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Theuni1can i have a show of hands who thinks tres' idea should be implemented?17:14
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Theuni1fdrake: right. the stability of the individual packages and the ztk itself should be there independent of the releases17:15
Theuni1ok, so that sounds like we should approach that.17:16
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Theuni1I'll note that and make the effort of contacting the various communities.17:16
TresEquisZODB is a special case, too17:16
TresEquisin that all three consume it, but it isn't part of the ZTK17:16
TresEquisper se17:17
regebroIt seems to be doing well anyway.17:17
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regebroShould it need release management we can suck it into ZTK, if our process works,17:17
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agroszerI guess zodb release is in strong hands17:18
Theuni1yeah, the changes usually aren't that drastic in the sense that they hinder the development of apps/components. they usually cover more operational aspects.17:18
Theuni1regebro: that's what i thought. if the process itself works, then there should be no problem in just putting in the ZODB into the list of managed packages. we don't necessarily have to put the burden of caring about the dependency breakage onto the ZODB developers but onto the ZTk maintainers.17:18
Theuni1if they want to upgrade to a new ZODB version, then that's fine.17:18
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Theuni1but i'd leave that for the future.17:19
Theuni1Next topic: bug tracking17:19
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Theuni1I'm relatively sure that the ZTK packages aren't managed too well WRT bugs triage and fixing.17:20
Theuni1Unfortunately that mainly comes from the issue that I'm loosing track of what's being tracked where and how many bugs are open etc.17:20
Theuni1The Zope 2 guys seem to be doing pretty well, though.17:21
Theuni1How does everyone else feel?17:21
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regebroI think Zope 2 has been doing badly too.17:21
regebroBut hanno made a big cleanup recently.17:22
Theuni1Are all the Zope 2 bugs managed in a single launchpad project?17:22
koboldI think one of the first tasks for the new RM is to define a central bug tracker for ZTK packages17:22
regebroTheuni1: Yup.17:22
Theuni1kobold: well, there is the 'zope3' project in launchpad which historically covered the whole code base.17:23
koboldTheuni1: I did not say "create", I said "define" :)17:23
koboldquite sure there are bugs filed somewhere else too17:23
Theuni1I hear you. :)17:23
Theuni1I'm wondering whether to put all bugs of ZTK packages into a single place or not.17:23
koboldit should be crystal clear to everybody that *that* one is the central bt17:23
koboldwhy not?17:24
regebroCan we rename the Zope 3 tracker "ZTK"?17:24
Theuni1putting them in many places definitely sounds like creating way too many things to watch out for.17:24
sidneia 'project group' can be created in launchpad where you can centralize all the bugs from many different projects. one thing i am not sure is if a project can be in more than a 'project group' at once.17:24
TresEquisTheuni1: we could create a launchpad project for 'ztk'17:24
Theuni1regebro: i think we can with a little help from the LP admins17:24
TresEquisand then triage zope3 bugs into it17:24
Theuni1i might already have create a ztk product even17:24
TresEquisas applicabble17:24
TresEquisand use tags to indicate the component projects17:24
Theuni1i actually also might have screwed with individual package projects17:24
Theuni1TresEquis: i'd be happy with that if other people agree with that being a good approach.17:25
sidneialternatively, when a bug is filed you can create a bug task through 'also affects' and assign it to a second project17:25
sidneithe 'right way' to do it as the system was designed would be to track individual statuses for the different projects17:25
* baijum got some ZTK bug assigned to BlueBream... now re-assigned to zope317:25
sidneiso the bug gets filed against say '' and then you mark 'also affects: ztk' and 'also affects: bluebream'17:26
Theuni1i think the point why i started going down the road of individual projects in LP is that otherwise release management is impossible.17:26
* mgedmin really wants every separate Python package to have its own launchpad bug tracker17:26
sidneiand each individual bug task gets closed as the related projects release new versions17:26
mgedminand some kind of a group so maintainers can search for all the bugs within the whole of ZTK/Bluebream/whatever17:26
Theuni1mgedmin: right. that does have its benefits. but its a lot of management dance around that.17:26
Theuni1i tried writing some tools with the LP API last EP but got stuck17:26
mgedminthe launchpad guys use zope 317:26
mgedminI'm sure they would be glad to help us figure out the launchpad project management bits17:27
Theuni1here's a suggestion17:27
mgedminheck, launchpad _is_ a ztk app17:27
mgedmineating own dogfood etc.17:27
Theuni1I think we can start with Tres' suggestion and have less moving pieces and just ignore the release management part of LP's bug tracker for now.17:27
Theuni1I'll definitely be at LP and I think LP guys will be there so I could talk to them about that.17:28
TresEquis"be at LP"?17:28
Theuni1yes, sorry, thanks17:28
Theuni1Time's almost over.17:29
Theuni1Can I have a show of hands about the last suggestion?17:29
mgedminI'm not sure what the suggestion was, but +1 anyway17:29
mgedminI'm sure it was a good suggestion ;)17:29
sidneiwhat is the suggestion again? using 'ztk' as the project where bugs get filed?17:30
Theuni1mgedmin: the suggestion was: one single project for now to get started and to a defined point and later figure out how to use individual projects.17:30
fdrake+1 if we want to stick with LP17:30
Theuni1sidnei: yes17:30
Theuni1fdrake: i'm avoiding tooling discussions for now ;)17:30
regebroAlso +1 for everyone going to europython. :)17:30
Theuni1regebro: hahaha yeah17:30
sidneiim definitely -1 on that, but oh well.17:30
Theuni1sidnei: hmm. can i get a comment on why?17:30
bigkevmcdsidnei: yeah, why?17:31
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sidneiTheuni1, if im looking for bugs in, i will go to the project to look for bugs, not to ztk.17:31
bigkevmcdsidnei: if you come, you can come and crash here for a couple of days if you like :-)17:31
agroszerTheuni1, maybe you should stick a list of the packages covered by ztk into LP17:31
agroszerinto the bugtracker just for sure17:31
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Theuni1sidnei: right. that's the reason for why in the long run and in a perfect environment i'd be happy to go that route. and that's also why the suggestion includes a notion of "for now"17:32
Theuni1agroszer: good idea17:32
sidneiif the suggestion of putting the bugs on ztk is only to get an unified overview of all the bugs, the same can be achieved by creating a project group with all the underlying projects17:32
Theuni1sidnei: right. i tried that last year with some tools for managing those, but LP got really painful about managing that list of projects and keeping it in sync with other stuff.17:32
mgedminsidnei, you could go to, search for, and add bug tasks belonging to the LP project17:33
mgedminsay, monthly17:33
Theuni1mgedmin: heck, i could write a script to do that. *could*. ;)17:33
regebro : " does not use Launchpad for         bug tracking."  :-D17:33
Theuni1time's up17:34
sidneii'd like to propose that instead of using tags to mark that say is affected, that we do use 'also affects'17:34
Theuni1regebro: yeah, i think that's a residual from my half-baked effort last year17:34
agroszerTheuni1, and maybe remove those separate LP projects that are covered by ztk17:34
sidneithen im fine with initially filling under ztk and then gardening into the individual projects17:34
Theuni1sidnei: i'd be happy with that. but just for clarification: that won't happen initially17:34
* Theuni1 declares the official part over17:35
Theuni1everybody keep discussing if you want to :)17:35
agroszerI think having bug tracking under ZTK and a separate package will be distracting17:35
Theuni1agroszer: the point is that LP bug tracker can keep track of bugs WRT releases/versions17:35
agroszerat the same time17:35
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Theuni1and LP is also made to handle distributions of packages versus individual actual packages17:36
* do3cc grabs a beer17:36
Theuni1however, that involves quite some bureaucracy which i'd like to keep down17:36
Theuni1do3cc: how's your shoulder?17:36
agroszerTheuni1, what I try to avoid is if a newby comes and looks where to file the bug, he will know17:36
do3ccmost movements are possible, some are as bad before, will see a doctor on wednesday17:37
Theuni1agroszer: right17:37
do3ccwhats worse, my trip to brazil might get cancelled due to strikes more time for buildbot I guess ;-)17:37
agroszerTheuni1, I guess he will take the first which comes up by search17:37
baijumagroszer: mention the ztk tracker in PyPI page and other places for individual packages?17:38
agroszerbaijum, I think until you can enter the bug at two places there will be people who will use the wrong one17:39
* mgedmin wonders about the state of the buildbot screenscraper script17:39
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do3ccmgedmin: Theuni convinced me to drop the idea17:40
mgedminwhat's the alternative?17:40
do3ccI am playing with the idea, to ask for the mails to be sent to a server of mine. That parses the mail and generates mails the other parser understands17:41
do3ccif I remember correctly, there is not much customization in the subject of buildbot mails possible17:41
do3ccelse, I'll try to get hold of the script that parses mails currently17:41
do3ccbut with my long holiday trip short ahead I did not have time to find the script or its maker17:42
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* sm reads.. looks like a productive meeting18:54
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tim_richcan i use tal in css files?21:52
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fdrakeThat's an underspecified question.21:54
davisaglitim_rich: yes, if you give it a extension so that it gets processed as a page template21:54
davisaglier, well, depends how you're registering it21:54
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tim_richok but i'm used to using tal to create xml style tags, i want to access request/resourcebase/++resource++images/image.jpg from css to set background-image.21:55
tim_richmaybe just use python?21:56
tim_richconfused :s21:56
fdrakeI think we generally understand the goals of using TAL to generate CSS.21:56
tim_richok but how can i use tal without creating <> </> style tags?21:57
fdrakeThe questions we'd have to ask to be helpful start with: How are you processing the template?21:57
fdrakeAh!  Use <tal:sometag replace="expression"/> to just get some text.21:58
tim_richgreat thanks! off i go!21:59
fdrakeYou'll be back.  :-)22:00
* fdrake feels like a pusher....22:00
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tim_richim back22:12
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tim_richhow can i use a TAL in css? I make file but it's not recognised as css then.22:14
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tim_richaha register it as style.css!22:15
fdrakeYep... Won't charge you for that one.  :-)22:17
fdrakeYou'll have to use TAL in XML-mode; namespaces will have to be declared and all that.22:18
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runyagafdrake, you guys using solr?22:23
runyagai think that is you on the solrpy mlist22:23
fdrakeThat is.22:24
fdrakeAre you looking at using it?22:24
runyagawe have been using it for about 18 months22:25
runyagaon various projects22:25
runyagasolr 1.4 kicks butt22:25
fdrakeYeah?  I've not had time to look at the details of the update.22:25
runyagafacets are really nice22:25
fdrakeHopefully soon I'll have time.22:25
fdrakeHave those in 1.3.  Are there new features?22:26
fdrake(For facets.)22:26
runyagaoh sorry22:27
runyagait was the binary indexing in 1.4 integrated tika22:27
fdrakeDon't think I need that.22:29
runyagaits nice for contextual hits in the text22:31
runyagai.e. the term that is most relevant is in this context in the document22:31
runyagaeveryone loves the google results22:31
fdrakeHmm.  Maybe worth a little time to skin the release notes.  :-)  Time's in short supply, as always.22:32
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tim_richfdrake: i register css as a page (browser:page)?22:51
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fdrakeNormally it should be a resource.22:52
fdrakeBut it all depends on how it's used.22:52
tim_richzope is hell22:52
fdrakebrowser:view would only apply if it makes sense that it's a view of some other object.22:53
fdrakeThere's a learning curve.  :-)22:53
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tim_richv slippy :S22:53
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