IRC log of #zope for Wednesday, 2010-05-26

*** benji has quit IRC00:12
*** regebro has left #zope00:13
*** zagy has quit IRC00:13
*** TKtiddle has joined #zope00:14
*** smita has joined #zope00:14
*** Arfrever has quit IRC00:17
*** jan_s has quit IRC00:18
*** RichardBarrell has joined #zope00:20
*** r0ver has joined #zope00:22
*** antlong has joined #zope00:44
*** purserj has joined #zope00:51
*** ignas has quit IRC00:53
*** ccomb has quit IRC00:53
*** antlong has left #zope00:56
*** alecm has quit IRC01:00
*** TKtiddle has quit IRC01:07
*** srichter has quit IRC01:11
*** TKtiddle has joined #zope01:13
*** Hypergraphe has quit IRC01:13
*** alecm has joined #zope01:18
*** aaronv has quit IRC01:19
*** Vejeta has quit IRC01:35
*** Vejeta has joined #zope01:35
*** runyaga has quit IRC01:42
*** digilord has quit IRC01:55
*** vipod has quit IRC02:13
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope02:21
*** MrTango has quit IRC02:31
*** russf has joined #zope02:34
*** daMaestro has quit IRC02:46
*** daMaestro has joined #zope02:49
*** srichter has joined #zope02:53
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away02:58
*** mr_jolly has left #zope03:02
*** dayne has quit IRC03:03
*** digilord has joined #zope03:19
*** TKtiddle has quit IRC03:33
*** tiwula has quit IRC03:37
*** RichardBarrell has quit IRC03:40
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli03:49
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away03:50
*** Vejeta` has joined #zope03:54
*** daMaestro has quit IRC03:55
*** Vejeta has quit IRC03:56
*** redir has joined #zope03:57
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli04:04
*** SpankyFromBRC has quit IRC04:06
*** allisterb has quit IRC04:08
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away04:09
*** lucmult has joined #zope04:16
*** lucmult has left #zope04:16
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli04:23
*** baijum has joined #zope04:48
*** tiwula has joined #zope04:54
*** r0ver has quit IRC05:13
*** ignas has joined #zope05:23
*** r0ver has joined #zope05:31
*** lucmult has joined #zope05:34
*** r0ver has left #zope05:35
*** lucmult has left #zope05:43
*** allisterb has joined #zope05:46
*** mcdonc__ has joined #zope05:47
*** tiwula has quit IRC05:47
*** baijum has quit IRC05:48
*** baijum1 has joined #zope05:48
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away05:50
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli06:11
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away06:20
*** baijum1 has quit IRC06:20
*** alecm has quit IRC06:30
*** digilord has quit IRC06:32
CIA-94rogerineichen * r112717 z3c.jsonrpc/ (4 files in 3 dirs): import doctest from python06:36
CIA-94rogerineichen * r112718 z3c.jsontree/ (3 files in 2 dirs):06:36
CIA-94Fix className handling in javacsript, it seems that newer version of JQuery06:36
CIA-94can't handle $.className.has(ele, ...) use $(ele).hasClass(...) instead.06:36
*** lucmult has joined #zope06:41
*** lucmult has quit IRC06:41
*** mcdonc__ has quit IRC06:45
*** baijum has joined #zope07:01
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli07:03
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away07:04
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli07:05
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away07:05
*** huajie has joined #zope07:06
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli07:07
*** Vejeta`` has joined #zope07:08
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away07:09
*** Vejeta` has quit IRC07:10
*** runyaga has joined #zope07:12
*** skt has joined #zope07:12
*** astoon has joined #zope07:14
*** dunny has joined #zope07:33
*** zagy has joined #zope07:35
*** vipod has joined #zope08:05
*** d2m has joined #zope08:09
*** huajie has quit IRC08:19
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli08:19
*** Vejeta``` has joined #zope08:20
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away08:20
*** Vejeta`` has quit IRC08:21
*** russf has left #zope08:26
*** Vejeta``` is now known as Vejeta08:31
*** Vejeta has quit IRC08:31
*** Vejeta has joined #zope08:31
*** huajie has joined #zope08:31
*** astoon has quit IRC08:35
*** zagy has quit IRC08:35
*** baijum has quit IRC08:36
*** Vejeta` has joined #zope08:36
*** Vejeta has quit IRC08:38
*** astoon has joined #zope08:40
*** zagy has joined #zope08:52
*** sashav has quit IRC08:59
*** wosc has joined #zope09:00
*** aphor has quit IRC09:07
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli09:10
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away09:15
*** phimic has joined #zope09:16
CIA-94janwijbrand * r112719 /zope.password/branches/jw-fix-ssha-pwmanager: Branch for fixing the ssha password manager to cope with unicode input for checkPassword().09:17
*** Theuni1 has joined #zope09:22
CIA-94janwijbrand jw-fix-ssha-pwmanager * r112720 zope.password/src/zope/password/ encode the input string (being the hashed password) to ascii in checkPassword()09:30
*** pingviini has quit IRC09:33
*** redir has quit IRC09:39
*** digitalmortician has joined #zope09:40
*** astoon has quit IRC09:49
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli09:54
*** redir has joined #zope09:55
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away09:56
*** sashav has joined #zope09:57
*** smita has quit IRC10:00
*** astoon has joined #zope10:04
CIA-94ctheune * r112721 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/zope-dev/zope-dev-20100525.rst: Summary from yesterday.10:08
*** astoon has quit IRC10:18
*** redir has quit IRC10:18
*** tisto has joined #zope10:19
*** astoon has joined #zope10:31
*** planetzopebot has quit IRC10:33
*** planetzopebot has joined #zope10:34
*** neo|4D has joined #zope10:34
*** Theuni1 has quit IRC10:37
*** MJ has joined #zope10:37
*** aphor has joined #zope10:41
*** neo|4D has quit IRC10:42
*** ignas has quit IRC10:42
*** ccomb has joined #zope10:42
*** neo|4D has joined #zope10:43
*** eperez has joined #zope10:50
*** aphor has quit IRC10:53
*** touff has quit IRC10:59
*** MrTango has joined #zope11:01
*** aphor has joined #zope11:01
*** digitalmortician has quit IRC11:04
*** ignas has joined #zope11:23
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope11:25
*** hartym has quit IRC11:30
*** hartym has joined #zope11:31
*** astoon has quit IRC11:33
*** Theuni1 has joined #zope11:36
*** regebro has joined #zope11:39
*** MJ has quit IRC11:42
*** huajie has quit IRC11:52
*** evilbungle has joined #zope12:00
*** MJ has joined #zope12:08
CIA-94zagy * r112722 zope.testing/CHANGES.txt: add the 3.8.7 changelog to trunk12:33
*** teix has joined #zope12:47
*** mcdonc__ has joined #zope12:49
*** mr_jolly has left #zope12:49
*** f10w has quit IRC12:50
*** d2m has quit IRC12:52
*** yvl has quit IRC12:53
*** tisto has quit IRC12:54
*** hever has joined #zope12:55
*** d2m has joined #zope12:56
*** bhagat has joined #zope13:02
CIA-94andreasjung * r112723 zopyx.smartprintng.server/README.txt: updated13:03
bhagatlike  obect.manage_addProperty      what   method is there  to   change/update  the value of  an attribute.13:04
koshjust change the attribute13:04
koshsomeobject.attribute = newvalue13:05
betabughey d2m! long time no see!13:05
d2mhi betabug13:05
betabughow's life?13:05
d2mits been a while, yes13:05
* kosh sets betabug on fire and hands out marshmallows13:05
d2mlife is great, thanks - how about yours?13:06
betabugfine :-)13:06
bhagatkosh,  d2m   let me try  with your tips13:07
*** giampaolo has joined #zope13:09
d2mha, the API docs disappeared in the current Zope bokk ;)13:09
*** pingviini has joined #zope13:10
d2m26.2. SorryThe manually maintained API reference wasn’t such a good idea. Converting it from the original source of structured text to reStructuredText was too much work to be done. We will look into auto-generating the API documentation from docstrings at some point. Reading the code is your best bet for now.13:10
d2mdream on ...13:10
betabugand the zope code is totally unstructured with the move to the new packaging system13:11
d2mthere is not much that helps a newbie to get into Zope these days13:11
koshyeah zope is harder to get into then it used to be13:14
koshfor some reason the developers of it all like eggs and breaking everything up into small pieces13:14
koshbut god figuring out how to upgrade stuff is a pain in the neck13:15
*** smita has joined #zope13:23
*** emrojo has joined #zope13:24
koshI am still not sure how to upgrade the installed version of zope 2.12 to the newest version13:26
koshthe instructions are to use easy_install but upgrade won't get dependencies13:26
koshso upgrading the system to a new version sure seems like a major bitch13:26
koshjust seems so much harder to work now with zope 213:28
*** evilbungle has quit IRC13:35
*** sim_sim has quit IRC13:35
*** agroszer has joined #zope13:39
*** d2m has quit IRC13:39
*** d2m has joined #zope13:42
*** d2m1 has joined #zope13:45
*** ulif has joined #zope13:46
*** evilbungle has joined #zope13:46
*** d2m has quit IRC13:48
bhagatkosh :  manage_changeProperties({})  worked  like a charm, but      someobject.attribute = newvalue   failed with error    attribute-less   Type error or something, anyway thanks13:53
koshthen it wasn't an attribute13:56
koshyou mixed up two different questions, you asked about properties and attributes13:56
*** f10w has joined #zope13:57
*** Theuni1 has quit IRC14:00
*** mcdonc__ has quit IRC14:07
*** bhagat_ has joined #zope14:10
*** hever has quit IRC14:10
*** bhagat has quit IRC14:10
*** TresEquis has joined #zope14:14
*** aaronv has joined #zope14:16
*** thetet has joined #zope14:21
*** Theuni1 has joined #zope14:21
CIA-94adamg 3.4 * r112724 zope.release/releases/ANNOUNCEMENT.txt: note about tgz and exe releases14:23
*** brguedes has joined #zope14:23
brguedeshello everybody14:24
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli14:24
brguedessomeone can tell me, if this any retry mechanism in ZOPE? specifically in python scripts, using the response.redirect14:25
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away14:25
TresEquisbrguedes: Zope's retry handling is built in to the publisher:  requests which provoke ZODB's ConflictErrors get retried up to 3 times14:31
*** TresEquis has quit IRC14:33
planetzopebotIdan Gazit: Design for developers (Reinout van Rees' weblog)
*** alveraan has joined #zope14:35
*** thetet has quit IRC14:37
brguedesbut these 3 times retry exists in redirect function?14:38
alveraanHi. I wonder if it's possible to execute a bash script using zope (e.g. user clicks an html button, script is executed)? With script python this seems to be impossible because of the security restrictions.14:39
bigkevmcdalveraan: you could write a Python product, or an external method14:42
*** hever has joined #zope14:42
*** mcdonc__ has joined #zope14:42
*** sim_sim has joined #zope14:43
brguedesI have this error14:44
brguedes2010-05-26T09:54:53 INFO ZPublisher.Conflict ConflictError at /VirtualHostBase/http/<directory>: database conflict error (oid 0x79b2, class BTrees.OOBTree.OOBTree, serial this txn started with 0x0314:44
brguedes86673475613f66 2010-05-26 08:52:27.510908, serial currently committed 0x03866736e4590477 2010-05-26 08:54:53.518998) (198 conflicts14:44
alveraanbigkevmcd, I'll take a look at external methods, thanks for the hint.14:44
*** thetet has joined #zope14:47
*** eperez is now known as eperez|comiendo14:50
*** tisto has joined #zope14:55
*** Theuni1 has quit IRC15:02
*** smita has quit IRC15:03
*** touff has joined #zope15:03
*** redir has joined #zope15:05
*** Theuni1 has joined #zope15:06
*** mcdonc__ has quit IRC15:08
*** mcdonc__ has joined #zope15:08
*** skt has quit IRC15:08
*** menesis has joined #zope15:09
*** benji has joined #zope15:12
*** redir has quit IRC15:13
*** krohit has joined #zope15:17
*** mcdonc__ has quit IRC15:18
*** astoon has joined #zope15:21
*** astoon has quit IRC15:21
*** RichardBarrell has joined #zope15:22
*** alveraan has quit IRC15:23
*** dunny has quit IRC15:26
*** bhagat_ has quit IRC15:28
*** evilbungle has quit IRC15:34
krohitaphor: /me15:38
krohitaaa: /me wabt15:38
*** krohit has left #zope15:38
*** gypsymauro has joined #zope15:39
CIA-94andreasjung * r112725 zopyx.smartprintng.server/README.txt: updated15:39
*** bowe has joined #zope15:40
gypsymaurothere is a way in a template to know the url of a rendered template? I mean I'm accessing to site/foo/bar that is the template I want to know the /foo/bar path15:40
betabugin zope >= 2.10, you have to set the "name" of the ZPT where you define it in your python code15:41
betabugalso good old REQUEST['URL'] or something like that15:41
betabugcheck a sample REQUEST which one you need15:42
koshbetabug: well I figured out how to upgrade zope 2.1215:42
betabugwhat was the problem?15:42
koshwell easy_install can't upgrade so that did not work15:43
betabugjust install the new version and switch over the instance15:43
koshI figured out a way to use buildout to install it to /opt/Zope2-2.12.6  and then changed all the instances to point to that version15:43
koshI tried to just install 2.12.6 and easy_install would not do it since it did not want to upgrade other depenencies15:43
koshwith the old one installed easy_install did not want to install a new one15:44
betabugeven with a different virtual_environment?15:44
koshthen I would have to figure out how to setup a virtual environment for no reason15:45
koshall of this stuff has been made FAR more complex then it needs to be15:45
koshI used one zope version on the server at any given time now, all instances use just that version15:45
koshhowever I have 4 instances + 1 zeo in a load balanced setup15:45
betabugI wouldn't touch easy_intall without virtualenvironment15:46
koshI did not want to deal with virtual environments and making sure that when the system started zope up that the virtual environment was entered correctly etc15:46
koshwell easy_install put the stuff in /usr/local so should be no problem with that and I have no conflicts15:46
koshthe buildout one though worked easier I just have a zope sitting in /opt that has everything in it15:47
koshand pointed to that in zopectl and runzope and it works15:47
koshno buildout to manage instances, just to get it installed15:47
koshgod I miss the days of just downloaidng the tar.gz and being done with it15:48
betabugyeah :-)15:48
koshinstall of all this complex stuff to just get an install15:48
koshI realy hope that debian/ubuntu goes back to packing zope again15:48
koshbut apparently they stopped doing it because it had gotten so complex to package it15:48
*** redir has joined #zope15:53
*** tarek has quit IRC15:58
*** bowe has quit IRC15:59
*** tarek has joined #zope15:59
*** mgedmin has joined #zope16:03
*** dvschramm has joined #zope16:05
*** Arfrever has joined #zope16:12
*** pingviini has quit IRC16:14
*** huajie has joined #zope16:15
*** pingviini has joined #zope16:21
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli16:23
*** lucmult has joined #zope16:24
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away16:24
*** gypsymauro has quit IRC16:26
*** lucmult has left #zope16:27
*** mgedmin has quit IRC16:28
*** mcdonc__ has joined #zope16:28
*** pingviini has quit IRC16:28
*** mcdonc__ has quit IRC16:32
*** mcdonc__ has joined #zope16:32
*** pingviini has joined #zope16:32
*** touff has quit IRC16:36
*** touff has joined #zope16:39
*** bowe has joined #zope16:41
*** dayne has joined #zope16:43
*** pingviini has quit IRC16:44
*** pingviini has joined #zope16:46
*** Theuni1 has quit IRC16:59
*** wosc has quit IRC17:00
*** evilbungle has joined #zope17:01
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli17:02
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away17:04
*** touff has quit IRC17:09
*** Ariel_Calzada has joined #zope17:10
*** Ariel_Calzada has left #zope17:11
*** Pupuser402 has joined #zope17:11
*** Pupuser402 has quit IRC17:11
*** mgedmin has joined #zope17:12
*** hever has quit IRC17:12
*** d2m has joined #zope17:12
*** Theuni1 has joined #zope17:12
*** d2m1 has quit IRC17:15
TheJesterYes, step 1 to increasing your userbase: make it impossible to install17:17
*** dayne has quit IRC17:19
*** Vejeta`` has joined #zope17:25
Theuni1that will make the bugs stick out less17:26
TheJesterCorrect, if you don't do it, you can't do it wrong...17:26
*** pepeu has joined #zope17:26
*** Vejeta` has quit IRC17:27
Theuni1case closed :)17:29
TheJester*** #zope is now known as #django17:29
planetzopebotisotoma.recipe.plonetools 0.0.4 (PyPI recent updates)
*** zagy has quit IRC17:36
aphorThe problem with .deb is that it is a versioning system for files on disk. Zope wanted to be cross platform, so they did zc.buildout. There needs to be an adapter layer between the Linux packaging metadata and the zc.buildout layer, but who should provide it?17:40
TheJestererr17:40 is a packaging system17:40
TheJestererr .deb17:41
TheJesterEach os has their own packaging method17:41
aphorTheJester: a package is a label implying a set of files of given versions.17:41
TheJester99% of the rest of the software forr the rest of the world17:41
TheJesterWorks fine17:41
TheJesterWith these systems17:41
aphorThejester: if you ignore all non-linux systems.17:41
TheJesterInclduing *gasp* package dependencies17:42
aphorsorry: if you only consider monolithic software.17:42
*** dayne has joined #zope17:42
TheJesteryou should take that act on tour17:43
aphorTheJester: it should be easy, but boring, to make a buildout that wraps everything it downloads in a .deb package.17:45
TheJesterI don't want it to downloa danything17:45
TheJesterI want it to install into the actual environment that already exists17:45
TheJesterLike it used tto17:45
TheJesterFor the past 11 years17:45
aphorYou want to freeze a version and bundle it up and do manual release management for those packages?17:45
TheJesterWelcome to release management17:46
TheJesterRather than "what random shit just got installed"17:46
TheJesterPBIs are a different story17:46
aphorIf you want someone to pay you to do release management and .deb packaging, or you want to volunteer, that's your business.17:46
TheJesterSo you're saying that a zope install doesn't do that now?17:47
TheJesterIt just guesses about what has to be installed?17:47
aphorTheJester: buildout does version control. [versions]17:47
TheJesterAnd downloads it17:47
aphorThe default hits PyPi and does what all packaging systems do with versions and dependencies.17:48
TheJesterIt's not packaged is what you said17:48
aphor...but it also works on RedHat and MacOS and Solaris and Windows.17:48
aphorThe packages are eggs.17:49
aphoreggs are to Python what jars are to Java.17:49
TheJestereggs are zip files17:49
TheJesteras ar jars17:49
aphorso are jars17:49
aphorLook carefully, and you will find package metadata.17:50
TheJesterThey're not magical, they're just a PITA in general17:50
TheJesterIn production they're fine17:50
aphorThey are only a PITA because cross platform packaging is a differnt problem than platform specific packaging.17:50
*** srichter has quit IRC17:50
TheJesterSo you let the people that know about the platform, DO the packaging instead of screwing it up for everyone d8)17:51
aphor..except they didn't do the packaging.17:52
TheJesterThey used to, before it got too complicated d8)17:52
aphorYour argument boils down to "I like .deb better than buildout"17:53
TheJesterI don't use .deb, so, no it doesn't17:53
TheJesterI don't even use Linux17:53
aphorpoint taken17:53
TheJesterOr Windows17:53
aphorYour argument boils down to "I like X better than buildout"17:54
TheJesterWhat it boils down to, is that the requirements for Zope XYZ are already known, and are plugged into something instead of just being bundled17:54
aphorYou can still make your own packages for each egg and then you can use your own packaging system.17:55
TheJesterBut now, there's a 3-way handshake, including pypi where things can disappear17:55
TheJesterWhich means it's entirelyu possible to get version of zope that can no longer be installed17:55
*** eperez|comiendo is now known as eperez17:56
*** giampaolo has quit IRC17:56
TheJesterwhich does what ?17:56
fdrakeThere's also zc.sourcerelease, which can be used to create a source release from a buildout, including the referenced versions of packages.17:57
TheJesterAKA "I can't explain my argument"17:57
fdrakeWe (Zope Corp) use that, and then produce system packages (RPMs in our case) from that.17:57
fdrakeSo all software is frozen at build time.17:58
*** huajie has quit IRC17:58
TheJesterWhich begs the question as to why a self-contained source package isn't generated as it has been since before the millenium17:58
TheJesterWhich is pretty much what kosh was asking for17:59
fdrakeTheJester: Isn't generated from what?17:59
*** cwarner_ has joined #zope17:59
fdrakebuildout doesn't generate packages; that's not its job.17:59
TheJesterFrom the 'frozen' software ?17:59
TheJesterYou and aphor need to agree first d8)18:00
aphorIf you do dumppickedversions, then you can use the picked versions as a package metadata file.18:00
*** sashav has quit IRC18:00
TheJesterpicked versions of the dependencies that don't exist ?18:01
aphorThen you can bundle up a buildout with all the right tarballs in a cache directory, and have your package postinstall do a buildout from cache.18:01
TheJesterwhen can I do that?18:02
fdrakebuildout performs a build, optionally taking into account version specifications for dependencies.18:02
fdrakezc.sourcerelease creates a source release from the same configuration data.18:02
aphorTheJester: when you are developing your package, you can freeze versions at a tested and proven set.18:02
CIA-94jim * r112726 zc.recipe.rhrc/ (doc.txt Don't write doc.txt in setup. That's what --long-description is for.18:02
CIA-94jim * r112727 zc.recipe.rhrc/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Cleaned up trailing whitespace.18:02
CIA-94jim * r112728 zc.recipe.rhrc/ Cleaned up trailing whitespace.18:02
fdrakeThat release knows how to build itself (using buildout).18:02
kosheven the old .tar.gz would be an improvement18:03
TheJesterSo let me rephrase the entire argument into a simple question. Why isn't there a source tarball that works?18:03
koshit is just so complicated to get it working now18:03
koshand more tools to learn18:03
fdrakekosh: That's what zc.sourcerelease creates.18:03
fdrakeAnd it Just Works.18:03
TheJesterAnd why isn't zc using ot to make one? d8)18:03
koshwhere is that documented at? all I found on installing zope 2.12 was a buildout thing and an easy_install thing18:04
fdrakeTheJester: Why isn't ZC using zc.sourcerelease to make tarballs?  I think I just told you that's exactly what we do.18:04
koshthe buildout one works to create something not entirely unlike an older release, the easy_instlal one won't upgrade an older release18:05
koshfdrake: so where can we get that one at? I have not seen it on or zope2.zope.org18:05
koshfdrake: for 2.12 it does not even mention that18:05
TheJesterYes that would be my next question d8)18:05
fdrakeZC doesn't release Zope 2 at all.18:05
fdrakeThe Zope Foundation folks who work on Zope 2 will have to answer that.18:06
aphorWow. Just for perspective, this is not unlike the Python 3 changes affecting frameworks like Zope.18:06
*** r0ver has joined #zope18:06
aphor.. or Zope 3 affecting Plone.18:06
koshit just seems like it is so darn complicated now18:06
koshno more just download the tgz, python install to build it18:07
*** zagy has joined #zope18:07
koshnow it is learning buildout, upgrading the zopectl and runzope scripts to poitn to the new install etc18:07
aphorMaybe it only *seemed* simple because stuff was not getting fixed/improved?18:07
koshzope 2.0 through 2.10 where getting improved, and they all had simple tgz releases18:08
aphorNobody has time to keep track of all the moving parts in an actively developed codebase, but everyone wants their bugs fixed.18:08
*** smita has joined #zope18:08
TheJesterNobody is doing QA on large projects what?18:09
*** zagy1 has joined #zope18:09
aphorTheJester: keep digging. You're getting to the heart of it.18:09
TheJesterWhere do you work, because, I don't want to work there18:09
koshsomeone must be doing the work since zope has a tiny fraction of security issues of other systems18:10
koshand I have not had it crash on me in a VERY long time18:10
koshor memory leak etc18:10
TheJesteraphor says that's luck if you just used tar and setup.py18:10
TheJesterbuyt if you used easy_install that really fixed the bugs18:10
aphorTheJester: I work for Bank of America. I have to be very accomodating to bad software practices, and zc.buildout is comparatively nice.18:12
koshI don't care how it is developed, I just wish there was a tgz install also18:12
*** zagy has quit IRC18:12
aphorkosh: I suppose you also want someone to support it for free?18:12
* TheJester backs away18:12
aphorkosh: I'll also guess you hate being told "just upgrade" when you have a bug/problem?18:13
TheJesteraphor: I'm going to guess you haven't worked at BoA very long18:13
TheJesteraphor: since banks are pathalogically slow at upgrading anything18:13
aphorTheJester: I have been there for ~5 years18:14
aphorBanks upgrade at a glacial pace.18:14
TheJesterSo I guess when you tell them to "just upgrade" they get right on it18:15
koshno I don't expect free support18:15
aphorI only get involved when the compulsion to do something is already there.18:15
koshbut making systems far harder to install is unlikely to help get more people to use it long term18:15
TheJesterYeah I don't see how getting a tarball implies all this other crap18:15
koshI have been helping people with zope 2 for a long time and I have also backported fixes18:15
TheJesterLike support and bugs and qa18:16
aphorkosh: You have a valid point about the regression of install process.18:16
TheJesterEsp since fdrake says theey do that anyway18:16
CIA-94jens 2.2 * r112729 Products.CMFCore/Products/CMFCore/tests/ - fix test setup to account for manage_propertiesForm changes18:16
CIA-94jens * r112730 Products.CMFCore/Products/CMFCore/tests/ - fix test setup to account for manage_propertiesForm changes18:16
aphorkosh: it's also important to have a way to minimize upgrades to control the change.18:17
aphorSay you have a running zope, and you change your custom package or install something new and it exposes a bug in another package.18:17
TheJesterThat's why god invented version numbers18:17
*** Theuni1 has quit IRC18:18
aphorThe old way had Zope releases ~2 years apart. You had to patch and hope you weren't painting yourself in a corner if you wanted you bug fixed.18:18
koshI am not saying that eggs are bad to develop with18:18
TheJesterIf you want a standalone non-interacting-with-other-software you make a PBI18:18
TheJesterOr you virtualise your environment (properly)18:18
koshI am just saying that regardless of what tools are used to develop with that when a new version is announced that some tool also turn that into a standalone tgz release18:19
aphorIs that what you want?18:19
TheJesterWhat does that have to do with anything18:19
TheJesterAfter runing easy_install or wtf18:19
TheJesterYou get .py or .pyc put on your disk18:19
TheJesterHow is that different when you use tar + ?18:19
koshI am not saying to change the development at all18:20
koshI am saying that when a release is done make a single tgz out of it18:20
aphorTheJester: bundling is not necessary prior to install time with buildout.18:20
TheJesterThat's our complaint18:20
aphorSo are we familiar with math combinations?18:21
TheJesterThis is getting ridiculous18:21
aphorHow many possible versions of a running Zope system for all components released in the last 6 months?18:22
aphorHow do we prune that combinatorial explosion to a manageable set of versions?18:22
TheJesterThat's irrelevant18:22
TheJesterWhen the components are bundled18:23
*** MatthewWilkes has joined #zope18:23
aphorWhat goes in your hypothetical old-school tarball?18:23
TheJesterHow is it hypothetical?18:23
aphorYou have to guess what your user base wants.18:23
TheJesterI have 10 years of actual tarballs18:23
aphorDo you have such a tarball today?18:23
koshI looked at a buildout.cfg it has a big list of all the stuff that is part of zope 2.12.618:23
TheJesterHow many do you want?18:23
aphor.. with Today's Zope?18:24
koshwhy can't that all be stuck into a sincel zope 2.12.6.tar.gz?18:24
koshso one file to download and a normal install process18:24
TheJesterApparently that's "too hard"18:24
TheJesterFor some reason18:24
TheJesterThat eludes me and you18:24
aphorYou missed the huge debates about how Zope is too big and too monolithic.18:24
fdrakeI suspect that it's more "not interesting" for those who are being asked to build such things.18:25
fdrakeThey clearly don't need it.18:25
aphor... how Zope hurts develpers' heads and Django has a pony.18:25
TheJestermonolithic has nothing to do with distribution18:25
fdrakeThere's nothing stopping you from building one, since you know what you're looking for.18:25
shen-longyeah, buildout and your own egg cache is the way to go18:26
shen-longor tarball if that's what you want18:26
aphorTheJester: canning stuff that way allows/encourages module interdependency in an unhealty way.18:26
shen-longI'd rather decisions not be made for me18:26
TheJesteraphor: at least you can get the software installed18:26
aphorHey, Plone publishes buildout version.cfg files.18:26
TheJesterlet's review the number of people who come in here with buildout plone issues d8)18:27
koshwe don't have that much time18:27
TheJesterBut, I'm familar with combinations!18:27
MatthewWilkesIt's currently 'GUARDED'18:28
TheJesterwhy would I ever install that?18:28
aphorIn case it's not clear, I'm not trying to dismiss your concerns, and I agree that there is a problem with buildout.18:28
shen-longMatthewWilkes, I had no idea about that18:28
TheJesterWe don't care about buildout... we just want the "traditional" distribution, which apparently can be done using a readily available tool...18:29
shen-longyeah, I mean, how often have you been trying to get something done on a weekend, and some egg has a dependency on a developer's site, and it's down, and you're screwed from running the buildout18:29
koshhonestly if there where an easy way to upgrade to a newer version of zope that would probably deal with the issue for me18:29
koshbut it took a very long time to figure out all of these tools just to upgrade from 2.12.1 to 2.12.618:29
koshand there are NO upgrade instructions I could fine18:29
aphorThat's great stuff.18:30
shen-longmaybe I'm missing an issue here, but can't you just use the upgraded egg, and change your versions accordingly ?18:30
cwarner_kosh: true18:30
aphorThe suggestion of just scrapping buildout sounds like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.18:30
cwarner_kosh: i'd say there is a problem with things just changing on a whim with no proper documentation but it's been like that forever18:30
koshfor a very long time it was just a tgz file and python install would build everything in it18:31
cwarner_kosh: it's not going to readily change over night however i'd recommend publishing a how-to on steps you took to get where you are..18:31
aphorwhy not do a [bundle] recipe in buildout that grabs conservatively selected version sets and numbers them?18:32
*** mcdonc__ has quit IRC18:33
*** alecm has joined #zope18:33
aphorFWIW: this debate sounds awfully familiar with the Linux RHEL/Fedora split user population.18:34
TheJesterSo basically ther isn't anything that is "zope 2"18:35
aphorspeaking of which.. I have to go solve a problem with RHEL packaging dependency problems.18:36
TheJesterExxcept some meta-data18:36
aphorTheJester: very meta18:36
* TheJester waits for the "hahaha now you're all really running zope3/bluebream" email18:36
koshwell I would have to learn how bundle even works with buildout18:37
koshuntil today I had never even touched buildout18:37
TheJesterYou go first18:37
aphor... now that you have discovered the secret plan PREPARE TO DIE!18:37
TheJesterI'll visit you in the looney bin18:37
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli18:37
aphor[bundle] was a hypothetical suggestion. AFAIK it isn't implemented.18:38
aphorI agree though, Zope SHOULD publish known good version files.18:39
koshthey do already, that is what a 2.12.6 release is18:40
koshI only use zope 2 with exactly the files it comes with18:40
koshI don't upgrade any packages in it18:41
cwarner_kosh: there is a lot of documentation around the web in regards to buildout but you should write down the steps you took if you feel they will be useful18:41
*** mcdonc has joined #zope18:41
*** tisto has quit IRC18:41
*** hever has joined #zope18:43
koshI did many google searches on how to upgrade zope 2.12 and nothing very useful came up18:43
aphorNow you're here, and instead of asking how to upgrade zope 2.12 you have lost focus and are ranting about having to ask.18:45
*** neo|4D has quit IRC18:45
aphorkosh: you deserve to get your money back.18:45
TheJesteryeah kosh you n00b18:45
koshactually I did ask, nobody around seemed to know so I figured it out18:46
koshit annoys me that ways of doing things which have worked for close to 10 years suddenly don't work and the new procedures are not documented18:46
TheJesterIt sucks you can't do an offline install either18:47
bigkevmcdwho's offline these days?!18:47
bigkevmcdand you probably can actually18:47
TheJestermost of my VMs18:47
TheJesterwhere I test stuff18:47
bigkevmcdwe build from a set of downloaded deps18:47
TheJesterYou can't if it's going to go download crap18:47
TheJesterThat's not a big drama though18:49
TheJesterJust won't use those version d8)18:49
TheJesterActually I only have Zope tarballs from 2.3.018:51
TheJesterI seem to hav elost the pre 2.3 ones18:52
CIA-94jim * r112731 zc.recipe.rhrc/ (4 files in 2 dirs):18:52
CIA-94New Feature18:52
CIA-94A new independent-processes option causes multiple processes to be18:52
CIA-94restarted independently, rather then stoping all of the and the18:52
CIA-94starting all of them.18:52
CIA-94jim 1.2.0 * r112732 zc.recipe.rhrc/trunk: tag18:52
CIA-94jim 1.2.0 * r112733 zc.recipe.rhrc/ Updated version.18:52
CIA-94jim * r112734 zc.recipe.rhrc/README.txt: Fixed.18:52
CIA-94jim 1.2.0 * r112735 zc.recipe.rhrc/trunk: oops18:52
CIA-94jim * r112736 /zc.recipe.rhrc/tags/1.3.0: tag18:52
CIA-94jim 1.3.0 * r112737 zc.recipe.rhrc/ Updated version.18:52
CIA-94jim * r112738 zc.recipe.rhrc/ Updated version.18:52
CIA-94jim * r112739 zc.recipe.rhrc/README.txt: typo18:52
aphorTheJester buildout offline is  -o18:52
TheJesterWhen Zope was only 1.7M d8)18:52
TheJesteraphor: I don't really care about commands that aren't going to work d8)18:53
aphorTheJester: it breaks because you don't have all of your dependencies.18:53
TheJesterIt breaks because they didn't come in the box d8)18:54
TheJesterPython's tagline used to be "Batteries included"18:54
aphorTheJester: then someone got pissed because they couldn't get pr0nlib in core ditro.18:55
*** redir has quit IRC18:57
*** MJ has quit IRC18:59
*** alvaro has joined #zope19:01
koshsometimes I want to shoot the bot19:03
CIA-94janwijbrand * r112740 zope.password/ (src/zope/password/ CHANGES.txt): encode encoded_password to ascii before passing it to urlsafe_b64decode#19:03
*** srichter has joined #zope19:03
TheJesterDoes banning a non-opped entity stop it from talking?19:04
TheJesterThat would be a nice way to make it shut up during meetings19:05
TheJesterI'm tempted to get rid of it19:05
TheJesterAnyone who wanted to follow check-ins would probably already be doing it19:05
*** redir has joined #zope19:07
MatthewWilkesTheJester: Yeah, freenode also allows you to set someone +q to quiet them19:07
TheJesterthat would be easier yeah19:08
*** Theuni1 has joined #zope19:09
TheJesterIf people actually want the checkins spewed here, but, I'm not sure that it's really that useful here19:09
TheJesterperhaps I should kick ban it until the owner shows up d8)19:11
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away19:11
*** runyaga has quit IRC19:11
Theuni1TheJester: i think tres added those19:12
*** r0ver has left #zope19:12
Theuni1i actually thought they're annoying initially, but then again i don't mind them that much19:12
TheJesterWell I'm missing people asking for help coz it's scrolling them out of the window d8)19:13
TheJesterWhen I look her eit's just a page full of checkin messages19:13
*** mgedmin has quit IRC19:14
Theuni1Ah. Haven't thought of that. That's actually stupid.19:14
Theuni1maybe another channel for the bots then? #zope-babble19:14
TheJesterI suggested zope-status or zope-dev19:14
*** ignas has quit IRC19:15
*** alvaro is now known as Guest7482119:15
*** digilord has joined #zope19:16
Theuni1i'd rather have another channel for automated messages than another one for developers. I think consolidating the places where people talkt to each other is worthwhile. Not?19:18
TheJesterI'm not hung up on the name d8)19:18
TheJesterI whole-heartedly support the concept though d8)19:21
Theuni1you might wanna mail tres seaver about this, i think he can do something about it19:22
Theuni1also, we should update the status line of this channel a bit and point over there.19:22
TheJesterover where? d8)19:23
TheJesterNormally someone was updating the topic19:23
TheJesterI updated it one day because someone wanted the transcript URL19:23
Theuni1The transcript URLs live in the summaries that I send to the mailinglist. Also, it's an old transcript by now.19:24
TheJestergiven we're at 2.12.6 apparently...19:24
Theuni1TheJester: over to the place that tres moves the bot if you figure this out with him :)19:24
TheJesterwhat mailing list getts the summaries?19:25
*** TheJester changes topic to " please paste your error traceback at please mention zope version when asking questions - public Wave"19:26
TheJesterApprently releases don't go to zope-announce any more19:27
TheJesterOr I missed it19:27
TheJesterwhich is probably mor elikely19:27
*** alvaro_ has joined #zope19:29
*** Guest74821 has quit IRC19:29
*** lucmult has joined #zope19:31
*** lucmult has left #zope19:31
*** thetet has quit IRC19:31
*** f10w has quit IRC19:37
*** f10w has joined #zope19:40
*** giampaolo has joined #zope19:42
*** fredvd has joined #zope19:48
*** ccomb has quit IRC19:54
*** Vejeta``` has joined #zope19:55
*** Theuni1 has quit IRC19:56
*** Vejeta`` has quit IRC19:57
*** fredvd has quit IRC19:58
*** menesis has quit IRC19:58
*** Vejeta``` is now known as Vejeta20:03
*** Vejeta has quit IRC20:03
*** Vejeta has joined #zope20:03
*** Theuni1 has joined #zope20:03
*** Theuni1 has quit IRC20:09
*** touff has joined #zope20:13
*** regebro has quit IRC20:15
*** regebro has joined #zope20:15
*** eperez has quit IRC20:15
*** hever has quit IRC20:16
*** agroszer_ has joined #zope20:26
*** agroszer has quit IRC20:26
*** touff has quit IRC20:29
*** evilbungle has quit IRC20:33
*** ignas has joined #zope20:33 1.0b2 (PyPI recent updates)
*** SpankyFromBRC has joined #zope20:37
*** neo|4D has joined #zope20:47
*** brguedes has quit IRC20:50
*** menesis has joined #zope20:52
*** RichardBarrell has quit IRC20:58
*** digilord has quit IRC21:03
*** emrojo has quit IRC21:05
*** teix has left #zope21:10
*** pepeu has quit IRC21:21
*** srichter has quit IRC21:37
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli21:43
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope21:43
*** neo|4D has quit IRC21:47
*** mr_jolly has left #zope21:51
*** d2m1 has joined #zope21:51
*** d2m has quit IRC21:52
*** sim_sim has quit IRC21:55
*** lucmult1 has joined #zope21:58
*** lucmult1 has left #zope21:59
CIA-94jim * r112741 zc.zlibstorage/ distutils hurts.22:02
CIA-94jim * r112742 zc.zlibstorage/src/zc/zlibstorage/README.txt: distutils hurts.22:02
CIA-94jim * r112743 /zc.zlibstorage/tags/0.1.1: tag22:02
CIA-94jim 0.1.1 * r112744 zc.zlibstorage/ distutils hurts.22:02
*** fredvd has joined #zope22:09
*** fredvd|sport has joined #zope22:09
TheJesterDo you come in compact too?22:10
*** fredvd has quit IRC22:14
*** neo|4D has joined #zope22:23
*** daMaestro has joined #zope22:24
*** mcdonc has quit IRC22:32
*** mcdonc has joined #zope22:38
*** illsci has joined #zope22:38
illsciHi.  I'm looking for zope ZConfig rpms....22:39
illsciim trying to see if they live in redhat epel22:39
illsciany idea what the name of python-ZConfig or the rpm that might have ZConfig python module in22:39
*** aaronv has quit IRC22:42
TheJesterIt sbhould be inside Zope intself22:42
TheJesterIt's not a seperate package22:43
TheJesterOr wasn't22:43
TheJestercheck there maybe22:44
TheJesterBut if  yo uhave zope installed it should already be in there22:45
TheJesterIf you don't (and don't want to), I have no idea d8)22:46
illscithat was it... the zope rpm22:46
*** illsci has left #zope22:46
*** agroszer_ has quit IRC23:14
*** alecm has quit IRC23:21
*** srichter has joined #zope23:32
*** redir has quit IRC23:44

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!