| CIA-94 | achapman * r113961 /ZODB/branches/3.9.0b5-patched: - branch for ZODB with bigger bucketswq | 00:00 |
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| minskmaz | k | 00:14 |
| CIA-94 | achapman 3.9.0b5-patched * r113962 ZODB/setup.py: - munge version | 00:16 |
| CIA-94 | achapman 3.9.0b5-patched * r113963 ZODB/src/BTrees/ (_LOBTree.c _OLBTree.c): - apply patch | 00:16 |
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| planetzopebot | collective.contacts 1.4.5 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/collective.contacts/1.4.5 | 03:04 |
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| planetzopebot | Thinking about the structure of the book (ZODB Documentation) http://zodbdocs.blogspot.com/2010/06/thinking-about-structure-of-book.html | 06:34 |
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| CIA-94 | andreasjung * r113964 zopyx.versioning/zopyx/versioning/ (interfaces.py README.txt): updated | 06:47 |
| CIA-94 | andreasjung * r113965 zopyx.versioning/zopyx/versioning/README.txt: typo | 06:47 |
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| CIA-94 | astoon * r113966 /bluebream/website/docs/v1.0/introduction.rst: added translations section into introduction | 10:06 |
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| CIA-94 | MatthewWilkes * r113967 zope.sendmail/src/zope/sendmail/tests/test_delivery.py: | 13:36 |
| CIA-94 | Test that a broken mailer implementation's exceptions don't abort transactions | 13:36 |
| CIA-94 | if they happen too late. Add tests for a new 'vote' method that allows a mailer | 13:36 |
| CIA-94 | to tell the delivery implementation that it knows it will be unable to proceed. | 13:36 |
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| CIA-94 | jim * r113968 /Sandbox/J1m/dojoapibrowser: Utilities to fetch and display dojo API reference material. | 14:21 |
| CIA-94 | jim * r113969 /Sandbox/J1m/dojoapibrowser/ (api.js buildout.cfg index.html fetch.py): initial version | 14:21 |
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| _mup_ | Bug #599744 was filed: error when no compiled _zope_security_checker.c is available and ZOPE_WATCH_CHECKERS is set <zope.security:New> <https://launchpad.net/bugs/599744> | 14:29 |
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| CIA-94 | janwijbrand * r113970 gocept.selenium/ (src/gocept/selenium/static static.cfg CHANGES.txt): merge -r 113445:113449 svn+ssh://svn.zope.org/repos/main/gocept.selenium/branches/jw-staticfiles-testlayer2 | 14:55 |
| CIA-94 | janwijbrand * r113971 /gocept.selenium/branches/jw-staticfiles-testlayer2: remove merged branch | 14:55 |
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| CIA-94 | MatthewWilkes * r113972 zope.sendmail/ (5 files in 2 dirs): | 15:16 |
| CIA-94 | Add a vote method the the mailer interface and implement it for SMTPMailer. | 15:16 |
| CIA-94 | Attempts to create the connection and HELO while in transaction vote rather than | 15:16 |
| CIA-94 | finish, so exceptions in making the connection will abort the current | 15:16 |
| CIA-94 | transaction safely. | 15:16 |
| CIA-94 | The vote method needs to be provided to the MailDataManager, but if a Mailer implementation doesn't provide one DirectMailDelivery will provide a noop replacement and make a deprecation warning. | 15:16 |
| CIA-94 | Bump version to 3.8 branch | 15:16 |
| CIA-94 | janwijbrand * r113973 gocept.selenium/setup.py: bump the version to 0.5 for the future release | 15:16 |
| CIA-94 | adamg * r113974 /Sandbox/adamg/zope.wineggbuilder/trunk/master.cfg: more packages to test | 15:16 |
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| CIA-94 | adamg * r113975 zope.component/ (. /buildout.cfg): added coverage parts to buildout.cfg | 15:49 |
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| planetzopebot | Products.PloneGetPaid 0.10.1 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Products.PloneGetPaid/0.10.1 | 16:04 |
| planetzopebot | getpaid.core 0.9.1 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/getpaid.core/0.9.1 | 16:04 |
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| CIA-94 | charlie_x * r113976 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/profiles/views_support/actions.xml: Trailing whitespace removed. | 17:18 |
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| CIA-94 | charlie_x * r113977 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/browser/membership/authentication.py: | 17:31 |
| CIA-94 | self.context.request corrected to self.request | 17:31 |
| CIA-94 | Tests required for @@logged_in.html | 17:31 |
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| macsppadic | hello there...a complete noob to zope - wondering if i could ask a query as regards a broken brains object ..and how i could go about removing it | 17:47 |
| macsppadic | is it possible to remove it via the zmi under portal_catalog? | 17:47 |
| Charlie_X | I don't think you can. | 17:48 |
| Charlie_X | brains objects are query results so they are not persistent, I think. I'm not an expert on the ZCatalog, though. | 17:49 |
| macsppadic | hey Charlie_X ...oh dear ..i feared as much | 17:49 |
| macsppadic | thanks for that | 17:50 |
| Charlie_X | You may have something else broken that is causing the error. | 17:50 |
| macsppadic | trying to trace the error via the zmi error log | 17:51 |
| Charlie_X | Better to use debug mode, if possible | 17:51 |
| macsppadic | thanks Charlie_X | 17:52 |
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| * Charlie_X rings the bell | 18:00 | |
| * Charlie_X clears his throat | 18:00 | |
| * Charlie_X looks expectantly at agroszer | 18:01 | |
| * agroszer blinks | 18:01 | |
| Charlie_X | Yes, it's that time again. | 18:01 |
| * agroszer shovels away the pile of code | 18:02 | |
| agroszer | anyone else here, or it's going to be a 1 on 1 | 18:02 |
| agroszer | ? | 18:02 |
| Charlie_X | I'm all screen | 18:02 |
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| Charlie_X | Congratulations on getting the release out of the door. | 18:03 |
| * agroszer looks at the agenda | 18:03 | |
| agroszer | thanks | 18:03 |
| * Charlie_X waves hopefully at dataflake | 18:03 | |
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| dataflake | hi charlie | 18:03 |
| agroszer | hey | 18:03 |
| agroszer | now we're 3 | 18:03 |
| Charlie_X | Indeed. | 18:04 |
| agroszer | what to wrap up with the KGS release? | 18:04 |
| Charlie_X | er, I think that means. Have you anything to add to the announcement | 18:05 |
| agroszer | ehh, one thing | 18:06 |
| agroszer | there's an ANN to make in German | 18:06 |
| agroszer | Linux Enterprise (www.linuxenterprise.de) -- The short announcement must be in German. (If you don't know Germen, get someone who does to do this for you.) | 18:06 |
| agroszer | and I'm not native German | 18:07 |
| agroszer | so who's going to do that? | 18:07 |
| * Charlie_X is being demonstrably not German this week | 18:07 | |
| Charlie_X | Please send an e-mail to the list. | 18:07 |
| dataflake | count me out. zope 3 KGSs are completely un-interesting to me. | 18:07 |
| Charlie_X | My written German isn't good enough but I could help. | 18:07 |
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| agroszer | Charlie_X, I guess it's like translating the first few lines of the ANN | 18:08 |
| dataflake | agroszer: ask stephan richter maybe? | 18:08 |
| Charlie_X | Okay. I can give that a go. As long as it's not the whole hog, especially not in the heat/humidity | 18:09 |
| * Charlie_X is wilting | 18:09 | |
| dataflake | so am i | 18:09 |
| * Charlie_X checks his operating manual: max operating temperature 25°C | 18:09 | |
| agroszer | dataflake, haven't talked to him for ages now, seems like vanished from the scene | 18:09 |
| Charlie_X | agroszer: what are the plans for the next release? 3.5? | 18:10 |
| agroszer | Charlie_X, I thought bluebream takes over | 18:10 |
| dataflake | Charlie_X: there is no zope 3 3.5 | 18:10 |
| agroszer | IOW bluebream is the new zope 3 | 18:10 |
| Charlie_X | Just because people aren't active on a mailing list doesn't mean they are not active. | 18:10 |
| dataflake | agroszer: correct | 18:10 |
| Charlie_X | ah, minor misconception on my behalf. | 18:10 |
| dataflake | Charlie_X: zope 3 is a marketing problem for all of zope. | 18:11 |
| agroszer | maybe one more bugfix or so to be expected | 18:11 |
| dataflake | bluebream is the way out/ | 18:11 |
| Charlie_X | Okay. I'll send you a translation of the introduction to the ML. Maybe a native speaker will deign to correct it, if not: lock and load. | 18:12 |
| Charlie_X | Next. | 18:12 |
| agroszer | ohh, gotta add bluebream tests to winbot | 18:12 |
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| agroszer | Charlie_X, for the record: winbot is testing more and more packages | 18:12 |
| Charlie_X | Thanks agroszer | 18:13 |
| Charlie_X | Zope summit? or Bug day? | 18:13 |
| agroszer | summit | 18:13 |
| agroszer | Theuni should be present... | 18:14 |
| agroszer | I guess this is something like discussing the future of zope | 18:14 |
| * Charlie_X dons his homemade CMF/Repoze hat | 18:14 | |
| Charlie_X | It's still fashionable to do Zope down. But I think Zope projects have a great future. | 18:15 |
| dataflake | of course they do | 18:15 |
| agroszer | as a starter we could look around what others have that we miss | 18:16 |
| Charlie_X | Not more features. | 18:17 |
| mcdonc_ | hello all ;-) | 18:17 |
| dataflake | hi chris | 18:17 |
| Charlie_X | Better explanation of using components to solve your problems | 18:17 |
| agroszer | hey | 18:17 |
| * agroszer counts 4 | 18:17 | |
| Charlie_X | Hi mcdonc_ | 18:17 |
| mcdonc_ | its a quorum | 18:18 |
| MatthewWilkes | agroszer: Personal record? :) | 18:18 |
| Charlie_X | mcdonc_: who, apart from Tres, is coming over in September? | 18:18 |
| agroszer | muhaha | 18:18 |
| mcdonc_ | Charlie_X: i am supposed to | 18:18 |
| Charlie_X | Attendance is always better when Theuni isn't here! :-P | 18:18 |
| mcdonc_ | i didnt know tres was going | 18:19 |
| Charlie_X | Cool. So the bicycle toolkit will be on the agenda? | 18:19 |
| Charlie_X | I'm sure he told me he was coming. But I would expect you to know better. | 18:19 |
| mcdonc_ | it's the only sane agenda ;-) | 18:19 |
| mcdonc_ | dataflake: long time no see, you been busy eh | 18:20 |
| Charlie_X | I wanted to discuss with him at the Oil Slick Sprint whether I should do a CMF on Repoze or repoze.cmfish presentation | 18:20 |
| Charlie_X | s/repoze/BFG | 18:20 |
| mcdonc_ | hehe oil slick sprint | 18:21 |
| Charlie_X | Want t-shirts doing? | 18:21 |
| agroszer | that's rather a sad story if you mean the mexican one | 18:21 |
| dataflake | mcdonc_: yup, busy with work | 18:21 |
| mcdonc_ | t-shirts would be good ;-) | 18:21 |
| Charlie_X | Noted. I'll just need sizes. | 18:22 |
| mcdonc_ | heh, as if there would be any smalls | 18:22 |
| dataflake | mcdonc_: why, thought you were dainty now ;-) | 18:23 |
| Charlie_X | "svelte" isn't the word | 18:24 |
| dataflake | i love that word | 18:24 |
| Charlie_X | mcdonc_: have you got anything planned for the summt? or the conference? | 18:25 |
| Charlie_X | We really need to get the RFP out. | 18:25 |
| Charlie_X | Hanno is having his own meeting on the mailing list. | 18:26 |
| dataflake | looks like it | 18:26 |
| * Charlie_X tosses in the bone of certification | 18:28 | |
| agroszer | what sort of cert? | 18:28 |
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| Charlie_X | at the recent DZUG talk on BFG we discussed the degree of testing in zope and how unusual that is. | 18:29 |
| Charlie_X | I would like to see some form of Python and or Zope certification as an indication of the quality of the software. I don't think we realise how much better it is than the competition. | 18:30 |
| dataflake | theuni knows all about certifications ;-) | 18:30 |
| agroszer | yup | 18:30 |
| Charlie_X | Good. | 18:30 |
| agroszer | we could publish test coverage | 18:30 |
| agroszer | but test coverage is not the whole story | 18:31 |
| CIA-94 | tlotze * r113978 gocept.selenium/static.cfg: set up the tests for the static stuff according to the ZTK KGS | 18:31 |
| Charlie_X | I'm thinking along the lines of an "approved" process that could possibly be ISO certified. | 18:31 |
| dataflake | good luck... | 18:31 |
| agroszer | waaah | 18:31 |
| agroszer | you're an optimist | 18:32 |
| agroszer | talk to Theuni, he tried this once | 18:32 |
| Charlie_X | It's not that difficult. The talk at last's Plone conference was an eye-opener. | 18:32 |
| Charlie_X | It takes time and energy. | 18:33 |
| Charlie_X | oops, time is up. I have a question on svn. | 18:33 |
| agroszer | shoot | 18:33 |
| Charlie_X | I lost the history and properties of some files in a reorganisation at the weekend. Is there an easy way to restore them? | 18:34 |
| * Charlie_X hangs his head in shame | 18:35 | |
| agroszer | how lost? | 18:35 |
| Charlie_X | svn del file_name_goes here && svn add file_name_goes here | 18:35 |
| mcdonc_ | Charlie_X: i'm expecting to sprint on cms'y stuff at the oil slick sprint | 18:35 |
| agroszer | eeek | 18:36 |
| mcdonc_ | i had hoped to have something built by now with cms basics but it has not yet happened | 18:36 |
| agroszer | Charlie_X, is it an own repo? | 18:36 |
| mcdonc_ | actually zope's testing culture is spreading | 18:36 |
| Charlie_X | Nope, Products.CMFDefault | 18:36 |
| Charlie_X | D Products.CMFDefault/trunk/Products/CMFDefault/browser/utils.py | 18:37 |
| Charlie_X | A Products.CMFDefault/trunk/Products/CMFDefault/browser/utils.py | 18:37 |
| agroszer | gaah | 18:37 |
| agroszer | I'd do an experiment in a sandbox | 18:37 |
| mcdonc_ | at least the other web frameworks tend to do good testing of new features (if not old ones) | 18:37 |
| agroszer | do the same and then try to revert | 18:37 |
| Charlie_X | mcdonc_: Of course, it's spreading. Testing is pretty common in the Python world. But check out some other projects. | 18:37 |
| mcdonc_ | i actually don't use packages that don't have good test coverage | 18:38 |
| mcdonc_ | this is also probably why i write a lot of software ;-) | 18:38 |
| agroszer | :-D | 18:38 |
| Charlie_X | That approach needs more publicity. | 18:39 |
| mcdonc_ | hard to publicize without sounding smug and self-satisfied ;-) | 18:39 |
| Charlie_X | Typical developer talk. Sound impressed and confident. | 18:40 |
| Charlie_X | "It's tested!" | 18:40 |
| mgedmin | WorksOnMyMachine(TM) | 18:41 |
| mcdonc_ | i think fundamentally a lot of people don't know how to write tests.. in particular they don't know how to write a test suite that gets high code coverage | 18:41 |
| * Charlie_X is currently suffering with getSecurityManager().checkPermission(permission, obj) on his machine | 18:41 | |
| mcdonc_ | mostly because they don't know the difference between integration testing and unit testing | 18:41 |
| Charlie_X | mcdonc_: you are right and that is a USP | 18:42 |
| agroszer | and writing tests is sometimes a real PIA | 18:42 |
| Charlie_X | agroszer: the BFG approach of writing the documentation helps a bit in that respect. | 18:42 |
| mcdonc_ | what does "USP" mean? | 18:42 |
| Charlie_X | I think test writing is one of those things that you need to get the hang of and feel for how long it takes. | 18:43 |
| agroszer | I ordered the book | 18:43 |
| Charlie_X | "unique selling point" | 18:43 |
| Charlie_X | mcdonc_: a company I know selling a CMS does not have a testing culture at all. | 18:44 |
| mcdonc_ | they probably implement features very quickly | 18:45 |
| Charlie_X | The time saved by having tests needs to be seen as important as the speed of the application. | 18:45 |
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| Charlie_X | They are not that fast. They aren't bad either. But the problems that result from not having automated tests for known errors crop up often enough. | 18:46 |
| agroszer | not to mention refactorings | 18:46 |
| Charlie_X | So, wear a "It's tested!" badge with pride. | 18:47 |
| agroszer | publish it, should be easy with bots | 18:47 |
| Charlie_X | Badge for the websites. | 18:48 |
| agroszer | saying "we're well tested" is ... | 18:48 |
| Charlie_X | Tag for the packages. | 18:48 |
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| agroszer | means e.g. for java, having 20% or so coverage | 18:48 |
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| agroszer | so be careful with "well tested" | 18:49 |
| agroszer | bzw "good coverage" | 18:49 |
| mcdonc_ | i think probably it depends what you're writing a little bit | 18:50 |
| mcdonc_ | for frameworky bits, i think all testing is justified | 18:50 |
| mcdonc_ | for application-y bits, especially for features that have a sell-by date (like some interactive map of an oil spill, say), maybe not as much | 18:51 |
| mcdonc_ | (the app is definitely not gonna last as long as the oil spill) | 18:51 |
| TheJester | Unless of course you're using the map before making a public statement as to how bad the spill will be d8) | 18:51 |
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| Charlie_X | Would it be conceivable to have 100% test coverage as future requirement for the ZTK? Speaking that is, at someone who is still struggling to get to grips with testing. | 18:51 |
| TheJester | hahaha | 18:52 |
| TheJester | 100% | 18:52 |
| TheJester | I'll just wait while you cycle over every combination of values possible to put into each method... | 18:52 |
| Charlie_X | morning TheJester | 18:52 |
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| TheJester | Testing has to be definition be incomplete | 18:53 |
| TheJester | ^by | 18:53 |
| TheJester | You try to test 'classes' of inputs | 18:53 |
| TheJester | So not "every value" but "less than zero, zero, more than zero" | 18:53 |
| TheJester | as an example | 18:54 |
| TheJester | Unless of course you can "prove" correctness... | 18:54 |
| Charlie_X | I understand that 100% testing != totally reliable | 18:54 |
| TheJester | 100% != possible d8) | 18:54 |
| TheJester | For anything non-trivial | 18:55 |
| Charlie_X | I'm thinking more along the lines - do I have 100% coverage of methods? | 18:55 |
| TheJester | quantity over quality ? | 18:55 |
| TheJester | Whoever crashes with the most tests wins? | 18:55 |
| TheJester | Actually that'd be a great t-shirt d8) | 18:56 |
| Charlie_X | That's a risk but I don't think it's necessary outcome. | 18:56 |
| TheJester | Bugs are inevitable, unless as I say, you've gone to the trouble to prove correctness | 18:56 |
| TheJester | Which is a much harder task d8) | 18:56 |
| mcdonc_ | i think 100% statement coverage is a reasonable goal; required but not sufficient | 18:56 |
| mcdonc_ | (at least for things you care about using again) | 18:57 |
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| Charlie_X | TheJester: I don't seek to imply 100 % test coverage == no bugs. | 18:57 |
| TheJester | That's why I have dead code at the bottom of every file where the bugs can live | 18:58 |
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| Charlie_X | But adding the coverage metric to the bot tests won't hurt will it? | 18:58 |
| TheJester | I should put it at the top, but, the bugs like to go where they have more scope | 18:59 |
| Charlie_X | hehe | 18:59 |
| mcdonc_ | 100% statement coverage is just a nice, objective metric that is a prerequisite for actually testing the most common results from a set of inputs | 18:59 |
| mcdonc_ | so if you want your code to "be tested", 100% statement coverage is basically the least you can do | 18:59 |
| TheJester | that'll be interesting to see | 19:00 |
| TheJester | including those statements that are in place to handle errors | 19:00 |
| TheJester | and the ones you wrote to do the testing... | 19:00 |
| mcdonc_ | ? | 19:00 |
| TheJester | If every line of code needs to be tested, then the test code you just wrote needs to be tested... d8) | 19:01 |
| Charlie_X | mcdonc_: I agree. I've been working on a "simple" port of the CMF join_form to a view and it's struck me that, although the code is simple enough (and I think the CMF code is of a very high standard), the port is difficult because of the missing objectives. If I had the objectives it would be easier to write the tests and the port. | 19:01 |
| mcdonc_ | sure, might as well never test anything then | 19:01 |
| TheJester | I'm just saying that 100% statement coverage is probably more marketing than anything useful d8) | 19:02 |
| mcdonc_ | uh huh | 19:02 |
| TheJester | as a "line" as opposed to an objective | 19:02 |
| Charlie_X | TheJester: I don't agree | 19:02 |
| CIA-94 | MatthewWilkes * r113979 Zope/setup.py: I want to use zope.deprecation and it's in the toolkit so let's bring it in. | 19:02 |
| mcdonc_ | but you know.. if you actually *are* trying to test everything, you wind up with it as a side effect | 19:02 |
| Charlie_X | Testing requires you to think more about what you are trying to do. | 19:03 |
| mcdonc_ | at least if you go through and whack out all the dead code | 19:03 |
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| TheJester | Leave my dead code alone | 19:03 |
| TheJester | It's not hurting you, and it doesn't smell that much | 19:03 |
| Charlie_X | And tests are essential when refactoring. | 19:03 |
| mcdonc_ | necrocodia | 19:03 |
| Charlie_X | Cool name for a band. | 19:03 |
| planetzopebot | quintagroup.plonecomments 4.1.4 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/quintagroup.plonecomments/4.1.4 | 19:04 |
| planetzopebot | test (ZODB Documentation) http://zodbdocs.blogspot.com/2010/06/test.html | 19:04 |
| mcdonc_ | so i agree that 100% coverage is not very useful as a goal | 19:04 |
| Charlie_X | But as a metric? | 19:05 |
| mcdonc_ | if you do care about testing "everything" (or at least as much as that's possible), it ends up being necessary | 19:05 |
| TheJester | unit testing should give you 100% coverage, but, those isolation tests don't really give you much once you start plugging it into other stuff | 19:05 |
| mcdonc_ | Charlie_X: the metric is good because it gives humans an objective thing to shoot for, and if they get there, they *usually* have done more reasonable a job of testing than if they hadnt' | 19:06 |
| TheJester | All you can really say is "I washed it and it didn't shrink" | 19:06 |
| mcdonc_ | but by itself it doesn't really signify much | 19:06 |
| mcdonc_ | yeah, you need integration tests *too* | 19:06 |
| TheJester | exactly | 19:07 |
| TheJester | That's harder, because it involves paths | 19:07 |
| mcdonc_ | deform has 100% unit test coverage, but also has selenium tests for each scenario | 19:07 |
| Charlie_X | Okay. So including it as a metric may be of psychological benefit. | 19:07 |
| mcdonc_ | that's because if it breaks, i have to *talk* to someone ;-) | 19:07 |
| TheJester | It's of dubious marketing value d8) | 19:07 |
| mcdonc_ | it's excellent marketing | 19:07 |
| mcdonc_ | and excellent psychological value | 19:08 |
| TheJester | The way OpenBSD claimed no exploits in base, and then continued to refine base and then exploit as they were exploited? d8) | 19:08 |
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| mcdonc_ | since when did marketing have anything to do with truth? | 19:09 |
| Charlie_X | TheJester: I think you are bit too cynical | 19:09 |
| TheJester | If you're putting numbers like 100% on things, I think you kind of look bad when shit breaks d8) | 19:09 |
| mcdonc_ | *objective* truth even | 19:09 |
| TheJester | heh | 19:09 |
| mcdonc_ | i write "framework" code as if the discovery of a bug or a misunderstanding of documentation would mean i had to talk to chris withers | 19:11 |
| Charlie_X | When shit breaks you look bad. You look foolish when your claims are found to be false. But that doesn't necessarily nullify them entirely. | 19:11 |
| TheJester | haha | 19:11 |
| mcdonc_ | this is a way better motivator than testing metrics ;-) | 19:11 |
| TheJester | Indeed | 19:11 |
| Charlie_X | As mcdonc_ says - if testing is of no value, don't bother testing. | 19:11 |
| Charlie_X | The question is - is the value subjective? | 19:12 |
| TheJester | I'm not saying it's of no value, simply that making grand statements isn't d8) | 19:12 |
| mcdonc_ | the value is subjective yup | 19:12 |
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| Charlie_X | I don't anyone is making grand statements even though there is obviously marketing value in such statements. | 19:13 |
| mcdonc_ | space shuttle tests are more valuable than tv tuner tests et | 19:13 |
| Charlie_X | ^think | 19:13 |
| mcdonc_ | the value of the 100% test mantra is like any other mantra | 19:13 |
| mcdonc_ | people need goals | 19:13 |
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| mcdonc_ | unambiguous goals | 19:14 |
| Charlie_X | Yes. | 19:14 |
| TheJester | I always maintained that anyone that did development should write code for a pacemaker annd then use that code to power their pacemaker for the first year of their job ... | 19:14 |
| TheJester | d8) | 19:14 |
| mcdonc_ | hehe | 19:14 |
| Charlie_X | "he who never made mistakes, never made anything" | 19:14 |
| mcdonc_ | like now we have someone helping us with internal coding here | 19:14 |
| mcdonc_ | he's not really a software development expert or anything | 19:15 |
| mcdonc_ | its really easy to turn him loose and say "do this that and the other thing, and make sure you get 100% test coverage of it" | 19:15 |
| mcdonc_ | there's high value in that | 19:15 |
| mcdonc_ | because otherwise he would test zero of it | 19:15 |
| Charlie_X | Yep. That's good process. | 19:16 |
| Charlie_X | Good process doesn't guarantee good product. But it does help fix problems. | 19:16 |
| mcdonc_ | later on he can figure out when that's appropriate or not | 19:16 |
| mcdonc_ | when the training wheels are off | 19:16 |
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| Charlie_X | I'm certainly not a software expert and I don't find testing comes naturally to me. But I am beginning to appreciate how important it is (for me) | 19:17 |
| CIA-94 | MatthewWilkes * r113980 Zope/src/Products/MailHost/ (MailHost.py mailer.py): Remove the SMTPMailer duplicated from zope.sendmail and make its module a deprecated alias to the equivalent in z.s. | 19:17 |
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| mcdonc_ | i usually use testing as an excuse to read my own code ;-) | 19:18 |
| mcdonc_ | give it like the 4th-over ;-) | 19:18 |
| mcdonc_ | "ah crap, right, that aint gonna work" | 19:18 |
| Charlie_X | Reading and writing are significantly different cognitive processes. | 19:19 |
| * Charlie_X thinks it's time to head for the balcony. | 19:19 | |
| Charlie_X | brb | 19:20 |
| mcdonc_ | testing gives you an excuse to be stupid | 19:20 |
| mcdonc_ | which i am | 19:20 |
| TheJester | Yes, but, you have aversion therapy in the form of CW d8) | 19:21 |
| Charlie_X | Not quite true - it encourages you to work non-intuitively | 19:21 |
| mcdonc_ | there's probably some brainiac who never needs tests | 19:21 |
| mcdonc_ | dude who like can parse semantics out of each line before he presses return in realtime | 19:22 |
| mcdonc_ | and run the code in his head | 19:22 |
| mcdonc_ | and who can also do that when he refactors | 19:22 |
| mcdonc_ | that aint me | 19:22 |
| TheJester | That matters not, unless he wrote the interpretted the compiler that compiled it, the OS and the compiled that compiled the OS and designed the silicon it's running on d8) | 19:22 |
| mcdonc_ | oh but the stuff under you is perfect, you didnt hear? ;-) | 19:22 |
| TheJester | As a victim of the pentium maths bug... | 19:23 |
| TheJester | I actually had intel courier me a new one.. | 19:23 |
| mcdonc_ | an intel courier | 19:23 |
| TheJester | I had to talk to their tech for 45 mins about what I was using it for | 19:23 |
| mcdonc_ | like some dude in an intel shirt | 19:23 |
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| mcdonc_ | with a bag fulla processors? | 19:23 |
| TheJester | Pretty much | 19:23 |
| mcdonc_ | thats awesome | 19:24 |
| mcdonc_ | like the pied piper of cpus | 19:24 |
| TheJester | I found out we have UPS vans here | 19:24 |
| TheJester | Which is surreal | 19:24 |
| TheJester | When one pulls up your driveway | 19:24 |
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| mcdonc_ | dont believe it; you are being watched | 19:25 |
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| TheJester | Oh yeah I know, that's why I sit here and talk about zope and python to fool echelon so they don't break my ruski spy ring | 19:25 |
| TheJester | d8) | 19:26 |
| mcdonc_ | wow, clever | 19:26 |
| TheJester | Though I think my Egyptian handler is toast | 19:26 |
| * TheJester once actually had a (low) security clearance | 19:27 | |
| kosh | hi all | 19:27 |
| TheJester | speaking of sleeper agennts | 19:27 |
| * kosh sets TheJester on fire and hands out marshmallows | 19:28 | |
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| * Charlie_X finds it quite a bit cooler on the balcony | 19:29 | |
| Charlie_X | back again, I think | 19:29 |
| mcdonc_ | so yes, comrades, let us toil towards 100% unit coverage, glory to the state! | 19:31 |
| * TheJester uses the marshmallow so he can proceed to level 4 of the containment facility to defeat the Andromeda Strain | 19:31 | |
| CIA-94 | MatthewWilkes * r113981 Zope/ (setup.py src/Products/MailHost/mailer.py): Use zope.deferredimport instead of zope.deprecated for deprecations. Yay. | 19:31 |
| TheJester | Workers control the means of test production | 19:32 |
| Charlie_X | Right, back to getting my view to work correctly. | 19:33 |
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