IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-06-29

CIA-94achapman * r113961 /ZODB/branches/3.9.0b5-patched: - branch for ZODB with bigger bucketswq00:00
*** hever has joined #zope00:04
*** williamthekid_ has joined #zope00:06
*** jim_SFU has quit IRC00:07
*** williamthekid has quit IRC00:09
*** williamthekid_ is now known as williamthekid00:09
*** mcdonc_ has joined #zope00:13
*** mcdonc has quit IRC00:13
CIA-94achapman 3.9.0b5-patched * r113962 ZODB/ - munge version00:16
CIA-94achapman 3.9.0b5-patched * r113963 ZODB/src/BTrees/ (_LOBTree.c _OLBTree.c): - apply patch00:16
*** alvaro__ has joined #zope00:18
*** alvaro_ has quit IRC00:18
*** vipod has quit IRC00:32
*** aaronv has quit IRC00:35
*** hever has quit IRC00:48
*** davi|lunch is now known as davisagli00:54
*** menesis has quit IRC00:57
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away00:59
*** regebro has quit IRC01:09
*** dunny has joined #zope01:11
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli01:12
*** MrTango has quit IRC01:22
*** regebro has joined #zope01:25
*** MrTango has joined #zope01:36
*** allisterb has quit IRC02:08
*** williamthekid has quit IRC02:08
*** minskmaz_ has joined #zope02:10
*** MrTango has quit IRC02:11
*** daMaestro has quit IRC02:12
*** daMaestro has joined #zope02:12
*** minskmaz has quit IRC02:13
*** minskmaz_ is now known as minskmaz02:13
*** williamthekid has joined #zope02:15
*** williamthekid has quit IRC02:15
*** alvaro has joined #zope02:16
*** allisterb has joined #zope02:24
planetzopebotcollective.contacts 1.4.5 (PyPI recent updates)
*** daMaestro has quit IRC03:47
*** SpankyFromBRC has quit IRC04:01
*** tmassman has joined #zope04:05
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away04:13
*** aaronv has joined #zope04:36
*** alvaro__ has quit IRC04:36
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli04:49
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away04:51
*** aaronv has quit IRC04:53
*** aaronv has joined #zope04:54
*** aaronv has quit IRC05:02
*** aaronv has joined #zope05:02
*** aaronv has quit IRC05:08
*** aaronv has joined #zope05:08
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli05:09
*** aaronv has quit IRC05:17
*** aaronv has joined #zope05:38
*** aaronv_ has joined #zope05:46
*** aaronv has quit IRC05:46
*** aaronv_ is now known as aaronv05:46
*** minskmaz has quit IRC05:51
*** aaronv has quit IRC05:53
*** aaronv has joined #zope05:55
*** aaronv has quit IRC06:00
*** aaronv has joined #zope06:03
*** aaronv has quit IRC06:13
planetzopebotThinking about the structure of the book (ZODB Documentation)
*** yuvilio has joined #zope06:37
*** anguenot has joined #zope06:37
CIA-94andreasjung * r113964 zopyx.versioning/zopyx/versioning/ ( README.txt): updated06:47
CIA-94andreasjung * r113965 zopyx.versioning/zopyx/versioning/README.txt: typo06:47
*** yuvilio has quit IRC06:51
*** bhagat has joined #zope07:22
*** mahiti_skt has joined #zope07:56
*** bhagat has quit IRC08:15
*** bhagat has joined #zope08:18
*** tmassman has quit IRC08:26
*** anguenot has quit IRC08:28
*** __mac__ has joined #zope08:43
*** d2m has joined #zope08:57
*** JaRoel|4D has quit IRC09:02
*** bhagat has quit IRC09:03
*** wosc has joined #zope09:05
*** bhagat has joined #zope09:05
*** MJ has joined #zope09:10
*** astoon has joined #zope09:11
*** MJ has quit IRC09:13
*** yvl has joined #zope09:14
*** sashav has joined #zope09:36
*** smita has joined #zope10:00
*** astoon has quit IRC10:03
*** neo|4D has joined #zope10:05
*** JaRoel|4D has joined #zope10:06
CIA-94astoon * r113966 /bluebream/website/docs/v1.0/introduction.rst: added translations section into introduction10:06
*** astoon has joined #zope10:09
*** fredvd has joined #zope10:10
*** agroszer has joined #zope10:14
*** MrTango has joined #zope10:22
*** r0ver has left #zope10:24
*** pxgoWu is now known as Wu10:25
*** AnneGilles_ has joined #zope10:29
*** planetzopebot has quit IRC10:33
*** planetzopebot has joined #zope10:34
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away10:45
*** fredvd has quit IRC11:17
*** neo|4D has quit IRC11:21
*** neo|4D has joined #zope11:22
*** eperez has joined #zope11:27
*** eperez has quit IRC11:28
*** mahiti_skt has quit IRC11:29
*** mahiti_skt has joined #zope11:32
*** MatthewWilkes has joined #zope11:41
*** menesis has joined #zope11:46
*** mitchell`off is now known as mitchell11:47
*** mitchell is now known as mitchell`11:47
*** __mac__ has quit IRC11:50
*** __mac__ has joined #zope11:54
*** vipod has joined #zope12:02
*** __mac__1 has joined #zope12:22
*** __mac__ has quit IRC12:22
*** __mac__1 has quit IRC12:35
*** __mac__ has joined #zope12:35
*** evilbungle has joined #zope12:37
*** teix has joined #zope12:52
*** astoon has quit IRC12:58
*** cwarner has quit IRC13:12
*** bobo_b has joined #zope13:16
*** sim_sim has joined #zope13:18
*** emrojo has joined #zope13:22
*** agroszer has quit IRC13:34
CIA-94MatthewWilkes * r113967 zope.sendmail/src/zope/sendmail/tests/
CIA-94Test that a broken mailer implementation's exceptions don't abort transactions13:36
CIA-94if they happen too late. Add tests for a new 'vote' method that allows a mailer13:36
CIA-94to tell the delivery implementation that it knows it will be unable to proceed.13:36
*** agroszer has joined #zope13:43
*** AnneGilles_ has quit IRC13:57
*** jham_ is now known as jham14:04
*** fredvd has joined #zope14:17
CIA-94jim * r113968 /Sandbox/J1m/dojoapibrowser: Utilities to fetch and display dojo API reference material.14:21
CIA-94jim * r113969 /Sandbox/J1m/dojoapibrowser/ (api.js buildout.cfg index.html initial version14:21
*** allisterb has quit IRC14:22
*** mgedmin has joined #zope14:24
_mup_Bug #599744 was filed: error when no compiled _zope_security_checker.c is available and  ZOPE_WATCH_CHECKERS is set <> <>14:29
*** allisterb has joined #zope14:36
*** aaronv has joined #zope14:43
*** tmassman has joined #zope14:50
*** thetet has joined #zope14:54
CIA-94janwijbrand * r113970 gocept.selenium/ (src/gocept/selenium/static static.cfg CHANGES.txt): merge -r 113445:113449 svn+ssh://
CIA-94janwijbrand * r113971 /gocept.selenium/branches/jw-staticfiles-testlayer2: remove merged branch14:55
*** dayne has joined #zope14:55
*** mr_jolly_ has joined #zope15:02
CIA-94MatthewWilkes * r113972 zope.sendmail/ (5 files in 2 dirs):15:16
CIA-94Add a vote method the the mailer interface and implement it for SMTPMailer.15:16
CIA-94Attempts to create the connection and HELO while in transaction vote rather than15:16
CIA-94finish, so exceptions in making the connection will abort the current15:16
CIA-94transaction safely.15:16
CIA-94The vote method needs to be provided to the MailDataManager, but if a Mailer implementation doesn't provide one DirectMailDelivery will provide a noop replacement and make a deprecation warning.15:16
CIA-94Bump version to 3.8 branch15:16
CIA-94janwijbrand * r113973 gocept.selenium/ bump the version to 0.5 for the future release15:16
CIA-94adamg * r113974 /Sandbox/adamg/zope.wineggbuilder/trunk/master.cfg: more packages to test15:16
*** tisto has joined #zope15:22
*** bhagat has quit IRC15:24
*** adzuci has quit IRC15:27
*** adzuci has joined #zope15:28
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope15:29
*** mr_jolly_ has quit IRC15:29
*** dayne has quit IRC15:31
*** dayne has joined #zope15:33
*** yvl has quit IRC15:37
*** mr_jolly_ has joined #zope15:42
*** yuvilio has joined #zope15:42
*** mr_jolly has quit IRC15:43
*** mr_jolly_ is now known as mr_jolly15:43
*** tisto_ has joined #zope15:47
*** tisto has quit IRC15:47
CIA-94adamg * r113975 zope.component/ (. /buildout.cfg): added coverage parts to buildout.cfg15:49
*** mr_jolly has quit IRC15:53
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope15:53
planetzopebotProducts.PloneGetPaid 0.10.1 (PyPI recent updates)
planetzopebotgetpaid.core 0.9.1 (PyPI recent updates)
*** wosc has quit IRC16:04
*** mr_jolly has quit IRC16:08
*** tmassman has quit IRC16:10
*** tmassman has joined #zope16:14
*** tisto_ has quit IRC16:16
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope16:25
*** mr_jolly has quit IRC16:30
*** mahiti_skt has quit IRC16:30
*** __mac__ has quit IRC16:32
*** hever has joined #zope16:34
*** cwarner has joined #zope16:38
*** hever has quit IRC16:45
*** jim_SFU has joined #zope16:45
*** hever has joined #zope16:56
*** alvaro_ has joined #zope16:56
*** williamthekid has joined #zope16:57
*** williamthekid_ has joined #zope16:57
*** hever has quit IRC16:58
*** williamthekid has quit IRC17:01
*** williamthekid_ is now known as williamthekid17:01
*** dayne has quit IRC17:05
*** r0ver has joined #zope17:07
*** MrWu has joined #zope17:17
CIA-94charlie_x * r113976 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/profiles/views_support/actions.xml: Trailing whitespace removed.17:18
*** dunny has quit IRC17:20
*** sashav has quit IRC17:21
*** eperez has joined #zope17:23
CIA-94charlie_x * r113977 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/browser/membership/
CIA-94self.context.request corrected to self.request17:31
CIA-94Tests required for @@logged_in.html17:31
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope17:31
*** Charlie_X has joined #zope17:35
*** dayne has joined #zope17:39
*** macsppadic has joined #zope17:46
macsppadichello there...a complete noob to zope - wondering if i could ask a query as regards a broken brains object ..and how i could go about removing it17:47
macsppadicis it possible to remove it via the zmi under portal_catalog?17:47
Charlie_XI don't think you can.17:48
Charlie_Xbrains objects are query results so they are not persistent, I think. I'm not an expert on the ZCatalog, though.17:49
macsppadichey Charlie_X ...oh dear ..i feared as much17:49
macsppadicthanks for that17:50
Charlie_XYou may have something else broken that is causing the error.17:50
macsppadictrying to trace the error via the zmi error log17:51
Charlie_XBetter to use debug mode, if possible17:51
macsppadicthanks Charlie_X17:52
*** astoon has joined #zope17:58
*** mr_jolly has left #zope17:58
*** dayne has quit IRC17:59
*** zagy has quit IRC17:59
*** zagy has joined #zope17:59
*** allisterb has quit IRC17:59
* Charlie_X rings the bell18:00
* Charlie_X clears his throat18:00
* Charlie_X looks expectantly at agroszer18:01
* agroszer blinks18:01
Charlie_XYes, it's that time again.18:01
* agroszer shovels away the pile of code18:02
agroszeranyone else here, or it's going to be a 1 on 118:02
Charlie_XI'm all screen18:02
*** dataflake has joined #zope18:03
Charlie_XCongratulations on getting the release out of the door.18:03
* agroszer looks at the agenda18:03
* Charlie_X waves hopefully at dataflake18:03
*** zagy has quit IRC18:03
dataflakehi charlie18:03
agroszernow we're 318:03
agroszerwhat to wrap up with the KGS release?18:04
Charlie_Xer, I think that means. Have you anything to add to the announcement18:05
agroszerehh, one thing18:06
agroszerthere's an ANN to make in German18:06
agroszerLinux Enterprise ( -- The short announcement must be in German. (If you don't know Germen, get someone who does to do this for you.)18:06
agroszerand I'm not native German18:07
agroszerso who's going to do that?18:07
* Charlie_X is being demonstrably not German this week18:07
Charlie_XPlease send an e-mail to the list.18:07
dataflakecount me out. zope 3 KGSs are completely un-interesting to me.18:07
Charlie_XMy written German isn't good enough but I could help.18:07
*** dayne has joined #zope18:08
agroszerCharlie_X, I guess it's like translating the first few lines of the ANN18:08
dataflakeagroszer: ask stephan richter maybe?18:08
Charlie_XOkay. I can give that a go. As long as it's not the whole hog, especially not in the heat/humidity18:09
* Charlie_X is wilting18:09
dataflakeso am i18:09
* Charlie_X checks his operating manual: max operating temperature 25°C18:09
agroszerdataflake, haven't talked to him for ages now, seems like vanished from the scene18:09
Charlie_Xagroszer: what are the plans for the next release? 3.5?18:10
agroszerCharlie_X, I thought bluebream takes over18:10
dataflakeCharlie_X: there is no zope 3 3.518:10
agroszerIOW bluebream is the new zope 318:10
Charlie_XJust because people aren't active on a mailing list doesn't mean they are not active.18:10
dataflakeagroszer: correct18:10
Charlie_Xah, minor misconception on my behalf.18:10
dataflakeCharlie_X: zope 3 is a marketing problem for all of zope.18:11
agroszermaybe one more bugfix or so to be expected18:11
dataflakebluebream is the way out/18:11
Charlie_XOkay. I'll send you a translation of the introduction to the ML. Maybe a native speaker will deign to correct it, if not: lock and load.18:12
agroszerohh, gotta add bluebream tests to winbot18:12
*** allisterb has joined #zope18:12
agroszerCharlie_X, for the record: winbot is testing more and more packages18:12
Charlie_XThanks agroszer18:13
Charlie_XZope summit? or Bug day?18:13
agroszerTheuni should be present...18:14
agroszerI guess this is something like discussing the future of zope18:14
* Charlie_X dons his homemade CMF/Repoze hat18:14
Charlie_XIt's still fashionable to do Zope down. But I think Zope projects have a great future.18:15
dataflakeof course they do18:15
agroszeras a starter we could look around what others have that we miss18:16
Charlie_XNot more features.18:17
mcdonc_hello all ;-)18:17
dataflakehi chris18:17
Charlie_XBetter explanation of using components to solve your problems18:17
* agroszer counts 418:17
Charlie_XHi mcdonc_18:17
mcdonc_its a quorum18:18
MatthewWilkesagroszer: Personal record? :)18:18
Charlie_Xmcdonc_: who, apart from Tres, is coming over in September?18:18
mcdonc_Charlie_X: i am supposed to18:18
Charlie_XAttendance is always better when Theuni isn't here! :-P18:18
mcdonc_i didnt know tres was going18:19
Charlie_XCool. So the bicycle toolkit will be on the agenda?18:19
Charlie_XI'm sure he told me he was coming. But I would expect you to know better.18:19
mcdonc_it's the only sane agenda ;-)18:19
mcdonc_dataflake: long time no see, you been busy eh18:20
Charlie_XI wanted to discuss with him at the Oil Slick Sprint whether I should do a CMF on Repoze or repoze.cmfish presentation18:20
mcdonc_hehe oil slick sprint18:21
Charlie_XWant t-shirts doing?18:21
agroszerthat's rather a sad story if you mean the mexican one18:21
dataflakemcdonc_: yup, busy with work18:21
mcdonc_t-shirts would be good ;-)18:21
Charlie_XNoted. I'll just need sizes.18:22
mcdonc_heh, as if there would be any smalls18:22
dataflakemcdonc_: why, thought you were dainty now ;-)18:23
Charlie_X"svelte" isn't the word18:24
dataflakei love that word18:24
Charlie_Xmcdonc_: have you got anything planned for the summt? or the conference?18:25
Charlie_X We really need to get the RFP out.18:25
Charlie_XHanno is having his own meeting on the mailing list.18:26
dataflakelooks like it18:26
* Charlie_X tosses in the bone of certification18:28
agroszerwhat sort of cert?18:28
*** sashav has joined #zope18:28
Charlie_Xat the recent DZUG talk on BFG we discussed the degree of testing in zope and how unusual that is.18:29
Charlie_XI would like to see some form of Python and or Zope certification as an indication of the quality of the software. I don't think we realise how much better it is than the competition.18:30
dataflaketheuni knows all about certifications ;-)18:30
agroszerwe could publish test coverage18:30
agroszerbut test coverage is not the whole story18:31
CIA-94tlotze * r113978 gocept.selenium/static.cfg: set up the tests for the static stuff according to the ZTK KGS18:31
Charlie_XI'm thinking along the lines of an "approved" process that could possibly be ISO certified.18:31
dataflakegood luck...18:31
agroszeryou're an optimist18:32
agroszertalk to Theuni, he tried this once18:32
Charlie_XIt's not that difficult. The talk at last's Plone conference was an eye-opener.18:32
Charlie_XIt takes time and energy.18:33
Charlie_Xoops, time is up. I have a question on svn.18:33
Charlie_XI lost the history and properties of some files in a reorganisation at the weekend. Is there an easy way to restore them?18:34
* Charlie_X hangs his head in shame18:35
agroszerhow lost?18:35
Charlie_Xsvn del file_name_goes here && svn add file_name_goes here18:35
mcdonc_Charlie_X: i'm expecting to sprint on cms'y stuff at the oil slick sprint18:35
mcdonc_i had hoped to have something built by now with cms basics but it has not yet happened18:36
agroszerCharlie_X, is it an own repo?18:36
mcdonc_actually zope's testing culture is spreading18:36
Charlie_XNope, Products.CMFDefault18:36
Charlie_X   D   Products.CMFDefault/trunk/Products/CMFDefault/browser/utils.py18:37
Charlie_X   A   Products.CMFDefault/trunk/Products/CMFDefault/browser/utils.py18:37
agroszerI'd do an experiment in a sandbox18:37
mcdonc_at least the other web frameworks tend to do good testing of new features (if not old ones)18:37
agroszerdo the same and then try to revert18:37
Charlie_Xmcdonc_: Of course, it's spreading. Testing is pretty common in the Python world. But check out some other projects.18:37
mcdonc_i actually don't use packages that don't have good test coverage18:38
mcdonc_this is also probably why i write a lot of software ;-)18:38
Charlie_XThat approach needs more publicity.18:39
mcdonc_hard to publicize without sounding smug and self-satisfied ;-)18:39
Charlie_XTypical developer talk. Sound impressed and confident.18:40
Charlie_X"It's tested!"18:40
mcdonc_i think fundamentally a lot of people don't know how to write tests.. in particular they don't know how to write a test suite that gets high code coverage18:41
* Charlie_X is currently suffering with getSecurityManager().checkPermission(permission, obj) on his machine18:41
mcdonc_mostly because they don't know the difference between integration testing and unit testing18:41
Charlie_Xmcdonc_: you are right and that is a USP18:42
agroszerand writing tests is sometimes a real PIA18:42
Charlie_Xagroszer: the BFG approach of writing the documentation helps a bit in that respect.18:42
mcdonc_what does "USP" mean?18:42
Charlie_XI think test writing is one of those things that you need to get the hang of and feel for how long it takes.18:43
agroszerI ordered the book18:43
Charlie_X"unique selling point"18:43
Charlie_Xmcdonc_: a company I know selling a CMS does not have a testing culture at all.18:44
mcdonc_they probably implement features very quickly18:45
Charlie_XThe time saved by having tests needs to be seen as important as the speed of the application.18:45
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli18:45
Charlie_XThey are not that fast. They aren't bad either. But the problems that result from not having automated tests for known errors crop up often enough.18:46
agroszernot to mention refactorings18:46
Charlie_XSo, wear a "It's tested!" badge with pride.18:47
agroszerpublish it, should be easy with bots18:47
Charlie_XBadge for the websites.18:48
agroszersaying "we're well tested" is ...18:48
Charlie_XTag for the packages.18:48
*** davisagli is now known as davisagli|away18:48
agroszermeans e.g. for java, having 20% or so coverage18:48
*** dataflake has quit IRC18:48
agroszerso be careful with "well tested"18:49
agroszerbzw "good coverage"18:49
mcdonc_i think probably it depends what you're writing a little bit18:50
mcdonc_for frameworky bits, i think all testing is justified18:50
mcdonc_for application-y bits, especially for features that have a sell-by date (like some interactive map of an oil spill, say), maybe not as much18:51
mcdonc_(the app is definitely not gonna last as long as the oil spill)18:51
TheJesterUnless of course you're using the map before making a public statement as to how bad the spill  will be d8)18:51
*** DigitalD_ has joined #zope18:51
Charlie_XWould it be conceivable to have 100% test coverage as future requirement for the ZTK? Speaking that is, at someone who is still struggling to get to grips with testing.18:51
TheJesterI'll just wait while you cycle over every combination of values possible to put into each method...18:52
Charlie_Xmorning TheJester18:52
*** JaRoel|4D has quit IRC18:52
TheJesterTesting has to be definition be incomplete18:53
TheJesterYou try to test 'classes' of inputs18:53
TheJesterSo not "every value" but "less than zero, zero, more than zero"18:53
TheJesteras an example18:54
TheJesterUnless of course you can "prove" correctness...18:54
Charlie_XI understand that 100% testing != totally reliable18:54
TheJester100% != possible d8)18:54
TheJesterFor anything non-trivial18:55
Charlie_XI'm thinking more along the lines - do I have 100% coverage of methods?18:55
TheJesterquantity over quality ?18:55
TheJesterWhoever crashes with the most tests wins?18:55
TheJesterActually that'd be a great t-shirt d8)18:56
Charlie_XThat's a risk but I don't think it's necessary outcome.18:56
TheJesterBugs are inevitable, unless as I say, you've gone to the trouble to prove correctness18:56
TheJesterWhich is a much harder task d8)18:56
mcdonc_i think 100% statement coverage is a reasonable goal; required but not sufficient18:56
mcdonc_(at least for things you care about using again)18:57
*** DigitalD_ has left #zope18:57
Charlie_XTheJester: I don't seek to imply 100 % test coverage == no bugs.18:57
TheJesterThat's why I have dead  code at the bottom of every file where the bugs can live18:58
*** davisagli|away is now known as davisagli18:58
Charlie_XBut adding the coverage metric to the bot tests won't hurt will it?18:58
TheJesterI should put it at the top, but, the bugs like to go where they have more scope18:59
mcdonc_100% statement coverage is just a nice, objective metric that is a prerequisite for actually testing the most common results from a set of inputs18:59
mcdonc_so if you want your code to "be tested", 100% statement coverage is basically the least you can do18:59
TheJesterthat'll be interesting to see19:00
TheJesterincluding those statements that are in place to handle errors19:00
TheJesterand the ones you wrote to do the testing...19:00
TheJesterIf every line of code needs to be tested, then the test code you just wrote needs to be tested... d8)19:01
Charlie_Xmcdonc_: I agree. I've been working on a "simple" port of the CMF join_form to a view and it's struck me that, although the code is simple enough (and I think the CMF code is of a very high standard), the port is difficult because of the missing objectives. If I had the objectives it would be easier to write the tests and the port.19:01
mcdonc_sure, might as well never test anything then19:01
TheJesterI'm just  saying that 100% statement coverage is probably more marketing than anything useful d8)19:02
mcdonc_uh huh19:02
TheJesteras a "line" as opposed to an objective19:02
Charlie_XTheJester: I don't agree19:02
CIA-94MatthewWilkes * r113979 Zope/ I want to use zope.deprecation and it's in the toolkit so let's bring it in.19:02
mcdonc_but you know.. if you actually *are* trying to test everything, you wind up with it as a side effect19:02
Charlie_XTesting requires you to think more about what you are trying to do.19:03
mcdonc_at least if you go through and whack out all the dead code19:03
*** neo|4D has quit IRC19:03
TheJesterLeave my dead code alone19:03
TheJesterIt's not hurting you, and it doesn't smell that much19:03
Charlie_XAnd tests are essential when refactoring.19:03
Charlie_XCool name for a band.19:03
planetzopebotquintagroup.plonecomments 4.1.4 (PyPI recent updates)
planetzopebottest (ZODB Documentation)
mcdonc_so i agree that 100% coverage is not very useful as a goal19:04
Charlie_XBut as a metric?19:05
mcdonc_if you do care about testing "everything" (or at least as much as that's possible), it ends up being necessary19:05
TheJesterunit testing should give you 100% coverage, but, those isolation tests don't really give you much once you start plugging it into other stuff19:05
mcdonc_Charlie_X: the metric is good because it gives humans an objective thing to shoot for, and if they get there, they *usually* have done more reasonable a job of testing than if they hadnt'19:06
TheJesterAll you can really say is "I washed it and it didn't shrink"19:06
mcdonc_but by itself it doesn't really signify much19:06
mcdonc_yeah, you need integration tests *too*19:06
TheJesterThat's harder, because it involves paths19:07
mcdonc_deform has 100% unit test coverage, but also has selenium tests for each scenario19:07
Charlie_XOkay. So including it as a metric may be of psychological benefit.19:07
mcdonc_that's because if it breaks, i have to *talk* to someone ;-)19:07
TheJesterIt's of dubious marketing value d8)19:07
mcdonc_it's excellent marketing19:07
mcdonc_and excellent psychological value19:08
TheJesterThe way OpenBSD claimed no exploits in base, and then continued to refine base and then exploit as they were exploited? d8)19:08
*** runyaga has joined #zope19:08
mcdonc_since when did marketing have anything to do with truth?19:09
Charlie_XTheJester: I think you are bit too cynical19:09
TheJesterIf you're putting numbers like 100% on things, I think you kind of look bad when shit breaks d8)19:09
mcdonc_*objective* truth even19:09
mcdonc_i write "framework" code as if the discovery of a bug or a misunderstanding of documentation would mean i had to talk to chris withers19:11
Charlie_XWhen shit breaks you look bad. You look foolish when your claims are found to be false. But that doesn't necessarily nullify them entirely.19:11
mcdonc_this is a way better motivator than testing metrics ;-)19:11
Charlie_XAs mcdonc_ says - if testing is of no value, don't bother testing.19:11
Charlie_XThe question is - is the value subjective?19:12
TheJesterI'm not saying it's of no value, simply that making grand statements isn't d8)19:12
mcdonc_the value is subjective yup19:12
*** alvaro_ has quit IRC19:12
*** alvaro has quit IRC19:12
*** alvaro has joined #zope19:12
*** alvaro_ has joined #zope19:13
Charlie_XI don't anyone is making grand statements even though there is obviously marketing value in such statements.19:13
mcdonc_space shuttle tests are more valuable than tv tuner tests et19:13
mcdonc_the value of the 100% test mantra is like any other mantra19:13
mcdonc_people need goals19:13
*** giampaolo has quit IRC19:14
mcdonc_unambiguous goals19:14
TheJesterI always maintained that anyone that did development should write code for a pacemaker annd then use that code to power their pacemaker for the first year of their job ...19:14
Charlie_X"he who never made mistakes, never made anything"19:14
mcdonc_like now we have someone helping us with internal coding here19:14
mcdonc_he's not really a software development expert or anything19:15
mcdonc_its really easy to turn him loose and say "do this that and the other thing, and make sure you get 100% test coverage of it"19:15
mcdonc_there's high value in that19:15
mcdonc_because otherwise he would test zero of it19:15
Charlie_XYep. That's good process.19:16
Charlie_XGood process doesn't guarantee good product. But it does help fix problems.19:16
mcdonc_later on he can figure out when that's appropriate or not19:16
mcdonc_when the training wheels are off19:16
*** macsppadic has left #zope19:17
Charlie_XI'm certainly not a software expert and I don't find testing comes naturally to me. But I am beginning to appreciate how important it is (for me)19:17
CIA-94MatthewWilkes * r113980 Zope/src/Products/MailHost/ ( Remove the SMTPMailer duplicated from zope.sendmail and make its module a deprecated alias to the equivalent in z.s.19:17
*** webmaven has joined #zope19:18
mcdonc_i usually use testing as an excuse to read my own code ;-)19:18
mcdonc_give it like the 4th-over ;-)19:18
mcdonc_"ah crap, right, that aint gonna work"19:18
Charlie_XReading and writing are significantly different cognitive processes.19:19
* Charlie_X thinks it's time to head for the balcony.19:19
mcdonc_testing gives you an excuse to be stupid19:20
mcdonc_which i am19:20
TheJesterYes, but, you have aversion therapy in the form of CW d8)19:21
Charlie_XNot quite true - it encourages you to work non-intuitively19:21
mcdonc_there's probably some brainiac who never needs tests19:21
mcdonc_dude who like can parse semantics out of each line before he presses return in realtime19:22
mcdonc_and run the code in his head19:22
mcdonc_and who can also do that when he refactors19:22
mcdonc_that aint me19:22
TheJesterThat matters not, unless he wrote the interpretted the compiler that compiled it, the OS and the compiled that compiled the OS and designed the silicon it's running on d8)19:22
mcdonc_oh but the stuff under you is perfect, you didnt hear? ;-)19:22
TheJesterAs a victim of the pentium maths bug...19:23
TheJesterI actually had intel courier me a new one..19:23
mcdonc_an intel courier19:23
TheJesterI had to talk to their tech for 45 mins about what I was using it for19:23
mcdonc_like some dude in an intel shirt19:23
*** astoon has quit IRC19:23
mcdonc_with a bag fulla processors?19:23
TheJesterPretty much19:23
mcdonc_thats awesome19:24
mcdonc_like the pied piper of cpus19:24
TheJesterI found out we have UPS vans here19:24
TheJesterWhich is surreal19:24
TheJesterWhen one pulls up your driveway19:24
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope19:24
mcdonc_dont believe it; you are being watched19:25
*** Charlie_X has quit IRC19:25
TheJesterOh yeah I know, that's why I sit here and talk about zope and python to fool echelon so they don't break my ruski spy ring19:25
mcdonc_wow, clever19:26
TheJesterThough I think my Egyptian handler is toast19:26
* TheJester once actually had a (low) security clearance19:27
koshhi all19:27
TheJesterspeaking of sleeper agennts19:27
* kosh sets TheJester on fire and hands out marshmallows19:28
*** Charlie_X has joined #zope19:29
* Charlie_X finds it quite a bit cooler on the balcony19:29
Charlie_Xback again, I think19:29
mcdonc_so yes, comrades, let us toil towards 100% unit coverage, glory to the state!19:31
* TheJester uses the marshmallow so he can proceed to level 4 of the containment facility to defeat the Andromeda Strain19:31
CIA-94MatthewWilkes * r113981 Zope/ ( src/Products/MailHost/ Use zope.deferredimport instead of zope.deprecated for deprecations. Yay.19:31
TheJesterWorkers control the means of test production19:32
Charlie_XRight, back to getting my view to work correctly.19:33
*** mr_jolly_ has joined #zope19:34
*** mr_jolly has quit IRC19:34
*** mr_jolly_ is now known as mr_jolly19:34
*** mr_jolly has left #zope19:35
*** mr_jolly_ has joined #zope19:37
*** mr_jolly__ has joined #zope19:37
*** daMaestro has joined #zope19:40
*** mr_jolly_ has quit IRC19:41
*** thetet has quit IRC19:44
*** agroszer_ has joined #zope19:46
*** digilord has joined #zope19:46
*** agroszer has quit IRC19:47
*** mr_jolly__ has quit IRC19:53
*** mr_jolly has joined #zope19:53
*** tmassman has quit IRC19:57
*** mr_jolly has left #zope19:59
*** astoon has joined #zope20:00
*** Charlie_X has left #zope20:03
*** williamthekid_ has joined #zope20:05
*** williamthekid_ has quit IRC20:06
*** williamthekid has quit IRC20:08
*** mitchell` is now known as mitchell`off20:15
CIA-94andreasjung * r113982 zopyx.versioning/zopyx/versioning/ (4 files in 3 dirs): added20:17
*** MatthewWilkes has quit IRC20:26
*** MrWu has quit IRC20:29
*** emrojo has quit IRC20:32
*** SpankyFromBRC has joined #zope20:32
*** redir has quit IRC20:32
*** mgedmin has quit IRC20:35
*** agroszer has joined #zope20:37
*** agroszer_ has quit IRC20:37
*** digilord has quit IRC20:41
*** evilbungle has quit IRC20:44
*** teix has left #zope21:01
*** povbot has joined #zope22:21 [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots -- please register your IRC nick and auto-identify:
*** agroszer has quit IRC22:26
*** r0ver has left #zope22:36
*** __mac__ has quit IRC22:46
*** menesis has quit IRC22:50
*** allisterb has quit IRC22:52
*** d2m has left #zope22:55
*** povbot has joined #zope23:07
*** menesis has joined #zope23:11
*** webmaven has quit IRC23:18
*** grahal has quit IRC23:25
*** grahal has joined #zope23:28
*** webmaven has joined #zope23:30
CIA-94charlie_x * r113993 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/browser/content/ (12 files in 2 dirs): templates folder removed as agreed with yuppie23:32
*** webmaven has quit IRC23:38
*** vipod has quit IRC23:44
*** Charlie_X has joined #zope23:44
*** TresEquis has joined #zope23:46
CIA-94charlie_x * r113994 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/browser/content/ ( configure.zcml): templates folder removed as agreed with yuppie23:47
CIA-94charlie_x * r113995 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/profiles/views_support/types/Image.xml: default alias is unchanged.23:47
CIA-94charlie_x * r113996 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/browser/ (form configure.zcml widgets): folder renamed "widgets" to be clearer about what it contains.23:47
*** webmaven has joined #zope23:54
*** daMaestro has quit IRC23:54

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!