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| CIA-94 | janwijbrand * r113997 gocept.selenium/ (4 files in 2 dirs): ignore the static package when finding tests for the ztk.cfg and zope2.cfg and plone.cfg profiles | 00:16 |
|---|---|---|
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| tommyJong | all zope objects that can be traversed to can inherantly be used as xmlrpc servers right? | 00:40 |
| tommyJong | there is no additional step in using traversable zope objects as an xmlrpc server correct? | 00:41 |
| tommyJong | or would i have to create a python script to create an xmlrpc server out of a zope object and then have my xmlrpc client query that object? | 00:41 |
| Charlie_X | I don't think that is 100% true | 00:42 |
| Charlie_X | Anything that inherits from SimpleItem should do xmlrpc. | 00:42 |
| Charlie_X | Otherwise you would need an adapter | 00:42 |
| tommyJong | Charlie_X: are there any additonal steps in using a zope object as an xmlrpc server or are they inherantly aware? | 00:44 |
| Charlie_X | It depends a bit on your Zope object. | 00:44 |
| tommyJong | i ask because i am having quite a time getting imformation from a zope object from a wordpress site that uses a php xmlrpc client | 00:45 |
| Charlie_X | Zope 2 objects all inherit from SimpleItem. Zope 3 / BlueBream ones are normally simple Python objects. | 00:45 |
| tommyJong | for basic things though like id, title, and other standard getters and setters of an object should be available via xmlrpc though right? | 00:45 |
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| TBoneSteakGum | this is driving me nuts... do zope objects inherantly act as xmlrpc servers or do i have to do something like this "d=xmlrpclib.Server('http://localhost:8080/Test', ... xmlrpclib.BasicAuthTransport('myusername','mypassword'))" | 01:53 |
| TBoneSteakGum | to make them servers | 01:53 |
| TBoneSteakGum | i want to call a few methods on some of my Zope objects using PHP | 01:53 |
| TBoneSteakGum | xmlrpc module | 01:53 |
| TBoneSteakGum | and i can't figure this out =( | 01:53 |
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| Charlie_X | See Chapter 13.3.2 of "Web Component Development with Zope 3" | 02:00 |
| Charlie_X | And check your Zope configuration | 02:02 |
| Charlie_X | A mailing list is probably a better place to ask than here. | 02:03 |
| Charlie_X | But see also the source and documentation for zope.publisher | 02:03 |
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| planetzopebot | Contributions (ZODB Documentation) http://zodbdocs.blogspot.com/2010/06/contributions.html | 02:34 |
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| CIA-94 | andreasjung * r113998 zopyx.versioning/zopyx/versioning/ (interfaces.py README.txt): updated | 09:15 |
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| CIA-94 | hannosch * r113999 Zope/doc/CHANGES.rst: Added note about help system side-effect | 11:01 |
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| mk86 | Hello. I got a very annoying problem with Zope's document_src(), maybe someone could help? http://pastie.org/private/dz8srjeypbrlkofbnzr6eg | 11:14 |
| CIA-94 | hannosch 2.12 * r114000 Zope/ (3 files in 2 dirs): Avoid problems in removing cache managers introduced in Zope 2.12.8. | 11:16 |
| d2m | hi mk86, what is the 'xlwt' module you mention in your paste? | 11:16 |
| mk86 | a python module creating xls-files for excel | 11:16 |
| d2m | i see, and you get the list data as a string | 11:17 |
| mk86 | the module is working alright, the problem is the strange output, document_src() generates I guess | 11:17 |
| d2m | through xmlrpc | 11:17 |
| mk86 | yes, I call the method from an external script via xmlrpc | 11:18 |
| d2m | so, no python list but strings a passed - did you try passing the list itself througgh xmlrpc? | 11:18 |
| mk86 | yes | 11:19 |
| mk86 | i pass the list through xmlrpc | 11:19 |
| mk86 | but I can already see from the zmi-side that the strings inside the returned list are not ok | 11:19 |
| mk86 | mylist = ['H\xc3\xb6he', ....] and mylist = ['H\\xc3\\xb6he', ...] are not the same here | 11:20 |
| d2m | why do you use the document_src method at all? | 11:21 |
| mk86 | the first one seems to be correct and works fine, but document_src delivers the second one (after converting to utf8 | 11:21 |
| d2m | which Zope btw. ? | 11:21 |
| mk86 | I need a table of special keywords that are found in all my dtml-methods | 11:22 |
| mk86 | Zope 2.7.9 | 11:22 |
| d2m | ok, how did you get dtml to encode to utf-8? | 11:23 |
| d2m | shoudl be latin-1 ootb | 11:23 |
| mk86 | like i wrote in pastie: I perform decode('latin1') + encode('utf-8') on all my found strings | 11:23 |
| d2m | i know that you need to convert to utf-8 to get the xmlrpc thing working | 11:24 |
| d2m | but the data shgould be in latin-1 already | 11:24 |
| mk86 | yes I know that too, that's why i did it | 11:24 |
| d2m | or is it not? last time you wrote, your read the data from the filesystem | 11:25 |
| mk86 | like i said conversation to utf-8 seems to work but he treats \\xc3\\xb6 like a bunc hof characters and not like \xc3\xb6 that stands for "ü" | 11:26 |
| mk86 | document_src() itself returns latin-1 text | 11:27 |
| d2m | btw, you can simply export certain zope objects with http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Products.FSDump | 11:27 |
| d2m | don't know the location of the zope package, but it could be the same | 11:27 |
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| mk86 | thought about that option alrady but I dont want to add any additional product for that | 11:28 |
| d2m | you dump to the filesystem and work happily on | 11:28 |
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| mk86 | ;-) I'm not allowed to | 11:28 |
| d2m | ok, do you read the source files from fielsytem and echo them through a dtml metod? | 11:29 |
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| mk86 | no python script only | 11:29 |
| d2m | so, the source is in filesystem already? | 11:29 |
| d2m | chances are, that the files are in a wrong encoding already | 11:30 |
| mk86 | ok see: the main script of my little search-programm is an external one | 11:30 |
| mk86 | it triggers a internal script inside the zmi via xmlrpc... | 11:30 |
| mk86 | that script is performing a search through all dtml-method objects inside the zmi | 11:31 |
| mk86 | and is returning the src of these files with document_src() | 11:31 |
| mk86 | then i filter out my searched words from that source, convert them to utf-8 | 11:31 |
| mk86 | the words are packed into a list which is finally delivered back to my external script | 11:32 |
| mk86 | and there, it's written into an excel-file | 11:32 |
| mk86 | the problem is, the way document_src captures the sourcecode somehow | 11:33 |
| mk86 | I can't understand why he came up with double backslashes. | 11:34 |
| d2m | if you print and return the results of your search to the browser - does it look ok? | 11:35 |
| mk86 | it's like a utf-8 code that is trapped inside a ordinary ascii-string somehow | 11:35 |
| mk86 | no there is still \\ in the list | 11:35 |
| d2m | ok, then the source is already hosed | 11:35 |
| d2m | how does it look like if you edit one of the dtml methods though the browser? | 11:36 |
| mk86 | wait ill check | 11:37 |
| d2m | did you set management_page_charset somewhere? | 11:37 |
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| mk86 | the text looks like normal "Höhe" (with Umlauts) | 11:39 |
| mk86 | hm no i dont think so | 11:40 |
| d2m | ok, then i do not understand why ptinzing the search results and returning printed would cause the \\s | 11:41 |
| mk86 | hm when i do not encode to utf-8 the returned latin text of document_src() has also that annoying double backslasheds | 11:41 |
| mk86 | I have just check the document_src itself. it does perform some kind of .read() operation with a parameter "raw". Mabye that "raw" is the problem? | 11:42 |
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| d2m | lets say you have a dtml method at http://localhost:8080/demo/dtmlmethod -- look at it like http://localhost:8080/demo/dtmlmethod/document_src (what do you see?) | 11:45 |
| mk86 | when i set my browser coding to latin1, it looks fine and i can see the word with the umlauts | 11:47 |
| mk86 | in utf-8 i just see a square with a questionmark | 11:47 |
| mk86 | I guess thats ok, since that code is latin1 | 11:48 |
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| d2m | i did a test and it works for me (TM) http://gbe.d2m.at/Pastebin/94 | 11:53 |
| mk86 | does it work if you return it as a list? | 11:55 |
| d2m | how would you return a string as a list? | 11:55 |
| d2m | document_src returns a sting | 11:55 |
| d2m | string even | 11:55 |
| mk86 | a sry, i do another step after calling document_src() | 11:56 |
| d2m | so, what are you doing to the string before returning? | 11:56 |
| mk86 | run through that string and fetch out my searched words | 11:56 |
| d2m | ok, lets try | 11:56 |
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| mk86 | then i append these words to a list and return that list | 11:57 |
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| d2m | mk86: http://gbe.d2m.at/Pastebin/95 | 12:03 |
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| d2m | mk86: sorry, did not get your anser - did that work for you? | 12:12 |
| mk86 | little in stress right now srry, back in a few min | 12:12 |
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| CIA-94 | MatthewWilkes 2.12 * r114001 Zope/src/Products/MailHost/mailer.py: This version of mailer.py is the same as the one in zope.sendmail, modulo some whitespace changes and not all error handling from z.s being present. It should therefore be safe to make this a deprecated alias. | 12:46 |
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| CIA-94 | MatthewWilkes 2.12 * r114002 Zope/src/Products/MailHost/MailHost.py: Actually use the sendmail SMTPMailer. | 13:01 |
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| CIA-94 | baijum 1.0 * r114003 bbkit/ (CHANGES.txt bluebream.cfg releases/bluebream-1.0b2.cfg): prepare for second beta | 13:17 |
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| planetzopebot | collective.langMailHost 0.3.2 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/collective.langMailHost/0.3.2 | 14:04 |
| CIA-94 | baijum 1.0 * r114004 bbkit/ (CHANGES.txt zopeapp.cfg releases/bluebream-1.0b2.cfg): Use zope.app.wsgi = 3.9.2 | 14:16 |
| CIA-94 | baijum * r114005 bluebream/ (3 files in 3 dirs): | 14:16 |
| CIA-94 | - Include zope.error & zope.principalregistry from site.zcml | 14:16 |
| CIA-94 | - Use 1.0b2 release KGS | 14:16 |
| CIA-94 | baijum * r114006 bluebream/ (CHANGES.txt setup.py): Preparing release 1.0b2 | 14:16 |
| CIA-94 | baijum * r114007 /bluebream/tags/1.0b2: Tagging 1.0b2 | 14:16 |
| CIA-94 | baijum * r114008 bluebream/ (CHANGES.txt setup.py): Back to development: 1.0b3 | 14:16 |
| mk86 | @d2m: that doesnt work. | 14:22 |
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| CIA-94 | charlie_x * r114009 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/browser/membership/join.py: Need to check whether a member_id has been supplied. | 14:37 |
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| d2m | mk86: what does't work? | 15:00 |
| mk86 | d2m: mk86: http://gbe.d2m.at/Pastebin/95 | 15:01 |
| d2m | mk86: i did it my way, you have to try yourself | 15:01 |
| d2m | but what exactly did not work? | 15:02 |
| mk86 | that eval-thing. | 15:02 |
| mk86 | it' seems it has no effect on the doublebackslash | 15:03 |
| planetzopebot | bluebream 1.0b2 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/bluebream/1.0b2 | 15:04 |
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| d2m | mk86: you could post the string that you get back from xmlrpc | 15:31 |
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| mk86 | it's a list that looks like this: ['H\\xc3\\xb6he', ... | 15:32 |
| d2m | a list or a string? | 15:32 |
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| mk86 | a list with my words that were found inside the string that document_src() gave me | 15:33 |
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| mk86 | http://pastie.org/1024930 | 15:34 |
| mk86 | that's my internal script | 15:35 |
| mk86 | it searches through the folder-tree for all DTML Method, DTML document and Python Script objects and gets the document_src from them | 15:36 |
| mk86 | then I check each of these source-snippets for the word "gettextlatin" that is followed by a translated word. So I collect that transated word I need for my excel list and append it to the list | 15:37 |
| mk86 | for example he finds "gettextlatin('zurück')" and appends the word "zurück" to my list | 15:38 |
| d2m | looks like you encode the elements of the list, make a string of it and encode parts of the string again | 15:39 |
| mk86 | your right, I removed the second encoding now but the error is still the same | 15:42 |
| mk86 | he still has trouble with "\\" instead of "\" | 15:42 |
| MatthewWilkes | mk86: Interesting way to search a folder structure… | 15:44 |
| d2m | i'd suggest you defer encoding until you return the list (you could use list comprehension) | 15:44 |
| d2m | mk86: you could use zopes built-in search to find certain object types under a path ... | 15:46 |
| CIA-94 | charlie_x * r114010 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/browser/membership/ (preferences.txt TODO.txt): Updated for preferences. | 15:47 |
| CIA-94 | charlie_x * r114011 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/profiles/default/actions.xml: Change password action added. | 15:47 |
| CIA-94 | charlie_x * r114012 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/skins/zpt_generic/personalize_form.pt: Information about folder security is misleading: member's cannot change the security settings. | 15:47 |
| mk86 | guess thats easier, but i got no idea how to do that in a pythonscript | 15:47 |
| d2m | like recursive visiting folders? | 15:49 |
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| CIA-94 | charlie_x * r114013 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/profiles/default/actions.xml: New action cannot be added without appropriate upgrade step | 16:08 |
| CIA-94 | charlie_x * r114014 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/browser/membership/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Member preferences view. | 16:08 |
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| deftunix | hi all, has zope concept like java heap space ? | 16:54 |
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| deftunix | and tuning capability to it | 16:55 |
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| bigkevmcd | deftunix: they're quite different things, Java VMs have a heap space, Zope isn't a VM | 16:56 |
| bigkevmcd | deftunix: what are you actually trying to do? | 16:56 |
| deftunix | bigkevmcd: i'm studing zope and comparing it with well known java application server and servlet container :) | 16:57 |
| deftunix | bigkevmcd: thanks... for tuning zope i can work with caching, right? | 16:57 |
| bigkevmcd | deftunix: you can do all sorts of things | 16:57 |
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| deftunix | bigkevmcd: how can i control memory allocation? | 16:58 |
| bigkevmcd | deftunix: you can control the number of threads, and the per-thread ZODB cache | 16:59 |
| bigkevmcd | there are also Zope Products that will cache computations | 17:00 |
| bigkevmcd | e.g. RAM Cache manager | 17:00 |
| bigkevmcd | be aware that the cache-size in the zope.conf file is the number of objects | 17:01 |
| bigkevmcd | not the memory | 17:01 |
| CIA-94 | andreasjung * r114015 zopyx.versioning/zopyx/versioning/interfaces.py: streamlined api | 17:03 |
| planetzopebot | Why A Case Management Framework? (Planet Nuxeo) http://blogs.nuxeo.com/cmckinnon/2010/06/why-a-case-management-framework.html | 17:04 |
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| CIA-94 | andreasjung * r114016 zopyx.versioning/zopyx/versioning/storages/mongodb/storage.py: basic storage operations are working - of course, we need tests :) | 17:32 |
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| CIA-94 | charlie_x * r114022 Products.CMFDefault/Products/CMFDefault/browser/membership/ (preferences.py preferences.pt): Link from preferences form to password change form will be replace by a visible action. As no additional text is required no dedicated template is required. | 19:28 |
| CIA-94 | hannosch * r114023 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/releaseteam/meeting-20100615.rst: Rescue an old task, which didn't get done | 19:28 |
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| CIA-94 | adamg * r114024 /Sandbox/adamg/zope.wineggbuilder/trunk/master.cfg: added bluebream, ztk1.0 | 20:52 |
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| j-w_ | hi hannosch | 20:58 |
| hannosch | j-w_: hi! | 20:58 |
| hannosch | j-w_: did you have time to test the ztk release with Grok? | 20:59 |
| j-w_ | nope :( | 20:59 |
| hannosch | ah, don't worry :) | 20:59 |
| j-w_ | hectic at work | 20:59 |
| j-w_ | yeah, well, I really wanted to | 20:59 |
| j-w_ | i'm curious how the ztk-release will work out | 21:00 |
| hannosch | we launch two different projects tomorrow, speaking of hectic :) | 21:00 |
| j-w_ | :) | 21:00 |
| j-w_ | you have time now? or should you really go back to the projects? | 21:00 |
| hannosch | I have time | 21:00 |
| j-w_ | ok :) | 21:00 |
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| j-w_ | no ccomb yet | 21:00 |
| hannosch | luckily we are big enough by now, so I'm not actually involved with any of those two projects | 21:00 |
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| j-w_ | who wrote all the "ztk changelog" items that now show up here http://docs.zope.org/zopetoolkit/releases/overview-1.0dev-r113891.html#migration-issues ? | 21:02 |
| j-w_ | very very useful | 21:02 |
| hannosch | those have been there for a long time | 21:02 |
| j-w_ | uhm, ok... | 21:02 |
| j-w_ | missed that somehow :) | 21:02 |
| hannosch | yeah. they haven't been very visible | 21:03 |
| hannosch | looks like nadako and faassen wrote most of them | 21:04 |
| planetzopebot | collective.tabr 1.1 (PyPI recent updates) http://pypi.python.org/pypi/collective.tabr/1.1 | 21:04 |
| j-w_ | ok! | 21:04 |
| j-w_ | ah, ccomb did send us a mail just now... | 21:04 |
| hannosch | yeah. maybe he will read the one about meeting up as well :) | 21:05 |
| j-w_ | ;) | 21:05 |
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| hannosch | wait for another 5 minutes for him? then do the meeting without him? | 21:06 |
| j-w_ | agreed | 21:06 |
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| j-w_ | hannosch: I'll do the notes again | 21:08 |
| j-w_ | unless you object to that :) | 21:08 |
| hannosch | of course not! :)) | 21:08 |
| j-w_ | hannosch: start? | 21:11 |
| hannosch | yep | 21:11 |
| j-w_ | minutes of last meeting ok? | 21:11 |
| hannosch | I put some more stuff into the open points (http://docs.zope.org/zopetoolkit/releaseteam/meeting-20100615.html) | 21:11 |
| j-w_ | I saw that indeed. +1 | 21:12 |
| hannosch | ok, +1 from me as well | 21:12 |
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| j-w_ | I guess we have one main topic, being the aplha release | 21:12 |
| j-w_ | oh, maybe first review the todo items | 21:12 |
| hannosch | let's go quickly through the tasks | 21:13 |
| j-w_ | right | 21:13 |
| hannosch | update ccomb branch / extras.cfg is all done I think | 21:13 |
| j-w_ | right | 21:13 |
| j-w_ | very nice | 21:13 |
| hannosch | review unresolved is done as well, equally nice | 21:13 |
| j-w_ | I think the review of unresolved deps etc is done too | 21:14 |
| j-w_ | right | 21:14 |
| j-w_ | I didn't dare ask janjaap yet about the 64-bit windows test machine | 21:14 |
| j-w_ | he is very very busy | 21:14 |
| j-w_ | either I should try it | 21:14 |
| hannosch | ok. leave it for next week | 21:14 |
| hannosch | I think adam is making progress as well | 21:14 |
| j-w_ | he finishing his master thesis and generally a bit overloaded | 21:14 |
| hannosch | saw some ztk mentions on his buildbot machine | 21:14 |
| j-w_ | ah, that would be good | 21:14 |
| hannosch | ok. should I talk to Adam about it? | 21:15 |
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| j-w_ | I think that would be good | 21:15 |
| hannosch | ok. then I have an easy task on my list :) | 21:15 |
| j-w_ | :) | 21:15 |
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| j-w_ | i'll leave the task in the minutes though and add yours | 21:16 |
| hannosch | sure | 21:16 |
| hannosch | last task was "merge ccomb" branch, all done as well | 21:16 |
| j-w_ | yes, fine | 21:16 |
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| hannosch | I think we can only talk about the "alpha release" from the open points | 21:17 |
| j-w_ | yep | 21:17 |
| j-w_ | did encounter anything "difficult"? | 21:17 |
| j-w_ | did you... I mean | 21:17 |
| hannosch | nope. I just reused all the Zope 2 scripts :) | 21:17 |
| j-w_ | ah, ok | 21:18 |
| hannosch | actually today or very soon, I'd like to just make an alpha release, same way I did that dev-r12345 release | 21:18 |
| hannosch | I didn't want to call it an alpha without your consent | 21:18 |
| j-w_ | yes, I do not see anything standing in its way | 21:18 |
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| hannosch | cool. then I'll make an alpha today and sent out a note to zope-dev | 21:18 |
| hannosch | the first ZTK release! party! | 21:19 |
| j-w_ | maybe we should just do that indeed. It feels a bit, odd, but really I do not see anything blocking it right now | 21:19 |
| j-w_ | yeah! | 21:19 |
| hannosch | it's an alpha. it's not really committing to anything. just shows progress | 21:19 |
| j-w_ | i'll make note of the tasks of testing grok and BB against it | 21:20 |
| j-w_ | sure | 21:20 |
| hannosch | +1 on testing tasks | 21:20 |
| hannosch | I wanted to talk about roadmap to get a final out. not sure that makes sense without ccomb | 21:20 |
| j-w_ | hmmm, not sure | 21:21 |
| j-w_ | we can talk about it "off record" | 21:21 |
| hannosch | yep. I'll post a mail instead | 21:21 |
| j-w_ | or maybe by email? | 21:21 |
| j-w_ | :-) | 21:21 |
| hannosch | or actually we can talk about first | 21:21 |
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| hannosch | I was aiming for a beta in say four weeks (only bugfixes allowed) and a final something like august/september | 21:22 |
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| j-w_ | by bugfixes allowed you mean we will not update major versions of packages, right? | 21:22 |
| hannosch | yes | 21:22 |
| j-w_ | agreed | 21:23 |
| hannosch | and I'd like to keep all 4.x releases out of the ZTK 1.0 | 21:23 |
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| hannosch | zope.testing 4.0.x that is and that new zope.testrunner stuff | 21:23 |
| j-w_ | and I would say all of the buildbot slaves we decide on should be "green" | 21:23 |
| j-w_ | there aren't any 4.x release in now, right? | 21:24 |
| * j-w_ quickly scans list | 21:24 | |
| hannosch | nope | 21:24 |
| j-w_ | yes there is | 21:24 |
| j-w_ | zope.formlib | 21:24 |
| hannosch | ah | 21:24 |
| hannosch | that one is ok | 21:24 |
| j-w_ | but I actuallu think we need that version | 21:24 |
| hannosch | I was thinking about lennart's stuff in zope.testing and friends | 21:25 |
| j-w_ | and zope.app.form in zopeapp-versions.cfg | 21:25 |
| hannosch | those are actually backwards incompatible | 21:25 |
| j-w_ | that's ok too | 21:25 |
| j-w_ | right, I see | 21:25 |
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| j-w_ | ok, so upcomming efforts should focus on: follwing bugfix releases and getting all tests to pass | 21:26 |
| hannosch | one other thing: ZODB 3.10 (currently in beta) won't get in either. it doesn't support Python 2.4 anymore | 21:26 |
| j-w_ | ok, good to note | 21:26 |
| hannosch | ok. I think we tend to agree :) | 21:26 |
| j-w_ | boring | 21:27 |
| j-w_ | :) | 21:27 |
| hannosch | yeah, where is ccomb :)) | 21:27 |
| j-w_ | maybe we write this part down in an email indeed | 21:27 |
| j-w_ | and make that the agenda for next meeting | 21:27 |
| hannosch | yep. I can write it down | 21:27 |
| TresEquis | I don't thine ZODB is in the ZTK | 21:28 |
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| TresEquis | I know Jim doesn't consider it managed as part of the ZTK | 21:28 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: it's in the dependencies section of it | 21:28 |
| hannosch | or in the KGS - not in the "managed by" part | 21:28 |
| TresEquis | a ZTK which "pins" ZODB < 3.10 is not helpful | 21:28 |
| TresEquis | for a Zope 2.13 for instance | 21:29 |
| j-w_ | you can pin a version yourself, right | 21:29 |
| hannosch | it doesn't pin it. it just says zodb 3.9.5 is compatible | 21:29 |
| j-w_ | ztk just suggests a coherent version | 21:29 |
| TresEquis | Why ist ZODB a testing dependency for some ZTK packages? | 21:29 |
| TresEquis | or is it more than testing? | 21:29 |
| hannosch | it's a real dependency of many ZTK packages | 21:30 |
| j-w_ | TresEquis, hannosch are we identifying a potential problem here? | 21:31 |
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| TresEquis | because the question will keep coming up, over and over: "why can't I use version X of a non-ZTK package with the ZTK"? | 21:34 |
| j-w_ | can we find a good place to document the answer to that question? | 21:35 |
| j-w_ | a ZTK FAQ? | 21:35 |
| TresEquis | hannosch: basically, I don't think anything in that .cfg should be published as a "ZTK index" | 21:35 |
| hannosch | you can. buildout has a good way of combining and overriding version sets from multiple sources. indexes just don't support that. it's roll your own | 21:35 |
| TresEquis | easy_install supports it by using different indexes for different installs | 21:36 |
| TresEquis | keeping the non-ZTK pacakges in the ZTK index is going to lead to confusion | 21:36 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: ok. let's have that discussion on zope-dev after I make the alpha one announcement | 21:36 |
| TresEquis | and dilute the story | 21:36 |
| j-w_ | ah, right that;s what an custom index is usefull for | 21:36 |
| j-w_ | when you use easy_install | 21:36 |
| hannosch | we currently plan to offer an index, but none of the three frameworks will use it. we can just not publish one | 21:37 |
| j-w_ | TresEquis: still, where would people get the ZODB from if they use the ZTK index? | 21:37 |
| TresEquis | PyPI? | 21:37 |
| j-w_ | buildout supports multiple indexes? | 21:37 |
| TresEquis | j-w_: where are they going to get any other non-ZTK egg? | 21:38 |
| TresEquis | using the ZTK index as the default one for buildout should be non-supported | 21:38 |
| TresEquis | because buildout is stupid | 21:38 |
| TresEquis | about that | 21:38 |
| TresEquis | the buildout misfeature is the source of that idiotic "quasi-KGS" from Zope 3.3 | 21:39 |
| hannosch | right. but people don't really use indexes with buildout. it doesn't make all that much sense there. find-links and version restrictions just work | 21:39 |
| TresEquis | which was "KGS + all of PyPI" | 21:39 |
| j-w_ | right, that's why I do not understand using a custom index is useful | 21:39 |
| TresEquis | hannosch: I use indexes, but only because I make my own | 21:39 |
| TresEquis | an index is primarily useful for easy_install users | 21:40 |
| TresEquis | and should therefore *not* include extraneous packages | 21:40 |
| j-w_ | in the buildout sense, but even in a easy_install sense - will easy_install fall back to pypi if it cannot find a package on the given custom index? | 21:40 |
| TresEquis | no | 21:40 |
| hannosch | ok. is this going anywhere? what are we arguing about exactly? | 21:40 |
| j-w_ | so,how would yopu resolve all the deps if we would leave out the ZODB form the ZTK index? | 21:40 |
| TresEquis | I want *not* to have the dependencies etc. in the ZTK index | 21:40 |
| j-w_ | but how can that work? | 21:41 |
| * j-w_ really doesn't understand | 21:41 | |
| TresEquis | look at what is currently in that list | 21:41 |
| TresEquis | except for the ZODB stuff, it's mostly "toolchain" | 21:41 |
| TresEquis | and not real dependencies | 21:41 |
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| hannosch | sure. that toolchain is there, as all the three frameworks tend to use it, so it makes sense to share that version information | 21:42 |
| TresEquis | I would rather tell people using easy_install to get ZODB etc. installed from PyPI | 21:42 |
| TresEquis | hannosch: but *not* in an index | 21:42 |
| hannosch | currently it's just the same packages in the versions.cfg file and the index | 21:43 |
| hannosch | that's a simple setup | 21:43 |
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| hannosch | ccomb! | 21:43 |
| TresEquis | Installing a library from ZTK is not like installing Zope2 | 21:43 |
| ccomb | hannosch: hi! | 21:43 |
| TresEquis | you don't want to impose extra policy on the library user | 21:43 |
| j-w_ | I had the impression we were not... | 21:44 |
| j-w_ | since we only advertise a list that we think works coherently | 21:44 |
| TresEquis | in particular, your suggested policy of ZODB < 3.10 to keep Python 2.4 compatibility | 21:44 |
| j-w_ | by passing all tests in context | 21:44 |
| TresEquis | Python 2.4 compatibility is a questionable goal for the toolkit, to begin with | 21:45 |
| TresEquis | as none of its consumer frameworks still run on 2.4 (that I know of) | 21:45 |
| hannosch | it's a goal for the 1.0 release because BlueBream still supports it | 21:45 |
| TresEquis | so let BB pin the ZODB version | 21:45 |
| TresEquis | not the ZTK | 21:45 |
| hannosch | we talked about that. it needs to be there. it will be dropped for a 1.1 release | 21:45 |
| j-w_ | but then the ZTK tests might not work | 21:46 |
| j-w_ | so we need to pin a version that we know works | 21:46 |
| TresEquis | this is a case where the "fourth stakeholder" is important | 21:46 |
| hannosch | the ZTK releases are only there to serve the three frameworks. so it makes sense to restrict it to match the frameworks needs | 21:46 |
| TresEquis | the ZTK exists to serve the three frameworks *and* the wider community | 21:46 |
| TresEquis | that pin is harmful | 21:47 |
| hannosch | just don't use the ZTK releases and roll your own index. that's what I suspect all non-framework people do | 21:47 |
| TresEquis | pinning *any* of the non-ZTK dependencies to specific versions (as opposed to >= versions for older, unsupported stuff) makes the ZTK less useful | 21:48 |
| j-w_ | TresEquis: I must be slow, my apologies, but can you explain again why it is harmful or less useful? | 21:48 |
| j-w_ | I really try to understand how it limits you | 21:48 |
| TresEquis | j-w_: the "dependencies" list is there for automated testing | 21:48 |
| j-w_ | yes | 21:48 |
| TresEquis | but pushing them into the index makes them appear to be part of the ZTK | 21:49 |
| j-w_ | please stop right there, I have aquestion about that | 21:49 |
| hannosch | ok. I propose we just ditch the index then | 21:49 |
| TresEquis | and makes it harder for people to see that they should be installing those packages from elsewhere | 21:49 |
| j-w_ | if you use a custom index that does not have a particular dependency, how would you, when installing, resolve that dep? | 21:49 |
| j-w_ | manually? | 21:49 |
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| j-w_ | (I would not be against ditching the index BTW) | 21:50 |
| TresEquis | j-w_: I use easy_install to find and test the versions of packages that I support, and put those versions into a project-specific index | 21:50 |
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| j-w_ | so you do not actually ned the ZTK index | 21:51 |
| j-w_ | you use your own | 21:51 |
| hannosch | ccomb: any opinion on ditching the "index" from our ZTK releases? | 21:51 |
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| hannosch | that thing here: http://download.zope.org/zopetoolkit/index/1.0dev-r113891/ | 21:51 |
| j-w_ | so, the ZTK index would not limit you, do I understand that so far correctly? | 21:51 |
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| TresEquis | those dependencies are in that file mostly to allow buildout to reuse the list, right? | 21:51 |
| j-w_ | yes | 21:52 |
| j-w_ | exactly | 21:52 |
| TresEquis | but the "real" ZTK versions list is only the items "above" '# Dependencies' | 21:52 |
| j-w_ | the items above #deps is managed under the ZTK umbrella | 21:53 |
| TresEquis | I think we should publish *that* list separately, and find some way to include / extend it in the "drive the buildbots" set, which is private | 21:53 |
| ccomb | I'm not sure the index is of any interest if we have a versions list | 21:53 |
| j-w_ | but that means grok has to redo the deps part of the list | 21:53 |
| j-w_ | right? | 21:53 |
| hannosch | ccomb: right. it's of no use to any of the frameworks and it seems to be questionable for direct users, so I'd say we just don't publish it | 21:54 |
| TresEquis | it could still be shared by the three frameworks | 21:54 |
| TresEquis | hannosch: you still need to document how to get the packages installed for non-buildout purposes | 21:54 |
| TresEquis | which may mean just publishing the correct 'find-links' URLS | 21:54 |
| TresEquis | or publish a single page which has only those links on it | 21:55 |
| hannosch | TresEquis: I'll bring that up on zope-dev. let's see if there's actually people with that need | 21:55 |
| TresEquis | the problem with the current ztk-versions.cfg is that its name implies one thing, and its contents another | 21:55 |
| j-w_ | I guess we were very much focussed on using buildout | 21:56 |
| TresEquis | we need a way to publish a list of the "only the ZTK" versions somehow | 21:56 |
| TresEquis | ideally in a way that the buildbots consume and verify | 21:56 |
| TresEquis | I don't know if buildout's "versions" bit can be extended | 21:56 |
| hannosch | we are focussed on the needs of the three frameworks, as we are representing those. none of us really knows what the mysterious "fourth stakeholder" actually wants | 21:56 |
| j-w_ | yes | 21:57 |
| hannosch | I was guessing the index we published would be useful. Tres keeps telling us it's not and it's even harmful | 21:57 |
| j-w_ | grok wouldn;t use it | 21:57 |
| j-w_ | as it needs other packages too | 21:57 |
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| TresEquis | I think the harm comes from the extra policy you've added | 21:57 |
| j-w_ | so if it were to use an index, it would make its own | 21:58 |
| hannosch | so I'd just not publish it until we understand what would be useful and get that confirmed from multiple people | 21:58 |
| j-w_ | ok | 21:58 |
| TresEquis | an index consisting *only* of the actual packages could still be useful | 21:58 |
| j-w_ | how | 21:58 |
| j-w_ | I still don't get that | 21:58 |
| j-w_ | the index is incomplete | 21:58 |
| j-w_ | and then you cannot complete a easy_install "something" | 21:58 |
| TresEquis | easy_instal -i http://download.zope.org/ztk/1.0/simple zope.interface | 21:58 |
| j-w_ | sure | 21:59 |
| TresEquis | you can if you satisfy the requirements *first* | 21:59 |
| j-w_ | and how about a package that needs the ZODB | 21:59 |
| j-w_ | ok | 21:59 |
| j-w_ | so, that's what I meant with amnuall | 21:59 |
| j-w_ | manually | 21:59 |
| j-w_ | now I understand | 21:59 |
| j-w_ | I thought there was some mechanism somewhere somehow | 21:59 |
| TresEquis | if the easy_install failed to find the depencency, then you install the dependency and retry | 21:59 |
| TresEquis | this is how you build the "custom index" in the first place | 22:00 |
| j-w_ | that makes me think of the old rpm days | 22:00 |
| j-w_ | and how glad I was with apt-get... | 22:00 |
| j-w_ | but anyway | 22:00 |
| j-w_ | my use case is different and I do understand now | 22:00 |
| j-w_ | thanks for explaining | 22:00 |
| TresEquis | see http://docs.repoze.org/compoze/narr.html#building-a-package-index | 22:01 |
| hannosch | j-w_: should we officially end our ZTK meeting? | 22:01 |
| j-w_ | hannosch: yes | 22:01 |
| j-w_ | ccomb: sorry you couldn;'t make it earlier | 22:01 |
| j-w_ | I'll post the notes again | 22:01 |
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| j-w_ | next meeting? | 22:01 |
| hannosch | next tuesday before the zope-dev meeting? | 22:01 |
| ccomb | I'll start to be much more available from saturday | 22:02 |
| * j-w_ checks agenda | 22:02 | |
| j-w_ | next tuesday is ok for me | 22:03 |
| hannosch | ok. good. ccomb? | 22:03 |
| ccomb | ok for me too | 22:03 |
| hannosch | yes! great! | 22:03 |
| hannosch | we are awesome :) | 22:04 |
| ccomb | which means | 22:04 |
| ccomb | 16:00? | 22:04 |
| j-w_ | TresEquis: does compoze deal with binary eggs for different platforms? | 22:04 |
| j-w_ | hannosch: :-) | 22:04 |
| TresEquis | binary eggs are anathema ;) | 22:04 |
| TresEquis | since the only platform they are remotely useful for is one I never use or deploy to | 22:04 |
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| hannosch | and Windows eggs are really useful for the rest of us :) | 22:05 |
| hannosch | ccomb: 16:00 sounds good | 22:05 |
| j-w_ | 16:00 | 22:05 |
| j-w_ | it is | 22:05 |
| ccomb | ok | 22:05 |
| j-w_ | hmm, no football today | 22:06 |
| j-w_ | what should I do now with the rest of the evening ;) | 22:06 |
| ccomb | j-w_: play the vuvuzela | 22:07 |
| hannosch | ccomb: btw. we decided to release a first alpha, same way I did that dev release (minus the index) today. complain now or be silent :) | 22:07 |
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| ccomb | no pb for alpha | 22:08 |
| hannosch | cool :) | 22:08 |
| hannosch | thanks for the meeting! :) | 22:08 |
| j-w_ | thanks indeed | 22:08 |
| j-w_ | see you next week | 22:08 |
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| CIA-94 | hannosch * r114025 zopetoolkit/index.rst: Update install instructions | 22:23 |
| CIA-94 | hannosch * r114026 zope.z2release/ (CHANGES.txt zope/z2release/ztk.py): Disable the index building for a ZTK release. | 22:23 |
| CIA-94 | hannosch * r114027 zope.z2release/ (CHANGES.txt setup.py): Prepare zope.z2release 0.5. | 22:23 |
| CIA-94 | hannosch * r114028 /zope.z2release/tags/0.5: Tagged zope.z2release 0.5. | 22:23 |
| CIA-94 | hannosch * r114029 zope.z2release/ (CHANGES.txt setup.py): Bump version | 22:23 |
| CIA-94 | hannosch * r114030 zope2index/buildout.cfg: Update z2release | 22:23 |
| CIA-94 | hannosch * r114031 /zopetoolkit/tags/1.0a1: Tag ZTK 1.0a1 | 22:23 |
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| CIA-94 | hannosch * r114032 Zope/ (doc/CHANGES.rst versions.cfg): Update to ZTK 1.0a1 | 22:36 |
| CIA-94 | hannosch * r114033 /zopetoolkit/tags/1.0dev-r113891: Removed temporary testing tag | 22:36 |
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| CIA-94 | asmith * r114034 zc.ngi/src/zc/ngi/README.txt: fix typo | 23:46 |
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