IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-07-06

planetzopebotzeam.form.base 1.0rc1 (PyPI recent updates)
planetzopebotzeam.form.ztk 1.0rc1 (PyPI recent updates)
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CIA-94jim * r114218 zc.ngi/ (doc ngi): Added symbolic links for convencience.01:30
CIA-94jim * r114219 zc.ngi/ Added support for thr setup(tools) test command01:30
CIA-94jim * r114220 zc.ngi/ (12 files in 3 dirs):01:30
CIA-94Refactored ``zc.ngi.async`` thread management to make the blocking01:30
CIA-94APIs unnecessary. ``zc.ngi.async.blocking`` is now deprecated.01:30
CIA-94Made it possible to declare interfaces without zope.interface being01:30
CIA-94present and added interface declarations on the implementations.01:30
CIA-94Moved ConnectionFailed to tghe interfaces module.01:30
CIA-94jim * r114221 zc.ngi/src/zc/ngi/ Removed some debugging hackery.01:30
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CIA-94jim * r114222 zc.ngi/src/zc/ngi/ Fixed a spurious test failure.01:45
CIA-94jim * r114223 zc.ngi/src/zc/ngi/ ( async.txt): Got tests passing with Python 2.7.02:07
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louisii have zpt with a file form where i choose the file05:14
louisihow do i send the path or the file after parsed to another zpt?05:15
louisias a variable or something05:15
louisican anyone help me05:15
louisior is there n05:15
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koshsorry no idea what you are asking06:26
koshif you have a form that form has an action where that data is sent, if you are sending a file it must be a POST so whatever url you POST the data to will get that file06:27
koshand that is not related to ZPT or zope, that is just basic http06:27
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planetzopebot25 Years of the Model M (plope)
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CIA-94janwijbrand * r114224 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/releaseteam/meeting-20100630.rst: add ztk-releaseteam meeting notes10:31
CIA-94adamg * r114225 /Sandbox/adamg/zope.wineggbuilder/trunk/master.cfg: mailnotifier, py 27010:31
CIA-94adamg * r114226 /Sandbox/adamg/zope.wineggbuilder/trunk/server-setup.txt: update10:31
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deftunixhi all, i've a question about ZServer thread and zodb pool_connection; what is the realtionship between ZServer thread and pool_connection? one to one? ZServer threads (7 by default) are per-user request? how does it works?11:13
deftunixthanks in advance11:13
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Theuni1deftunix: it's threads:connections being n:m with m>=n and n the maxmimum number of threads used in parallel until now11:21
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Theuni1in upcoming ZODB releases there's a timeout for connections so that idle connections can automatically disappear after a while11:21
Theuni1whenever a thread starts working ZODB tries to assign the connection with the "best" cache11:21
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deftunixTheuni1: has zope relation between thread and concurrent user?11:22
deftunixTheuni1: exist a ZServer connection pool?11:23
Theuni1zodb maintains the connection pool11:24
Theuni1zserver is just an intermediary layer for assigning handing network connections (requests) to application threads11:24
deftunixTheuni1: for 100 concurrent user i need to increse zodb connection to ~110 and zserver connection to 10011:25
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Theuni1the zodb connection parameter is autotuning nowadays11:25
Theuni1you can ignore it11:25
Theuni1you also want as little threads as possible11:25
Theuni1if you have 100 concurrent users you optimally want 100 cpus11:26
Theuni1if you can't have that then you want each CPU that you do have to comput as fast as possible, then switching to the next request11:26
Theuni1otherwise all users will end up not getting answered11:26
Theuni1whereas this way every user will be answered at a time11:26
Theuni1some have to wait, some get their answer right away11:26
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deftunixTheuni1: sorry but i read the zope2book server-setting in Maintaning Zope section and says that the number of database connection is hardwired to seven and to increse the number of database connection when increse the ZServer thread numbers :)11:34
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deftunixTheuni1: i didn't understand the relationships and so on11:35
Theuni1that documentation about server-setting seems old. would you mind opening a bug in launchpad about it?11:36
Theuni1deftunix: the (network) server component manages threads11:36
Theuni1zodb manages database connections11:36
Theuni1when a thread starts working it starts talking to the database which in turn hands out a connection from the pool11:36
Theuni1if the database has connections open already then it tries to hand out a connection with a good cache11:37
Theuni1if there are no connections or all connections are used it creates a new one11:37
Theuni1the configuration option you are talking about has been superseeded11:37
Theuni1this kind of depends on the version of zope you have11:37
deftunixTheuni1: ok, that's ok... if n is user-client and m threads numebers, what is the n:m relationship?11:37
Theuni1as i said11:38
Theuni1oh wait11:38
Theuni1you want n:m to be close to 1:111:38
Theuni1(n:m for n=m)11:38
Theuni1you also want threads:cpus to be one to one11:38
Theuni1i'd rather stick with 1 thread one 1 cpu and go with a worse ratio of clients to threads11:39
bigkevmcddeftunix: what metric are you using to determine if you need to increase the connectivity?11:39
Theuni1so you could use: c (cores/cpus) users (u) and threads (t) with this:11:39
Theuni1c=1,t=1,u=n and then you try to either minimize u or maximize c (and thus t)11:40
deftunixbigkevmcd: i'm trying to understand how zope works... i have always use java application server and http or ajp connection pooler has a number of max connection set to max number of concurrent user permitted11:41
bigkevmcddeftunix: "permitted" ?11:42
bigkevmcddeftunix: That doesn't sound right11:42
bigkevmcddeftunix: what metric do you use to determine those figures?11:42
deftunixbigkevmcd: if i set maxThread in ajp connection pooler to 10, it accepts only 10 concurrent connections11:42
Theuni1deftunix: i think max users in their case equals max concurrent connections which is equal to our max threads11:42
Theuni1deftunix: http connection != zodb connection11:43
bigkevmcddeftunix: yeah, but that doesn't mean that only 100 concurrent users can use it11:43
bigkevmcddeftunix: in fact, it's no guarantee of 100 concurrency of anything other than requests11:43
deftunixbigkevmcd: yes11:43
Theuni1"concurrent user" is a weird term with http11:43
bigkevmcddeftunix: so, I'll ask again, what metric are you using to determine those figures?11:43
Theuni1btw: i'm close to a setup with about 30k users and 10k parallel users that runs happily on roughly 240 threads or so11:44
Theuni1but at this size, tuning is very specific11:44
deftunixI'm not even using anything ... I need to understand how zope works11:44
Theuni1it works well *g11:44
deftunixTheuni1: ok11:45
Theuni1i think it's hard to give you good advice as your questions are somewhat broad11:45
Theuni1there's lots of detailed technicalities involved11:45
bigkevmcddeftunix: randomly setting numbers in configuration files achieves nothing11:45
Theuni1and thus giving plain answers usually will have you end up doing the wrong thing although you're trying it for the best of reasons11:45
bigkevmcddeftunix: unless you're measuring the effect11:45
Theuni1which might turn out random as well *g11:46
bigkevmcdindeed :-)11:46
Theuni1correlation: random input, random output11:46
Theuni1or as debian would  say11:46
bigkevmcddeftunix: A better approach would be to use the default values, _measure_ the performance of the system, then ask advice on how to improve the performance from your measurements11:47
bigkevmcddeftunix: the key word is measure11:47
deftunixbigkevmcd: yes... later i will use benchmark before tuning my zope11:47
deftunixnow i need to learning how zope works11:47
deftunixonly that11:47
deftunixrelation between zodb connections and zserver threads and between zserver threads and http connections11:48
deftunixonly that... not the art of the performance tuning11:48
bigkevmcddeftunix: it's all there, in the code11:49
deftunixbigkevmcd: unfortunately not in the documentation11:49
bigkevmcdif you want start "learning how zope works", that's your best bet11:50
deftunixbigkevmcd: thank you very much :)11:52
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mr__qI'm experiencing some rather odd behavior with zc.blist and ZODB 3.9.5.  When the BList is extended and commit is called, it is not persisted.  What other kinds of information can I give you to help diagnose this?12:58
mr__qI'm a ZODB newbie, trying to transition from Durus to something a bit-more-capable of handling the heavy load I'm placing it under, and this has me rather frustrated.  There is indeed threading going on, but all calls to persistent objects as well as the commit are inside a lock.13:00
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CIA-94hannosch * r114227 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/releaseteam/index.rst: Link meeting notes into the toctree13:13
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agroszermr__q, are you sure the Blist is hanging on a persistent object?13:53
agroszerOTOH, why do you need zc.blist?13:53
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CIA-94jim * r114228 zc.ngi/src/zc/ngi/ Copied a trigger fix from ZEO.14:49
CIA-94jim * r114229 zc.ngi/src/zc/ngi/doc/index.txt: Fixed some spelling errors.14:49
CIA-94jim * r114230 zc.ngi/src/zc/ngi/doc/index.txt: Fixed formatting.14:49
CIA-94jim * r114231 zc.ngi/src/zc/ngi/ (11 files): Renamed some doctest files to .test to emphsize their testiness.14:49
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CIA-94janwijbrand * r114232 zc.catalog/ (CHANGES.txt Preparing release 1.4.416:37
CIA-94janwijbrand * r114233 /zc.catalog/tags/1.4.4: Tagging 1.4.416:37
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CIA-94janwijbrand * r114234 zc.catalog/ (CHANGES.txt Back to development: 1.4.516:57
CIA-94janwijbrand * r114235 groktoolkit/ (buildout.cfg grok.cfg): use ztk-1.0a1 release, use 1.4.4 bugfix release of zc.catalog16:57
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j-whi hannosch, ccomb17:01
hannoschj-w: I'm here in 3 minutes17:01
ccombhannosch j-w : hi17:02
planetzopebotredturtle.alternative_orderui 0.2.0 (PyPI recent updates)
hannoschok. I'm here :)17:05
j-whi :-)17:05
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j-wcan we try to limit to about half an hour?17:05
j-wi'll make notes again,  unless you guys really want to...17:06
* hannosch declares j-w note master! much appreciated17:06
j-wnot much response to your 1.0a1 announcement...17:07
hannoschyeah. I'm a bit disappointed. I'll bring it up at the zope-dev meeting17:07
j-wnotes last meeting ok?17:07
hannoschI'd like to get some feedback from "direct consumers"17:07
ccombthat's because people are not ztk users, but framework users17:07
hannoschyep. looks fine17:08
j-wthe "direct consumers" == "easy_install-based projects" in this case?17:08
hannoschj-w: both that and people like Zope Corp, Canonical, ... which don't use any of the big frameworks17:09
j-wsome kind of feedback would be appreciated indeed17:10
j-wat least I'm happy, from a Grok-perspective17:10
j-wI'll make note of that on the ml BTW17:10
ccombj-w: I've not seen yeet how you're using the ztk from groktoolkit17:10
hannoschccomb: any objections to the meeting nores?17:10
hannoschnotes even17:10
hannoschok, I declare the notes to be approved17:11
ccombare you replicating most of the buildbot conf, just extending the version list?17:11
j-wfor grok?17:11
j-wwe have a groktoolkit that is kinda like the ztk17:11
ccombfor bb, I would like to find an easy way to use the ztk without kinf of "forking" it anyway17:11
j-wthe gtk extends the version lists of the ztk17:11
j-wand add grok-specific deps17:12
hannoschZope 2 does this:
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ccombmmh ok17:13
hannoschisn't there a bbkit that looks similar?17:13
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ccombyes but I would like to see if it's possible to get rid of the bbkit17:14
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j-wccomb: why?17:14
ccombhaving 4 differents foobarkit disturbs me17:14
j-wmaintenance burden?17:14
Theuni2come kitty kitty kitty17:14
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hannoschccomb: I'd expect BlueBream to grow or have some of its own dependencies. so you need to maintain that at some place17:15
j-wi don't think grok could do without a think like a groktoolkit17:15
Theuni2btw: i advised some people internally to switch from the various home-baked project efforts to the ztk that was just released, the first impression was okish __mac__1 had some minor notes17:15
hannoschTheuni2: tell him to share those on the mailing list, we want feedback17:16
hannoschj-w, ccomb: if we want to keep this short, should we go through the tasks?17:16
j-wI tested grok17:16
j-wall seems fine17:17
ccombwhat were the hot topics?17:17
j-wtesting bb, 64-bit windows buildslaves17:17
hannoschI didn't talk to adam, but he managed on his own17:17
j-whannosch: I saw something about that17:17
hannoschwe got test results for all Windows flavors for the ZTK since yesterday17:17
hannoschincl. 64bit Windows17:18
j-wmaybve we should gather all the buildslave URLs for the ztk somewhere in the releaseteam docs17:18
j-wfor easy reference17:18
hannoschthat's the current list17:18
ccombok so among open points,17:19
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hannoschI'll make sure to add Adam's buildbots17:19
ccombI need to improve chekversions stuff to use final versions17:19
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hannoschccomb: indeed, any estimate when you might have the time for it?17:20
ccombeither before the end of the week,17:20
ccombor after the 22 july17:20
hannoschaha, vacations :)17:20
ccombyes, I'll try before :)17:20
j-wcan we help somehow?17:20
ccombmaybe just some advice on how to detect final versions?17:21
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hannoschpkg_resources has a "good" version API17:21
ccombok I'll look at that17:22
hannoschparse_version or so gives back a decent tuple of some sort17:22
hannoschand I guess the buildout code that deals with "prefer-final" has the logic as well17:22
ccombok, I remember I'm already using this tuple17:22
ccombotherwise, I will also move all the afpy buildbots to a newer machine with 64bits by default, and virtualisation support17:22
ccombso I'll eventually be able to add windows support to the autorelease buildbot17:23
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j-wany other task we can think of right now?17:23
ccombon my side I'll focus on these 2 tasks17:23
hannoschI think there's nothing concrete we need to do now17:23
j-welse I'd like to go over the open points list and see what's still relevant in it17:23
ccomband also let bluebream depend on ztk before any release17:24
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ccombif baijum and others are ok17:24
agroszerhannosch, pong17:24
hannoschagroszer: can you add yourself to the list at ?17:24
j-wis the matrix made by tres seaver a while ago still relevant for us to review? or should I remove that open point?17:24
agroszeremmm, sure ;-)17:24
danfairsHi there - quick question. I've got some old zope external methods that I need to migrate into a new egg-based project17:25
hannoschj-w: it's still relevant. before we release a "beta", I'd like to move some packages to the deprecated= lines17:25
j-wi'll move the "non-final versions" open point to the tasks list17:25
danfairsI've had a spelunk through the ExternalMethods code and it seems to look on Products.__path__ to find Extensions folders to examine17:25
j-whannosch: ok, can we make it into a task?17:25
hannoschj-w: I'd really like to be able to drop some packages from a ZTK 1.1 release17:25
danfairs... but I'm not sure how to get my package to 'register' itself so external methods in the Extensions folder can be found.17:26
hannoschj-w: we can make it into a task. it basically is already17:26
danfairsI've found a workaround of adding the path to the software to the products= line in buildout.cfg, but that's not the right thing to do17:26
danfairsany pointers?17:26
j-whannosch: then let's make it task, for all of three instead of an open point?17:26
hannoschok. I'd leave the "feature process" open point for now. something to talk about once we get closer to a final release17:27
hannoschwe had some discussion about "roadmap" and release dates. should we plan that for next time?17:28
j-wi do have a couple of minutes left now17:28
j-wso we could try to do it now?17:28
j-wthe roadmap for 1.0 you mean, right?17:29
hannoschwell, let's start with the vacation topic and when we are all available17:29
hannoschfor a next meeting as well :)17:29
j-wi'll be more or less gone from 07/18 until 08/1417:30
hannoschok. I don't have any vacation in the summer. available all the time17:30
Charlie_Xdanfairs - have you got product registration enabled? If so eggs behave pretty like classic Products,17:30
ccombpoor hannosch :(17:30
hannoschccomb: you mentioned something about vacation as well17:30
ccombyes, I'm on vacation from 11 to 2217:31
* hannosch will be "gone" a lot in September. moving countries, Zope summit and so on17:31
danfairsCharlie_X: do you mean enable-product-installation? (possibly not!)17:31
j-wmoving countries?17:31
j-wplate tectonics ;)17:31
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hannoschI'm moving to Germany, Berlin17:31
hannoschexpand Jarn's Berlin office. we'll be five people there plus two more people sharing the same office17:32
ccombmaybe we should doodle17:32
hannoschwell. with the two of you overlapping, we are all back after August 2217:33
j-whannosch: we could plan an informal meeting next week if that's ok with you ccomb?17:33
hannoscheh August 1417:33
MatthewWilkeshannosch: Five?17:33
hannoschMatthewWilkes: four, sorry forgot that lurker moved here17:33
j-wand then we could try a beta soon after august 14?17:33
Charlie_Xdanfairs: yes17:34
danfairsCharlie_X: it's OK - I think I've missed a bit of zcml :)17:34
Charlie_XAlthough I just add the packages to the zcml section of buildout17:34
ccombj-w: no pn17:34
ccombno pb17:34
hannoschj-w: informal meeting next week and proper one after August 14 sounds good17:34
danfairsCharlie_X: right - that's the bit I missed!17:34
* Charlie_X apologises to the ZTK team17:34
j-whannosch, ccomb anything else for now?17:35
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hannoschj-w: nothing important17:35
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j-wok, thanks for the quick meeting!17:35
ccombthanks bye17:35
hannoschj-w: should we meet before the zope-dev meeting again on Tuesday?17:35
hannoschok. same time?17:36
j-wI basically assumed same time same place :)17:36
CIA-94adamg * r114236 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/process/buildbots.rst: add winbot.zope.org17:36
j-wsee you next week!17:36
hannoschcool. meeting adjourned :)17:36
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hannoschagroszer: thx :)17:37
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wiggyhannosch:  is MailHost.send(<email.Message>) officially supported?17:38
hannoschagroszer: how hard would it be to extend your winbuild script to support a different SVN location for a package? Zope2 lives at /Zope17:38
hannoschwiggy: no idea. look at the MailHost code :)17:39
agroszerwhat do you want to build?17:39
wiggythe code tries to support it17:39
agroszerthe whole Zope2?17:39
wiggyexcept it fails to handle some common scenarios17:39
hannoschagroszer: yep17:39
hannoschagroszer: it's not much and only for the 2.12.x releases. For 2.13.x the Zope2 distribution doesn't contain C extensions anymore17:40
agroszerhow does that work? does it work via simple commandline-commands?17:40
hannoschsame stuff as everything else17:41
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hannoschpython bdist_egg upload17:41
agroszerthere's tagurl for the ini file17:41
hannoschZope2 is a normal egg these days :)17:41
agroszerbut I think the problem will be that the builders adds the version17:41
hannoschit's a bit of a rare use-case. I can look at it myself if you think it's easy enough17:42
hannoschjust wondering if it's worth the effort17:42
agroszerlemme check the repo17:43
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agroszerhannosch, I think you're good to go17:44
agroszerand add the required minVersion and maxVersion17:44
hannoschok, cool. I'll try and you will see it break ;)17:45
agroszergo for it17:46
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agroszerhannosch, don't forget the pypi perm17:47
hannoschagroszer: ok, committed and permission granted17:49
hannoschthere's no eggs missing right now, so it probably won't do anything17:49
CIA-94tseaver * r114237 ZODB/ Add missing bootstrap.17:50
CIA-94hannosch * r114238 /Sandbox/adamg/zope.wineggbuilder/trunk/rackspace.ini: Screw up the winbot ;)17:50
agroszerhannosch, you can force a build if you login via RDP, fire up firefox via localhost:800917:50
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hannoschagroszer: ok. will have to do that later. I don't have RDP setup on my iMac, only on my macbook at home17:52
agroszernp, you'll see tomorrow morning17:52
wiggyhannosch:  what is this? people are using desktops instead of lugging around laptops at jarn now? or just you?17:53
hannoschwiggy: both Denys and me are using iMac's17:53
hannoschfor quite a while now. the screens are just so much better17:53
hannoschand we have two more iMac's in the pair programming rooms17:53
agroszer24" ?17:54
hannosch27" 2560*1440 resolution17:55
Charlie_Xexternal keyboards and screens are so much more ergonomical.17:56
agroszerthat just rulez compared to a laptop screen17:56
wiggyhannosch:  is there a trick to debugging zope errors in a doctest?17:56
hannoschCharlie_X: everyone else uses external 24" screens with external mouse / keyboard17:57
hannoschwiggy: rewrite them as a non-doctest?17:57
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wiggyhannosch:  I have non-doctests for the code path which don't fail :(17:57
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hannoschwell. remove the doctests then?17:58
Charlie_Xhannosch: I much prefer a tablet over a mouse. My Bamboo touch will also let you use your fingers but that teaches one the advantages of the pencil.17:58
agroszerwiggy, I used to do a >>> pdb.set_trace(), then a breakpoint where necessary17:58
agroszeractually not with pdb, but similar17:58
wiggyagroszer:  you have to step 15 levels through mechanize if you do that, not ideal :(17:59
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Charlie_Xagroszer: really only those few lines need translating? I'll get that done this evening.17:59
hannoschwiggy: this is only a doctest or also a zope.testbrowser one?17:59
wiggyalso zope.testbrowser18:00
agroszerCharlie_X, yup18:00
wiggyit's a story for a website18:00
hannoschyou remember that browser.handleErrors = False thing, right?18:00
Charlie_XCurrently far too distracted by Tour de France. How cruel of the organisers to put include bits of Paris-Roubaix...18:00
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agroszerwiggy, put the breakpoint after it stops to the right place18:00
hannoschwiggy: ah. I think the spelling is even correct. gives you a proper error message instead of a 50018:00
Theuni1Goooood morning18:00
agroszeryah, afternoon18:01
hannoschTheuni1: good evening?18:01
Charlie_XTheuni1: thanks for writing my summary for me. Meant to do it last night but you beat me to it.18:01
agroszermorning was around 14 hours ago18:01
Theuni1Charlie_X: no worries18:01
Theuni1hannosch: good as well :)18:01
Theuni1First topic: use of VCS properties in code files18:01
Theuni1There was a mailing list discussion here:
Charlie_XTheuni1: date is wrong18:02
wiggyI'm +1 on removing them18:02
Theuni1And I think the question was whether we want them to be used, where we need to communicate this and whether we want to actively remove them or just ignore existing ones and not do anything about their existence right now.18:02
Theuni1Charlie_X: thanks, just saw that. will clean that up18:02
Charlie_XFor those that aren't on the CMF list. The issue was raised there and Tres provided a cogent reason for removinf $Id$ etc,18:03
agroszerthe only use I see for that might be in released eggs18:03
agroszerless digging through svn logs18:03
hannoschI think they serve no purpose anymore, I'm removing them whenever I see them in Zope2 code18:03
TresEquisagroszer: but released eggs have "which file" metadata in them already18:03
TresEquisbecause they are installed18:03
TresEquisthe original purpose was to debug what non-released checkout was installed on some site18:04
Charlie_XAny source that gets changed with $ marking is likely to cause problems.18:04
planetzopebotzc.catalog 1.4.4 (PyPI recent updates)
TresEquisin CVS, which had no other way to track that18:04
agroszerthen just remove it (tm)18:04
TresEquisI would say we drop mention of using them in the docs18:04
TresEquisand remove them opportunistically, like any other janitorial cleanup18:04
Theuni1I'm for the opportunistic removal, but I'd mention that we don't like them in the docs.18:05
TresEquisok, sure18:05
Charlie_XTresEquis: I would make a note of not using them (and why) in the docs.18:05
TresEquisI don't know where all the coding standards docs are18:05
hannosch ?18:06
hannoschthat doesn't have the $id bit anymore18:06
Theuni1there's two docs it seems18:06
Theuni1I don't see any mention of the properties in either place18:07
wiggyfunny how that second doc does not work for grok18:07
Theuni1wiggy: hmm?18:07
wiggyTheuni1:  package layout uses a single templates/ directory18:08
wiggyTheuni1:  grokcore.view still does not support that afaik18:08
Charlie_XAt the start of the python-style doc seems best. It's an annotation rather than an instruction "a note on version control metadata"...18:08
wiggyI also I see people actively moving templates into the same dir as code18:08
Charlie_Xwiggy we're doing that in the CMF18:09
wiggyCharlie_X:  you're violating the development culture then I suppose :)18:09
Theuni1sounds like the rules are one ore more of: not known, undiscoverable, ambiguous, wrong18:09
Charlie_XReal, rebel me.18:09
TresEquiswiggy: that part of that doc is not all that well vetted18:09
TresEquisit was adapted from the repoze dev docs18:09
TresEquiswhere that *is* a requirement18:09
wiggyTresEquis:  perhaps it should be removed?18:09
TresEquisor extended to note other patterns18:10
CIA-94ctheune * r114239 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/zope-dev/zope-dev-20100706.rst: Fix date header of todays meeting.18:10
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Charlie_XNicely modular code shouldn't need too many folders. and are fine next to each other.18:10
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Theuni1anyway, we're straying off the agenda18:11
Theuni1everyone in here is fine with the decision of not adding VCS properties anymore and removing them opportunistically18:11
agroszervote now18:11
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Theuni1sounds solid18:12
TresEquisjust checked in a note to that effect on the ztk docs18:13
Theuni1next: expectations for the summit18:13
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Theuni1sorry for not having been there last week18:13
Theuni1I see that hannosch's input on the mailing list spurred discussions18:14
hannoschyeah. people trying to solve problems, exactly what we didn't want :)18:14
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Charlie_XI want more compelling stories for Zope18:15
Theuni1I found both your input and martijn's helpful.18:15
Theuni1Charlie_X: yeah, i wrote that down from last week. what did you mean by that?18:15
hannoschlike a better site (being worked on) that has use-cases and success stories?18:16
Charlie_XIt actually arose in response to Adam's suggestion on "what's missing"?18:16
agroszeryah, documentation-wise we don't look so good18:17
Theuni1Hmm. And that kinda has been that way for a looooong time. I think figuring out how to "finally" fix this would be *very* helpful.18:18
d2mhannosch: i'd like to add developer portraits, company profiles and product use-cases to the new site18:18
Charlie_XIt's probably indicative of my lack of skills but I'm still impressed by Philikon's wiki presentation at Europython in Geneva 4 years ago. Usually, with Zope we don't need "more" we just need to think a little.18:18
Theuni1Charlie_X: I actually would be interested in the part that Martijn indicated about being open to experimentation and then folding together common experiences into common code.18:19
Theuni1A frontier I'd like to see something happening is support for various HTML 5 technologies that require assistence from the server, like event handling.18:19
d2mhannosch: depends on if we agree to do so and if there is a budget to produce/maintain the content18:19
Charlie_XLess code, more story.18:20
Theuni1Charlie_X: are you interested in having less code or do you just want more story and think that we need to rebalance efforts?18:20
Charlie_XI want more story. We shouldn't actively be looking for more code, except for stuff that we can't do now.18:21
TresEquisI'd rather see us focus on higher quality code, than more code18:22
Theuni1TresEquis: ;)18:22
Charlie_XA possible side effect will be more narrative documentation which should help us all.18:22
TresEquistoo damned much abandonware in the repository now as it is18:22
Theuni1I hope that no one is there who actually wants more code. But I'd like to support some more use cases at some point.18:22
Charlie_X+1 on that TresEquis18:22
Theuni1TresEquis: true18:22
Charlie_XTheuni1: we should actively be finding and describing use cases. Then "winnow" any code, ruthlessly.18:23
Theuni1that reminds me of something that wolfgang schnerring wanted to do at some point: structure the X large areas of web development into a systematic overview and map our packages in there18:24
hannoschwe are reducing code quite a lot. once we start deprecating and moving stuff out of the ZTK for good, we have a lot less code18:24
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Theuni1anything else about the summit? I'll keep gathering potential topics for the summit.18:24
TresEquiswe have at least 429 abandoned projects by one standard ;)18:24
Charlie_XI love the explanatory parts of the printed version of the Python Cookbook and I'd like to see something similar for Zope.18:24
Theuni1TresEquis: heh ;)18:24
Theuni1I hope you guys are planning to join us in September! (Remember to mail us at to tell about your participation!)18:24
* Charlie_X is coming18:25
* hannosch is coming, didn't sent mail yet18:25
Theuni1a last topic before going meta18:25
Theuni1hannosch: hush hush :)18:25
Theuni1Charlie_X asked for this topic for today:18:25
Theuni1We can add the "c-optimisations considered optional and how to configure   them" to that list.18:25
Theuni1I didn't follow that discussion, so I'll open the floor for Charlie18:25
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Charlie_XThis was just in response to the i8nmessageid thread. But also relevant for windows builds, I guess.18:26
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TresEquisThis is about making projects which have C optiimizations, or other optional add-ons, installable on as many platforms as possible18:26
TresEquisGAE, Jythin, IronPython, Windows18:26
Charlie_XA C-optimisation broke BFG on Jython. It was then pointed out that the optimisation was optional and can be handled by distribute.18:26
agroszerTresEquis, you can tick windows18:27
* Theuni1 gets reminded of the somewhat awkawd GSOC import-try-except madness18:27
Theuni1hmm. awkward.18:27
TresEquisagroszer: only for projects in the "supported" set18:27
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TresEquisCharlie_X: not 'distribute', but 'distutils2'18:28
TresEquisneither setuptools nor distribute has a good way to spell that yet18:28
Charlie_XThanks, TresEquis.18:28
TresEquisshort of ugly stuff in the setup.py18:28
TresEquisI have a partial solution in zope.optionalextension18:28
TresEquisIt works on "bare" distutils, but breaks on setuptools / distribute18:29
agroszerwhat do you consider unsupported?18:29
TresEquisdue to something weird in the way they monkeypatch distutils18:29
TresEquisagroszer: those 429 packages ;)18:29
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TresEquispretty much anything outside ZTK / zopeapp or one of the three frameworks18:30
Theuni1hmm. what's the baseline for the issue for today?18:30
* hannosch welcomes Tres work and encourage him to continue18:31
Charlie_XI guess that we are working on an active solution for the problem.18:31
TresEquiszope.i18nmessageid 3.5.0 worked on Jython, GAE, etc18:31
CIA-94tseaver * r114240 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/codingstyle/python-style.rst: Note change in policy about keyword expansion.18:31
TresEquisbut that broke in a recent cleanup18:31
Theuni1TresEquis: and you're trying to extract the mechanism that made it work into a separate package?18:32
Theuni1i'm happy with that18:32
hannoschI'm also +1 on trying to support alternative platforms like Jython and GAE in general18:32
TresEquisand get setuptools / distribute not to screw it up ;(18:32
Theuni1official part over, now for some meta/bikeshedding18:32
Theuni1Any input on the meeting itself?18:32
agroszerquite some folks today18:33
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Charlie_XYes, makes a change from the "Three Stooges" that we often are.18:33
Theuni1true, i'm happy about that. last weeks were a lot more quiet18:33
Theuni1is that a "we had luck and have time today" effect?18:33
Theuni1is there anything to make this happen more often? :)18:33
davisaglithis is my first time listening in. I like the format, but the time is non-ideal for me on the US West Coast (UTC-7)18:33
Charlie_XMaybe Hanno's suggestion to give us official status helps.18:33
dataflakeit's a "i signed up on the Doodle and cannot back out" effec ;-)18:34
Theuni1dataflake: there was no doodle for this meeting :P18:34
dataflakedang, i'm getting all those doodles confused.18:34
Theuni1davisagli: right. the australians are off even worse ;)18:34
Charlie_Xdataflake: that is biting me for next week.18:34
davisagliTheuni1: impossible to please everyone, I realize18:34
dataflakeCharlie_X: next week?18:34
agroszerthere's no perfect time...18:34
Theuni1davisagli: right. i also have the feeling that sticking with a time for weekly meetings is better than shuffling every time.18:35
Charlie_Xbug day - I'm actually flying on Wednesday18:35
davisagliTheuni1: +118:35
hannoschI think we should take some topics to the mailing list. especially if attendance is low18:35
Theuni1the monthly meetings of the zope foundation move around as we do have people from US/AU/EU there but then again we have to agree on every date individually anyway18:35
TresEquisI've been travelling a bit18:36
Theuni1hannosch: any idea how? i tried getting the mailing list involved a bit more by making even shorter summaries and asking explicit questions there18:36
Theuni1TresEquis: i see18:36
Theuni1me too, makes it really hard to attend :)18:36
Charlie_XWe can flag items on the ML and get the decision making done here.18:36
Theuni1I also do have the issue that attending after a whole day of work is somewhat tiring every now and then.18:36
Theuni1Charlie_X: i think hannosch wants the other way around.18:36
hannoschTheuni1: not sure how. zope-dev seems to be awfully quiet these days. which is a good change after all the bikeshedding :)18:37
Theuni1hannosch: i don't even find it that quiet, more, uhm ... focused.18:37
hannoschright. less politics, more hard technical topics18:37
Charlie_XTheuni1: decision making on the ML doesn't work. It never ends.18:38
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hannoschok. I'll withdraw my ML suggestion. I don't know how to make that work either18:38
Theuni1hannosch: i do think there's a point, though18:38
Theuni1i'm not sure how to make the integration more smooth either, though18:38
Theuni1lets keep it in mind but drop it :)18:39
Charlie_Xhannosch: I like the idea of launching a topic on the ML in advance of an IRC meeting which will take a decision.18:39
hannoschthere is. but let's talk about it over a beer in September18:39
Charlie_XLike we did with VCS markers18:39
Charlie_XPrepare to be shocked18:39
* Theuni1 puts his sunglasses on18:40
* Charlie_X is drinking alcohol-free beer in the heat18:40
Theuni1Does anyone have any input for me about organizing the topics? I'm getting tired of organizing text files, but poking blueprints is also annoying.18:40
Charlie_Xhannosch: any "policy" decision often needs more than 24 hours to think over.18:41
hannoschTheuni1: I think text files are the best we can do :)18:41
Charlie_XWe've had discussion today, again, about exception in doctests. I think we should move to some formal policy on that as they are evil.18:41
Theuni1yeah, i was afraid to hear that ... :)18:42
hannoschCharlie_X: we tried that. doctests is a bikeshed topic. some people love them, some hate them18:42
Theuni1any other meta topics about the meeting?18:42
TresEquishannosch: the people who have to fix the tests which break should win18:42
TresEquisthe doctest lovers need to vote with sweat ;)18:43
hannoschTresEquis: sure18:43
* hannosch is out of meta topics18:43
TresEquisJ1m has advocated a mode which removes the exception rendering from doctests18:43
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TresEquiswhile still being able to make assertions about the message, args, etc18:44
agroszeranything that standardizes the output is good18:44
TresEquismaybe we add an 'assertRaisesEx' API to zope.testing18:44
Theuni1ok, i'll close the meeting now, then. the doctest stuff will be ignored in the minutes. ;)18:44
Theuni1thanks for attending, you've been a great crowd!18:44
TresEquiswhich both does the assertion and returns the exception object18:44
Charlie_XThat sounds interesting.18:45
hannoschsounds like the context manager in Python 2.7's unittest18:45
TresEquisabout 5 minutes worth of coding18:45
TresEquishannosch: yup18:45
Charlie_XBut I still don't get why people would want to do that in doctests.18:45
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Theuni1Charlie_X: so your doodle is effectively completely red even though you set wednesday on available?18:48
baijumhannosch: I am struggling with another Windows service issue now :( If you have any pointers please let know.18:48
_mup_Bug #596839: zope2instance fails to run as Windows Service under Python 2.6 and Zope 2.12 <collective.buildout:Confirmed> <>18:48
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Charlie_XTheuni1: I got Tuesday and Wednesday confused. :-( As a result I'm planning to do some lonely bugfixing on Tuesday.18:52
Theuni1you're welcome to do so :)18:52
Charlie_Xhannosch: I had to manually install distribute for the zope.formlib tests on Python 2.7. Do we need to lobby for a 2.7 egg?18:53
agroszerCharlie_X, PJE is rather ... on that18:53
agroszerI asked for a windoze .exe for 2.718:54
agroszerwrong package18:54
Charlie_Xsame problem18:54
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agroszeryes but same problem18:54
agroszermaybe Tarek is easier on that18:54
* Theuni1 heads off homeward18:55
hannoschbaijum: oh, I know. zope2instance is broken on Windows as well. I tried working on this today - got as far as making all the tests pass18:55
hannoschbaijum: but then couldn't get a Python with pywin32 installed18:55
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agroszerhannosch, which win and pywin32?18:56
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hannoschagroszer: my Windows 7 64bit machine. I have self compiled Python which supports cross-compilation form the same install18:56
hannoschbut trying to compile pywin32 yourself is a pain18:57
agroszerops, with's everything works ok18:57
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baijumhannosch: Windows service is working fine, if we use "mkzopeinstance" script (entry point) but not with that recipe18:58
hannoschyeah. I tried installing that, but then I get OverflowErrors from int / long conversions in C code. so something was wrong with the 32/64 bit stuff18:58
Charlie_Xagroszer: distribute works fine although I see there is no egg. It's just I couldn't seem to get bootstrap to want to use it.18:58
* Charlie_X has consigned setuptools to dev/null18:58
agroszerhannosch, which python version?18:59
hannoschbaijum: right. sidnei reported that the service also works when calling "bin/instance fg" internally, but not "bin/instance console"18:59
hannoschagroszer: 2.6.518:59
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hannoschZope 2 is only Python 2.6 :)18:59
* agroszer is not so into Zope218:59
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hannoschyou don't have to18:59
* hannosch has no idea about BlueBream :)19:00
* baijum is a "Zope 2" only user professionally 19:00
hannoschwe only use Plone and repoze.bfg :)19:00
hannoschbaijum: sidnei told me that bin/instance console doesn't work, as it replaces the wrapper process with the Zope one. On Windows you really need to start a subprocess. otherwise the service thinks it's being restarted or so19:02
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hannoschso some other variation of os.execvpe or whatever19:02
hannoschand then again passing on os.environ and sys.path19:02
agroszeryou might want to look into z3c.recipe.winservice19:02
hannoschright. we basically have the same code already in Zope2 itself and the plone.recipe.zeoserver recipe19:03
hannoschit's just a matter of adjusting the zope2instance specific bits19:03
davisaglihannosch: btw, I started looking at RestrictedPython for python 2.7 yesterday. So far I have some idea how the thing works and have a list of items from the python changelog to look into, which I'll do as I have time19:04
hannoschit got refactored, so there's no runzope or zopectl scripts anymore19:04
hannoschdavisagli: awesome!19:04
baijumhannosch: thanks for the pointers! I will try these ideas ...19:07
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CIA-94jim * r114241 zc.ngi/src/zc/ngi/ Updated hreader19:48
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CIA-94adamg * r114242 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/process/buildbots.rst: add infos about message_formatter, sample bot configs20:06
CIA-94hannosch * r114243 Zope/sources.cfg: Added sources entry for nt_svcutils20:06
CIA-94hannosch * r114244 Zope/versions.cfg: We share a common toolchain with the ZTK20:06
CIA-94hannosch * r114245 Zope/sources.cfg: Use the simple svn protocol in sources, Stefan and me couldn't make the nightly bot to work with svn+ssh so far20:06
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CIA-94hannosch * r114246 zope.exceptions/ Updated bootstrap20:23
CIA-94hannosch * r114247 zope.exceptions/ (9 files in 3 dirs): PEP8 cleanup and removed obsolete build infrastructure files.20:23
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CIA-94hannosch * r114248 zope.exceptions/ (2 files in 2 dirs):20:35
CIA-94Fixed tests to work under Python 2.7. In 2.7 "exec" works like the normal Python20:35
CIA-94compiler and automatically assumes a newline at the end of a file. Before Python20:35
CIA-942.7 exec required an explicit newline. By using an explicit newline the20:35
CIA-94exception is the same under all versions.20:35
CIA-94hannosch * r114249 zope.exceptions/ (CHANGES.txt Prepare zope.exceptions
CIA-94hannosch * r114250 /zope.exceptions/tags/3.6.1: Tagged zope.exceptions
CIA-94hannosch * r114251 zope.exceptions/ (CHANGES.txt Bump version20:35
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CIA-94hannosch * r114252 zopetoolkit/ztk-versions.cfg: Update zope.exceptions to make it compatible with Python 2.720:48
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CIA-94hannosch * r114253 zope.formlib/ (src/zope/formlib/tests/ CHANGES.txt): Fixed tests to pass under Python 2.7. Extending the already existing renormalizing approach for similar cases.21:01
CIA-94hannosch * r114254 zope.formlib/ ( CHANGES.txt): Prepare zope.formlib
CIA-94hannosch * r114255 /zope.formlib/tags/4.0.4: Tagged zope.formlib
CIA-94hannosch * r114256 zope.formlib/ ( CHANGES.txt): Bump version21:01
CIA-94hannosch * r114257 zopetoolkit/ztk-versions.cfg: Update zope.formlib to let tests pass under Python 2.721:01
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CIA-94hannosch * r114258 zope.proxy/ (CHANGES.txt src/zope/proxy/tests/ Make tests compatible with Python 2.7.21:17
CIA-94hannosch * r114259 zope.proxy/ (CHANGES.txt Prepare zope.proxy
CIA-94hannosch * r114260 /zope.proxy/tags/3.6.1: Tagged zope.proxy
CIA-94hannosch * r114261 zope.proxy/ (CHANGES.txt Bump version21:17
CIA-94hannosch * r114262 zopetoolkit/ztk-versions.cfg: New zope.proxy all bin/test-ztk tests pass under Python 2.721:17
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CIA-94trollfot * r114263 grok/src/grok/ (ftesting.zcml ftests/security/
CIA-94`index.html` is now the explicit default view name.21:33
CIA-94It was previously set up in that we no longer depend on.21:33
CIA-94This fixed the test failure on the Exception view.21:33
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CIA-94trollfot * r114264 grok/ (src/grok/ src/grok/ CHANGES.txt
CIA-94Fixed the Exception view test failure.21:48
CIA-94Removed unused packages dependencies.21:48
CIA-94The flash method of the grok.View now uses the grokcore.message package.21:48
CIA-94Unused imports have been removed (some deprecated imports have been left for backward compatibility)21:48
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CIA-94hannosch * r114265 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/releaseteam/meeting-20100630.rst: Added URL to the mail22:03
planetzopebotzope.exceptions 3.6.1 (PyPI recent updates)
planetzopebotzope.formlib 4.0.4 (PyPI recent updates)
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CIA-94hannosch * r114266 zc.buildout/bootstrap/ ( Following today's zope-dev decision, remove some $Id markers22:17
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CIA-94hannosch * r114267 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/releaseteam/ (package-usage.rst index.rst): Converted Tres PDF into a simple rst file, included Plone and updated to current ZTK definition22:46
CIA-94hannosch * r114268 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/releaseteam/package-usage.rst: Noted the command I used to check for distributions23:00
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CIA-94hannosch * r114269 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/releaseteam/package-usage.rst: Updated usage for Plone 4.0b4 - there's still some usage left ;)23:16
CIA-94hannosch * r114270 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/releaseteam/package-usage.rst: Less general title23:16
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CIA-94hannosch * r114271 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/releaseteam/package-usage.rst: Consistency! Use a lowercase x23:30
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