IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-08-31

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CIA-7srichter * r116041 z3c.setuptools_mercurial/ (5 files in 2 dirs):00:16
CIA-7- Bug: Improve the Buildout support. Thanks to Gary Poster for helping00:16
CIA-7me out.00:16
CIA-7- Get ready for release.00:16
CIA-7srichter * r116042 /z3c.setuptools_mercurial/tags/1.1.1: Create a release tag.00:16
CIA-7srichter * r116043 z3c.setuptools_mercurial/ (CHANGES.txt vb00:16
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CIA-7jim * r116044 ZODB/src/ (CHANGES.txt ZEO/ ZEO/
CIA-7Bugs fixed01:27
CIA-7- Shutting down a process while committing a transaction could cause01:27
CIA-7ZEO client caches to have invalid data. This, in turn caused stale01:27
CIA-7data to remain in the cache until it was updated.01:27
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gwhi... quick question around with the zope.interface or zope.component packages. Is it possible to find all Interfaces an object is adaptable to?03:20
mcdonc_not quite what you asked i guess03:38
mcdonc_ may help03:38
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gwmcdonc_: thanks, I'v found a solution... it's not very efficient, but it works.... I had a look at plone.customerise.... it asks the global site manager for all registered adapters....04:12
mcdonc_gw: good.. sorry, those were guesses04:14
gwmcdonc_: all what I do now is check the required attribute for each registration, and if it fits my criteria (i check len=1 and interface directly provided by object), and then take the provided attribute of the registration...04:14
gwmcdonc_: no problem....I actually prefer a try than general silence :)... thanks a lot (it's an interesting site :) )04:15
mcdonc_sounds reasonable04:15
mcdonc_yes, that book is a good resource04:16
gwdoes the book follow current development?04:16
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mcdonc_gw: not really, but there isn't much in zope.component anyway04:26
mcdonc_it's "done" more or less04:26
gwyes that's true... but from time to time there is this little detail..... nothing major... shouldn't be a problem...04:27
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mcdonc_gw: yes... for those cases, i read the source04:35
mcdonc_that document is pretty accurate though04:36
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mcdonc_although lots of times its just easier to pull up the source anyway04:36
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gwhehe... true....the old saying: grep is your friend :)04:52
mcdonc_zope has a longstanding culture of rtsl04:55
mcdonc_i'm happy to have been a part of it, now gimme the docs ;-)04:55
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gwthat's maybe one of the drawbacks of python... it's not so well suited for literal programming... or it's advantage, that it's just not that necessary as with other languages :)04:58
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mcdonc_sphinx makes it tolerable these days05:05
mcdonc_(to do the docs, i mean)05:05
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mcdonc_before sphinx, it was a wasteland05:06
mcdonc_(and most of the zope code predates sphinx)05:06
gwsphinx is really nice... yes05:06
mcdonc_i'm a sphinx fanbody05:07
gwhowever the zope attempt to serve doc-strings as documentation pages was rather nice too... (the majro idea)05:07
gwi think in zope3 it was ++doc++ or something like that...05:08
mcdonc_yes, srichter added that iirc05:09
mcdonc_(he of "zope3 content management" or so)05:10
mcdonc_i'm mostly a sphinx fan because it allowed me to write and publish a tech book05:11
mcdonc_it does require some attitude adjustment05:11
mcdonc_but mostly for the better05:11
gwI really did like the literal programming in haskell..... you write your document in latex, and also have (more or less) readable source code.....05:12
gwmixes really well....05:12
gwand did not need any adjustment from both worlds.... really impressive....05:12
mcdonc_i'm ignorant of haskell, but i believe it05:12
gwit was a curious excurs for me :)05:13
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gwand I had to write a paper.... so I got both done at once..... :)05:13
mcdonc_good old help(someobject) is also useful05:13
gwthat was probably the inspiration for zope's ++doc++ (and predecessor)05:14
mcdonc_docstrings are a great idea05:15
mcdonc_(or at least the casual spelling of same)05:16
mcdonc_shame interfaces never caught on really05:16
mcdonc_they are also useful docs if maintained05:16
mcdonc_but pdb tells all05:17
gw:)... in most cases they are ok (I reall like them a s quick example in the code).... and most people put them into separate documents if they are used for extensive testing documentation.05:17
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gwI think it's time to improve the standard pdb interface a bit..... :)05:18
gw(iirc this was part of some google code project wasn't it?)05:18
mcdonc_i'm not sure05:19
mcdonc_i'm pretty used to the spartan-ness at this point, but i know there are various wrappers for it05:19
mcdonc_wingide has one05:19
gwipdb should work too :)05:19
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mcdonc_i think if anybody changed the standard ui, there would be an insurrection ;-)05:22
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gwcould well be :)05:23
mcdonc_as thomas friedman says, "typewriters!  typewriters!  typewriters!"05:24
mcdonc_(insert defuct technology as required)05:24
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gwI mean the kiss principle is almost always the most appropriate choice.. but... sometimes it would be nice when it's not too simple :)05:32
gwwell... we'll see what happens.... I am sure the standard interface will not survive another 10 years :)05:32
gwat least not as default05:33
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mcdonc_we'll all have flying cars by then anyway05:37
mcdonc_it wont matter05:37
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bhagatIs there a way to view & edit a ZPT  file in ZMI ?,  the .zpt file  which is inside a file based zope product.08:31
bhagatlike   obj.manage_addDTMLMethod(id,title,file),  this will add  a DTML file  inside ZMI. which is the equivalent for   zpt to do the  same?08:33
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CIA-7hannosch * r116045 Products.ZSQLMethods/CHANGES.txt: Whitespace10:02
CIA-7hannosch * r116046 Products.ZSQLMethods/ (CHANGES.txt Prepare Products.ZSQLMethods
CIA-7hannosch * r116047 /Products.ZSQLMethods/tags/2.13.3: Tagged Products.ZSQLMethods
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CIA-7hannosch * r116045 Products.ZSQLMethods/CHANGES.txt: Whitespace10:24
CIA-7hannosch * r116046 Products.ZSQLMethods/ (CHANGES.txt Prepare Products.ZSQLMethods
CIA-7hannosch * r116047 /Products.ZSQLMethods/tags/2.13.3: Tagged Products.ZSQLMethods
CIA-7hannosch * r116048 Products.ZSQLMethods/ (CHANGES.txt Bump version10:24
CIA-7hannosch 2.12 * r116049 Zope/ (doc/CHANGES.rst versions.cfg): Update to Products.ZSQLMethods = 2.13.310:24
CIA-7hannosch 2.12 * r116050 Zope/doc/CHANGES.rst: Punctuation10:24
CIA-7hannosch * r116051 Acquisition/ (CHANGES.txt src/Acquisition/Acquisition.h): LP 623665: Fixed typo in Acquisition.h.10:24
CIA-7hannosch * r116052 Acquisition/ (CHANGES.txt Prepare Acquisition
CIA-7hannosch * r116053 /Acquisition/tags/2.13.4: Tagged Acquisition
CIA-7hannosch * r116054 Acquisition/ (CHANGES.txt Bump version10:25
CIA-7hannosch 2.12 * r116055 Zope/ (doc/CHANGES.rst versions.cfg): Acquisition = 2.13.410:25
CIA-7hannosch * r116056 Zope/ (doc/CHANGES.rst versions.cfg): Merged c116055 from 2.12 branch10:25
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CIA-7ctheune * r116057 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/zope-dev/zope-dev-20100824.rst: update report for last week11:18
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CIA-7ctheune * r116058 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/zope-dev/ (zope-dev-20100831.rst index.rst): add agenda for today11:33
CIA-7ctheune * r116059 /zopetoolkit/doc/source/zope-dev/ (archive.rst index.rst):11:33
CIA-7add agenda for today, put old meetings into archive to save space on the11:33
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CIA-7wichert * r116060 Products.GenericSetup/Products/GenericSetup/www/sutCompare.zpt: Fix XML syntax error13:01
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bhagat  obj.manage_addDTMLMethod(id,title,file),  this will add  a DTML document  in ZMI. which is the equivalent for   zpt to do the  same?13:10
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Moo^_^does unrestrictedTraverse() support ".." travering to parent?15:07
bhagatmanage_addDTMLMethod  for DTML       what the equivalent for zpt ?15:10
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__mac__manage_addPageTemplateForm would have been the answer15:33
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planetzopebotPersonal: Back to the city life (..: hannosch :..)
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CIA-7jim jim-readCurrent * r116061 ZODB/src/ZODB/ ( tests/ Fixed the signature for checkCurrentSerialInTransaction.17:52
* Charlie_X looks expectantly18:00
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Charlie_XI've got biscuits, you know.18:00
Charlie_XTheuni1: here?18:03
* agroszer sneaks up on biscuits18:06
agroszerthis is going to be a 1-on-1?18:07
* Charlie_X waves at everyone18:07
do3ccso us three I guess?18:07
Charlie_XI suppose things are spoiled with Hanno's pre-emptive e-mail18:08
Charlie_XLooks like it.18:08
Charlie_XLooking at the agenda - anything to say about supporting Python 2.7?18:08
do3cczodb does not support it yet18:09
do3ccat least under windows18:09
do3ccafpy has some testrunners already, so people can look there for failures18:10
Charlie_XThis would sound like a windows problem to me. We've been building "reward" on Python 2.7 + ZODB without problems.18:10
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do3ccwe will have tests for zodb on linux too. Soonishly18:12
Charlie_XOf course, that's not a real answer. I guess the question for the ZTK team is when Python 2.7 should be supported. 1.1 sounds reasonable for this.18:12
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Charlie_XNext - abandoned projects.18:13
Charlie_XI think this is really something for the summit but your ideas, please.18:13
do3cccan you elaborate?18:15
Charlie_XI think we might want to formalise what constitutes an abandoned project which allows us to drop it (from the ZTK or other Zope project).18:16
* agroszer looking at winbot/zodb18:16
Charlie_XBut I think this implies that we define what projects should be included in the first place. The less we include, the less we have to maintain.18:17
do3ccI think everybody will be pissed if we make the list very small soonishly18:17
do3ccno not everybody, but some18:17
do3ccThat might actually be an indicator18:18
do3ccif nobody objects, remove it18:18
Charlie_XThat's the sort of thing.18:18
do3ccI was thinking of saying that if it breaks tests for a long time, it should be removed, but I guess people will fix breaking tests.18:18
Charlie_XBut we should also set criteria for inclusion and maintenance.18:18
do3ccWhich does not mean, it is maintained18:19
Charlie_XSome stuff probably doesn't need much maintenance.18:19
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do3ccWell, but there should be somebody who understands the meaning of the code between the line18:19
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agroszerlike z3c.testsetup18:20
agroszerBB tests fail on it18:20
Charlie_XProjects for future inclusion should come with good documentation and tests.18:20
agroszerand noone answers my mail18:20
do3ccLets focus on exclusion fist18:20
Charlie_XI think the two are related and it's better to formulate a policy for inclusion which will help work out how to deal with "abandoned" stuff.18:21
do3ccok, with that in mind, I have an idea18:21
Charlie_XWhich is why I think this is a topic for the summit. It gets too ad hoc otherwise.18:21
agroszerthe policy is about staying in18:22
do3cchow about creating bars, and slowly raising bars for existing packages for staying included18:22
Charlie_Xagroszer: some of the stuff that is "in" probably shouldn't be.18:22
* agroszer already sees the flame18:22
Charlie_Xdo3cc: yes, that's the sort of thing.18:22
* Charlie_X is made out of Teflon18:22
do3ccwe make tight requirements, like in kyoto18:23
do3ccreduce non tested lines of code by 2% until 202018:23
Charlie_XSomething like that.18:24
agroszeryou got to measyre that first ;-)18:24
do3ccI believe that the actual bars should be discussion in public and be defined per package18:24
Charlie_XI guess if we can start adding some value to test results that will get easier. And once I get my nagging script to point at people that might encourage a greater sense of responsibility.18:24
do3ccmeasuring that is easy18:24
do3ccHow can one measure documentation improvement?18:25
do3cczope.component has many lines of documentation, but its really just tests18:25
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do3ccI have a greasemonkey script that hides testcode on pypi, then the documentation looks like a joke18:26
Charlie_XMeasuring documentation is more difficult but you've just hit the nail on the head.18:26
do3ccdid I? ;-)18:26
Charlie_XI think so, yes.18:27
do3ccMaybe counting the documentation to code ratio in checkins helps18:27
Charlie_XThe documentation should make some sense without tests.18:27
do3ccwe might refactor the packages and put clear test "documentation" in different files18:29
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do3ccthis then gets ignored for documentation to code ratio18:29
do3ccThen we can start measuring loc/lod and define a whished ratio for each package18:30
Charlie_XStart with a model package that others should strive to emulate.18:30
Charlie_XDocumentation after the fact is always going to be a problem, if not the problem.18:30
do3cchonestly, I feel this will make ztk very small any way18:30
Charlie_XThat's a good thing.18:30
do3ccso, whos gonna document zope.component?18:31
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Charlie_XGood question.18:31
Charlie_XAs I said I think this is something for the summit.18:31
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Charlie_XSo, pretty much out of time.18:32
do3ccI propose we ask on the mailing list18:32
agroszerthat gives a flame18:33
agroszerfor sure18:33
do3ccwhat would people want as requirements to stay in the ztk list18:33
agroszerand no results18:33
CIA-7jim jim-readCurrent * r116062 ZODB/src/ (ZODB/ CHANGES.txt): - Removed untested unsupported dbmstorage fossil.18:33
Charlie_Xagroszer: never know till you try. I'll drop an e-mail to the list.18:33
agroszersomething like this was already a topic as I remember18:34
agroszeraround the time Martijn "quit"18:34
Charlie_Xagroszer: you also have your MS developer licence now as well, don't you?18:34
do3ccagroszer: on the other side, if you try to avoid the discussion, people might ignore you because they believe you want to mandate something to them over their head18:34
Charlie_XSome things are worth repeating.18:34
agroszerok, repeat18:34
agroszerCharlie_X, yup I got the licence18:35
agroszeryou can put the x there ;-)18:35
Charlie_XWe'll have a few good heads at the summit to discuss stuff but maybe starting the ball rolling isn't a bad idea.18:35
Charlie_Xagroszer: I'll review posts from the end of last year to see I don't raise too many of the wrong issues.18:35
Charlie_XOkay, thank your for your time and input.18:37
do3ccthank you for being the mediator18:37
agroszerthx, till next week18:37
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CIA-7jim jim-readCurrent * r116063 ZODB/src/ZODB/ Fixed interface.18:49
CIA-7jim jim-readCurrent * r116064 ZODB/src/ZODB/tests/ Use read conflict errors.18:49
CIA-7jim jim-readCurrent * r116065 ZODB/src/ZODB/ Be more flexible about arguments.18:49
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CIA-7menesis * r116066 van.pydeb/van/pydeb/
CIA-7Change comment to state that dependency on namespace packages is needed19:04
CIA-7rather than it can be removed later.19:04
planetzopebotPlone Conference 2010 Talks Submission Deadline Extended (Plone News)
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CIA-7jim jim-readCurrent * r116067 ZODB/src/ZODB/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Updated checkCurrentSerialInTransaction for the basic storages.22:52
CIA-7jim jim-readCurrent * r116068 ZODB/src/ZEO/ (5 files):22:52
CIA-7Updated checkCurrentSerialInTransaction for ZEO.22:52
CIA-7Also did some storage server implementation cleanup, removing some22:52
CIA-7dups and folding a small module into
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