IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2010-10-19

donriHelp please: zc.lockfile.LockError: Couldn't lock u'var/db/development.fs.lock'00:03
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donriThe IOError is: [Errno 11] Resource temporarily unavailable00:17
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CIA-94tseaver * r117736 Zope/src/Zope2/Startup/
CIA-94Fix ``zopectl start`` on non-Windows platforms.00:23
CIA-94Fixes LP #628448.00:23
CIA-94Forward-port from 2.13 branch.00:23
_mup_Bug #628448: zopectl start - doen't work in Zope2-2.13.0a3 <Zope 2:Fix Committed by tseaver> <>00:23
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donriWorks fine in unit tests but not in the development server :(00:31
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CIA-94icemac * r117737 z3c.schema2xml/ (buildout.cfg CHANGES.txt
CIA-94* Updated tests to newer Grok version (1.1).09:53
CIA-94* Run tests against lxml
CIA-94* Added test extra to declare test dependency on ````.09:53
CIA-94icemac * r117738 z3c.schema2xml/ (LICENSE.txt COPYRIGHT.txt): Conform to repository policy.09:53
CIA-94icemac * r117739 z3c.schemadiff/ (4 files in 2 dirs):09:53
CIA-94- Using Python's ``doctest`` module instead of depreacted09:53
CIA-94- Added test extra to declare test dependency on ``zope.component [test]``.09:53
CIA-94icemac * r117740 z3c.schemadiff/ (COPYRIGHT.txt LICENSE.txt Conform to repository policy.09:53
CIA-94icemac * r117741 z3c.searcher/ (CHANGES.txt src/z3c/searcher/
CIA-94- Fixed test dependencies, so tests run with current version of ``z3c.form``.09:53
CIA-94- Using Python's ``doctest`` module instead of depreacted ``zope.testing.doctest``.09:53
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CIA-94icemac * r117742 z3c.searchfilter/ (COPYRIGHT.txt LICENSE.txt): Conform to repository policy.10:18
CIA-94icemac * r117743 z3c.schema2xml/CHANGES.txt: added version number10:18
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CIA-94janwijbrand * r117744 zc.catalog/ move change history near the top of the page for easier access10:41
CIA-94janwijbrand * r117745 zc.catalog/ (CHANGES.txt Preparing release 1.510:41
CIA-94janwijbrand * r117746 /zc.catalog/tags/1.5: Tagging 1.510:41
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CIA-94janwijbrand * r117747 zc.catalog/ (CHANGES.txt Back to development: 1.611:06
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saju_mwhich are the popular python modules used for Social Network Authentication11:31
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saju_mi want to login my site using facebook, twitter or gmail account11:33
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CIA-94janjaapdriessen * r117748 z3c.flashmessage/ (CHANGES.txt Preparing release 1.211:47
CIA-94janjaapdriessen * r117749 /z3c.flashmessage/tags/1.2: Tagging 1.211:47
CIA-94janjaapdriessen * r117750 z3c.flashmessage/ (CHANGES.txt Back to development: 1.311:47
CIA-94janjaapdriessen * r117751 groktoolkit/grok.cfg: Pick up z3c.flashmessage, which has less[testing,zcmlfiles]11:47
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CIA-94janwijbrand 1.2 * r117752 groktoolkit/grok.cfg: add zc.catalog 1.5 that now has only a soft dependency on* packages12:03
CIA-94janwijbrand * r117753 groktoolkit/grok.cfg: add zc.catalog 1.5 that now has only a soft dependency on* packages12:03
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CIA-38adamg * r117754 z3c.recipe.winservice/ (6 files in 2 dirs):15:33
CIA-38New feature: ``runscript`` and ``parameters``.15:33
CIA-38More docs, tests. Some fixes. See CHANGES.txt15:33
CIA-38adamg * r117755 z3c.recipe.winservice/ (CHANGES.txt Preparing release 0.7.015:33
CIA-38adamg * r117756 /z3c.recipe.winservice/tags/0.7.0: Tagging 0.7.015:33
CIA-38adamg * r117757 z3c.recipe.winservice/ (CHANGES.txt Back to development: 0.7.115:33
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CIA-38janwijbrand * r117758 grokproject/grokproject/ ( template/buildout.cfg_tmpl delegate bootstrapping the new project to the bootstrap of that project. by not using zc.buildout in the grokproject command anymore, we prevent version conflicts16:18
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CIA-38gotcha * r117759 gocept.selenium/ (20 files in 8 dirs):16:34
CIA-38added tests for Zope 2.12 and Plone 416:34
CIA-38added corresponding buildouts16:34
CIA-38gotcha * r117760 gocept.selenium/ (4 files in 4 dirs): rename class to be more explicit16:34
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CIA-38gotcha * r117761 gocept.selenium/: update ignore16:49
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CIA-38janwijbrand * r117762 grokproject/grokproject/template/src/+package+/ (app.txt_tmpl ftesting.zcml_tmpl tests.py_tmpl): use new style test layers in newly created project too17:03
CIA-38gotcha * r117763 gocept.selenium/ (3 files in 3 dirs):17:03
CIA-38tests with
CIA-38corresponding buildout17:03
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j-wccomb: hi - not sure, but did we plan a meeting?17:14
j-wccomb: if not, I'll mail a next-meeting-proposal17:14
ccombj-w: hi, we had some proposals in the previous mail17:14
ccombquite busy now :(17:15
j-wccomb: np, I'll mail a proposal17:15
ccombmaybe we should move the next meetings in the evening17:15
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j-wccomb: that would be ok for me17:16
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CIA-38janwijbrand * r117764 grokproject/ (grokproject/template/buildout.cfg_tmpl tests_paste.txt): fix tests. remove tests for --grokversion as we want to change that behaviour anyway17:19
CIA-38gotcha * r117765 /Sandbox/gotcha/z3c.taskqueue/trunk/ (docs/HISTORY.txt Preparing release 0.1-alpha-217:19
CIA-38gotcha * r117766 /Sandbox/gotcha/z3c.taskqueue/tags/0.1-alpha-2: Tagging 0.1-alpha-217:19
CIA-38gotcha * r117767 /Sandbox/gotcha/z3c.taskqueue/trunk/ (docs/HISTORY.txt Back to development: 0.1-alpha-317:19
CIA-38gotcha * r117768 /Sandbox/gotcha/five.taskqueue/trunk/ (docs/HISTORY.txt Preparing release 0.1-alpha-217:19
CIA-38gotcha * r117769 /Sandbox/gotcha/five.taskqueue/tags/0.1-alpha-2: Tagging 0.1-alpha-217:19
CIA-38gotcha * r117770 /Sandbox/gotcha/five.taskqueue/trunk/ (docs/HISTORY.txt Back to development: 0.1-alpha-317:19
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CIA-38janjaapdriessen * r117771 grokproject/grokproject/ Avoid spaces in executable path by using a relative one17:34
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CIA-38janwijbrand * r117772 grokproject/ (CHANGES.txt improve pypi page17:48
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TresEquisTheuni1, are we about to do meeting, or did I miss it?18:00
Theuni1we're about to18:00
Theuni1Charlie threw in the request to talk about the bicycle repair kit, but he can't make it.18:01
Theuni1So, who else is around?18:02
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Theuni1Only the two of us, it seems :)18:03
Theuni1So, last week we did a follow-up on the summit goals. I reminded those that took ownership of some goal in the last summary. And a few of us talked a bit more about the stuff we took onto our plates.18:04
Theuni1TresEquis: is there anything you'd like to talk about or ask about the summit goals?18:04
j-wTheuni1: at least there was an atempt to define functional areas18:07
Theuni1j-w: yeah, thomas started a thread, but unfortunately he got sick right after it. he probably won't be back fully until in two weeks18:08
j-wow, that's not nice, wish him well18:09
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TresEquisTheuni1, I don't really have my head in the game18:09
Theuni1will do18:09
Theuni1TresEquis: ah, k18:09
TresEquisI would like to contribute to the BTK stuff18:09
Theuni1Thought so :)18:09
Theuni1Well, the next bug day needs a date.18:10
Theuni1Lemme check what the doodle says18:10
TresEquisin particular, I plan to focus most of my Zope-related efforts through year's end on my drive to clean up docs / tests for those packages18:10
Theuni1It says tuesday or wednesday.18:10
Theuni1Does anyone else have an oppinion on the bug day?18:10
TresEquisj-w, the "bicycle-seat toolkit" subset of ZTK18:11
Theuni1j-w: bicycle (repair|tool) kit18:11
Theuni1bicycle-seat even18:11
j-wah, ok18:11
TresEquiszope.interface, zope.component, etc.18:11
Theuni1TresEquis: you and chris need to work on the mnemonic value of this thing *g18:11
TresEquisI'm probably 80% of the way through zope.interface18:11
j-wthe very core part of the ZTK?18:11
TresEquisTheuni1, I like the "-seat" version because it emphasizes the "take it with you everywhere" bits18:12
TresEquisj-w: right, the most widely-useful bits, even outside the main Zope ecosystem18:12
Theuni1ok, I hereby call next tuesday the october bug day.18:12
TresEquissounds good18:12
Theuni1I still wanted to select some bugs to announce on the list that I'd like to work on - I'll do that later today.18:13
Theuni1So, off to the BTK18:13
Theuni1Too bad Charlie can't be here as he requested the discussion.18:13
Theuni1Something I find interesting is that the BTK seems to have some overlap with the goal to define functional areas.18:13
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j-wi can see that, yes18:14
TresEquisyup, it's part of a "clumping" strategy18:14
TresEquisit happens to be the clump I use even in non-Zope-related work ;)18:14
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Theuni1Sounds like what Thomas described as  "software architecture".18:15
TresEquis"layering" is another term18:15
Theuni1TresEquis: ah, by that you refer to the clumping right?18:15
Theuni1I was referring to the clump that contains zope.interface, ...18:16
TresEquisThat clump is the BTK18:16
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TresEquisI guess you could call it a "software architecture" clump, if you really wanted ;)18:16
Theuni1ACK. Wolfgang and I started to ponder that whole functional area as a part that we (as Zope-the-project") should pay more attention to.18:16
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TresEquisI was thinking that the map showing the "clumps" / functional areas was the "software architectuer"18:17
Theuni1The world did evolve around us and there are some patterns in the wild that seem to be interesting (e.g. ports and adapters) to try getting applications designed nicely.18:17
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Theuni1TresEquis: heh, I noticed that we might already be getting lost in terminology clashes18:17
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Theuni1TresEquis: "ports and adapters" is the name for a pattern AKA hexagonal architecture.18:18
CIA-38ldr * r117773 Products.CMFCore/Products/CMFCore/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Merge in adapterize-wfstatus-wfhistory branch18:18
Theuni1see the c2 wiki18:18
Theuni1That stuff quickly leaps/blurs into the domain modelling community which seems to have some good ideas and then some astronautic stuff.18:18
Theuni1Wolfgang and I experimented with some of the things. The current state of the experiments is here:18:19
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Theuni1Anyway, we found that spending some time on the BTK including moving the concepts forward would be good.18:20
Theuni1I would regard the BTK as the stuff you use to help you apply good patterns in your apps without re-implementing them all the time.18:20
* Theuni1 stops blathering.18:20
TresEquisTheuni1:  OK18:20
Theuni1Heh. What was the OK for? :)18:21
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* Theuni1 throws J1m a cookie18:21
* Theuni1 hopes he needs to surface to get the cookie18:22
TresEquisTheuni1:  I don't see "port" spelled out here:
J1mI wish I knew of a sane way to talk about architecture.18:22
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TresEquisor do you mean to refer to
Theuni1TresEquis: i do.18:23
Theuni1our terminology section tries to boil it down a bit. looks like we missed it18:24
Theuni1J1m: whats the insane option?18:24
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* TresEquis doesn't have time to read that this morning ;)18:24
Theuni1TresEquis: sure.18:24
J1mTheuni1, uml/udp18:25
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Theuni1TresEquis: our current status is: some things and ideas in there help writing clean code a lot by separating different areas of concerns (or domains). however, some domains don't allow strict separation, like persistency, in an obvious fashion.18:25
Theuni1J1m: ack.18:26
J1mI don't think I've seen a good architectural description, except at very high levels.18:26
J1mI haven't seen a process that I felt I could apply.18:27
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J1mI'm an optimist, so I think a process is feasible and that uml or something like it might play a role.18:27
J1mI would like to learn about such a pocess.18:28
Theuni1Hmm. In my experience I get better to describe architectures by using natural language and keeping to describe to people who don't know the architecture very well.18:28
Theuni1I think it's not too hard to communicate architecture within a small group of people, but it's hard to write it down for someone to just step in.18:29
J1mActually, it's really hard to capture architecture in a way that you can refer to.18:29
Theuni1I find that understanding architecture also usually requires experience in addition to "just reading" about it. But that may be due to not having had *that* good material yet.18:29
Theuni1J1m: what's architecture anyway?18:30
J1mAns some architectures are too big to express in a conversation or keep in your head, so an oral tradition breaks down.18:30
mcdonci think people tend to understand "an architecture" better when an app is built atop it in a domain they understand18:30
mcdonctil then, it's like making them eat vegetables18:31
J1mTo me, an architecture captures design decisions at a higher level than code and at a lower level that system block diagrams.18:31
j-wthe "experience" part is important too: you need have hit your head against a wall before you understand you need something better, architecturally18:31
J1mI would find them useful to reason about and review things like data structures used, and problems like index accumulation and unnecessary indirection, to give some examples.18:32
J1mmcdonc, That's exactly what I want to avoid, easting vegetables, doing sit-ups, which is what's at the bottpm of the UMP slope.18:33
J1mI'm looking for enlightenment. :)18:33
* Theuni1 looks beneath the carpet18:33
mcdoncnone here either18:33
Theuni1J1m: we're working on it ;)18:33
Theuni1J1m: what I notice is that the value is at the point where you need to look at what you have at a higher level.18:34
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Theuni1So basically you're looking for a representation of the system you have, right?18:34
J1mSpecifically, I'm looking for an exhitectural process/expression that provides enlightenment about design decisions.18:34
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Theuni1heh, it's 3:30, everyone drops out ;)18:35
J1mYes, or the system I'm going to build.18:35
* Theuni1 stays a bit18:35
Theuni1J1m: I find patterns to be helpful in that direction. Do you?18:35
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Theuni1Specific reasons?18:36
J1mA) The "patterns" community seems too wrapped up in defining new jargon that no one understands.18:36
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J1mB) Because patterns is really just capturing decisions.  That is what's important and it tool me too long to realize that a lot of the patterns literature is just blowing smoke.18:37
J1mC) To make recording decisions useful, I think you need some sort of (at the risk of another buzzword) knowledge management system to relate and search problems and solutions.18:38
Theuni1Heh, sounds like you need brains :)18:38
Theuni1(not that you don't have one ...)18:38
J1mD) If we had C, we'd still need better ways to express specific architecture.18:38
Theuni1(I hope that didn't come out wrong)18:38
Theuni1I mean, one indicator for this being a hard problem is that at least at when I studied CS there was basically nothing taught in the realm of architecture that didn't boil down to busy-work.18:40
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Theuni1So the UML guys come along and try to make the busy-work more valuable by turning UML into code, but that really seems backward.18:40
J1mI've had ideas for C. I even prototyped something using archgenxml at one point. :)  It's a hard problem, but mostly different from architecture.18:40
J1mAgain, I'm looking for enlightenment, not code generation.18:40
Theuni1same here :)18:41
J1mI don't have an answer. I don't even have an idea. I just feel the lack.18:41
Theuni1I agree. :)18:41
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J1mI didn't mean to turn this into a long discussion. You threw me a cookie. :)18:42
Theuni1I guess we won't solve it today ...18:42
Theuni1I'm happy for the discussion.18:42
Theuni1It's basically what the meeting is for.18:42
J1myup, gotta go. Me too.18:42
Theuni1yay! :)18:43
Theuni1alright, me too.18:43
Theuni1(actually i just need to fix some light in the apartment)18:43
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CIA-38janjaapdriessen * r117774 grokcore.startup/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Drop zdaemon support.18:55
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planetzopebotFinal Week to Register for Plone Conference 2010 (Plone News)
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CIA-38janjaapdriessen * r117775 zope.testrunner/ (CHANGES.txt Preparing release 4.0.019:16
CIA-38janjaapdriessen * r117776 /zope.testrunner/tags/4.0.0: Tagging 4.0.019:16
CIA-38janjaapdriessen * r117777 zope.testrunner/ (CHANGES.txt Back to development: 4.1.019:16
CIA-38janjaapdriessen * r117778 zopetoolkit/ztk-versions.cfg: Update zope.testrunner19:16
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CIA-38janjaapdriessen * r117779 /Sandbox/janjaapdriessen/buildbot/buildout.cfg: Don't test grokproject on windows19:31
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SubdinoJ1m: would you have some minutes to discuss about the TID vs Serial thing ? Especially, I would like to understand more what prevents invalidations from being sent "out of order"19:44
Subdino(as chan is quiet, I'll risk myself at "pipelining" some ideas ahead of feedback)19:47
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Subdinoso, I wonder if TID, aka Serial, really needs to be consistent from its allocation (sometime during 2PC) to its persistent store (tpc_finish & invalidation messages)19:48
Subdinobasically, I don't see a problem with generating a first temporary transaction ID, which does not carry any ordering meaning, and upon tpc_finish a defiintive transaction ID, maybe having an ordering meaning19:49
Subdinoreducing the execution window which must be serialised to have strictly increasing invalidation numbers from the whole 2PC (actually, the time between TID allocation and tpc_finish) to tpc_finish alone19:50
Subdinothis is for the first point19:50
Subdinothen, do invalidation really need to be sent in a strictly increasing manner ? as I understand, the only thing which puts this constraint is their role in transaction isolation19:51
Subdinoie, the first invalidation seen after starting a transaction is the first serial this transaction cannot see19:51
Subdinobut then, this could be defined per-object-and-transaction instead of per transaction only I think19:52
Subdinomy idea would be to have a mapping {oid: serial} which would be looked up when deciding if we should issue a load or a loadBefore19:53
Subdinothis is the second (and most important to me) point19:53
Subdinoplease puch holes in those ideas if they have weaknesses19:53
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J1mSubdino, wrt to the "critical region" for allocating tids, it is definiately between vote and finish (assuming tids aren't returned by store.21:14
J1mAlso note that application code doesn't see tids until after commit.21:15
J1mwrt relative ordering of tids, it's possible that this could be done on a per-object basis, I'd have to think about it.  I think if you did that though, it would be hard or impossible to reason about whether revisions of separate objects were consistent.21:17
J1mSubdino, ayt?21:17
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SubdinoJ1m: back, reading21:28
Subdinoabout isolation, I think "consistent" should be precisely defined to know if this scheme passes21:29
J1mI have no idea what that means.21:30
Subdinoin my understanding, this scheme is consistent if: "no transaction can break consistency" and "transaction isolation is granted" (ie, it makes no difference if another transaction is running in parallel or not)21:31
Subdinogah, circular definition of consistency21:32
J1mYes, exactly.21:32
J1mThanks for saying it for me. :)21:32
J1mYou can have multiple transactions commit in parallel, for some definition of parallel, as long as the result is serializable.21:33
J1mConsistency is defined relative to serialization.21:34
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Subdinommh, I'm not so sure21:35
J1mThat's the definition of consistency.21:35
SubdinoIIRC, serialisability is a strong level of transaction isolation21:35
J1mYes, and for the most part, that's what ZODB provides.21:35
J1mWith the compromise wrt read isolation.21:36
Theuni1(which in turn is what most DBs provide anyway)21:37
Subdinoto take an example, I'm quite sure I can run two concurrent "update" against the same table with no commit ordering constraints on a mysql innodb table21:38
Subdinoas long at they update distinct sets of rows21:38
Subdinoand by comparing table rows to objects in ZODB, I think the same could be applicable21:40
SubdinoI think I mentionned (by mail) a thesis paper about weak consistency21:40
Subdino"Weak Consistency: A Generalized Theory and Optimistic Implementations for Distributed Transactions"21:41
Subdinothis was months ago21:41
J1mYeah, I started to read that and stopped at some point. I forget why. :)21:41
SubdinoI found at that time an old web page (2003-2005, don't remember) mentionning that ZODB might be providing PL-2+ isolation level21:42
SubdinoI won't say that I read it entirely ;)21:42
Subdinoit has the advantage of giving some simple definitions of consistency in examples (sum of two values must be lower than x, each value being independent "objects")21:43
J1mYou're mysql example produces serializable transactions, ignoring  reads.21:44
Subdinothen I believe the same should be possible in zodb too, with snapshot-ish read isolation21:45
J1mThat's what MVCC does.21:45
J1mI don't see how that could work if each object had it's own set of tids.21:45
Subdinosure, but I would like to poke at the "invalidations must be ordered" part of it, and to me this is tightly related to when definitive tid value should be allocated21:46
Subdinoah, in my idea, it's not a set per object21:46
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J1mI suspect that IRC isn't the best place to express your idea.21:47
Subdinoit's more an "invalidation_tid" per object... I think I have a patch somewhere that I could paste for comments21:47
J1mPerhaps IRC is a good place to discuss it, after it has been spelled out *clearly*.21:47
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Subdinommh, I'm not good at this :s21:50
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J1mA patch is way to low-level anyway.21:53
J1mI would need to see a high-level desctiption of the approach and be convinced that it is correct.21:54
Subdinook, I'll try.21:55
Subdinodon't worry :)21:55
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SubdinoJ1m: would you mind if I send you the first version directly, rather than on zodb-dev ? I'm really not comfortable at formalising my ideas (I guess I didn't studied for long enough to learn this).22:17
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J1mSubdino, that's fine.22:21
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SubdinoJ1m: sent23:24
Subdinofeel free to criticise my vocabulary, [il]logical constructions, anything23:26
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