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| planetzopebot | Pylons Project Meetup / Minicon (plope) http://plope.com/Members/chrism/pylons_project_minicon | 00:09 |
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| CIA-83 | mauritsvanrees * r121432 Products.GenericSetup/Products/GenericSetup/utils.py: Typo: Graphiz -> Graphviz | 01:31 |
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| CIA-83 | davisagli * r121433 persistent/setup.py: breaking tests that depend on ZODB and transaction is a feature | 08:22 |
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| CIA-83 | icemac * r121434 /zope.repositorypolicy/branches: branches | 10:34 |
| CIA-83 | icemac * r121435 /zope.repositorypolicy/branches/icemac_report_zvsl: branch to report files licensed by ZVSL (Zope Visible Source License) | 10:34 |
| CIA-83 | icemac icemac_report_zvsl * r121436 zope.repositorypolicy/src/zope/repositorypolicy/project.py: report an error wen finding a ZVSL (Zope Visible Source License) licensed file | 10:34 |
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| * kosh sets betabug on fire | 11:35 | |
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| betabug | hey kosh | 12:09 |
| planetzopebot | Pyramid CRUD vol.2 (RedTurtle Technology) http://blog.redturtle.it/redturtle-blog/pyramid-crud-vol.2 | 12:09 |
| kosh | betabug: so how goes life? | 12:09 |
| betabug | kind of busy, lots of open questions | 12:10 |
| kosh | so what have you thought of other frameworks you have played with so far? | 12:11 |
| betabug | well, I only played with pyramid so far | 12:11 |
| betabug | I like it, it's lean and mean | 12:12 |
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| betabug | lots of things that zope has "built-in" you have to do yourself, but that's probably fine for small sites where you don't need it all | 12:12 |
| kosh | that is what I keep seeing in various frameworks | 12:12 |
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| kosh | that a lot of stuff zope has builtin that I use constantly I would have to build myself in other frameworks | 12:12 |
| kosh | the biggest being security | 12:12 |
| betabug | the real problem with zoe right now is that it returned to being a moving target | 12:13 |
| betabug | stuff you've used in old projects might not be there any more next year | 12:13 |
| kosh | as in things are developing in it again and they are removing stuff that should not be removed? | 12:13 |
| betabug | yes | 12:13 |
| kosh | MailHost python scripts and a bunch of other stuff going to external projecst so they are not part of the zope 2.x core | 12:13 |
| betabug | and they seem to be back to not care about removing stuff htat's been used | 12:13 |
| kosh | well it seems if plone does not depend on it then they don't care about it being in the zope 2.x release anymore | 12:14 |
| kosh | with zope 2.14 a bunch of additional eggs will be needed | 12:14 |
| betabug | yeah, looks like "not needed for plone, so it's gone" is the new mantra | 12:15 |
| kosh | I certainly looks like they want to get everyone to just use plone | 12:16 |
| betabug | and they don't seem to care much about there being software that's out there and working | 12:16 |
| kosh | what I see is more and more projects don't seem to care about that | 12:18 |
| betabug | no idea | 12:18 |
| kosh | it is all about chasing the newest coolest thing and make your framework smaller | 12:18 |
| kosh | breaking backwards compatibility was a huge no no 10 years ago, it seems to just be seen as completely normal now to keep doing it | 12:19 |
| kosh | and people are breaking backwards compatibility whene there are no reasons to do so | 12:19 |
| betabug | I like that about the pyramid guys - they seem to differ from that point of view | 12:19 |
| kosh | heck python breaking backwards compatibility is probably going to result in pyhton 4.x being out before the majority have finished moving to 3.x | 12:20 |
| kosh | guess you will have to find out if they really are different | 12:20 |
| kosh | it is a brand new project, give it a few years and see if they still care about any kind of compatibility | 12:20 |
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| betabug | well, it's been around for a while as repoze.bfg | 12:20 |
| betabug | and those projects can be moved to pyramid with few changes it seems | 12:21 |
| kosh | ah | 12:22 |
| kosh | well when I looked at pyramid it looked like it would still take a huge ammount of work to move the stuff from zope to pyramid | 12:22 |
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| betabug | yes, pyramid is not directly related to zope | 12:22 |
| kosh | did you ask on the zope list about running tests? | 12:23 |
| betabug | yes | 12:23 |
| betabug | no replies so far | 12:23 |
| kosh | well one thing I find funny is that on a previous post you say that CatalogPathAwareness is deprecated but in zope 2.13.5 I am using it and see no signs of it being deprecated, it is still there and fully working | 12:23 |
| betabug | well, it says so in the code | 12:24 |
| betabug | CatalogPathAwareness.py | 12:24 |
| kosh | Zope2-2.13.5/eggs/Products.ZCatalog-2.13.6-py2.6.egg/Products/ZCatalog/CatalogPathAwareness.py that is what mine is using and I have not seen any errors | 12:24 |
| kosh | oh I see there is a warning in it | 12:24 |
| kosh | yeah I have no idea how to replace it with lifecycles | 12:25 |
| betabug | and they removed the emtpy "class CatalogPathAware" in it | 12:25 |
| betabug | of course you have no idea, that stuff seems to be entirely undocumented | 12:25 |
| kosh | they invent new systems but give no information at all on how to upgrade to it | 12:25 |
| kosh | I had looked at the lifecycle stuff briefly but found no docs on it | 12:26 |
| betabug | there are 6 or 7 doctest style examples | 12:26 |
| betabug | not giving any information what really happens | 12:26 |
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| kosh | probably plone uses the lifecycle stuff because the devs that wrote it also work on plone | 12:27 |
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| kosh | and don't feel any need to write docs for it since nobody should be using anything else anyways | 12:27 |
| betabug | dunno, but I guess that probably 5 people in all the world know how to use it | 12:27 |
| kosh | it would probably take me just as much effort to port stuff to plone as to port it off zope entirely | 12:28 |
| kosh | and then whatever framework I moved things do would screw me exactly the same way anyways | 12:28 |
| betabug | but even if it was well documented, changing those classes of objects might not be so trivial | 12:28 |
| kosh | making software reliable and stable is just not cool enough | 12:28 |
| betabug | besides that the project in question might not be in active, paying maintenance to pay for the changes | 12:29 |
| kosh | I have this idea that the nosql based stuff is going to burn backwards compat a LOT | 12:29 |
| betabug | well, I guess I'll have to subscribe to zope-dev and become more of a voice | 12:30 |
| kosh | I just don't see how to really fix this stuff | 12:31 |
| betabug | well, I don't have the knowledge yet and I currently don't have the time (yet), but I'll get there | 12:32 |
| kosh | always so much work to do | 12:33 |
| wosc | kosh: what stuff is it, and what's broken on it? | 12:35 |
| kosh | wosc: breaking backwards compatibility | 12:35 |
| wosc | hm, that's a hard one | 12:36 |
| wosc | because I think it's a tradeoff between ongoing development and stability | 12:36 |
| betabug | wosc: well, broken... nobody seems to know how to run the tests on a Product in zope 2.13 | 12:36 |
| wosc | my best guess so far (and it's not a good one) is to separate a stable "branch" and a development "branch | 12:36 |
| kosh | wosc: if you break compatbility but provide no docs for how to use the new replacement system that is a major problem | 12:36 |
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| wosc | and make a promise how long the stable thing lives | 12:36 |
| wosc | (and backport bugfixes etc. to it) | 12:37 |
| wosc | kosh: very true | 12:37 |
| kosh | wosc: like betabug said the next version of zope 2.x gets rid of CatalogPathAwareness and you are not to use a new system that is not documented | 12:37 |
| betabug | given that very few new zope users appear, stability should be a major concern for zope developers | 12:37 |
| kosh | wosc: so stuff we have written right now will not work in the next major version and porting is a pain because we have to figure out how to port it | 12:37 |
| wosc | hmm, disclaimer | 12:38 |
| * wosc doesn't know much about Zope2, much less about what's currently happening to it | 12:38 | |
| wosc | but the issue about bw-compat and documentation still applies | 12:38 |
| kosh | betabug: however sometimes things get reversed, remember when the logging stuff got added back because it upset so many? | 12:39 |
| betabug | yeah | 12:40 |
| betabug | that was a time when some zope devs were noticing that backwards compatibility was a good thing | 12:40 |
| kosh | wosc: the basic idea with any software is you break backwards compat as a last resort, where possible you implement the old api in terms of the new one so old code still works and people can see how to upgrade and you don't have to maintain the old code | 12:40 |
| betabug | seems that has changed again | 12:40 |
| kosh | and you put out docs on exactly how to upgrade | 12:40 |
| wosc | kosh: makes sense | 12:40 |
| betabug | and zope is kind of a special case, as *lots* of old stuff is around, stuff that "just runs somewhere" | 12:41 |
| wosc | I don't know what Hanno is up to (I think he's in charge of Zope2) | 12:41 |
| betabug | and very few new stuff is coming in | 12:41 |
| wosc | but usually I got the impression he knows what he's doing | 12:41 |
| betabug | he seems to be the guy who is removing CatalogPathAwareness | 12:41 |
| wosc | maybe he just didn't tell anyone | 12:41 |
| wosc | or whatever | 12:41 |
| betabug | likely | 12:41 |
| wosc | but you said you mentioned the issue on zope-dev already, right? | 12:42 |
| * wosc hopes that should help sorting it | 12:42 | |
| kosh | betabug: ask on zope dev so I can reply to it there | 12:42 |
| betabug | no, so far I've written to zope@ | 12:42 |
| betabug | I'm right now signing up for zope-dev@ | 12:42 |
| wosc | riiight | 12:42 |
| wosc | hey, you're my first customer | 12:42 |
| wosc | because I thought and said about a year ago | 12:43 |
| wosc | that there are too many zope-related mailing lists | 12:43 |
| wosc | for the amount of people/conversation involved | 12:43 |
| wosc | I've long wanted to trim them down | 12:44 |
| betabug | hu? there are for zope only 2: zope and zope-dev | 12:44 |
| wosc | then there's zope3-user, zope-db, ... | 12:44 |
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| wosc | I've gone through mail.zope.org some time ago, there were like 15 dead/mostly-dead lists on it | 12:45 |
| bigkevmcd | I thought zope3-user was finished? | 12:45 |
| wosc | but then I dropped the ball | 12:45 |
| kosh | zope-db is sitll fairly active and it is pretty specific | 12:45 |
| wosc | kosh: zope-db, really? not zodb-dev? | 12:46 |
| kosh | betabug: for now I am going to give up on further testing of relstorage, slower and more of a pain for now with all the imporvements to zeo | 12:46 |
| kosh | oops your are right wosc it is zodb-dev I was thinking of | 12:46 |
| wosc | bigkevmcd: semantically true (it's all gone BlueBream), but the list is still around | 12:46 |
| wosc | see? ;-) | 12:46 |
| * wosc needs to pick that ball up again, methinks | 12:46 | |
| kosh | I think that zope 2.x would be much better off right now if zope 3.x had never happened and all the work had gone into 2.x and incrementally upgraded it with docs on how to upgrade at every step | 12:47 |
| kosh | so 2.x would have added a new feature along with docs on how to migrate to that new feature 2.x+1 would deprecate the old feature if warented and 2.x+2 would remove it | 12:48 |
| betabug | so in zope-dev, the only times CatalogPathAwareness was mentioned was somewhere in 2002 - 2005 | 12:49 |
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| kosh | well betabug go yell at people and get us docs! | 12:57 |
| kosh | if you don't get us docs I will have godzilla wipe out a city, some random city you care about | 12:57 |
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| betabug | I don't care about cities | 13:06 |
| betabug | I like the countryside | 13:06 |
| betabug | but godzilla doesn't find enough stuff to feed out in the countryside | 13:06 |
| betabug | well, sent mail to zope-dev@ | 13:06 |
| kosh | well godzilla can trash the country side on the way to a city | 13:07 |
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| CIA-83 | ldr * r121437 z3c.form/ (src/z3c/form/widget.py CHANGES.txt src/z3c/form/widget.txt): Ensure at least min_length widgets are rendered for a MultiWidget in input mode. | 14:47 |
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| betabug | hmm, so I have an answer on the zope-dev list | 16:19 |
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| mcdonc | davisagli: yay! https://mail.zope.org/pipermail/checkins/2011-April/055707.html | 18:01 |
| betabug | hu? | 18:02 |
| betabug | is that irony? | 18:02 |
| betabug | late april's fool? | 18:03 |
| mcdonc | heh no, transaction doesnt depend on zodb, and neither should its tests | 18:03 |
| betabug | so this is not for zope? | 18:03 |
| mcdonc | define "zope" ;-) | 18:03 |
| betabug | Zope 2 | 18:04 |
| mcdonc | for some definition of "for", i guess no | 18:04 |
| betabug | sorry, I'm a bit loaded because of the stuff I put on zope-dev | 18:04 |
| betabug | anyway, workday is over now, weekend starts and will be great | 18:05 |
| betabug | hf all! | 18:05 |
| mcdonc | you too, still only 11am here | 18:05 |
| davisagli | mcdonc: celebrate when they actually don't use ZODB and transaction | 18:05 |
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| mcdonc | davisagli: right | 18:07 |
| mcdonc | i just saw the backstory there, sorry | 18:07 |
| mcdonc | i thought it was a preemptive strike | 18:07 |
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