IRC log of #zope for Friday, 2011-04-15

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planetzopebotPylons Project Meetup / Minicon (plope)
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CIA-83mauritsvanrees * r121432 Products.GenericSetup/Products/GenericSetup/ Typo: Graphiz -> Graphviz01:31
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CIA-83davisagli * r121433 persistent/ breaking tests that depend on ZODB and transaction is a feature08:22
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CIA-83icemac * r121434 /zope.repositorypolicy/branches: branches10:34
CIA-83icemac * r121435 /zope.repositorypolicy/branches/icemac_report_zvsl: branch to report files licensed by ZVSL (Zope Visible Source License)10:34
CIA-83icemac icemac_report_zvsl * r121436 zope.repositorypolicy/src/zope/repositorypolicy/ report an error wen finding a ZVSL (Zope Visible Source License) licensed file10:34
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* kosh sets betabug on fire11:35
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betabughey kosh12:09
planetzopebotPyramid CRUD vol.2 (RedTurtle Technology)
koshbetabug: so how goes life?12:09
betabugkind of busy, lots of open questions12:10
koshso what have you thought of other frameworks you have played with so far?12:11
betabugwell, I only played with pyramid so far12:11
betabugI like it, it's lean and mean12:12
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betabuglots of things that zope has "built-in" you have to do yourself, but that's probably fine for small sites where you don't need it all12:12
koshthat is what I keep seeing in various frameworks12:12
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koshthat a lot of stuff zope has builtin that I use constantly I would have to build myself in other frameworks12:12
koshthe biggest being security12:12
betabugthe real problem with zoe right now is that it returned to being a moving target12:13
betabugstuff you've used in old projects might not be there any more next year12:13
koshas in things are developing in it again and they are removing stuff that should not be removed?12:13
koshMailHost python scripts and a bunch of other stuff going to external projecst so they are not part of the zope 2.x core12:13
betabugand they seem to be back to not care about removing stuff htat's been used12:13
koshwell it seems if plone does not depend on it then they don't care about it being in the zope 2.x release anymore12:14
koshwith zope 2.14 a bunch of additional eggs will be needed12:14
betabugyeah, looks like "not needed for plone, so it's gone" is the new mantra12:15
koshI certainly looks like they want to get everyone to just use plone12:16
betabugand they don't seem to care much about there being software that's out there and working12:16
koshwhat I see is more and more projects don't seem to care about that12:18
betabugno idea12:18
koshit is all about chasing the newest coolest thing and make your framework smaller12:18
koshbreaking backwards compatibility was a huge no no 10 years ago, it seems to just be seen as completely normal now to keep doing it12:19
koshand people are breaking backwards compatibility whene there are no reasons to do so12:19
betabugI like that about the pyramid guys - they seem to differ from that point of view12:19
koshheck python breaking backwards compatibility is probably going to result in pyhton 4.x being out before the majority have finished moving to 3.x12:20
koshguess you will have to find out if they really are different12:20
koshit is a brand new project, give it a few years and see if they still care about any kind of compatibility12:20
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betabugwell, it's been around for a while as repoze.bfg12:20
betabugand those projects can be moved to pyramid with few changes it seems12:21
koshwell when I looked at pyramid it looked like it would still take a huge ammount of work to move the stuff from zope to pyramid12:22
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betabugyes, pyramid is not directly related to zope12:22
koshdid you ask on the zope list about running tests?12:23
betabugno replies so far12:23
koshwell one thing I find funny is that on a previous post you say that CatalogPathAwareness is deprecated but in zope 2.13.5 I am using it and see no signs of it being deprecated, it is still there and fully working12:23
betabugwell, it says so in the code12:24
koshZope2-2.13.5/eggs/Products.ZCatalog-2.13.6-py2.6.egg/Products/ZCatalog/    that is what mine is using and I have not seen any errors12:24
koshoh I see there is a warning in it12:24
koshyeah I have no idea how to replace it with lifecycles12:25
betabugand they removed the emtpy "class CatalogPathAware" in it12:25
betabugof course you have no idea, that stuff seems to be entirely undocumented12:25
koshthey invent new systems but give no information at all on how to upgrade to it12:25
koshI had looked at the lifecycle stuff briefly but found no docs on it12:26
betabugthere are 6 or 7 doctest style examples12:26
betabugnot giving any information what really happens12:26
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koshprobably plone uses the lifecycle stuff because the devs that wrote it also work on plone12:27
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koshand don't feel any need to write docs for it since nobody should be using anything else anyways12:27
betabugdunno, but I guess that probably 5 people in all the world know how to use it12:27
koshit would probably take me just as much effort to port stuff to plone as to port it off zope entirely12:28
koshand then whatever framework I moved things do would screw me exactly the same way anyways12:28
betabugbut even if it was well documented, changing those classes of objects might not be so trivial12:28
koshmaking software reliable and stable is just not cool enough12:28
betabugbesides that the project in question might not be in active, paying maintenance to pay for the changes12:29
koshI have this idea that the nosql based stuff is going to burn backwards compat a LOT12:29
betabugwell, I guess I'll have to subscribe to zope-dev and become more of a voice12:30
koshI just don't see how to really fix this stuff12:31
betabugwell, I don't have the knowledge yet and I currently don't have the time (yet), but I'll get there12:32
koshalways so much work to do12:33
wosckosh: what stuff is it, and what's broken on it?12:35
koshwosc: breaking backwards compatibility12:35
woschm, that's a hard one12:36
woscbecause I think it's a tradeoff between ongoing development and stability12:36
betabugwosc: well, broken... nobody seems to know how to run the tests on a Product in zope 2.1312:36
woscmy best guess so far (and it's not a good one) is to separate a stable "branch" and a development "branch12:36
koshwosc: if you break compatbility but provide no docs for how to use the new replacement system that is a major problem12:36
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woscand make a promise how long the stable thing lives12:36
wosc(and backport bugfixes etc. to it)12:37
wosckosh: very true12:37
koshwosc: like betabug said the next version of zope 2.x gets rid of CatalogPathAwareness and you are not to use a new system that is not documented12:37
betabuggiven that very few new zope users appear, stability should be a major concern for zope developers12:37
koshwosc: so stuff we have written right now will not work in the next major version and porting is a pain because we have to figure out how to port it12:37
woschmm, disclaimer12:38
* wosc doesn't know much about Zope2, much less about what's currently happening to it12:38
woscbut the issue about bw-compat and documentation still applies12:38
koshbetabug: however sometimes things get reversed, remember when the logging stuff got added back because it upset so many?12:39
betabugthat was a time when some zope devs were noticing that backwards compatibility was a good thing12:40
koshwosc: the basic idea with any software is you break backwards compat as a last resort, where possible you implement the old api in terms of the new one so old code still works and people can see how to upgrade and you don't have to maintain the old code12:40
betabugseems that has changed again12:40
koshand you put out docs on exactly how to upgrade12:40
wosckosh: makes sense12:40
betabugand zope is kind of a special case, as *lots* of old stuff is around, stuff that "just runs somewhere"12:41
woscI don't know what Hanno is up to (I think he's in charge of Zope2)12:41
betabugand very few new stuff is coming in12:41
woscbut usually I got the impression he knows what he's doing12:41
betabughe seems to be the guy who is removing CatalogPathAwareness12:41
woscmaybe he just didn't tell anyone12:41
woscor whatever12:41
woscbut you said you mentioned the issue on zope-dev already, right?12:42
* wosc hopes that should help sorting it12:42
koshbetabug: ask on zope dev so I can reply to it there12:42
betabugno, so far I've written to zope@12:42
betabugI'm right now signing up for zope-dev@12:42
woschey, you're my first customer12:42
woscbecause I thought and said about a year ago12:43
woscthat there are too many zope-related mailing lists12:43
woscfor the amount of people/conversation involved12:43
woscI've long wanted to trim them down12:44
betabughu? there are for zope only 2: zope and zope-dev12:44
woscthen there's zope3-user, zope-db, ...12:44
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woscI've gone through some time ago, there were like 15 dead/mostly-dead lists on it12:45
bigkevmcdI thought zope3-user was finished?12:45
woscbut then I dropped the ball12:45
koshzope-db is sitll fairly active and it is pretty specific12:45
wosckosh: zope-db, really? not zodb-dev?12:46
koshbetabug: for now I am going to give up on further testing of relstorage, slower and more of a pain for now with all the imporvements to zeo12:46
koshoops your are right wosc it is zodb-dev I was thinking of12:46
woscbigkevmcd: semantically true (it's all gone BlueBream), but the list is still around12:46
woscsee? ;-)12:46
* wosc needs to pick that ball up again, methinks12:46
koshI think that zope 2.x would be much better off right now if zope 3.x had never happened and all the work had gone into 2.x and incrementally upgraded it with docs on how to upgrade at every step12:47
koshso 2.x would have added a new feature along with docs on how to migrate to that new feature  2.x+1 would deprecate the old feature if warented and 2.x+2 would remove it12:48
betabugso in zope-dev, the only times CatalogPathAwareness was mentioned was somewhere in 2002 - 200512:49
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koshwell betabug go yell at people and get us docs!12:57
koshif you don't get us docs I will have godzilla wipe out a city, some random city you care about12:57
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betabugI don't care about cities13:06
betabugI like the countryside13:06
betabugbut godzilla doesn't find enough stuff to feed out in the countryside13:06
betabugwell, sent mail to zope-dev@13:06
koshwell godzilla can trash the country side on the way to a city13:07
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CIA-83ldr * r121437 z3c.form/ (src/z3c/form/ CHANGES.txt src/z3c/form/widget.txt): Ensure at least min_length widgets are rendered for a MultiWidget in input mode.14:47
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betabughmm, so I have an answer on the zope-dev list16:19
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mcdoncdavisagli: yay!
betabugis that irony?18:02
betabuglate april's fool?18:03
mcdoncheh no, transaction doesnt depend on zodb, and neither should its tests18:03
betabugso this is not for zope?18:03
mcdoncdefine "zope" ;-)18:03
betabugZope 218:04
mcdoncfor some definition of "for", i guess no18:04
betabugsorry, I'm a bit loaded because of the stuff I put on zope-dev18:04
betabuganyway, workday is over now, weekend starts and will be great18:05
betabughf all!18:05
mcdoncyou  too, still only 11am here18:05
davisaglimcdonc: celebrate when they actually don't use ZODB and transaction18:05
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mcdoncdavisagli: right18:07
mcdonci just saw the backstory there, sorry18:07
mcdonci thought it was a preemptive strike18:07
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