IRC log of #zope for Monday, 2011-04-18

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savantgardecan someone explain in simple terms how I can install my distribute-based distribution with buildout?14:27
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savantgardeteix: isn't that for an obsolete version of buildout (1.2)?14:50
savantgardeI'm reading the documentation for 1.5 on PyPi, and it's not very straightforward IMO14:50
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teixsavantgarde: right sorry! seems to be outdated but what do you want to do specifically?14:55
savantgardeI want to install my distribute-based ( project into a virtual environment with all its dependencies14:57
teixsavantgarde: maybe the best way to use buildout is getting an existing buildout.cfg from a working project like Plone, Django, ...14:57
savantgardebut then I need to know how to use buildout itself as well14:58
savantgardei.e., commandline usage14:58
savantgardeit's not entirely obvious from the documentation how to invoke it in my case14:58
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teixsavantgarde: see for your usecase15:02
savantgardeI'm reading that, but it doesn't really say how to do it with a source distribution15:04
savantgardeit doesn't say it explicitly, but I suspect the egg is to be fetched from pypi15:04
savantgardealso, in my case buildout.cfg should (probably) be in the project root, whereas I want to install it beneath another root15:06
teixsavantgarde: you'll only need buildout.cfg and and it's recommend the use of virtualenv15:10
savantgardeteix: I understand that from 1.5 on you shouldn't use virtualenv15:14
savantgardeinstead you can set the option include-site-packages = false15:14
savantgardein buildout.cfg15:14
savantgardewhat does the "install" command to buildout do btw?15:17
savantgardelooks like you can install in the current directory without providing an argument to buildout15:18
savantgardeI'm really confused as to how to achieve my usecase, I've tried and it fails since my project isn't on PyPi15:21
savantgardeI'm sure I can install a development egg, but I don't want that either15:21
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savantgardeit appears to me that buildout requires any distribution to be in a distribution index, even if one wants to install it as a development egg?15:37
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savantgardeI don't actually want to :)15:37
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* kosh sets betabug on fire15:49
betabug-mbhey kosh15:49
betabug-mbhow's life?15:49
koshother then the stuff on zope-dev?15:50
savantgardeis there any standard recipe that allows buildout to install from a source Python distribution?15:50
savantgardei.e., not from a package index15:50
betabug-mbkosh: yeah, I am not too happy15:51
betabug-mbabout that15:51
woscsavantgarde: what do you mean by source distribution?15:51
woscif it's a tarball, stick in a directory and give [buildout] find-links = thedir15:51
savantgardewosc: specifically, my project with its setup.py15:51
woscif it's a checkout (or simlilar), you'll need [buildout] develop = /path/that/contains/setup.py15:52
woscerr, I mean15:52
wosc/path/to/dir, where dir is the one that contains setup.py15:52
savantgardewosc: how is a checkout different from a source tree?15:52
woscsavantgarde: nevermind15:52
savantgardeit's a Git repo, but that shouldn't matter15:52
woscyep yep15:52
savantgardeI don't want to install a development egg btw, but a normal egg15:53
savantgardeas in "python install"15:53
betabug-mbbigkevmcd: still more jobs to fill? :-)15:53
woscsavantgarde: what do you mean by install?15:53
bigkevmcdbetabug-mb: expanding the team again15:53
koshbetabug-mb: it seems that most of the devs for it don't care about backwards compatbility or documentation and want nothing more then for everyone to stop using it and they will work as hard as possible to make that happen15:53
savantgardewosc: same as "python install", except in an isolated environment15:53
betabug-mbkosh: looks like15:53
betabug-mbyour other "reading" seems also correct15:53
koshbetabug-mb: I just don't get why, why try to run the product straight into the ground?15:54
betabug-mbzope will be pushed around a bit by the plone guys, then they'll abandon it15:54
woscsavantgarde: are you sure you want to use buildout? don't get me wrong, buildout is a powerful tool, but if all you're looking for is "easy_install foo" without clobbering site-packages, use virtualenv, not buildout15:54
koshah yes that15:54
betabug-mbkosh: you know the old joke about the 10 year marriage?15:54
savantgardewosc: I've looked at both, I just got the impression that buildout 1.5 can easily replace virtualenv15:54
koshalso hanno did not answer about plone welcoming any help or that it would keep compatibility with itself and provide docs for doing upgrades15:55
betabug-mbfor 10 years the lady of the house told her husband to change, "I don't like you doing this, do it that way" etc.15:55
koshbetabug-mb: nope what is it?15:55
woscsavantgarde: that's right, but buildout is an entirely different beast than virtualenv15:55
betabug-mbafter 10 years she says "you're not the man I've married any more"15:55
savantgardewosc: well, I have no experience with either so if buildout supports my case I might as well use that?15:55
savantgardeif it supports my case...15:55
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betabug-mbplone had the philosophy to pin a plone version to a zope version since a long time15:56
koshbetabug-mb: I just don't get why they want to kill off all users, why are they trying so hard to make sure that nobody will use it15:56
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betabug-mband upgrading meant going through some massive data upgrade dance15:56
woscsavantgarde: buildout supports it, but you'll need to learn about buildout's view of the world15:56
betabug-mbkosh: I don't get it either15:56
woscsavantgarde: so anyway, I think you want [buildout] develop = ...15:56
savantgardewosc: does that install a development egg though?15:56
betabug-mbthey might as well just go to another framework themselves and let zope be abandoned right away15:56
koshbetabug-mb: but it looks like they want to get rid of the zope 2.x requirment for plone but also won't commit to docs or compatibility15:56
koshwell I look at grok and I won't touch that, that just looks like a security disaster15:57
koshbluebream is not acceptable to me15:57
betabug-mbit looks a bit like "nobody liked Zope 3, so we got angry and will kill Zope 2 anyway"15:57
betabug-mbdunno about grok and security, but grok never "clicked" with me15:57
koshplone is plone but it did have some nice features added to it salesforce integration and I would not have to write that myself if I used it and a lot of the plone issues I could probably fix15:58
koshgrok fails open15:58
betabug-mband "where will *I* go" is not really my point15:58
woscsavantgarde: to me, "develop egg" means "buildout gets to the code by reading it from a directory" while "normal egg" means "buildout gets to the code by downloading something from pypi and extracting it"15:58
kosheverything is default allow unless explicitely closed15:58
woscsavantgarde: I don't know what the terms mean to you, though15:58
savantgardewosc: a development egg is a different installation15:58
betabug-mbbut there are some "old" zope products around that are running just fine so far15:58
koshbetabug-mb: I just find it frustrating that I realy don't need much out of zope 2.x to keep going for a very long time15:58
savantgardeit's just installed as a link to the source tree15:58
woscsavantgarde: then I don't know what you want to do15:59
koshbetabug-mb: if all it got was security updates but pretty much did not change outside of that it would probably work for me indefinitely15:59
betabug-mbyeah, could be15:59
savantgardewosc: a development egg is installed by "python develop"; I want to install a normal egg, like "python install"15:59
betabug-mbat least till ipv6 comes along in a big way15:59
woscsavantgarde: buildout does not "install" anything15:59
woscsavantgarde: buildout creates a fine-tuned PYTHONPATH15:59
kosheven that would not be a problem, I don't have zope external facing15:59
betabug-mbdoesn't buildout have its own channel?15:59
koshso nginx would do the ipv6 part16:00
savantgardewosc: besides, when I try "develop" now it fails due to not finding a distribution (on PyPi?)16:00
betabug-mbyeah, with a web server in front, it would probably not matter16:00
betabug-mbunless the world goes 100% ipv6 only, even for localhost connections :-)16:00
koshthat would be weird to have happen16:00
betabug-mbwell, things happen16:00
koshand considering all the hardware that is ipv4 only and will never be fixed ipv4 is going to stay around for a VERY long time16:00
betabug-mbI guess so too16:01
savantgardewosc: buildout installs into your buildout directory no? otherwise, what's on the PYTHONPATH?16:01
woscsavantgarde: look at for example16:01
koshhowever zope 2.x can use wsgi now I think also so could have nginx talk to that16:01
woscsavantgarde: the first entry comes from a "develop" line, the others are "normal" eggs16:01
woscsavantgarde: could you paste the error message you get? (also try bin/buildout -vvv for more info)16:01
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savantgardewosc: Error: Couldn't find a distribution for 'fbt'16:03
betabug-mbwell, I don't think I can tell my next customer to use Zope for a new project - given the state of things16:03
woscsavantgarde: could you also paste your buildout.cfg?16:03
koshbetabug-mb: one thing I have noticed is that pyramid can still use zeo, it can do a default closed security and the code is compatible enough that I might be able to switch over that and keep my current data compatibility16:03
betabug-mbyes, pyramid has some similarities16:03
betabug-mbbut it's much more "roll your own", instead of "batteries included"16:04
betabug-mbthat might be good sometimes, but has to be kept in mind16:04
betabug-mband mcdonc seems to have *very* different ideas about the importance of backward compatibility and API contracts16:04
woscsavantgarde: looks reasonable, so if '.' contains the for 'fbt', it ought to work...16:05
koshbetabug-mb: since my product never depended on anything outside the most basic parts of zope I might be able to make it work16:05
betabug-mbthat dance about manage_afterAdd being deprecated or not depending on the day of week and phase of the moon is a disgrace16:05
savantgardewosc: . does contain, yes16:05
woscsavantgarde: then I'm stumped for now, I'm afraid16:06
betabug-mbI don't have "one product" and I can't easily sell my customers onto a big job like rewriting their app to a new framework16:06
koshbetabug-mb: I would have to mock up enough classes that pyramid could load my existing zeo but I think that is doable16:06
savantgardewosc: ok thanks any; I think I'll try stackoverflow16:06
betabug-mbkosh: yeah, in that case it could be an option16:07
koshbetabug-mb: I kind of build just about everything into a large master product although I have started seperating parts out into a library16:07
betabug-mbI have different stuff - and some of it is old and crufty from when I started out16:07
betabug-mbstill runs fine though ;-)16:08
koshbetabug-mb: the problem is I don't see much else outside of pyramid that is really workable right now, at least pyramid has a real security model16:08
betabug-mbbut I wouldn't like to show that code around, haha16:08
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koshI keep upgrading mine and all our sites use the same code regardless of age16:08
koshthe biggest problem for me is python scripts inside the zodb since nothing else will support that16:08
betabug-mbin pyramid you could probably write a security subsystem that mimics what you have in zope 100%16:08
koshand it looks like zope 2.x is trying to wip that out anyways16:08
koshwell it looked like pyramid had something like security.declarePrivate you coudl put for every method just like a do now16:09
koshjust a very slightly different format16:09
betabug-mbI wonder how long till they will rip out acquisition and class inheritance16:09
koshbut it looked like a search and replace could do that16:09
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betabug-mbyes, it's in the "view definition" thing16:09
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koshit just seems like zope 2.x is still such a great product and you can still do such amazing things with it and they are absolutely determined to kill it16:10
koshI still have not seen anything else that make reuse of components as easy, or is as quick to develop for while still offering amazing security16:10
betabug-mbwell, to them we're just those old lunatics that nobody has to listen to16:10
koshI have gone up against ruby on rails devs and a bunch of others and usually absolutely kill them on development speed while also ending up with a system that works better16:10
koshwhat I don't get is if they hate it so much why are they spending so much time working so hard to kill it16:11
koshzope + zeo is just so dang reliable16:12
koshwhen I was playing with relstorage and also played with pgpool when I had over 200 simul connections sometimes the system would just stop16:12
koshno errors anywhere but postgres and pgpool would stop doing anything16:12
betabug-mbsome kind of deadlock16:12
betabug-mbdb connection pool depleted or something16:13
koshwhen I did searching on pgpool it was a known problem but they did not know what caused it but they did not seem to consider it very serious16:13
koshsince you can just restart it again16:13
koshand that idea just seems foreign to me16:13
koshI can leave my zope + zeo systems running for a year and I have every confidence at the end of that year they would all still be running16:13
koshit just seems that most of the modern software doesn't even try to make stuff really reliable16:14
koshthey just expect you to babysit it or have another program constantly babysit it and restart it fairly often16:14
* J1m wonders who the "they" who is trying to kill zope 2 is.16:16
betabug-mbJ1m: how about the people who constantly declare it dead and tell people to move away from it?16:17
koshseveral people in zope-dev seemed pretty intent that zope 2.x is dead and that people should stop using it16:18
koshand features are removed that apps used with no docs on how to upgrade them16:18
koshit makes it pretty hostile to use16:18
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betabug-mbthe thinking seems to be "it's dead anyway, so you should not mind if we drop backwards compatibility"16:19
J1mI'm sorry to hear that.16:19
J1mOf course, I don't use it any more. :)16:20
koshI don't know how new people would be able to develop with it since the event system is not documented and the older system is being stripped16:20
betabug-mbthe story about manage_afterAdd being deprecated / undeprecated / deprecated is a shame16:20
koshJ1m: I just wish that the people maintaining it where not so hostile towards anyone using it and trying so hard to kill it16:20
J1mMaybe people who care about backward compatibility should get more involved in development.16:21
J1mFWIW, I have the same frustration with the Python maintainers.16:21
betabug-mbJ1m: I said I'd want to do that - no reply to that part16:21
koshit seems pretty hard to get involved, I have offered for some of those things also but it was ignored16:21
betabug-mbas I'm going to have a bit more time on my hands now and I've got some interest in the matter, it comes naturally to me16:21
koshJ1m: I absolutely agree about python 3.x sure making life hard for very little gain16:22
betabug-mbof course I'm not a coding superstar, so maybe I deserve it ;-)16:22
koshbetabug-mb: I would definitely be willing to work with you to make some of that stuff work16:22
J1mI think, in general, Python maintainers don't have any understanding of people writing non-trivial apps.16:22
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koshbetabug-mb: would be nice to make it so that CatalogPathAwareness was a shim over the new event system if possible16:23
koshJ1m: I kind of feel that way about python devs and the zope devs right now16:23
koshJ1m: and looking around at other systems I don't see many systems that look like they are robust and stable development platforms that I can really build apps to run long term with outside of java16:24
koshJ1m: and java is not really something I want to do but at least they seem to take reliability and compatibility a lot more seriously16:24
betabug-mbkosh: they had their share of reinventing wheels and throwing the old ones away16:24
betabug-mbmaybe they've just cooled down a bit16:24
koshit seems most systems are built with the idea that whatever you build today in about 2 years you will burn down and start completely voer with16:25
betabug-mbtoo bad my customers don't subscribe to that point of view16:25
koshmine don't either16:25
koshthey want web stuff to work like a lot of their other apps do16:26
J1mkosh, betabug-mb some high level suggestion, without digging in:16:26
J1m- consider maintaining an older zope 2 release rather than upgrading16:26
koshcontinual work over the years to keep something updated but never burn down and start over16:26
J1m- learn the difference bwteen the old and new catalog update frameworks and write a how-to to help people16:26
betabug-mbJ1m: yeah, I was thinking about that16:27
betabug-mbbut I think it would be a shame to just get stuck in a world of one's own16:27
J1m- Maybe write a shim package that helps who don't want to modify their apps.  You could release this on your own.16:27
betabug-mbJ1m: or write a thin layer over the old stuff, with the API of the new stuff16:28
koshJ1m: mostly I am just a bit frustrated that when these issues where brought up it seems none of the devs there cared, they just defended the removal of the system and said to use the new one that has no documentation to say how to use it16:28
betabug-mbindeed, like someone did for zLOG16:28
koshbetabug-mb: that approach I like a lot16:28
betabug-mbbut still I don't get why they rip out the old stuff in the first place16:28
koshbetabug-mb: because then you solve multiple problems in that you keep compatibility and you also make code that serves as documentation on how to upgrade16:28
J1mTechnology evolves.  The new event framework is better.16:29
J1mThe only way to avoid having to adapt to new technology is to avoid upgrades.16:30
betabug-mbJ1m: 99% of zope products don't need to use it, most don't even use manage_afterAdd16:30
J1mand so, presumably, are unaffected.16:30
koshI fully accept that the new system is probably better, just that it is not documented16:30
J1mwell, you can help.16:30
betabug-mbmost people can't come up with any use-cases besides "do something after x is added" anyway16:30
koshcatalog something :)16:31
J1mZTK uses events a fair bit.16:31
J1mEven ZODB publishes events and should publish more.16:31
betabug-mbzope is not a framework that is all "do it yourself", it's an application server that gives you 80-90% of what most people need, ready made16:31
J1mTheir a good way to allow additional processing hooks.16:31
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koshbetabug-mb: maybe we could figure out how the heck events work and write actual docs for it :)16:32
betabug-mbsure, and then wait till they change their stuff again16:33
betabug-mbright now I don't have much trust left16:33
betabug-mbit might return though16:33
J1mbetabug-mb, that's a fair point, but the main people who are maintaining Zope 2 are using it as a framework.16:33
J1mThe tricky bit about events is that it is a layered framework, and you need the document the bits relevent to the reader.16:34
J1mFiguring out the impact on cataloging should be pretty simple.16:34
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koshmostly need to find the equiv of after adding and before deleting16:37
betabug-mbkosh: look at that CMF product Charlie mentioned on zope-dev16:38
koshjust have to find the code for it :)16:38
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betabug-mbshould be on pypi16:40
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koshbetabug-mb: on the plus side if I use events maybe it will be easier to port to pyramid later if the events come from the zodb layer :)16:41
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CIA-83jim 3.9 * r121440 ZODB/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs):18:29
CIA-83Bug Fixed:18:29
CIA-83"activity monitor not updated for subconnections when connection18:29
CIA-83returned to pool"18:29
_mup_Bug #737198: activity monitor not updated for subconnections when connection returned to pool <ZODB:Fix Committed> < >18:29
CIA-83jim 3.9 * r121441 ZODB/src/ (ZEO/tests/ CHANGES.txt ZEO/ (log message trimmed)18:29
CIA-83Bug Fixed18:29
CIA-83- "Blob temp file get's removed before it should",18:29
CIA-83A way this to happen is that a transaction is aborted after the18:29
CIA-83commit process has started. I don't know how this would happen in18:29
CIA-83the wild.18:29
_mup_Bug #595378: Blob temp file get's removed before it should <ZODB:Incomplete> < >18:29
CIA-83jim 3.9 * r121442 ZODB/src/ (BTrees/tests/ ZEO/tests/
CIA-83merged ZODB/branches/tseaver-squelch_2.6_warnings to avoid a warning18:29
CIA-83while running tests.18:29
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CIA-83jim 3.9 * r121443 ZODB/src/CHANGES.txt: Delaying release pending research of a bug.19:44
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