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| savantgarde | can someone explain in simple terms how I can install my distribute-based distribution with buildout? | 14:27 |
|---|---|---|
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| teix | savantgarde: http://www.buildout.org/ | 14:45 |
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| savantgarde | teix: isn't that for an obsolete version of buildout (1.2)? | 14:50 |
| savantgarde | I'm reading the documentation for 1.5 on PyPi, and it's not very straightforward IMO | 14:50 |
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| teix | savantgarde: right sorry! seems to be outdated but what do you want to do specifically? | 14:55 |
| savantgarde | I want to install my distribute-based (setup.py) project into a virtual environment with all its dependencies | 14:57 |
| teix | savantgarde: maybe the best way to use buildout is getting an existing buildout.cfg from a working project like Plone, Django, ... | 14:57 |
| savantgarde | but then I need to know how to use buildout itself as well | 14:58 |
| savantgarde | i.e., commandline usage | 14:58 |
| savantgarde | it's not entirely obvious from the documentation how to invoke it in my case | 14:58 |
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| teix | savantgarde: see http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.buildout#try-out-an-egg for your usecase | 15:02 |
| savantgarde | I'm reading that, but it doesn't really say how to do it with a source distribution | 15:04 |
| savantgarde | it doesn't say it explicitly, but I suspect the egg is to be fetched from pypi | 15:04 |
| savantgarde | also, in my case buildout.cfg should (probably) be in the project root, whereas I want to install it beneath another root | 15:06 |
| teix | savantgarde: you'll only need buildout.cfg and bootstrap.py and it's recommend the use of virtualenv | 15:10 |
| savantgarde | teix: I understand that from 1.5 on you shouldn't use virtualenv | 15:14 |
| savantgarde | instead you can set the option include-site-packages = false | 15:14 |
| savantgarde | in buildout.cfg | 15:14 |
| savantgarde | what does the "install" command to buildout do btw? | 15:17 |
| savantgarde | looks like you can install in the current directory without providing an argument to buildout | 15:18 |
| savantgarde | I'm really confused as to how to achieve my usecase, I've tried and it fails since my project isn't on PyPi | 15:21 |
| savantgarde | I'm sure I can install a development egg, but I don't want that either | 15:21 |
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| savantgarde | it appears to me that buildout requires any distribution to be in a distribution index, even if one wants to install it as a development egg? | 15:37 |
| savantgarde | s/wants/tries/ | 15:37 |
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| savantgarde | I don't actually want to :) | 15:37 |
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| * kosh sets betabug on fire | 15:49 | |
| betabug-mb | hey kosh | 15:49 |
| betabug-mb | how's life? | 15:49 |
| kosh | other then the stuff on zope-dev? | 15:50 |
| savantgarde | is there any standard recipe that allows buildout to install from a source Python distribution? | 15:50 |
| savantgarde | i.e., not from a package index | 15:50 |
| betabug-mb | kosh: yeah, I am not too happy | 15:51 |
| betabug-mb | about that | 15:51 |
| wosc | savantgarde: what do you mean by source distribution? | 15:51 |
| wosc | if it's a tarball, stick in a directory and give [buildout] find-links = thedir | 15:51 |
| savantgarde | wosc: specifically, my project with its setup.py | 15:51 |
| wosc | if it's a checkout (or simlilar), you'll need [buildout] develop = /path/that/contains/setup.py | 15:52 |
| wosc | err, I mean | 15:52 |
| wosc | /path/to/dir, where dir is the one that contains setup.py | 15:52 |
| savantgarde | wosc: how is a checkout different from a source tree? | 15:52 |
| wosc | savantgarde: nevermind | 15:52 |
| savantgarde | it's a Git repo, but that shouldn't matter | 15:52 |
| wosc | yep yep | 15:52 |
| savantgarde | I don't want to install a development egg btw, but a normal egg | 15:53 |
| savantgarde | as in "python setup.py install" | 15:53 |
| betabug-mb | bigkevmcd: still more jobs to fill? :-) | 15:53 |
| wosc | savantgarde: what do you mean by install? | 15:53 |
| bigkevmcd | betabug-mb: expanding the team again | 15:53 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: it seems that most of the devs for it don't care about backwards compatbility or documentation and want nothing more then for everyone to stop using it and they will work as hard as possible to make that happen | 15:53 |
| savantgarde | wosc: same as "python setup.py install", except in an isolated environment | 15:53 |
| betabug-mb | kosh: looks like | 15:53 |
| betabug-mb | your other "reading" seems also correct | 15:53 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: I just don't get why, why try to run the product straight into the ground? | 15:54 |
| betabug-mb | zope will be pushed around a bit by the plone guys, then they'll abandon it | 15:54 |
| wosc | savantgarde: are you sure you want to use buildout? don't get me wrong, buildout is a powerful tool, but if all you're looking for is "easy_install foo" without clobbering site-packages, use virtualenv, not buildout | 15:54 |
| kosh | ah yes that | 15:54 |
| betabug-mb | kosh: you know the old joke about the 10 year marriage? | 15:54 |
| savantgarde | wosc: I've looked at both, I just got the impression that buildout 1.5 can easily replace virtualenv | 15:54 |
| kosh | also hanno did not answer about plone welcoming any help or that it would keep compatibility with itself and provide docs for doing upgrades | 15:55 |
| betabug-mb | for 10 years the lady of the house told her husband to change, "I don't like you doing this, do it that way" etc. | 15:55 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: nope what is it? | 15:55 |
| wosc | savantgarde: that's right, but buildout is an entirely different beast than virtualenv | 15:55 |
| betabug-mb | after 10 years she says "you're not the man I've married any more" | 15:55 |
| savantgarde | wosc: well, I have no experience with either so if buildout supports my case I might as well use that? | 15:55 |
| savantgarde | if it supports my case... | 15:55 |
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| betabug-mb | plone had the philosophy to pin a plone version to a zope version since a long time | 15:56 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: I just don't get why they want to kill off all users, why are they trying so hard to make sure that nobody will use it | 15:56 |
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| betabug-mb | and upgrading meant going through some massive data upgrade dance | 15:56 |
| wosc | savantgarde: buildout supports it, but you'll need to learn about buildout's view of the world | 15:56 |
| betabug-mb | kosh: I don't get it either | 15:56 |
| wosc | savantgarde: so anyway, I think you want [buildout] develop = ... | 15:56 |
| savantgarde | wosc: does that install a development egg though? | 15:56 |
| betabug-mb | they might as well just go to another framework themselves and let zope be abandoned right away | 15:56 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: but it looks like they want to get rid of the zope 2.x requirment for plone but also won't commit to docs or compatibility | 15:56 |
| kosh | well I look at grok and I won't touch that, that just looks like a security disaster | 15:57 |
| kosh | bluebream is not acceptable to me | 15:57 |
| betabug-mb | it looks a bit like "nobody liked Zope 3, so we got angry and will kill Zope 2 anyway" | 15:57 |
| betabug-mb | dunno about grok and security, but grok never "clicked" with me | 15:57 |
| kosh | plone is plone but it did have some nice features added to it salesforce integration and I would not have to write that myself if I used it and a lot of the plone issues I could probably fix | 15:58 |
| kosh | grok fails open | 15:58 |
| betabug-mb | and "where will *I* go" is not really my point | 15:58 |
| wosc | savantgarde: to me, "develop egg" means "buildout gets to the code by reading it from a directory" while "normal egg" means "buildout gets to the code by downloading something from pypi and extracting it" | 15:58 |
| kosh | everything is default allow unless explicitely closed | 15:58 |
| wosc | savantgarde: I don't know what the terms mean to you, though | 15:58 |
| savantgarde | wosc: a development egg is a different installation | 15:58 |
| betabug-mb | but there are some "old" zope products around that are running just fine so far | 15:58 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: I just find it frustrating that I realy don't need much out of zope 2.x to keep going for a very long time | 15:58 |
| savantgarde | it's just installed as a link to the source tree | 15:58 |
| wosc | savantgarde: then I don't know what you want to do | 15:59 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: if all it got was security updates but pretty much did not change outside of that it would probably work for me indefinitely | 15:59 |
| betabug-mb | yeah, could be | 15:59 |
| savantgarde | wosc: a development egg is installed by "python setup.py develop"; I want to install a normal egg, like "python setup.py install" | 15:59 |
| betabug-mb | at least till ipv6 comes along in a big way | 15:59 |
| wosc | savantgarde: buildout does not "install" anything | 15:59 |
| wosc | savantgarde: buildout creates a fine-tuned PYTHONPATH | 15:59 |
| kosh | even that would not be a problem, I don't have zope external facing | 15:59 |
| betabug-mb | doesn't buildout have its own channel? | 15:59 |
| kosh | so nginx would do the ipv6 part | 16:00 |
| savantgarde | wosc: besides, when I try "develop" now it fails due to not finding a distribution (on PyPi?) | 16:00 |
| betabug-mb | yeah, with a web server in front, it would probably not matter | 16:00 |
| betabug-mb | unless the world goes 100% ipv6 only, even for localhost connections :-) | 16:00 |
| kosh | that would be weird to have happen | 16:00 |
| betabug-mb | well, things happen | 16:00 |
| kosh | and considering all the hardware that is ipv4 only and will never be fixed ipv4 is going to stay around for a VERY long time | 16:00 |
| betabug-mb | I guess so too | 16:01 |
| savantgarde | wosc: buildout installs into your buildout directory no? otherwise, what's on the PYTHONPATH? | 16:01 |
| wosc | savantgarde: look at http://dpaste.com/533177/ for example | 16:01 |
| kosh | however zope 2.x can use wsgi now I think also so could have nginx talk to that | 16:01 |
| wosc | savantgarde: the first entry comes from a "develop" line, the others are "normal" eggs | 16:01 |
| wosc | savantgarde: could you paste the error message you get? (also try bin/buildout -vvv for more info) | 16:01 |
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| savantgarde | wosc: Error: Couldn't find a distribution for 'fbt' | 16:03 |
| betabug-mb | well, I don't think I can tell my next customer to use Zope for a new project - given the state of things | 16:03 |
| wosc | savantgarde: could you also paste your buildout.cfg? | 16:03 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: one thing I have noticed is that pyramid can still use zeo, it can do a default closed security and the code is compatible enough that I might be able to switch over that and keep my current data compatibility | 16:03 |
| betabug-mb | yes, pyramid has some similarities | 16:03 |
| betabug-mb | but it's much more "roll your own", instead of "batteries included" | 16:04 |
| savantgarde | wosc: http://dpaste.com/533180/ | 16:04 |
| betabug-mb | that might be good sometimes, but has to be kept in mind | 16:04 |
| betabug-mb | and mcdonc seems to have *very* different ideas about the importance of backward compatibility and API contracts | 16:04 |
| wosc | savantgarde: looks reasonable, so if '.' contains the setup.py for 'fbt', it ought to work... | 16:05 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: since my product never depended on anything outside the most basic parts of zope I might be able to make it work | 16:05 |
| betabug-mb | that dance about manage_afterAdd being deprecated or not depending on the day of week and phase of the moon is a disgrace | 16:05 |
| savantgarde | wosc: . does contain setup.py, yes | 16:05 |
| wosc | savantgarde: then I'm stumped for now, I'm afraid | 16:06 |
| betabug-mb | I don't have "one product" and I can't easily sell my customers onto a big job like rewriting their app to a new framework | 16:06 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: I would have to mock up enough classes that pyramid could load my existing zeo but I think that is doable | 16:06 |
| savantgarde | wosc: ok thanks any; I think I'll try stackoverflow | 16:06 |
| betabug-mb | s/app/apps/ | 16:06 |
| betabug-mb | kosh: yeah, in that case it could be an option | 16:07 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: I kind of build just about everything into a large master product although I have started seperating parts out into a library | 16:07 |
| betabug-mb | I have different stuff - and some of it is old and crufty from when I started out | 16:07 |
| betabug-mb | still runs fine though ;-) | 16:08 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: the problem is I don't see much else outside of pyramid that is really workable right now, at least pyramid has a real security model | 16:08 |
| betabug-mb | but I wouldn't like to show that code around, haha | 16:08 |
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| kosh | I keep upgrading mine and all our sites use the same code regardless of age | 16:08 |
| kosh | the biggest problem for me is python scripts inside the zodb since nothing else will support that | 16:08 |
| betabug-mb | in pyramid you could probably write a security subsystem that mimics what you have in zope 100% | 16:08 |
| kosh | and it looks like zope 2.x is trying to wip that out anyways | 16:08 |
| kosh | well it looked like pyramid had something like security.declarePrivate you coudl put for every method just like a do now | 16:09 |
| kosh | just a very slightly different format | 16:09 |
| betabug-mb | I wonder how long till they will rip out acquisition and class inheritance | 16:09 |
| kosh | but it looked like a search and replace could do that | 16:09 |
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| betabug-mb | yes, it's in the "view definition" thing | 16:09 |
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| kosh | it just seems like zope 2.x is still such a great product and you can still do such amazing things with it and they are absolutely determined to kill it | 16:10 |
| betabug-mb | indeed | 16:10 |
| kosh | I still have not seen anything else that make reuse of components as easy, or is as quick to develop for while still offering amazing security | 16:10 |
| betabug-mb | well, to them we're just those old lunatics that nobody has to listen to | 16:10 |
| kosh | I have gone up against ruby on rails devs and a bunch of others and usually absolutely kill them on development speed while also ending up with a system that works better | 16:10 |
| kosh | what I don't get is if they hate it so much why are they spending so much time working so hard to kill it | 16:11 |
| kosh | zope + zeo is just so dang reliable | 16:12 |
| betabug-mb | yes | 16:12 |
| kosh | when I was playing with relstorage and also played with pgpool when I had over 200 simul connections sometimes the system would just stop | 16:12 |
| kosh | no errors anywhere but postgres and pgpool would stop doing anything | 16:12 |
| betabug-mb | some kind of deadlock | 16:12 |
| betabug-mb | db connection pool depleted or something | 16:13 |
| kosh | when I did searching on pgpool it was a known problem but they did not know what caused it but they did not seem to consider it very serious | 16:13 |
| kosh | since you can just restart it again | 16:13 |
| betabug-mb | haha | 16:13 |
| kosh | and that idea just seems foreign to me | 16:13 |
| kosh | I can leave my zope + zeo systems running for a year and I have every confidence at the end of that year they would all still be running | 16:13 |
| kosh | it just seems that most of the modern software doesn't even try to make stuff really reliable | 16:14 |
| kosh | they just expect you to babysit it or have another program constantly babysit it and restart it fairly often | 16:14 |
| * J1m wonders who the "they" who is trying to kill zope 2 is. | 16:16 | |
| betabug-mb | J1m: how about the people who constantly declare it dead and tell people to move away from it? | 16:17 |
| kosh | several people in zope-dev seemed pretty intent that zope 2.x is dead and that people should stop using it | 16:18 |
| kosh | and features are removed that apps used with no docs on how to upgrade them | 16:18 |
| kosh | it makes it pretty hostile to use | 16:18 |
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| betabug-mb | the thinking seems to be "it's dead anyway, so you should not mind if we drop backwards compatibility" | 16:19 |
| J1m | I'm sorry to hear that. | 16:19 |
| J1m | Of course, I don't use it any more. :) | 16:20 |
| kosh | I don't know how new people would be able to develop with it since the event system is not documented and the older system is being stripped | 16:20 |
| betabug-mb | the story about manage_afterAdd being deprecated / undeprecated / deprecated is a shame | 16:20 |
| kosh | J1m: I just wish that the people maintaining it where not so hostile towards anyone using it and trying so hard to kill it | 16:20 |
| J1m | Maybe people who care about backward compatibility should get more involved in development. | 16:21 |
| J1m | FWIW, I have the same frustration with the Python maintainers. | 16:21 |
| betabug-mb | J1m: I said I'd want to do that - no reply to that part | 16:21 |
| kosh | it seems pretty hard to get involved, I have offered for some of those things also but it was ignored | 16:21 |
| betabug-mb | as I'm going to have a bit more time on my hands now and I've got some interest in the matter, it comes naturally to me | 16:21 |
| kosh | J1m: I absolutely agree about python 3.x sure making life hard for very little gain | 16:22 |
| betabug-mb | of course I'm not a coding superstar, so maybe I deserve it ;-) | 16:22 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: I would definitely be willing to work with you to make some of that stuff work | 16:22 |
| J1m | I think, in general, Python maintainers don't have any understanding of people writing non-trivial apps. | 16:22 |
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| kosh | betabug-mb: would be nice to make it so that CatalogPathAwareness was a shim over the new event system if possible | 16:23 |
| kosh | J1m: I kind of feel that way about python devs and the zope devs right now | 16:23 |
| kosh | J1m: and looking around at other systems I don't see many systems that look like they are robust and stable development platforms that I can really build apps to run long term with outside of java | 16:24 |
| kosh | J1m: and java is not really something I want to do but at least they seem to take reliability and compatibility a lot more seriously | 16:24 |
| betabug-mb | kosh: they had their share of reinventing wheels and throwing the old ones away | 16:24 |
| betabug-mb | maybe they've just cooled down a bit | 16:24 |
| kosh | it seems most systems are built with the idea that whatever you build today in about 2 years you will burn down and start completely voer with | 16:25 |
| kosh | s/voer/over | 16:25 |
| betabug-mb | too bad my customers don't subscribe to that point of view | 16:25 |
| kosh | mine don't either | 16:25 |
| kosh | they want web stuff to work like a lot of their other apps do | 16:26 |
| J1m | kosh, betabug-mb some high level suggestion, without digging in: | 16:26 |
| J1m | - consider maintaining an older zope 2 release rather than upgrading | 16:26 |
| kosh | continual work over the years to keep something updated but never burn down and start over | 16:26 |
| J1m | - learn the difference bwteen the old and new catalog update frameworks and write a how-to to help people | 16:26 |
| betabug-mb | J1m: yeah, I was thinking about that | 16:27 |
| betabug-mb | but I think it would be a shame to just get stuck in a world of one's own | 16:27 |
| J1m | - Maybe write a shim package that helps who don't want to modify their apps. You could release this on your own. | 16:27 |
| betabug-mb | J1m: or write a thin layer over the old stuff, with the API of the new stuff | 16:28 |
| kosh | J1m: mostly I am just a bit frustrated that when these issues where brought up it seems none of the devs there cared, they just defended the removal of the system and said to use the new one that has no documentation to say how to use it | 16:28 |
| betabug-mb | indeed, like someone did for zLOG | 16:28 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: that approach I like a lot | 16:28 |
| betabug-mb | but still I don't get why they rip out the old stuff in the first place | 16:28 |
| kosh | betabug-mb: because then you solve multiple problems in that you keep compatibility and you also make code that serves as documentation on how to upgrade | 16:28 |
| J1m | Technology evolves. The new event framework is better. | 16:29 |
| J1m | The only way to avoid having to adapt to new technology is to avoid upgrades. | 16:30 |
| betabug-mb | J1m: 99% of zope products don't need to use it, most don't even use manage_afterAdd | 16:30 |
| J1m | and so, presumably, are unaffected. | 16:30 |
| kosh | I fully accept that the new system is probably better, just that it is not documented | 16:30 |
| J1m | well, you can help. | 16:30 |
| betabug-mb | most people can't come up with any use-cases besides "do something after x is added" anyway | 16:30 |
| kosh | catalog something :) | 16:31 |
| J1m | ZTK uses events a fair bit. | 16:31 |
| J1m | Even ZODB publishes events and should publish more. | 16:31 |
| betabug-mb | zope is not a framework that is all "do it yourself", it's an application server that gives you 80-90% of what most people need, ready made | 16:31 |
| J1m | Their a good way to allow additional processing hooks. | 16:31 |
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| kosh | betabug-mb: maybe we could figure out how the heck events work and write actual docs for it :) | 16:32 |
| betabug-mb | sure, and then wait till they change their stuff again | 16:33 |
| betabug-mb | right now I don't have much trust left | 16:33 |
| betabug-mb | it might return though | 16:33 |
| J1m | betabug-mb, that's a fair point, but the main people who are maintaining Zope 2 are using it as a framework. | 16:33 |
| J1m | The tricky bit about events is that it is a layered framework, and you need the document the bits relevent to the reader. | 16:34 |
| J1m | Figuring out the impact on cataloging should be pretty simple. | 16:34 |
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| kosh | mostly need to find the equiv of after adding and before deleting | 16:37 |
| betabug-mb | kosh: look at that CMF product Charlie mentioned on zope-dev | 16:38 |
| kosh | just have to find the code for it :) | 16:38 |
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| betabug-mb | should be on pypi | 16:40 |
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| kosh | betabug-mb: on the plus side if I use events maybe it will be easier to port to pyramid later if the events come from the zodb layer :) | 16:41 |
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| CIA-83 | jim 3.9 * r121440 ZODB/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | Bug Fixed: | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | "activity monitor not updated for subconnections when connection | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | returned to pool" | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/zodb/+bug/737198 | 18:29 |
| _mup_ | Bug #737198: activity monitor not updated for subconnections when connection returned to pool <ZODB:Fix Committed> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/737198 > | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | jim 3.9 * r121441 ZODB/src/ (ZEO/tests/testZEO.py CHANGES.txt ZEO/ServerStub.py): (log message trimmed) | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | Bug Fixed | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | - "Blob temp file get's removed before it should", | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | https://bugs.launchpad.net/zodb/+bug/595378 | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | A way this to happen is that a transaction is aborted after the | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | commit process has started. I don't know how this would happen in | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | the wild. | 18:29 |
| _mup_ | Bug #595378: Blob temp file get's removed before it should <ZODB:Incomplete> < https://launchpad.net/bugs/595378 > | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | jim 3.9 * r121442 ZODB/src/ (BTrees/tests/test_compare.py ZEO/tests/zeoserver.py): | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | merged ZODB/branches/tseaver-squelch_2.6_warnings to avoid a warning | 18:29 |
| CIA-83 | while running tests. | 18:29 |
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| CIA-83 | jim 3.9 * r121443 ZODB/src/CHANGES.txt: Delaying release pending research of a bug. | 19:44 |
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