IRC log of #zope for Tuesday, 2011-06-28

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betabugwas anywhere mentioned which zope versions the security fix will affect? (the one coming out at 15:00UTC)10:36
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bigkevmcdbetabug: "All recent versions of Zope are affected." isn't terribly helpful :-)10:50
betabugyeah, that's what I thought10:58
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planetzopebotHow to inject template code in Plone? (active questions tagged zope - Stack Overflow)
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marche1990Is there a newer MySQL adapter for zope than ??12:57
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betabughmmm, not waiting even 15 minutes for an answer? great13:11
mcdoncdouble question marks at the end of a sentence means "i really want to know"13:35
mcdoncjust in case you were wondering13:36
betabugyeah, but leaving right after would mean "I don't want to know really"13:36
betabugoh oh13:37
betabugsorry, that was for another #13:37
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* kosh sets betabug on fire15:47
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betabug"Zope 2.10 and 2.11 users who have not installed PloneHotfix20110720 are not affected by this vulnerability"16:13
betabugwhich probably means older versions will be fine too16:14
koshit is interesting16:15
koshthat still means that most of my servers are probably affected since they are 2.12 but none run plone16:15
betabugreading in the tea leaves, seems to be something that went wrong with an older security hotfix16:15
betabug this one16:16
koshwhat is also interesting is a mention of PluggableAuthService  which is related to the same vulnerability16:16
do3cc_betabug, is there a not too much?16:16
betabugdo3cc_: what?16:16
betabugI bet the problem is in this part: "a patch to the ZPublisher to fix an issue with the checking of whether traversed methods are publishable"16:16
betabugdo3cc_: I couldn't parse "is there a not too much?"16:17
koshpretty good call on that one16:17
do3cc_"Zope 2.10 and 2.11 users who have not installed PloneHotfix20110720  are not affected by this vulnerability" <- is there a not too much in this sentence?16:17
betabugdo3cc_: no16:18
betabugto me this means that PloneHotfix20110720 introduced the bug16:18
koshso no security hotfixes since august 2008 and now we get one because of a plone fix ;)16:19
betabug*if* my theory is right - I might be totally off16:19
do3cc_seeing the announcement now16:19
do3cc_I'd bet a beer for it16:19
koshthe patch should be out in about 1 hour and 40 minutes16:20
betabugwell, if 2.9 and 2.10 are not affected, I'm off the hook16:21
betabuganother win for slacking16:22
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koshI went to 2.12 though because it was so much faster and blob support16:23
koshit is amazing how secure older versions of zope are though16:24
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betabugof course it might be that older versions are actually affected and "secrecy" or lack of interest in old stuff results in us not learning the details16:24
koshcan you imagine take any other older version of any other web framework and using that?16:24
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kosha 2 year old version of rails, php, other python frameworks, java frameworks etc would fall in seconds16:24
betabugkosh: sure I can imagine, but I can also imagine the consequences :-)16:24
betabugwell, the PloneHotfix20110720 said in its code "# patch not needed in Zope 2.9", so there is hope for me16:32
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betabugok, so 2.9 is not affected16:51
* kosh blames betabug for that16:53
betabugyou blame me for 2.9 *not* being affected?16:53
do3cc_for 2.10 being16:53
koshyeah you should have to do all this patching also! :)16:54
koshwhile your country melts down from financial problems16:54
betabugdo3cc_: 2.10 is only if you've put on that previous fix16:55
kosh2.10 only if you use plone pretty much16:55
betabugwhich goes in the category "mistakes I've learned to avoid a *long* time ago" for me16:56
koshwhat I wonder about is how serious is the security issue if plone is not involved16:57
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betabugI guess there is some trick to get access to something in the acquisition path16:58
koshbetabug: because when I have tried to access restricted resources they still all seem to be restricted but I have explicit security permissions on every method16:58
koshyeah probably16:58
betabugyou could compare the patch from the old hotfix to what's in the zope source and see what you get16:59
betabugbut the new patch will come out any minute and probably with some explanations16:59
koshnope an hour from now16:59
betabugdamn time zone conversion, haha17:01
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koshI just did a serach for current time UTC on google :)17:02
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planetzopebotSecurity announcement update (gmane.comp.web.zope.announce)
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koshgreetings evil hannosch17:43
hannoschgreetings, 15 minutes to new Zope releases17:43
koshyeah betabug has been snickering that since he is on 2.9 he gets to ignore this security problem :)17:44
* kosh beats betabug with a stick17:44
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betabugslacking pays off17:47
betabug"my" servers are either on 2.9 or 2.10 and ofcoz no plone anywhere17:48
hannoschbetabug: you do know that Python has security fixes witch aren't in 2.4 anymore, right? Python 2.4 and Zope < 2.12 are unsupported and it's only a question of time until someone finds an exploitable issue17:48
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betabugbut I'm not doing this for a hobby - if the server's owners don't pay for upgrading their apps, I can't force them17:49
koshthere is certainly that17:50
hannoschsure, wait until they got hacked :)17:50
koshI keep all my apps on the same codebase so when I do codebase testing for a new version of zope I move them all up17:50
koshhannosch: well that is what most people do on any other web framework at least17:50
koshhannosch: I have noticed that very few customers will pay for prevention and real maintenance17:50
hannoschit depends on what they are aiming for and how critical the site is to their business17:51
hannoschI think we have solved support/maintenance agreements to most customers after doing project work for them17:51
betabuglast month I helped "fix" an old app built on 2.9/CMF and some weird code base - what should I tell them? "pay to build it all from scratch"?17:53
betabugor "you should have made a service contract with whoever made that app" ?17:54
koshI have dealt with many companies that don't have the money they once did and have had to cut things back17:54
kosheven some pretty big companies have cut way back on spending and that includes maintenance17:54
betabugthat app went through 3 hands or so17:54
koshthankfully zope stands up vastly better then other frameworks even on little maintenance17:54
betabugyeah, that's good luck for those companies17:55
betabugother than that I have no easy solution for them, since new zope releases puts blocks in their way, requiring code to be rewritten17:56
betabugin case of an old CMF app, I can't even start to imagine how much work it would involve17:56
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koshhmm won't load for me, the browser is just spinning on it18:01 is ooold too18:01
koshI wish more things would use my unique urls it provides such an insane speedup18:02
koshI have sites that went from 3 seconds to render to .5 seconds18:02
koshthat is a big saving in server load and it means you can serve more people on the same hardware18:02
koshhmm so far I don't see the file to download anywhere18:03
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koshjust got it18:06
ChrisWso, where's the code for this security fix then?18:06
ChrisWit only affect PAS?18:07
hannoschfull details at
ChrisWhannosch: ...which doesn't give any details.18:07
ChrisWguess I'll just have a nose around the hotfix...18:08
hannoschif that's still cached try
ChrisW...which still doesn't give much detail of what the affected components are18:10
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hannoschChrisW: look at the svn-commits if you want more detail18:11
ChrisWwhen were those commits made and where?18:12
ChrisWlooked for them after the announcement last week and found nothing...18:12
hannoschChrisW: there were made 15 minutes ago18:13
hannoschnot much point in pre-announcing a hotfix if you can see the result a week before18:13
ChrisWpersonally, I find the withholding of patches in general to be offensive18:14
hannoschwithholding? we are only doing a coordinated release, as this is such a critical flaw18:15
hannoschI'd call that responsible18:15
ChrisWshrugs, potato potato18:15
koshwel I have all my systems patching18:18
betabugpre-announcing was ok for me, but I would have preferred the exact version info earlier - I understand that those infos would have given the issue away to a determined attacker though18:19
koshI will watch my error logs to see if I run into any bugs but I got all of my servers patched and everything seems to be working18:20
betabugkosh: leave your email address on the server, so the evil hax0rs can send you a notice when they pwned you ;-)18:22
koshhowever it does seem that this bug ahs been treated far more seriously then more serious bugs I have seen in other framework which barely make the patchnotes18:28
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koshof course if you had as many security issues to refer to as most web frameworks you could never cover them like this18:28
hannoschwell, being able to read any data from your database and file system (with enough expertise) sounds dangerous to me18:29
koshyes very dangerous18:29
ChrisWisn't that what PHP does by design? ;-)18:29
koshbut not any worse then all the sql injection exploits that routinely show up in minor patches18:29
koshhowever this is a big deal for zope since zope is supposed to fail closed when almost all other web systems are fail open18:30
ChrisWfor the Zope2-only patch, I'm still trying to figure out what the vulterability is..18:30
koshhannosch: my point is that zope seems to take security far far more seriously18:30
koshChrisW: there is a way to construct a url such that you can read any resource without authentication is my understanding18:31
ChrisWalso, how can I run the log checker over a whole dir of .gzip'ed logs...18:31
koshwhat log checker?18:31
hannoschkosh: sure, we don't have a security issue every week or months. one of the strong selling points18:31
koshhannosch: or even ever year18:31
koshhannosch: the last hotfix was auguest 200818:31
hannoschChrisW: you are looking at the wrong one. that's an older vulnerability18:32
ChrisWhannosch: it was linked from the latest entry on plone.org18:32
ChrisWhannosch: not correct on 2008:
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koshChrisW: ah I did not see the 2010 one when I was looking through the list of hotfixes18:34
betabugkosh: yeah, it's the one that this one was referring to18:34
koshwhat was that one about?18:36
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hannoschthe last one was about missing security declarations, so for example all data stored in any catalog could be read by anyone18:38
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berniehello... has anyone succeeded at installing the 20110622 Plone hotfix?18:38
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berniebuildout fails saying that it can't find the script...18:39
ChrisWhannosch: by url access or by writing code through the zmi?18:39
hannoschChrisW: url access18:40
ChrisWso how did the privilege escalation work on that one? was it announced through zope-announce?18:40
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planetzopebotSecurity Hotfix 20110622 released (gmane.comp.web.zope.announce)
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jpfariashello there!19:52
jpfariasanyone knows if it is possible to copy objects from one zodb to another?19:52
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jpfariasI have one zodb file (Data.fs)19:52
jpfariasbut pack is failing on it for some reason I dont know19:53
jpfariasso I want to make a new Data.fs19:53
jpfariasand copy all important objects to it19:53
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do3cc_jpfarias: thats not how it works19:55
jpfariasdo3cc_:  yeah I know19:55
koshexport and then import and you can see if your failed objects are in the ones you care about19:55
koshhowever if you have a damaged Data.fs file you better find out if your hardware is failing because outside of hardware failures a damaged Data.fs file is extremely rare19:56
jpfariasso this is not a zope application, it is running on pyramid framework19:56
do3cc_do you have a traceback_19:56
jpfariasI just figured zope developers have a lot of experience with zodb, so I could ask here19:56
jpfariasdarn, I had the traceback19:56
betabugwell, probably you want to truncate the Data.fs19:56
jpfariasI would need to pack again to get it19:57
jpfariasthe db is now 83GB19:57
jpfariasand it takes forever to get to the error when I try to pack19:57
jpfariasit was failing with KeyError19:57
jpfariasnot PosKeyError19:57
jpfariasthe key was 'Defaul' if I remember well19:58
jpfariasI can figure the line the error was happening19:58
do3cc_that sounds like you changed your data structures and now you have pickles for objects from your old class and your new classes try to work on them19:59
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jpfariasline 26719:59
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koshwe need a full traceback, not just part of one line of a traceback20:00
jpfariaslemme try to reproduce it20:01
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jpfariasit looks like I can navigate thru the whole tree of objects20:04
jpfariasand they work fine20:04
jpfariasso if I could just get the most recent copy of them20:04
jpfariasand store on another Data.fs20:04
jpfariasthat would save my ass20:04
jpfariasis that not an option?20:04
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koshsomewhere in that tree something is damaged, since it is 83GB and you could not check that much by hand you have just not found the broken objects20:05
koshyou need to find and fix the problem20:06
koshalso find out why your ZODB is 83GB20:06
jpfariasyeah I made a walker that goes thru every branch of the objects tree20:06
jpfariasit takes a while to finish20:06
jpfariasbut it gets there20:06
jpfariasso my application is a crawler20:06
do3cc_do you have biig objects in there?20:06
jpfariasthat gets data from some sites on the web20:07
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jpfariasso it has like 10k updates a day20:07
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jpfariasand I didn't pack for a few weeks now20:07
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jpfariasbecause of this error I am getting20:07
jpfariasusually it would stay around 12~15GB after a pack20:07
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do3cc_when you touch EACH object in the zodb, you do not get an error?20:09
do3cc_nope as in yes, I do not get an error?20:09
jpfariasyeah, no error20:10
jpfariasthe application is running too20:10
jpfariasand it doesnt give any error20:10
jpfariasso it really confuses me20:10
jpfariaswhy pack() is not working20:11
jpfariaswhere can I paste the traceback?20:11
do3cc_if I understand it correctly, the code starts with the oldest object in zodb and looks, if it is somehow reachable. If it is, it cannot be removed20:12
do3cc_so it will touch objects you can't20:13
jpfariasI have this error too20:14
jpfariasit might be the source of my problems20:14
jpfariasif I do something similar to what is suggested on this post20:14
jpfariasI get past this error20:14
jpfariasbut then the other error comes up20:14
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jpfariasI am getting picklingError tho20:18
jpfariasnot attributeerror20:18
jpfariasyou think it is safe to ignore that error too?20:18
jpfariasI would like to understand why I get that error tho20:19
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jpfariasthis is what I get if I do the try/except trick20:32
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jpfariashmm, jim says the pack can be done without gc20:40
jpfariassince  zodb 3.920:40
jpfariashow do I do that?20:40
jpfariasor was that removed in 3.10?20:41
jpfariasonly options I see for pack() it t and days20:41
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jpfariasguess I will have to do some export / import script21:01
jpfariasto start with a fresh db21:02
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mizzmetalWould anyone be able to guide me to where I could see if is applicable for zope2.7.4 (I know, its old, but sometimes thats just life.)  The article mentions that zope 2.8 and 2.9 aren't affected.22:01
koshwell if 2.8 is not affected then 2.7 would not be either22:02
koshunless it is runnong one of the affected versions of plone22:03
mizzmetalThanks, Kosh.22:06
mizzmetalI'm not familiar with zope; but that security bulletin was something I was asked to investigate. Is there a quick way I can determine the version of plone running on my zope stacks?22:06
koshthat I have no idea about, I don't use plone I just know about the zope version itself22:08
koshhowever as someone pointed out earlier running a version of zope that old does have security issues already since it is running on an old python also22:08
mizzmetalGood point, Kosh.22:09
mizzmetalI appreciate the help!22:09
mizzmetaltake care.22:09
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