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| nobodydotpy | Hi all! Does anybody know the reason for this issue: http://paste.lisp.org/display/137655 ? | 20:21 |
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| RichyB | nobodydotpy: oh god, why are you trying to use ZClasses? | 20:59 |
| RichyB | Why are you trying to use Zope 2.9.1? | 21:00 |
| RichyB | Your underlying issue appears to be that you're trying to develop software using a really-widely-disliked corner of a very old and unsupported version of Zope. | 21:00 |
| nobodydotpy | RichyB, I'm trying to learn Zope, so I'm trying to understand ZClasses in order to understand the creation of Zope Products in python code | 21:00 |
| RichyB | To start with, switch to Zope 2.13 at least. | 21:01 |
| nobodydotpy | For what I've read in the Zope Bible, learning ZClasses have helped me to "glue" in some concepts necessary for creating Zope Products | 21:01 |
| nobodydotpy | But I got stuck in the issue a mention before... | 21:02 |
| RichyB | That book is ancient. | 21:03 |
| nobodydotpy | I have 2.13 installed, 2.10 and 2.9 | 21:03 |
| nobodydotpy | The book mentions 2.5, but since the old.zope.org is down, I couldn't give 2.5 any try yet. | 21:04 |
| RichyB | Unfortunately, because Zope has been around so long, there are lots of tutorials that revolve around the really-crufty bits of Zope. Sounds like yours is one. | 21:04 |
| RichyB | I would advise you to learn from something newer such as: http://www.upfrontsystems.co.za/courses/zope/ch04.html | 21:05 |
| RichyB | That article covers the creation of slightly-newer-style zope Products, where your product consists of a folder full of Python code and page templates that gets dropped into an instance's products directory. | 21:06 |
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| betabug | there is also the BetaBoring tutorial, which is even a bit more concentrated | 21:08 |
| RichyB | I don't know where that is. | 21:08 |
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| betabug | google probably knows ;-) | 21:09 |
| nobodydotpy | I've read the zope book, the ZODB docs and then I started the ZDG, but I must confess that due my own limitations in understanding the core concepts, sometimes things look "airy" for me and some pieces don't fit into the broad picture | 21:09 |
| betabug | http://papakiteliatziar.gr/BetaBoring IIRC | 21:09 |
| nobodydotpy | that's why I came to dig in for the earlier stuff. | 21:09 |
| RichyB | I'm googling around for better introductory information at the moment because I'm looking for something that'd cover newer egg-style products which get loaded from site.zcml | 21:09 |
| nobodydotpy | but I'll read that | 21:09 |
| betabug | nobodydotpy: why did you choose to start with Zope 2? | 21:09 |
| RichyB | betabug: thanks, googling "BetaBoring tutorial" came up with nothing for me. | 21:10 |
| betabug | hmm, duckduckgo finds it on first hit for [BetaBoring] | 21:10 |
| nobodydotpy | Well, I tried other things, but I really liked the Zope way | 21:10 |
| betabug | are there people still using google? | 21:10 |
| nobodydotpy | <lame answer... > | 21:11 |
| betabug | all the cool zope dudes seem to be using pyramid now | 21:11 |
| RichyB | Yeah, if you're developing web applications from scratch now I'd advise you to pick a framework like Pyramid over Zope. | 21:11 |
| nobodydotpy | betabug, I've heard about pyramid, grok and repoze | 21:12 |
| betabug | repoze -> now pyramid | 21:12 |
| betabug | grok -> not very much used I guess | 21:12 |
| RichyB | Pyramid is particularly nice. Chris McDonough (mcdonc) and a bunch of people pretty much took all of the nice things out of Zope and made a new framework. | 21:12 |
| betabug | pyramid has *excellent* documentation | 21:12 |
| betabug | and you can use zodb and traversal and a bunch of other good zope concepts | 21:13 |
| RichyB | Yeah, repoze turned into pyramid. | 21:13 |
| nobodydotpy | Then I stumbled on the Jim Fulton's article about zope. And he was right. Learning Zope, even not using it, made understand lots of useful things | 21:13 |
| RichyB | grok is, AIUI, a confusing fork of some zope concepts? To me it looked like a convention-over-configuration reskin of Zope3 or Products.Five. I'd rather use Pyramid. | 21:14 |
| nobodydotpy | Does it support Zope Page Templates? | 21:14 |
| RichyB | I say "confusing", I mean "I couldn't find a precise description of what conventions got turned into what ZCA registrations." | 21:14 |
| RichyB | Pyramid supports (comes with out of the box, I think) a really nice templating engine called Chameleon that is mostly identical to ZPT | 21:15 |
| RichyB | It uses the same "tal:" namespace attributes for control over which elements get emitted and such. | 21:15 |
| nobodydotpy | Yeah, I know it. It's amazing. I used it with django. | 21:15 |
| nobodydotpy | It's easy to extend, too | 21:16 |
| betabug | what you notice in pyramid is that mcdonc and the other guys have a *ton* of experience with this stuff | 21:16 |
| RichyB | It runs a lot faster, it has a better syntax for string interpolation, it drops the complication of having an extra TALES expression language in favour of just using Python. | 21:16 |
| nobodydotpy | Yes, that's right | 21:16 |
| RichyB | The way I like to describe it is, the Zope community (which mcdonc and friends come from) have been doing web applications in Python since forever. Zope has collectively had, and implemented, almost every single good and bad idea that anyone ever had. Pyramid is a distillation of mostly just the good ones. :) | 21:17 |
| nobodydotpy | he-he. Good concept. But I must tell you one thing: I'm not tech guy. I have an arts degree in communication. Just got to learn python when I was in the university for an assignment we had for analysing any know language on earth | 21:19 |
| nobodydotpy | people choose, German, Dutch, Spanish, Greek, Chinese. | 21:19 |
| nobodydotpy | O chose python | 21:19 |
| nobodydotpy | And I loved it | 21:19 |
| nobodydotpy | *I chose python | 21:20 |
| nobodydotpy | So today I keep studying it because I still like it | 21:20 |
| nobodydotpy | And zope came to be interesting | 21:21 |
| nobodydotpy | really interesting, acutally | 21:21 |
| nobodydotpy | *actually | 21:21 |
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| nobodydotpy | I imagine, how you guys, who make a living working with web development see things, being productivity really important | 21:22 |
| nobodydotpy | I must say that I'm a bunch of cornerstones behind you. | 21:23 |
| nobodydotpy | That's why I'm still limited in understand some core concepts | 21:25 |
| nobodydotpy | *understanding | 21:27 |
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| nobodydotpy | This UPFront Systems is nice, from the table of contents to the approach they use. Thanks, RichyB. | 21:32 |
| nobodydotpy | *UPFront Systems Course | 21:32 |
| RichyB | Oh good. ☺ | 21:32 |
| RichyB | BTW, since you're coming to programming from outside, has anyone showed you what version control is? | 21:33 |
| nobodydotpy | nope. | 21:33 |
| nobodydotpy | But googling it took me to http://git-scm.com/book/en/Getting-Started-About-Version-Control | 21:34 |
| RichyB | Oh great. Well, version control systems are programs that let you keep track of the history of your code so that you won't ever need to lose old versions. | 21:34 |
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| RichyB | Once you're comfortable with them, it's much easier to browse back and forward in time with something like git or svn than it is to have a million copies of every file called "file.py.old" "file.py.old2" "file.py.old3"… | 21:36 |
| RichyB | There are a couple of nice tutorials on the web that will introduce you to git and possibly github. | 21:36 |
| nobodydotpy | Thus, one can keep all work organized time-wise. | 21:37 |
| RichyB | Yeah, and you never have to do silly things like leave obsolete code lying around commented-out. You can just go ahead and keep everything clean because you already saved the historical crap in your version control system. | 21:39 |
| nobodydotpy | Interesting... In your opinion, what skills anyone should acquire in order to be able to engage in an open-source (freely, collaborative) project? | 21:40 |
| nobodydotpy | betabug, thanks for link. I had already tried the minimal product and the boring product tutorial this beta boring is new for me. | 21:42 |
| RichyB | You need to be able to do something useful and you need to be able to make your work available to other people. | 21:43 |
| RichyB | For a lot of us that means knowing how to program and how to share work on code through something like github | 21:43 |
| nobodydotpy | and following the PEPs ans well as documenting the code... | 21:44 |
| RichyB | Programming is not the only thing that needs to be done by a long shot, though. | 21:44 |
| RichyB | e.g. if you can write documentation that human beings can under stand, or you can translate text into different languages, that's all really valuable work too. | 21:46 |
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| nobodydotpy | Nice, that's something I'd like to be part of. | 21:49 |
| RichyB | or say a competent graphic designer could find *loads* of open-source projects that would benefit from having their logos redesigned. ;) | 21:50 |
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| nobodydotpy | RichyB, I'm installing pyramid here... Does it use paster? | 22:08 |
| RichyB | Hop into #pyramid, please. ☺ | 22:09 |
| RichyB | Pyramid applications can be run with paster. | 22:10 |
| RichyB | I'm not sure whether they use paster for templating now or not, but… | 22:10 |
| RichyB | There is a really good tutorial on the Pyramid documentation website. ☺ | 22:11 |
| nobodydotpy | Yeah, I'll hop into there for sure. | 22:11 |
| nobodydotpy | I'm taking a look at it, both the "Creating Your First Pyramid Application" and "Creating a Pyramid Project"... | 22:12 |
| nobodydotpy | But I'll switch to the pyramid channel | 22:12 |
| nobodydotpy | thanks RichyB! | 22:12 |
| RichyB | You can be in two IRC channels at once. :) | 22:12 |
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| nobodydotpy | Hehehe! Me no man of two women! Hehehe | 22:14 |
| nobodydotpy | just kidding | 22:14 |
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