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| jakke | I'm still stuck here, anyone an idea why document_view appears in the undo log every now and then? | 10:11 |
|---|---|---|
| jakke | when the document_view fails to resolve the portal id and username, it also messes up portlets and corrupting data | 10:11 |
| betabug | maybe #plone is a better place to ask this? | 10:13 |
| betabug | there are no portlets in zope | 10:13 |
| jakke | yes and no | 10:13 |
| jakke | I don't think it's purely portlets related | 10:13 |
| jakke | as far as I can tell now, it seems to be related to the ZPublisher | 10:14 |
| betabug | there is also no portal id, so I don't know what you mean with "fails to resolve the portal id" | 10:14 |
| betabug | thinking of it, dunno what your document_view is either | 10:14 |
| jakke | ok ok, point made :D | 10:15 |
| jakke | I'm in zope code, hence I popped the question here first :) | 10:15 |
| betabug | if you suspect it's a zope problem, you'd need to find a test case without all the plone stuff | 10:16 |
| jakke | btw betabug, do you ever sleep, or do you happen to be in the european timezone? | 10:16 |
| betabug | OTOH, #plone is probably a lot more active than #zope | 10:16 |
| jakke | that's my main problem, I haven't found a way to reproduce the problem | 10:16 |
| betabug | I'm in europe | 10:16 |
| jakke | makes sense now :) | 10:18 |
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| regebro | Ping J1m_ ! Just wanted to see if you saw my email on Buildout and sudo/setuid per part? | 14:11 |
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| J1m_ | regebro, I saw your email and your tweet. I'm sorry I haven't had time to respond. | 16:43 |
| J1m_ | I've been traveling a lot the last few days. | 16:43 |
| regebro | J1m_: No hurry, I just wanted to make sure you saw it. Take your time. | 16:43 |
| J1m_ | we run buildout as root all the time. | 16:43 |
| J1m_ | but we launch it from higher-level processes that run as root, so no need for setuid. | 16:44 |
| J1m_ | we also split our buildouts into "build" and "deploy" configurations. | 16:44 |
| J1m_ | This is what we run it from: https://bitbucket.org/zc/zkdeployment | 16:45 |
| J1m_ | Sadly, I made the mistake of tying this too closely to our monitoring framework so it's not reusable. I'm working on fixing this, but ... | 16:46 |
| J1m_ | and then there's Docker... | 16:46 |
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| mcdonc | i'm struggling with using ansible myself.. afaict from lurking in #ansible there's some sort of belief that you can just run the same playbook against an already-provisioned host and you can write the playbook in such a way that it always does the right thing.. pretty sure this is just wishful thinking | 17:05 |
| J1m_ | heh | 17:11 |
| J1m_ | mcdonc, I'm really pretty happy with zkdeployment. | 17:11 |
| mcdonc | yeah, i like the writeup | 17:11 |
| J1m_ | It let's us have a very high-level model of our systems. | 17:11 |
| J1m_ | docker could make it a lot simpler. | 17:11 |
| J1m_ | at least the deployment parts. | 17:12 |
| J1m_ | we're already using it to deploy a few docker containers. | 17:12 |
| mcdonc | would you just build the containers locally and push them out? | 17:12 |
| J1m_ | I'd build images locally, push them to a private repo (S3 backed) and zkdeployment to deploy containers from them. | 17:13 |
| J1m_ | Ideally, the images would be used for CI. We're only using docker for some semi-legacy FTP servers for now. | 17:14 |
| mcdonc | seems to make sense; that way you always "provision", you never really "configuration manage" | 17:16 |
| mcdonc | every creation of a container is a new provisioning | 17:16 |
| J1m_ | yeah, although if you use docker as intended, there's still a bit of wireing in production. | 17:16 |
| J1m_ | although we use ZooKeeper to do most of that. | 17:17 |
| mcdonc | there's still the problem of managing the system that contains all the state (a database) where you cant throw it out and start over cuz its got data | 17:18 |
| mcdonc | where "problem" == need to update-in-place i think | 17:19 |
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| J1m_ | A container can use data outside itself. | 17:20 |
| J1m_ | so, four or ftp servers and svn.zope.org, the data are mounted into the container from the host. | 17:21 |
| J1m_ | We can replace the software by installing a new image without affecting the data. | 17:21 |
| mcdonc | right | 17:21 |
| J1m_ | The data are on ebs volumes, so we can replace the AWS instances as well without losing data. | 17:21 |
| mcdonc | so i guess you could mount an ebs volume to do same for e.g. postgres or zodb data? i've never used aws. | 17:22 |
| J1m_ | yes | 17:22 |
| mcdonc | pretty fly | 17:23 |
| J1m_ | Now the "standard" ebs volumes are SSDs. | 17:25 |
| regebro | J1m_: The whole setuid question is prompted by me trying to install a Openstack development environment and failing. | 17:25 |
| J1m_ | why do you need root in development? | 17:26 |
| regebro | To solve my actual problem, docker may be an option. | 17:26 |
| regebro | J1m_: To install system packages. | 17:26 |
| regebro | See also http://regebro.wordpress.com/2014/09/17/a-script-is-not-configuration/ | 17:26 |
| regebro | System packages also, and annoyingly need to be installed remotely on the open stack servers, but I doubt buildout would be the solution to that. | 17:27 |
| regebro | J1m_: In any case, this is on a rather theoretical level at the moment. | 17:27 |
| regebro | J1m_: One solution that does not add the feature but to add some sort of hooks for an extension between the steps. | 17:29 |
| J1m_ | Buildout shouldn't call itself a build system. | 17:30 |
| regebro | But if you don't want that, then I'll just skip it. I'm not 100% sure I'm going to end up using it anyway, so it would definitely be in a branch until I end up actually using it. :-) | 17:30 |
| J1m_ | I never call it that. | 17:30 |
| J1m_ | I call it an assembly system :) But no one ever understand that. :) | 17:31 |
| regebro | J1m_: Good, yeah, I think that's wrong too. | 17:31 |
| J1m_ | I don't have time to read your blog post atm. But I will later. Looks interesting. | 17:32 |
| regebro | The buildout website needs some love, that's for sure. But I don't see any free time for me this year. | 17:32 |
| regebro | Sure, no pb. | 17:32 |
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| mcdonc | my main problem right now is trying to convince other team members that update-in-place is nondeterministic | 17:37 |
| mcdonc | not a problem i can solve with tools, unfortunately | 17:37 |
| J1m_ | mcdonc, at least buildout makes update in place fairly sane. | 17:37 |
| J1m_ | because buildout cleans up after itself. | 17:38 |
| mcdonc | yeah; we actually use it (driven by ansible) | 17:38 |
| mcdonc | its all the nonbuildout things that are problematic | 17:38 |
| J1m_ | It's crazy how many established configuration systems don't do that. | 17:38 |
| J1m_ | I'm fairly convinced that most system management culture was established when managing minicomputers for scientists. | 17:40 |
| mcdonc | they can but the temptation to just write "cp /srcstuff /deststuff" or other things that dont take existing state into account is strong | 17:40 |
| mcdonc | you saw stuff like this at usgs? | 17:40 |
| J1m_ | I see this today when I talk to systems people or study system management tools. | 17:42 |
| J1m_ | for example the common notion of convergence of system configuration makes no sense when deploying services automatically. | 17:42 |
| J1m_ | It might make sense as part of a process of finely hand crafting machines. | 17:43 |
| mcdonc | afaict the allure of fabric/ansible/salt is that people believe they understand how to create imperative things and that they can understand them after they're created, but its much harder to think about creating something entirely declarative (which is why C/python/ruby is more popular than haskell, i guess) | 17:43 |
| J1m_ | And I have sympathy for that PoV if you run the configuration once. | 17:44 |
| mcdonc | they'll write cp /foo /bar instead of creating a recipe that makes sure foostuff-is-in-par | 17:44 |
| mcdonc | bar | 17:44 |
| J1m_ | The real power of recipies is that they know how to uninstall. | 17:46 |
| J1m_ | Otherwise it's just a matter of abstraction. | 17:47 |
| mcdonc | yeah.. and the logic to drive whether something should install or uninstall-them-install is put into a nice little box | 17:47 |
| J1m_ | If you didn't use something like buildout, you'd want to at least have a library with functions for common tasks. | 17:47 |
| mcdonc | and all the conditionals are driven up there | 17:47 |
| mcdonc | i dont have much faith that a random team could create something that updates in place properly tho... the business pressures are such that taking 2 hrs to create the recipe that does that would be considered a waste of time | 17:50 |
| mcdonc | which is why i think that the only hope for j. random team is to always rebuild | 17:50 |
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| regebro | The uninstall part of having something declarative is something I didn't even mention in my blog post. :-P | 20:03 |
| * regebro waves | 20:03 | |
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