IRC log of #zope3-dev for Monday, 2005-02-21

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tirkalNo suitable Python version found. You should install12:00
tirkalPython version 2.3.4 before continuing. Versions12:00
tirkal2.3.4 also work, but not as optimally.12:00
tirkaloops, sorry :)12:00
tirkalI meant to ask about using Zope3 with 2.412:00
tirkalI'm running a Debian server, with only 2.4 installed, and the 3.0.0 configure won't allow me to install zope12:01
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philiKONmgedmin, can X3 be run with python 2.4?12:03
mgedminphiliKON, I never tried12:05
mgedminbut I think it can12:05
mgedminbut then I heard some tests were failing on 2.412:05
mgedminso, I don't know12:06
tirkal<rejj>Two tests fail under 2.412:06
tirkalis it really significant?12:06
tirkalphiliKON: thanks12:07
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tirkalI'll just try to install from SVN :)12:09
philiKONtirkal, it really depends on what you want to do12:12
philiKONthe trunk isn't a good source if you're lookiing for stability12:12
philiKONstability as in API stability12:12
tirkalphiliKON: I'm not, not really :)12:12
tirkalI just want to check Zope out12:13
philiKONthen use the trunk by all means, it's much much nicer than X3.012:13
tirkalI'm considering several alternatives for my next CMS project12:13
tirkalconsidering PEAK, Nevow, Zope3, and (don't tell anyone!) RubyRails12:13
philiKONi saw ruby raiils once12:15
philiKONtheir templating language, does it leave XHTML templates intact?12:16
tirkalphiliKON: I haven't looked at it in depth as yet12:16
philiKONthe problem with most templating system is that you end up with some non-XML-comformant <? or <% markers iin them12:16
tirkalNevow's templating system is fully XHTML compliant12:16
tirkalin fact Nevow is great all around, I just think it might be a bit of an overkill for relatively standard CMS projects12:17
philiKONnever looked closely at nevow12:18
philiKONjust heard the name actually12:18
mgedminI recently read nevow's docs at
mgedminI like nevow's templating language -- I sometimes miss the ability to manipulate dom nodes in python code with zpt12:20
mgedminhowever I haven't actually tried to use it yet12:21
* philiKON is seeing some examples now... likes the looks of it12:22
philiKONof course, like twisted, it wants you to subclass12:22
* tirkal nods12:23
philiKONhmm, their TypedInterface thing looks familiar, but i doubt it's used the way it's used in z312:24
philiKONit seems to use twisted, i wonder how far along twisted is with integrating zope.comopnent/zope.interface12:26
tirkalphiliKON: pretty much all the way :)12:26
tirkalthe next version of Twisted (2.0, already in PR) is going to use zope.interface12:26
philiKONvery cool12:26
tirkalyour'e already encouraged to use it exclusively if your'e an active developer12:27
tirkalyeah, zope.interface rocks :)12:27
tirkalwish it became standard12:27
philiKONzope.schema needs to be merged with zope.interface12:27
philiKONtirkal, does twisted also use zope.component?12:28
tirkalphiliKON: not sure about that12:28
tirkalI haven't been using Twisted for that long12:28
tirkalit's just the first framework I've checked so far of the 4 I mentioned earlier12:29
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rejjtirkal: those tests no longer fail13:04
tirkalrejj: thanks13:04
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rejjJ1m, could you possbily recommend some piece of work that needs to be / should be done that isn't particularly urgent and would be appropriate for someone attempting to familiarise themself with z3?13:54
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rejjI'd like to help out, but presently z3 seems very large and complex13:55
rejjand I'm not really sure what needs to be done or where to dive in13:55
J1mrejj, k, let me give that some thought.14:01
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J1msrichter, ayt?17:30
srichterJ1m: yeah17:30
J1mI was going to ask you a question about site.txt, but I think I answered it for myself.17:31
J1mThat txt file is very helpful.17:31
J1mI wish I'd discovered it sooner. :)17:31
J1mYou do:17:32
J1m  >>> default['myutil'] = MyUtility('My custom utility')17:32
J1m  >>> myutil = default['myutil']17:32
J1mThis is a bit mysterious.17:32
J1mIt could be simpler today.17:32
srichterI am not sure this is needed17:32
srichterI think this used to be there to ensure I got a located utility17:33
J1mWE have this pattern of getting an object back from a container after adding it to make sure we have __parent__.17:33
srichterok, feel free to change it17:33
J1mNow, today this isn't necessary, because of the ILocalUtility burnt offering authors must offer.17:34
J1mBut, if I get my way, and we remove the ILocalUtility requirement, then this will be necessary, as a utility won't have to be an iLocation.17:35
srichterwhich will break a bit of code17:36
J1mAlso, note that your MyUtility is broken, because it doesn't have __name__ and __parent__ attrs.17:36
J1mwhat code would it break?17:36
srichterbecause we expect a utility to find its registration manager at several places (nothing essential though)17:36
J1mWhere to we expect a utility to find it's RM?17:37
srichterregistrations.html view17:37
srichterand IRegistered Adapter17:37
J1mBut there it is the view that has to find it.17:37
J1mand the view will get a ContainedProxy17:37
srichteroh, ok17:38
J1mThe utility itself doesn't need __parent__ unless it delegates to higher utilities.17:38
J1mIn that case, it certainly needs to play with ILocation.17:38
J1mOK, for now, I'll just clean up site.txt a little bit.17:39
J1mI may add a simplified registration api and add a test to it there.17:39
J1mI may add a simplified registration api and add a test for it there.17:40
srichteryeah, I think it is needed (simplified API)17:41
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Theunihmm. looks like i'm getting a private walkthrough of zodb on pycon ;)17:42
J1mThanks for signing up for the sprint17:42
J1mBTW, are you going to stop bt F12g while you're in the US?17:43
J1mBTW, are you going to stop by F12g while you're in the US?17:45
Theunii'm not sure there's time for that17:46
Theunii'll be there on the first day of the sprint to the last day of pycon17:46
Theunii thought they follow immediately17:46
Theuniotherwise i'm free to go wherever i want (well ... under those visa regulations ;) )17:46
Theuni... :)17:46
philiKONTheuni, visa regulations?17:46
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regebroHi all! Can I use widgets outside schemas, and in that case, how?19:05
srichteryes, so it is a bit tedious19:05
srichterits all in
srichterI think the interesting functions are in utilities19:06
srichterthough one of the tasks for 3.1 was to create a generic form directive19:06
regebroAh. Well, I'm on 3.0.0 anyhow...19:07
regebroI'm in need of the javascript widgets I made for date.selection, but this is for a page that is not editing anything, so...19:07
philiKONregebro, basically, you have a schema field, you bind it to the object and then you get the multiview (=widget) for it19:07
regebroI'll take a look on those utilities. didn't really tell me much.19:07
philiKONsome of the utlities in can help you19:08
regebroEh, no I don't have a schema field. ;)19:08
philiKONwell, you're gonna need one19:08
philiKONeven if it's just a dummy one19:08
philiKONno widget without a field...19:08
philiKONwidgets are views for fields19:09
regebroOK. Then what I end up with are making widgets for the parts that I don't a widget for now, then...19:09
regebroIt makes sense, of course, but is more work than I hoped for. Ah well.19:09
regebroOr, maybe not...19:10
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regebroYeah, thanks, srichter, philiKON, doing it that way is probably much easier.19:32
regebroNow, I made a new interface for that form, and of course, the object does not really implement that interface...19:32
philiKONregebro, i never said you have to have an interface19:33
regebroWhich gives me a free adapter, basically. Any ideas on what to use that adapter for? It feels silly having an empty dummy adapter that does nothing...19:33
philiKONyou can have schema fields without being in an interface19:33
regebroYeah, but making an interface was easier... :)19:33
philiKONok :)19:33
regebro(at elast so far)19:33
philiKONwell, the adapter gets the returning value set on itself as an attribute19:34
philiKONit should do whatever you want to do with that value19:34
regebroThat's an interesting point. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks.19:35
philiKONbasically, the edit form does this:19:35
philiKONadapted = ISchemaThatWasUsedForTheForm(obj)19:35
philiKONsetattr(obj, field_name, value_from_widget)19:35
philiKONsetattr(adapted, field_name, value_from_widget)19:35
philiKONmost of the time, adapted and obj are the same19:36
philiKONunless obj doesn't provide ISchemaThatWasUsedForTheForm19:36
regebroYeah. I could then create an object that does the mangling on the data it got, and display the result, or something.19:37
regebroInteresting. Very different from Zope2. :)19:37
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J1mcreateObject was never changed to not require a context.19:53
philiKONno, it wasn't. also, the fact that it takes arbitrary keyword arguments but the other positional argument is 'name' (factory name), you might get conflicts if one of your arbitrary kwd args happens to be 'name'19:55
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J1mYeah, I was never in favor of it accepting extra arguments.19:56
philiKONwell, factories take these args19:56
J1mThey shouldn't, imo19:56
philiKONso, you're saying that factories shouldn't take extra args?19:56
philiKONoh, ok19:56
philiKONhmm, ok19:56
J1mThis function also doesn't have a test19:57
J1mI guess the canonical way to create objects via a factory is:20:00
J1mfactory = component.getUtility(IFactory, name)20:00
J1m(and you can pass args if you want)20:00
philiKONhere's one idea:20:01
philiKONwe deprecate createObject20:01
philiKONand introduce a new function, callFactory, that does the above20:01
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mgedminI have a function that prints a help message to stdout and does sys.exit(0)20:28
mgedminI am unable to write a doctest for it20:28
mgedminit seems that doctests can either check for an exception, or for output -- but not both :(20:28
philiKONthat sucks20:31
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mgedmin    help()20:33
mgedminexcept SystemExit, e:20:33
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mgedmin    print "[exited with status %d]" % e20:33
mgedminis a solution20:33
philiKONi just tried it myself, you're right20:35
philiKONat least with python 2.3.4's doctest20:35
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regebroHi! Does anybody have a link to some example of using vocabularies?20:51
regebroIn particular, (I think) I need vocabularies computed on the fly.20:51
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DamascenephiliKON:  hey there, is it true your book will be strictly paper format without an online version?21:08
Damasceneah okay.  not released yet eh?  i guess probably in march 2005?21:08
philiKONyes, publishers says in 2-3 weeks21:09
Damascenewell i hopeit's in the local bookstore in that time too heh.  or i might have to specially request it or something and waityet another 1-2 weeks.21:09
philiKONmaybe you can preorder it through your bookstore today21:10
Damasceneah, well i'd probably peruse it first at the book store.  i'm still wondering if i'm ready for zope 3 or not heh.21:11
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jdz_philiKON: What book? :)21:11
philiKONi wrote a z3 book21:12
jdz_ah!  awsome :)21:12
jdz_I'm very excited about z3 books, let me check this out21:13
DamascenephiliKON:  is it okay for me to still ask you questions or should i wait for the book?  ;)21:13
philiKONhehe. well you can ask questions but at some point i might say "just buy my book!" :)21:14
jdz_very cool man!  I'm defiantly going to get this :)21:15
philiKONseriously, i like helping out where i can, which is the main reason i wrote the book.. but i also gotta live, you know ;)21:15
jdz_awsome work :)21:15
Damasceneis built with 5 content objects or just one generic one with a lot of views?21:15 is one simple content object21:16
philiKONand a custom skin21:16
Damascenethe content object is a place holder i presume?21:16
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philiKONwhat do you mean by place holder?21:16
Damascenei mean i tried to do something like that, and i alwasy ended up havign to make some dummy placeholder object called "index.html".21:16
Damasceneand then my subviews were "index.html/products" or something.21:17
philiKONahm, sorry21:17
philiKONnow i get what you mean21:17
Damascenesory i'm not sure what the right terminology is either21:17
philiKONno, every page is its own instance of a content component21:17
philiKONyour teminology was right21:17
philiKONi got it wrong21:17
philiKONthere are indeed 5 content objects21:17
philiKONbut they are instances of the same content component, a simple Page21:18
philiKONthe skin only determines the layout of the site21:18
Damasceneso teh bulk of your content is actually in zodb itself, it's not in the .pt files.21:18
Damasceneer the tal template files that is.21:18
philiKONof course21:18
philiKONzpts are not supposed to hold content21:18
Damascenei guess i was always afraid of doing that...21:18
philiKONthey're supposed to present the content21:18
philiKONcontent is, of course, held by content objects (in the zodb, sql, whatever) :)21:19
Damasceneright, i like trying to hold it in perhaps sql.21:19
Damascenebut then it becomes confusing... in my case would it be really 5 content objects ... or one content object with lots of views with parameters to access the sql backend?21:19
philiKONwell, you'll have to identify what an a content comonent is in your application21:20
Damascenei guess i feel more comfortable with files or sql based storage systems.21:20
philiKONwell, to be honest, there's nothing easier than writing ZODB storage :)21:20
Damascenei wanted to start really really simple.  a pretty simple website.21:20
philiKONwell, writing ZODB-storage-based content components21:20
jdz_Damascene: I did too for a long time, but you learn to LOVE the zodb ;)21:20
Damasceneyou are right.  if i just succumbed to the zodb system i think i'd have it working far faster.  ;)21:21
philiKONi seriously doubt that21:21
Damascenei guess i like being able to dump it into ascii if i had to.  i looked into the filesyncing stuff, but it somewhat scared me a bit.  maybe i should reinvestigate it.21:21
DamascenephiliKON:  sorry, what did you doubt?  (not sure what you were referring to?)21:21
philiKONi doubt that sql would be faster21:22
philiKONit simply depends on what you want to do21:22
philiKONwhat your kind of data is21:22
Damasceneoh i didn't say sql was going to be faster.21:22
philiKONthe zodb is just very different from sql21:22
philiKONthe zodb is great at managing objects, and objects is what zope is about21:22
Damascenei said if i succumbed to the zodb (as in gave up trying to hook it from sql and just used zodb) i would have my system working far faster (i'd be done by now)21:22
philiKONsql is great at managing large amounts of data and doing stuff with it (counting, aggregating, joining, etc.)21:22
philiKONi agree with you then21:23
Damascenehmm but youa re right.  i'm not going to require to do a lot of joining in THIS particualr case.21:23
Damascenein fact, i wont' be doing any of that now that i think about it.21:23
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philiKONyou just have to realize that these two systems are good at different things21:23
philiKONand, again, writing zodb-persistent objects is a walk in the park21:23
Damascenei realize that, but ultimately i just want to be able to safely dump the zodb files out and edit it by hand if i have to?21:24
Damascenei think i can do that with the new zofsync features.  i'll check again21:24
Damascenesorry whatever taht new filesyncing thing is21:25
philiKONwell, we kinda gave up on filesyncing21:25
philiKONwe just have filerepresentation21:25
philiKONwhich means objects can present themselves as either files or directories21:25
philiKONFTP / WebDAV views use that21:25
philiKONyeah, zsync is R.I.P. until (maybe) revived21:26
Damasceneokay well i'm a fruity guy.  i use vim to edit content.21:26
Damasceneis there some way i can edit content from say vim on the file system and have it... boom into the zodb like that?21:26
philiKONftp, webdav, xmlrpc, whatever you want21:26
philiKONfor the two former you'll just have to write filerepresentation adapters21:26
philiKONfor the latter you'll have to write xmlrpc views and of course some kinda client that loads it up21:26
Damascenewell this is why i kind of like just using sql as the backend.  :)21:26
Damasceneor i could use zodb and do it via the web interface.21:27
mgedminphiliKON, is webdav already fully implemented in zope 3?21:27
philiKONmgedmin, no :(21:27
philiKONmgedmin, but PUT is, and that's all he needs :)21:27
philiKONftp works21:27
philiKONDamascene, i don't see how using sql as the backend is improving here, you'd have to upload to the sql server too21:28
philiKONDamascene, with FTP/WebDAV you get at least the ability to mount stuff to the filesystem or have your editor open and save directly from/to FTP/WebDAV21:28
DamascenephiliKON:  yeah but i'm really familar with that.  i can ssh in, update, edit, the sql server.  i can easily write a little frontend for it (it's easier for me).21:28
DamascenephiliKON:  i guess the sql element isn't as strong if it's strictly content though (thinking it over)21:28
philiKONwell, i'm sorta missing the web application in that 'i ssh to the server, use vim and other freakish unixy stuff' :)21:29
DamascenephiliKON:  and im' using ssh+vim (or ssh + sql cli) so the ftp element feature is nice but not something i can use via vim.21:29
Damascenei suppose i'd be unhappy if i lost my versioning capabilities if i relied on the TTW for ZODB.21:30
Damasceneand i suppose a db doesn't help me there either.  :(  (versioning would be somewhat an issue again).21:30
philiKONthe zodb supports simple versioning21:31
philiKONyou can undo stuff, for example21:31
Damascenealthough i could probably put in a change log for postgrseql via triggering easily enough.21:31
philiKONthere's an extra product from ZC that lets you do more versioning stuff21:31
Damascenehm.  so i should probably use FTP or the webinterface, eh?  :)21:31
philiKONwell, the problem i have with this discussion is that you're mangling the discussion about the storage with a discussion about what editing interface you want21:32
philiKONfor me those are two totally different topics21:32
philiKONthe point is that z3 gives you the choice to choose on both ends21:33
Damasceneignore the editing interface element.  i can always go in through the web and copy and paste from text files i suppose.21:33
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Damascenethings like the navigation... i considered usign menuItems but realized that's a huge pita if i wanted to change things on the fly.  i suppose i could make it query the zodb to find the list of content objects of a certain type in a certain folder inside zodb.21:38
philiKONmenus are just one way of doing it21:40
philiKONin 3.1, menus are actually just special adapters21:40
philiKONwhich demonstrates that they're nothing special21:40
philiKONyou can use that pattern but you don't have to21:40
Damascenedoes your book cover mostly 3.0 or some 3.1 elemetns as well?21:41
philiKONit covers only 3.021:41
Damascenei think then for content, i'd probably have 'titles' and 'list of subtitles' then 'article content' and maybe another 'title'.  i guses it's easier to just say each content object has "content" and i writ eit up using rest or true html, etc?21:42 uses reST for content21:43
philiKONDamascene, i plan to release the code for, you can take a look at it then21:43
Damasceneso for your About page, at best you might pull out the 'title' from the content object, but then it's all from 'rest content'?21:43
philiKONi actually have an IObjectModifiedEvent subscriber that updated the dublincore metadata after every editing of the page21:44
philiKONit gets the title of the page for the DC.Title and the first paragraph for DC.Description21:45
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