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| tirkal | No suitable Python version found. You should install | 12:00 |
|---|---|---|
| tirkal | Python version 2.3.4 before continuing. Versions | 12:00 |
| tirkal | 2.3.4 also work, but not as optimally. | 12:00 |
| tirkal | oops, sorry :) | 12:00 |
| tirkal | I meant to ask about using Zope3 with 2.4 | 12:00 |
| tirkal | I'm running a Debian server, with only 2.4 installed, and the 3.0.0 configure won't allow me to install zope | 12:01 |
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| philiKON | mgedmin, can X3 be run with python 2.4? | 12:03 |
| mgedmin | philiKON, I never tried | 12:05 |
| mgedmin | but I think it can | 12:05 |
| mgedmin | but then I heard some tests were failing on 2.4 | 12:05 |
| mgedmin | so, I don't know | 12:06 |
| mgedmin | ;) | 12:06 |
| tirkal | <rejj>Two tests fail under 2.4 | 12:06 |
| tirkal | http://zope3.pov.lt/irclogs/%23zope3-dev.2005-02-19.log.html | 12:06 |
| tirkal | is it really significant? | 12:06 |
| tirkal | philiKON: thanks | 12:07 |
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| tirkal | I'll just try to install from SVN :) | 12:09 |
| philiKON | tirkal, it really depends on what you want to do | 12:12 |
| philiKON | the trunk isn't a good source if you're lookiing for stability | 12:12 |
| philiKON | stability as in API stability | 12:12 |
| tirkal | philiKON: I'm not, not really :) | 12:12 |
| philiKON | ok | 12:12 |
| tirkal | I just want to check Zope out | 12:13 |
| philiKON | then use the trunk by all means, it's much much nicer than X3.0 | 12:13 |
| tirkal | I'm considering several alternatives for my next CMS project | 12:13 |
| philiKON | ic | 12:13 |
| tirkal | considering PEAK, Nevow, Zope3, and (don't tell anyone!) RubyRails | 12:13 |
| philiKON | i saw ruby raiils once | 12:15 |
| philiKON | their templating language, does it leave XHTML templates intact? | 12:16 |
| tirkal | philiKON: I haven't looked at it in depth as yet | 12:16 |
| philiKON | the problem with most templating system is that you end up with some non-XML-comformant <? or <% markers iin them | 12:16 |
| tirkal | Nevow's templating system is fully XHTML compliant | 12:16 |
| tirkal | in fact Nevow is great all around, I just think it might be a bit of an overkill for relatively standard CMS projects | 12:17 |
| philiKON | never looked closely at nevow | 12:18 |
| philiKON | just heard the name actually | 12:18 |
| mgedmin | I recently read nevow's docs at http://srid.bsdnerds.org/blog/2005/02/17/nevow-html-documentation-from-svn/ | 12:20 |
| mgedmin | I like nevow's templating language -- I sometimes miss the ability to manipulate dom nodes in python code with zpt | 12:20 |
| mgedmin | however I haven't actually tried to use it yet | 12:21 |
| * philiKON is seeing some examples now... likes the looks of it | 12:22 | |
| philiKON | of course, like twisted, it wants you to subclass | 12:22 |
| * tirkal nods | 12:23 | |
| philiKON | hmm, their TypedInterface thing looks familiar, but i doubt it's used the way it's used in z3 | 12:24 |
| philiKON | it seems to use twisted, i wonder how far along twisted is with integrating zope.comopnent/zope.interface | 12:26 |
| tirkal | philiKON: pretty much all the way :) | 12:26 |
| tirkal | the next version of Twisted (2.0, already in PR) is going to use zope.interface | 12:26 |
| philiKON | very cool | 12:26 |
| tirkal | your'e already encouraged to use it exclusively if your'e an active developer | 12:27 |
| tirkal | yeah, zope.interface rocks :) | 12:27 |
| tirkal | wish it became standard | 12:27 |
| philiKON | zope.schema needs to be merged with zope.interface | 12:27 |
| philiKON | tirkal, does twisted also use zope.component? | 12:28 |
| tirkal | philiKON: not sure about that | 12:28 |
| tirkal | I haven't been using Twisted for that long | 12:28 |
| tirkal | it's just the first framework I've checked so far of the 4 I mentioned earlier | 12:29 |
| philiKON | ok | 12:29 |
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| rejj | tirkal: those tests no longer fail | 13:04 |
| tirkal | rejj: thanks | 13:04 |
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| rejj | J1m, could you possbily recommend some piece of work that needs to be / should be done that isn't particularly urgent and would be appropriate for someone attempting to familiarise themself with z3? | 13:54 |
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| rejj | I'd like to help out, but presently z3 seems very large and complex | 13:55 |
| rejj | and I'm not really sure what needs to be done or where to dive in | 13:55 |
| J1m | rejj, k, let me give that some thought. | 14:01 |
| rejj | sure | 14:01 |
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| J1m | srichter, ayt? | 17:30 |
| srichter | J1m: yeah | 17:30 |
| J1m | I was going to ask you a question about site.txt, but I think I answered it for myself. | 17:31 |
| J1m | That txt file is very helpful. | 17:31 |
| J1m | I wish I'd discovered it sooner. :) | 17:31 |
| srichter | cool | 17:31 |
| srichter | :-) | 17:31 |
| J1m | You do: | 17:32 |
| J1m | >>> default['myutil'] = MyUtility('My custom utility') | 17:32 |
| J1m | >>> myutil = default['myutil'] | 17:32 |
| J1m | This is a bit mysterious. | 17:32 |
| srichter | true | 17:32 |
| J1m | It could be simpler today. | 17:32 |
| srichter | I am not sure this is needed | 17:32 |
| srichter | I think this used to be there to ensure I got a located utility | 17:33 |
| J1m | WE have this pattern of getting an object back from a container after adding it to make sure we have __parent__. | 17:33 |
| J1m | right | 17:33 |
| srichter | ok, feel free to change it | 17:33 |
| J1m | Now, today this isn't necessary, because of the ILocalUtility burnt offering authors must offer. | 17:34 |
| srichter | yep | 17:34 |
| J1m | But, if I get my way, and we remove the ILocalUtility requirement, then this will be necessary, as a utility won't have to be an iLocation. | 17:35 |
| srichter | which will break a bit of code | 17:36 |
| J1m | Also, note that your MyUtility is broken, because it doesn't have __name__ and __parent__ attrs. | 17:36 |
| J1m | what code would it break? | 17:36 |
| srichter | because we expect a utility to find its registration manager at several places (nothing essential though) | 17:36 |
| J1m | Where to we expect a utility to find it's RM? | 17:37 |
| srichter | registrations.html view | 17:37 |
| srichter | and IRegistered Adapter | 17:37 |
| J1m | But there it is the view that has to find it. | 17:37 |
| srichter | sure | 17:37 |
| J1m | and the view will get a ContainedProxy | 17:37 |
| srichter | oh, ok | 17:38 |
| J1m | The utility itself doesn't need __parent__ unless it delegates to higher utilities. | 17:38 |
| J1m | In that case, it certainly needs to play with ILocation. | 17:38 |
| srichter | true | 17:38 |
| J1m | OK, for now, I'll just clean up site.txt a little bit. | 17:39 |
| srichter | ok | 17:39 |
| J1m | I may add a simplified registration api and add a test to it there. | 17:39 |
| J1m | I may add a simplified registration api and add a test for it there. | 17:40 |
| srichter | yeah, I think it is needed (simplified API) | 17:41 |
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| Theuni | hmm. looks like i'm getting a private walkthrough of zodb on pycon ;) | 17:42 |
| J1m | yup | 17:42 |
| J1m | Thanks for signing up for the sprint | 17:42 |
| J1m | BTW, are you going to stop bt F12g while you're in the US? | 17:43 |
| J1m | BTW, are you going to stop by F12g while you're in the US? | 17:45 |
| Theuni | i'm not sure there's time for that | 17:46 |
| Theuni | i'll be there on the first day of the sprint to the last day of pycon | 17:46 |
| Theuni | i thought they follow immediately | 17:46 |
| Theuni | otherwise i'm free to go wherever i want (well ... under those visa regulations ;) ) | 17:46 |
| Theuni | ... :) | 17:46 |
| philiKON | Theuni, visa regulations? | 17:46 |
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| regebro | Hi all! Can I use widgets outside schemas, and in that case, how? | 19:05 |
| srichter | yes, so it is a bit tedious | 19:05 |
| srichter | its all in zope.app.form | 19:06 |
| srichter | I think the interesting functions are in utilities | 19:06 |
| srichter | though one of the tasks for 3.1 was to create a generic form directive | 19:06 |
| regebro | Ah. Well, I'm on 3.0.0 anyhow... | 19:07 |
| regebro | I'm in need of the javascript widgets I made for date.selection, but this is for a page that is not editing anything, so... | 19:07 |
| philiKON | regebro, basically, you have a schema field, you bind it to the object and then you get the multiview (=widget) for it | 19:07 |
| regebro | I'll take a look on those utilities. zope.app.form didn't really tell me much. | 19:07 |
| philiKON | some of the utlities in zope.app.form.utility can help you | 19:08 |
| regebro | Eh, no I don't have a schema field. ;) | 19:08 |
| philiKON | well, you're gonna need one | 19:08 |
| philiKON | even if it's just a dummy one | 19:08 |
| philiKON | no widget without a field... | 19:08 |
| philiKON | widgets are views for fields | 19:09 |
| regebro | OK. Then what I end up with are making widgets for the parts that I don't a widget for now, then... | 19:09 |
| regebro | It makes sense, of course, but is more work than I hoped for. Ah well. | 19:09 |
| regebro | Or, maybe not... | 19:10 |
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| regebro | Yeah, thanks, srichter, philiKON, doing it that way is probably much easier. | 19:32 |
| regebro | Now, I made a new interface for that form, and of course, the object does not really implement that interface... | 19:32 |
| philiKON | regebro, i never said you have to have an interface | 19:33 |
| regebro | Which gives me a free adapter, basically. Any ideas on what to use that adapter for? It feels silly having an empty dummy adapter that does nothing... | 19:33 |
| philiKON | you can have schema fields without being in an interface | 19:33 |
| regebro | Yeah, but making an interface was easier... :) | 19:33 |
| philiKON | ok :) | 19:33 |
| regebro | (at elast so far) | 19:33 |
| philiKON | well, the adapter gets the returning value set on itself as an attribute | 19:34 |
| philiKON | it should do whatever you want to do with that value | 19:34 |
| regebro | That's an interesting point. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks. | 19:35 |
| philiKON | basically, the edit form does this: | 19:35 |
| philiKON | adapted = ISchemaThatWasUsedForTheForm(obj) | 19:35 |
| philiKON | setattr(obj, field_name, value_from_widget) | 19:35 |
| philiKON | err | 19:35 |
| philiKON | setattr(adapted, field_name, value_from_widget) | 19:35 |
| philiKON | most of the time, adapted and obj are the same | 19:36 |
| philiKON | unless obj doesn't provide ISchemaThatWasUsedForTheForm | 19:36 |
| regebro | Yeah. I could then create an object that does the mangling on the data it got, and display the result, or something. | 19:37 |
| regebro | Interesting. Very different from Zope2. :) | 19:37 |
| philiKON | yes | 19:37 |
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| J1m | Crap | 19:52 |
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| J1m | createObject was never changed to not require a context. | 19:53 |
| J1m | Waaaaa. | 19:53 |
| philiKON | no, it wasn't. also, the fact that it takes arbitrary keyword arguments but the other positional argument is 'name' (factory name), you might get conflicts if one of your arbitrary kwd args happens to be 'name' | 19:55 |
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| J1m | Yeah, I was never in favor of it accepting extra arguments. | 19:56 |
| philiKON | well, factories take these args | 19:56 |
| J1m | They shouldn't, imo | 19:56 |
| philiKON | so, you're saying that factories shouldn't take extra args? | 19:56 |
| philiKON | oh, ok | 19:56 |
| philiKON | hmm, ok | 19:56 |
| J1m | This function also doesn't have a test | 19:57 |
| J1m | sigh | 19:57 |
| philiKON | shrug | 19:57 |
| J1m | I guess the canonical way to create objects via a factory is: | 20:00 |
| J1m | factory = component.getUtility(IFactory, name) | 20:00 |
| J1m | factory() | 20:00 |
| J1m | (and you can pass args if you want) | 20:00 |
| philiKON | here's one idea: | 20:01 |
| philiKON | we deprecate createObject | 20:01 |
| philiKON | and introduce a new function, callFactory, that does the above | 20:01 |
| J1m | yup | 20:01 |
| J1m | later | 20:04 |
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| mgedmin | I have a function that prints a help message to stdout and does sys.exit(0) | 20:28 |
| mgedmin | I am unable to write a doctest for it | 20:28 |
| mgedmin | it seems that doctests can either check for an exception, or for output -- but not both :( | 20:28 |
| philiKON | that sucks | 20:31 |
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| mgedmin | try: | 20:33 |
| mgedmin | help() | 20:33 |
| mgedmin | except SystemExit, e: | 20:33 |
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| mgedmin | print "[exited with status %d]" % e | 20:33 |
| mgedmin | is a solution | 20:33 |
| philiKON | i just tried it myself, you're right | 20:35 |
| philiKON | at least with python 2.3.4's doctest | 20:35 |
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| regebro | Hi! Does anybody have a link to some example of using vocabularies? | 20:51 |
| regebro | In particular, (I think) I need vocabularies computed on the fly. | 20:51 |
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| Damascene | philiKON: hey there, is it true your book will be strictly paper format without an online version? | 21:08 |
| philiKON | yes | 21:08 |
| Damascene | ah okay. not released yet eh? i guess probably in march 2005? | 21:08 |
| philiKON | yes, publishers says in 2-3 weeks | 21:09 |
| Damascene | well i hopeit's in the local bookstore in that time too heh. or i might have to specially request it or something and waityet another 1-2 weeks. | 21:09 |
| philiKON | maybe you can preorder it through your bookstore today | 21:10 |
| Damascene | ah, well i'd probably peruse it first at the book store. i'm still wondering if i'm ready for zope 3 or not heh. | 21:11 |
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| jdz_ | philiKON: What book? :) | 21:11 |
| philiKON | i wrote a z3 book | 21:12 |
| philiKON | http://worldcookery.com | 21:12 |
| jdz_ | ah! awsome :) | 21:12 |
| jdz_ | I'm very excited about z3 books, let me check this out | 21:13 |
| Damascene | philiKON: is it okay for me to still ask you questions or should i wait for the book? ;) | 21:13 |
| philiKON | hehe. well you can ask questions but at some point i might say "just buy my book!" :) | 21:14 |
| Damascene | haha | 21:14 |
| jdz_ | very cool man! I'm defiantly going to get this :) | 21:15 |
| philiKON | seriously, i like helping out where i can, which is the main reason i wrote the book.. but i also gotta live, you know ;) | 21:15 |
| jdz_ | awsome work :) | 21:15 |
| Damascene | is worldcookery.com built with 5 content objects or just one generic one with a lot of views? | 21:15 |
| philiKON | worldcookery.com is one simple content object | 21:16 |
| philiKON | and a custom skin | 21:16 |
| Damascene | the content object is a place holder i presume? | 21:16 |
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| philiKON | what do you mean by place holder? | 21:16 |
| Damascene | i mean i tried to do something like that, and i alwasy ended up havign to make some dummy placeholder object called "index.html". | 21:16 |
| Damascene | and then my subviews were "index.html/products" or something. | 21:17 |
| philiKON | ahm, sorry | 21:17 |
| philiKON | now i get what you mean | 21:17 |
| Damascene | sory i'm not sure what the right terminology is either | 21:17 |
| philiKON | no, every page is its own instance of a content component | 21:17 |
| philiKON | your teminology was right | 21:17 |
| philiKON | i got it wrong | 21:17 |
| philiKON | there are indeed 5 content objects | 21:17 |
| philiKON | but they are instances of the same content component, a simple Page | 21:18 |
| philiKON | the skin only determines the layout of the site | 21:18 |
| Damascene | so teh bulk of your content is actually in zodb itself, it's not in the .pt files. | 21:18 |
| Damascene | er the tal template files that is. | 21:18 |
| philiKON | of course | 21:18 |
| philiKON | zpts are not supposed to hold content | 21:18 |
| Damascene | i guess i was always afraid of doing that... | 21:18 |
| philiKON | they're supposed to present the content | 21:18 |
| philiKON | content is, of course, held by content objects (in the zodb, sql, whatever) :) | 21:19 |
| Damascene | right, i like trying to hold it in perhaps sql. | 21:19 |
| Damascene | but then it becomes confusing... in my case would it be really 5 content objects ... or one content object with lots of views with parameters to access the sql backend? | 21:19 |
| philiKON | well, you'll have to identify what an a content comonent is in your application | 21:20 |
| Damascene | i guess i feel more comfortable with files or sql based storage systems. | 21:20 |
| philiKON | well, to be honest, there's nothing easier than writing ZODB storage :) | 21:20 |
| Damascene | i wanted to start really really simple. a pretty simple website. | 21:20 |
| philiKON | well, writing ZODB-storage-based content components | 21:20 |
| jdz_ | Damascene: I did too for a long time, but you learn to LOVE the zodb ;) | 21:20 |
| Damascene | you are right. if i just succumbed to the zodb system i think i'd have it working far faster. ;) | 21:21 |
| philiKON | i seriously doubt that | 21:21 |
| Damascene | i guess i like being able to dump it into ascii if i had to. i looked into the filesyncing stuff, but it somewhat scared me a bit. maybe i should reinvestigate it. | 21:21 |
| Damascene | philiKON: sorry, what did you doubt? (not sure what you were referring to?) | 21:21 |
| philiKON | i doubt that sql would be faster | 21:22 |
| philiKON | it simply depends on what you want to do | 21:22 |
| philiKON | what your kind of data is | 21:22 |
| Damascene | oh i didn't say sql was going to be faster. | 21:22 |
| philiKON | the zodb is just very different from sql | 21:22 |
| philiKON | the zodb is great at managing objects, and objects is what zope is about | 21:22 |
| Damascene | i said if i succumbed to the zodb (as in gave up trying to hook it from sql and just used zodb) i would have my system working far faster (i'd be done by now) | 21:22 |
| philiKON | sql is great at managing large amounts of data and doing stuff with it (counting, aggregating, joining, etc.) | 21:22 |
| philiKON | aaah | 21:22 |
| philiKON | right | 21:22 |
| philiKON | i agree with you then | 21:23 |
| philiKON | :) | 21:23 |
| Damascene | haha | 21:23 |
| Damascene | hmm but youa re right. i'm not going to require to do a lot of joining in THIS particualr case. | 21:23 |
| Damascene | in fact, i wont' be doing any of that now that i think about it. | 21:23 |
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| philiKON | you just have to realize that these two systems are good at different things | 21:23 |
| philiKON | and, again, writing zodb-persistent objects is a walk in the park | 21:23 |
| Damascene | i realize that, but ultimately i just want to be able to safely dump the zodb files out and edit it by hand if i have to? | 21:24 |
| Damascene | i think i can do that with the new zofsync features. i'll check again | 21:24 |
| philiKON | zofsync? | 21:25 |
| Damascene | sorry whatever taht new filesyncing thing is | 21:25 |
| philiKON | well, we kinda gave up on filesyncing | 21:25 |
| philiKON | we just have filerepresentation | 21:25 |
| philiKON | which means objects can present themselves as either files or directories | 21:25 |
| philiKON | FTP / WebDAV views use that | 21:25 |
| Damascene | zsync! | 21:25 |
| philiKON | yeah, zsync is R.I.P. until (maybe) revived | 21:26 |
| Damascene | okay well i'm a fruity guy. i use vim to edit content. | 21:26 |
| Damascene | is there some way i can edit content from say vim on the file system and have it... boom into the zodb like that? | 21:26 |
| philiKON | ftp, webdav, xmlrpc, whatever you want | 21:26 |
| philiKON | for the two former you'll just have to write filerepresentation adapters | 21:26 |
| philiKON | for the latter you'll have to write xmlrpc views and of course some kinda client that loads it up | 21:26 |
| Damascene | well this is why i kind of like just using sql as the backend. :) | 21:26 |
| Damascene | or i could use zodb and do it via the web interface. | 21:27 |
| mgedmin | philiKON, is webdav already fully implemented in zope 3? | 21:27 |
| philiKON | mgedmin, no :( | 21:27 |
| philiKON | mgedmin, but PUT is, and that's all he needs :) | 21:27 |
| mgedmin | ftp? | 21:27 |
| philiKON | ftp works | 21:27 |
| philiKON | Damascene, i don't see how using sql as the backend is improving here, you'd have to upload to the sql server too | 21:28 |
| philiKON | Damascene, with FTP/WebDAV you get at least the ability to mount stuff to the filesystem or have your editor open and save directly from/to FTP/WebDAV | 21:28 |
| Damascene | philiKON: yeah but i'm really familar with that. i can ssh in, update, edit, the sql server. i can easily write a little frontend for it (it's easier for me). | 21:28 |
| Damascene | philiKON: i guess the sql element isn't as strong if it's strictly content though (thinking it over) | 21:28 |
| philiKON | well, i'm sorta missing the web application in that 'i ssh to the server, use vim and other freakish unixy stuff' :) | 21:29 |
| Damascene | philiKON: and im' using ssh+vim (or ssh + sql cli) so the ftp element feature is nice but not something i can use via vim. | 21:29 |
| Damascene | i suppose i'd be unhappy if i lost my versioning capabilities if i relied on the TTW for ZODB. | 21:30 |
| Damascene | and i suppose a db doesn't help me there either. :( (versioning would be somewhat an issue again). | 21:30 |
| philiKON | the zodb supports simple versioning | 21:31 |
| philiKON | you can undo stuff, for example | 21:31 |
| Damascene | although i could probably put in a change log for postgrseql via triggering easily enough. | 21:31 |
| philiKON | there's an extra product from ZC that lets you do more versioning stuff | 21:31 |
| Damascene | hm. so i should probably use FTP or the webinterface, eh? :) | 21:31 |
| philiKON | well, the problem i have with this discussion is that you're mangling the discussion about the storage with a discussion about what editing interface you want | 21:32 |
| philiKON | for me those are two totally different topics | 21:32 |
| philiKON | the point is that z3 gives you the choice to choose on both ends | 21:33 |
| Damascene | ignore the editing interface element. i can always go in through the web and copy and paste from text files i suppose. | 21:33 |
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| Damascene | things like the navigation... i considered usign menuItems but realized that's a huge pita if i wanted to change things on the fly. i suppose i could make it query the zodb to find the list of content objects of a certain type in a certain folder inside zodb. | 21:38 |
| philiKON | menus are just one way of doing it | 21:40 |
| philiKON | in 3.1, menus are actually just special adapters | 21:40 |
| philiKON | which demonstrates that they're nothing special | 21:40 |
| philiKON | you can use that pattern but you don't have to | 21:40 |
| Damascene | does your book cover mostly 3.0 or some 3.1 elemetns as well? | 21:41 |
| philiKON | it covers only 3.0 | 21:41 |
| Damascene | i think then for content, i'd probably have 'titles' and 'list of subtitles' then 'article content' and maybe another 'title'. i guses it's easier to just say each content object has "content" and i writ eit up using rest or true html, etc? | 21:42 |
| philiKON | worldcookery.com uses reST for content | 21:43 |
| philiKON | Damascene, i plan to release the code for worldcookery.com, you can take a look at it then | 21:43 |
| Damascene | so for your About page, at best you might pull out the 'title' from the content object, but then it's all from 'rest content'? | 21:43 |
| philiKON | i actually have an IObjectModifiedEvent subscriber that updated the dublincore metadata after every editing of the page | 21:44 |
| philiKON | it gets the title of the page for the DC.Title and the first paragraph for DC.Description | 21:45 |
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