IRC log of #zope3-dev for Tuesday, 2005-03-29

*** th1a has quit IRC00:00
*** th1a has joined #zope3-dev00:02
*** philiKON has quit IRC00:16
*** tvon has joined #zope3-dev00:28
*** admp has joined #zope3-dev00:33
*** RaFromBRC has quit IRC00:46
*** RaFromBRC has joined #zope3-dev00:48
*** hazmat has quit IRC01:01
*** hazmat has joined #zope3-dev01:01
*** RaFromBRC has quit IRC01:23
*** nisha_cgx has joined #zope3-dev01:30
*** d2m has quit IRC01:33
*** RaFromBRC has joined #zope3-dev01:34
*** tvon has quit IRC01:53
*** tvon has joined #zope3-dev01:54
*** hazmat has quit IRC02:16
*** nisha_cgx has quit IRC02:16
*** hazmat has joined #zope3-dev02:16
*** nisha_cgx has joined #zope3-dev02:16
*** RaFromBRC is now known as RaFromBRC|afk03:01
*** projekt01 has left #zope3-dev03:11
*** bskahan has joined #zope3-dev03:23
*** hazmat has quit IRC03:24
*** RaFromBRC|afk has quit IRC03:59
*** bskahan has quit IRC04:03
*** niemeyer has quit IRC04:07
*** nisha_cgx has quit IRC04:11
*** thomaskorwed has joined #zope3-dev04:13
*** thomaskorwed has left #zope3-dev04:14
*** BjornT has joined #zope3-dev04:28
*** bskahan has joined #zope3-dev05:28
*** stub has joined #zope3-dev05:38
*** bskahan has quit IRC05:41
*** `anthony has quit IRC06:33
*** th1a_ has joined #zope3-dev07:04
*** BjornT has quit IRC07:17
*** th1a has quit IRC07:21
*** viyyer has joined #zope3-dev07:38
*** `anthony has joined #zope3-dev07:47
*** bradb has quit IRC07:50
*** bradb has joined #zope3-dev07:51
*** Arnia has left #zope3-dev08:12
*** hazmat has joined #zope3-dev09:19
*** sashav has joined #zope3-dev10:19
*** vlado has joined #zope3-dev10:37
*** projekt01 has joined #zope3-dev10:45
*** tarek_ has joined #zope3-dev11:17
*** `anthony has quit IRC11:32
*** deo has quit IRC11:33
*** efge has joined #zope3-dev11:41
*** deo has joined #zope3-dev11:42
*** MalcolmC has joined #zope3-dev12:05
*** philiKON has joined #zope3-dev12:07
*** hazmat has quit IRC12:11
*** mgedmin has joined #zope3-dev12:16
*** viyyer has quit IRC12:24
*** mkerrin has joined #zope3-dev12:41
*** d2m has joined #zope3-dev13:27
*** J1m_ has joined #zope3-dev13:44
*** Aiste has joined #zope3-dev13:47
*** Arnia has joined #zope3-dev13:54
*** lunatik has joined #zope3-dev14:05
*** Theuni has joined #zope3-dev14:05
*** mkerrin has quit IRC14:30
*** d2m has quit IRC14:36
*** viyyer has joined #zope3-dev14:48
*** Arnia has left #zope3-dev15:02
*** bskahan has joined #zope3-dev15:05
*** AJC has joined #zope3-dev15:17
AJCis there a good Z3-based blog manager?15:17
philiKONi don't think so15:17
* philiKON wonders why people are always asking about blog examples15:18
AJCheh, why not?15:18
lunatikAJC: is there a forum ?15:18
AJCi've done an article repository and a news page, i'm just looking for more examples15:18
lunatikso if no forum, why a blog ? :)15:18
*** `anthony has joined #zope3-dev15:19
AJClunatik, there is a simple forum in the tutorial, no?15:19
philiKONthe tutorial has the buddydemo15:19
philiKONa very simple content object + container15:19
philiKONif you are looking for deeper examples than that, you should read one of the two books15:19
AJCthen the book philiKON, it has a "message board" example15:19
philiKONe.g. http://worldcookery.com15:19
J1m_Michael Bernstein and Andy Dustman began a weblog product at PyCon in their application sprint15:20
lunatikif you've got a forum, you've got a blog :)15:20
J1m_They plan to release this.15:20
J1m_It is based on the atom standard15:20
* philiKON googles for this15:21
* bskahan is in the process of porting a plone based blog to Z315:27
lunatikbskahan: need a hand ? :)15:28
*** J1m_ has quit IRC15:28
bskahanlunatik: soon, as soon soon as I'm happy with the basic weblog/entry structure I'll release that part, then I'd love a hand15:29
bskahanat the moment its something of a learning project to help me understand skins and zcml15:29
lunatikbskahan: I'm just coding my own blog in python15:30
lunatikso, efforts can be join together15:30
bskahanthe code is in though it only works somedays, depending on whats going on15:31
lunatikI part on the idea that a blog is an inheritage of forum15:31
bskahansounds good, I'll try to spend some focused time on it this week to get it into collaborative shape15:31
lunatikI bookmark your svn uri15:31
lunatikcan I create private query with you ?15:32
*** sarca has joined #zope3-dev15:43
*** viyyer has quit IRC15:52
*** BjornT has joined #zope3-dev16:08
*** niemeyer has joined #zope3-dev16:15
*** sashav has quit IRC16:32
*** srichter has joined #zope3-dev16:41
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o srichter16:41
*** __gotcha has joined #zope3-dev16:52
*** mgedmin has quit IRC17:12
*** bradb has quit IRC17:14
*** sarca is now known as viyyer17:36
*** Aiste has quit IRC17:36
*** Aiste has joined #zope3-dev17:43
*** BjornT has quit IRC17:46
*** tvon has left #zope3-dev17:54
*** nimfa_ has joined #zope3-dev17:57
*** viyyer has quit IRC18:08
*** Aiste has quit IRC18:10
*** BjornT has joined #zope3-dev18:15
*** deo has quit IRC18:17
*** admp has joined #zope3-dev18:18
*** niemeyer has quit IRC18:30
*** nimfa_ has quit IRC18:32
*** nimfa__ has joined #zope3-dev18:32
*** mooded has joined #zope3-dev18:39
*** `anthony has quit IRC18:50
*** `anthony has joined #zope3-dev18:53
J1mgarrett-smith, ayt?18:56
*** stub has quit IRC19:00
*** tvon has joined #zope3-dev19:01
*** bradb has joined #zope3-dev19:05
*** Theuni has quit IRC19:10
srichterJ1m: why was a IAuthentication2 interface created?19:11
srichtercan IAuthentication not be adjusted using BBB to fit the new needs?19:12
J1mnot really19:12
J1mInterfaces are contracts19:12
J1mThere should not change19:12
J1mThey should not change19:13
srichtermmh, but we develop interfaces all the time19:13
srichterthey change like the software changes19:13
*** mooded has quit IRC19:13
J1mPublic interfaces should not change19:14
srichteras long as the new interface degrades nicely to the old's  behavior everything is fine19:14
srichtermmh, maybe you are right19:14
srichterbut having version numbers behind interface names is not an ideal solution either19:15
J1mRight, it would be better to get interfaces right the first time. :)19:15
J1mWe could add "_ex". ;)19:15
srichterso what changed on the interface so much that it needed a new version?19:16
J1madded a logout api19:16
srichteroh, I see, it performs logout()19:17
srichtermmh, I think IAuthenticationLogout would have been better19:17
srichtersince the security code still depends on IAuthentication and not IAuthentication219:17
J1mBut that will change in 3.319:18
srichtermmh, can we not add logout() to IAuthentication then19:19
J1mThat would change the contract.19:19
srichterand it is part of the BBB code to detect whether logout is really provided19:19
J1mIt is? Where?19:19
srichterno, I suggest doing this19:20
*** hazmat has joined #zope3-dev19:20
J1mI'd like to start doing this the right way.19:20
J1mOnce an interface is set, it shouldn't change.19:20
J1mversion numbers are a necessary evil.19:20
srichtermaybe eventually we will be able to cycle it around19:22
*** nimfa__ has quit IRC19:22
srichteri.e. in 3.3 we require IAuthentication2 and then we rename it later (in 3.6) to IAuthentication again19:22
philiKONthat will only be confusing19:22
philiKONbtw, what is this "BBB gone in 3.1" in
philiKONsame goes for ...browserplugins where ti says "# BBB, entire module gone in 3.1"19:25
J1mIt means that the backward compatibility code will go away before 3.1.19:25
philiKONuh huh19:26
* philiKON thought we were in the process of getting 3.1 ready19:26
J1myes, we are19:26
*** th1a_ is now known as th1a19:26
philiKONk... just wondering19:27
philiKONsvn blames garrett-smith for those lines, so i guess he'll do the cleanup when he does his refactoring19:28
J1mHe's done19:28
J1mBut he'll need to rip that stuff out before long.19:28
srichterBBB comments are the responsibility of the community not the original author19:28
srichterwell, it is the responsibility of the community to remove all outdated BBB code before a release19:29
J1mOK, whoever :)19:30
*** lunatik has left #zope3-dev19:43
*** insanekane has joined #zope3-dev19:45
*** mgedmin has joined #zope3-dev19:53
*** alga has joined #zope3-dev19:56
*** ignas has joined #zope3-dev19:56
insanekane i have a funny situation with ZODB: I have a Zeo server running. I open one python shell, and i add an object to root, and then commit. i open another python shell, and read root, and it comes out ok. then, i go back to the first shell, add something else. i then switch to the second shell, and print the values in root, and the added item isnt there. however, when i restart the second shell, and print the value of root, the added items are there. Is th19:56
philiKONinsanekane, did you commit the transaction?19:57
insanekanephiliKON: yes19:57
insanekanephiliKON: the thing is, (if i didnt commit) then the value will never come no matter how many times i restart the second shell19:57
insanekanephiliKON: but it does come *if* i restart ..19:58
insanekanephiliKON: my code is about 4-5 lines, mostly copied from the examples19:58
*** niemeyer has joined #zope3-dev19:58
philiKONsorry, no idea19:59
*** vlado is now known as vlado|away19:59
*** MalcolmC has quit IRC19:59
insanekanephiliKON: isnt it supposed to transparently update the changed objects ?19:59
*** J1m is now known as J1m-away20:00
philiKONthink so20:00
*** nimfa__ has joined #zope3-dev20:04
efgeinsanekane: you have to sync the transaction to see other modified obejcts20:13
efgesync the connection, rather20:14
mgedminI have to admit that ZODB syncrhonization mystifies me20:14
*** insanekane has quit IRC20:14
mgedminis there anywhere I could read about it?20:15
efgehm no idea, appart from zodb-dev archives :)20:15
efgeall Tim's emails there are interesting20:15
* mgedmin nods20:15
efgein Zope 2.7 that would be self._p_jar.sync(), dunno about Zope 320:16
*** insanekane has joined #zope3-dev20:16
*** hazmat has quit IRC20:17
efgenote, syncing the connection aborts the current transactions20:18
*** tvon has quit IRC20:23
philiKONefge, persistency is the same in z320:25
philiKONso, all persistent objects should still have _p_jar20:26
*** nisha_cgx has joined #zope3-dev20:26
philiKONefge, as to understanding what that means: syncing is like the 'svn up' of ZODB?20:26
mgedminmore like svn revert -r; svn up, since syncing aborts your transaction and removes your changes20:27
*** hazmat has joined #zope3-dev20:28
philiKONso, is MVCC something that deals with conflicts arising from two independent zeo instances trying to commit (while one of them shoudl really do a sync())?20:30
*** vlado|away has quit IRC20:30
*** vlado|away has joined #zope3-dev20:30
*** tvon has joined #zope3-dev20:32
insanekanephiliKON: whats this sync() ?20:34
philiKONmethod of your zodb connection object20:34
insanekanephiliKON: what does it do ?20:34
philiKONzodb connection == pickle jar (_p_jar)20:34
philiKONit syncs your current connection with what happened on the ZEO server20:34
insanekanephiliKON: does it poll for invalidations from the server ?20:34
*** tarek_ has quit IRC20:35
insanekanephiliKON: oh ... so the app developer has the resonsibility to sync ?20:35
philiKONin zope 3 not20:36
philiKONbut when working with plain zodb, yes20:36
insanekanephiliKON: oh wow ... no wonder20:36
philiKONin plain zodb, you have the reponsiblity to sync and commit transactions20:36
insanekanephiliKON: no wonder my values werent being transfered properly ...20:36
philiKONzope 3 does this automatically for you20:36
insanekanephiliKON: ok, transactions i can understand ... but shouldnt the ClientStorage automatically sync with the server ?20:37
mgedminzope 3 calls sync?20:37
*** Arnia has joined #zope3-dev20:37
philiKONmgedmin, i guess it somewhere does20:37
insanekanephiliKON: wouldnt it be inefficient for me sync rather than if ClientStorage syncs ?20:37
mgedminthis is interesting20:37
philiKONmgedmin, how else would it work?20:37
mgedminI assumed that it was enough to just call transaction.commit20:37
mgedminevery now and then20:37
mgedminand everything else would Just Work20:37
philiKONi presume that upon a zope request, something like this happens:20:38
* philiKON is guessing wildly20:38
insanekanezodb3-3.3 fails 1 unit test20:39
insanekaneaha ... philiKON, now ZODB works ... i didnt know abt sync() ... it should be mentioned in the docs20:43
insanekanephiliKON: is sync() a very expensive call ? ie, should I keep sync()-ing in GUI Idle events ?20:44
insanekanephiliKON: and, is there any way to flush some object from the cache manually ? and also, and to always keep some object in the cache20:45
philiKONsorry, noooooo idea20:46
philiKONi really don't know much about zodb20:46
insanekanephiliKON: sorry if im asking stupid questions :)20:46
insanekanephiliKON: ok20:46
philiKONthose don't sound like stupid questions20:47
philiKONby looking at the code, sync() invokes the storage's sync()20:47
mgedminthat doesn't inspire confidence in zodb, does it?20:47
mgedminwhen zope 3 gurus claim they don't understand it...20:48
philiKONmgedmin, well, truth is, i'm very confident in the zodb20:48
philiKONbecause it rarely fails me even though i understand nearly nothing about it :)20:48
insanekanephiliKON: good answer :)20:49
insanekanephiliKON: any idea how to configure Zope3 with a ZEO instance ? there seems not be an example of this20:51
insanekanephiliKON: sorry, to use a zope instance ..20:51
insanekanezeo instance20:51
insanekaneto configure zope3 to use a zeo intance20:51
* mgedmin needs to translate widget error messages21:01
*** efge has left #zope3-dev21:12
*** admp has quit IRC21:14
*** ignas has quit IRC21:16
*** insanekane has quit IRC21:17
mgedminerror rendering in zope 3 goes as follows:21:20
mgedmin1. widget_row macro calls widget.error()21:21
mgedmin2. BrowserWidget.error gets a view providing IWidgetInputErrorView and calls view.snippet()21:21
mgedmin3. WidgetInputErrorView.snippet calls self.context.doc(), escapes the result with cgi.escape, and puts the result into a <span> element21:22
*** admp has joined #zope3-dev21:22
mgedmin4. ValidationError.doc() returns self.__clas__.__doc__21:22
mgedminself.__class__.__doc__ is a MessageID21:22
mgedminbut you have to translate those explicitly, AFAIU21:23
philiKONwow is this complicated21:23
mgedminif you just do cgi.escape(_('...')), '...' won't be translated21:23
srichterphiliKON: yes, it is; I hope Gary's refactorings for 3.2 will make things much easier21:23
*** SteveA_ has joined #zope3-dev21:23
philiKONmgedmin, right21:23
srichtermgedmin: good catch21:23
philiKONmgedmin, it should be cgi.escape(translate(the_msgid))21:23
philiKONwhere translate is zope.i18n.translate21:24
philiKONmgedmin, also _(some_variable) is bogus21:24
philiKONmgedmin, the extractor script will never catch it21:24
philiKONit should be:21:24
philiKONclass SomeValidatorError:21:24
philiKON    _("""doc string""")21:24
mgedminanyway, I have an existing web text customization/translation system, and I want to integrate widget error translations with it21:24
mgedminphiliKON, wrong21:24
mgedminit should be __doc__ = _("""doc string""")21:24
mgedminand it is so everywhere21:24
philiKONok, even that21:24
*** alga has quit IRC21:25
* philiKON shuts up then21:25
mgedminat least I haven't noticed _(variable) anywhere yet21:25
* philiKON used to, but he got rid of them back in the x3.0 days21:25
hazmatphiliKON, barnes and noble us just pushed delivery of your book till end of april21:27
*** nimfa__ is now known as Aiste21:27
*** admp has quit IRC21:27
*** SteveA has quit IRC21:28
*** Babalorixa has joined #zope3-dev21:29
*** admp has joined #zope3-dev21:32
*** admp has quit IRC21:36
*** admp has joined #zope3-dev21:38
*** Arnia has left #zope3-dev21:38
mgedminWidgetInputError.__init__ has an optional keyword argument 'errors'21:40
mgedminthe docstring says it is a ValidationError, or a list of ValidationError objects21:40
mgedminyet WidgetInputError.doc() assumes it is always a single ValidationError21:40
mgedminand the constructor may happily assign the default value which is None and is neither a list nor a ValidationError object21:41
*** alga has joined #zope3-dev21:53
*** RaFromBRC has joined #zope3-dev21:53
*** bskahan has quit IRC21:54
*** nisha_cgx has quit IRC22:45
mgedminyou can't post-mortem debug failed doctests :-(22:50
*** SteveA_ has quit IRC22:51
*** SteveA_ has joined #zope3-dev22:52
philiKONhazmat, thanks for the info23:06
J1m-awaymgedmin, I do all the time.23:07
*** J1m-away is now known as J1m23:07
J1mmgedmin, this is a bug.  I think garrett-smith pointed this out to me recently.23:08
mgedminmaybe I am doing something wrong then23:08
* mgedmin is suddenly confused23:09
J1mI thought whoever pointed out to me was going to fix it or submit an issue.23:09
mgedminuh, J1m, what exactly are you talking about?23:09
J1mmgedmin, dang, sorry23:09
* mgedmin also realizes that he was looking at an older snapshot of Zope 3 trunk when he investigated error message translation23:09
J1mI was responding to *both* of your comments, in reverse order. :)23:10
mgedminboth?  I made three comments :)23:10
J1mwrt doctest post-mortem debugging:23:10
J1mmgedmin, I do all the time.23:10
J1mIt works for me23:10
mgedmin./ -D?23:10
J1mwrt widget input errors23:11
J1mmgedmin, this is a bug.  I think garrett-smith pointed this out to me recently.23:11
J1mI thought whoever pointed out to me was going to fix it or submit an issue.23:11
J1mDoes that help?23:11
J1mNote that (wrd doctest), you have to use zope.testing.doctest (not doctest)23:11
*** RaFromBRC is now known as RaFromBRC|lunch23:12
J1malso, errors in functional-test zcml processing have to be handled separately.23:12
J1m-D only works for failed tests.  Not for test-runner setup.23:12
mgedminre -D: operator error, it does indeed work23:12
mgedminonly pdb doesn't find the source file and thus cannot show the source23:13
J1mIt normally does for me.23:13
mgedminre error translation: it turns out I was looking at a Zope 3 snapshot from February 200523:13
mgedminit might be fixed on the trunk23:13
J1mPerhaps you renamed a directory23:13
mgedmin> <string>(1)?()23:13
mgedmin(Pdb) l23:13
J1mtry emoving all your pyc files.23:13
J1mtry removing all your pyc files.23:14
mgedminI'll try that23:14
*** tonico has joined #zope3-dev23:14
mgedminthe important thing is to know that it's *supposed* to work23:14
J1mThe <string> thing means it's not a pyc thing23:14
J1mdoctest tries to make showing source lines work23:15
J1mIt does at least most of the time for me.23:15
mgedminok, I'll investigate that tomorrow23:16
mgedminthanks for your comments!23:16
*** mgedmin has quit IRC23:17
*** tvon has quit IRC23:21
*** Babalorixa has quit IRC23:28
*** Aiste has quit IRC23:42
*** admp has quit IRC23:50
*** admp has joined #zope3-dev23:51

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!