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| tvon | svn having issues? | 01:59 |
|---|---|---|
| hazmat | apparentely | 01:59 |
| hazmat | i get the same | 01:59 |
| hazmat | svn ls svn+ssh://k_vertigo@svn.zope.org/repos/main/Zope/branches | 01:59 |
| hazmat | svn: Berkeley DB error while opening 'representations' table for filesystem /svn/repos/main/db: | 01:59 |
| hazmat | Cannot allocate memory | 01:59 |
| * hazmat kicks bdb | 01:59 | |
| tvon | thats the one | 01:59 |
| projekt01 | Write a mail to Jim, he should recover the subversion repository | 02:00 |
| hazmat | moving to fsfs would stop the pain | 02:01 |
| projekt01 | Yup, Can you just export/import the dump? | 02:01 |
| hazmat | yup | 02:01 |
| projekt01 | Ok, cool | 02:02 |
| WebMaven | Hi hazmat | 02:02 |
| WebMaven | I'm back from PyCon | 02:02 |
| tvon | whee pycon | 02:04 |
| hazmat | mail sent | 02:04 |
| hazmat | pycon.. in another few days i can stop reading about what i missed on the aggregators ;-) | 02:05 |
| tvon | hehe | 02:05 |
| hazmat | tvon, out of curosity what do you use for an rss feed reader? | 02:05 |
| tvon | hazmat: liferia at the moment, I'm not married to it though | 02:05 |
| tvon | used blam for a while.. straw on rare occasion | 02:05 |
| hazmat | yeah.. i've been through that same route, i'm settling down on akregator(kde) for now... blam is a little too minimalist, straw unstable, liferea is okay. | 02:06 |
| WebMaven | hazmat, this year everything was recorded and video'd, you'll be able to watch it all and twitch as you want to ask questions during the Q&A periods. ;-) | 02:06 |
| tvon | WebMaven: know when/how those will be available? | 02:06 |
| * hazmat reaches for the remote control | 02:06 | |
| tvon | I'd like to see some things I missed | 02:07 |
| WebMaven | I've found Straw stable, but it chews up *way* too much memory for the number of feeds I'm interested in. | 02:07 |
| WebMaven | Supposedly, that will be addressed by the new maintainer. | 02:08 |
| tvon | ah, new maintainer | 02:08 |
| WebMaven | tvon, unknown as of yet. | 02:08 |
| WebMaven | tvon, were you there? | 02:11 |
| tvon | WebMaven: yeah | 02:12 |
| tvon | WebMaven: half awake, but present | 02:12 |
| WebMaven | how about for the Sprints? | 02:12 |
| tvon | no, I swung by on Monday but was only there for an hour | 02:12 |
| WebMaven | Ah. | 02:13 |
| WebMaven | Well, Andy Dustman and I did a two-man sprint all four days, working on a simple weblog for Zope3. It was hard going at first, but we dug in and produced something halfway functional by the end. | 02:14 |
| WebMaven | It'll be released eventually. | 02:15 |
| tvon | ah, cool | 02:15 |
| WebMaven | I think we'll make it GPL. | 02:16 |
| tvon | They need to change venues I think... GW was a bit packed | 02:16 |
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| tvon | k, doing the fsfs switch myself here... | 02:18 |
| WebMaven | fsfs? | 02:18 |
| tvon | subversion backend | 02:18 |
| Arnia | tvon: Oh? | 02:18 |
| tvon | Arnia: oh oh? | 02:19 |
| * Arnia hands tvon a ring of power to covert | 02:19 | |
| tvon | heh | 02:19 |
| * Arnia goes to see if there has been any fallout from the httpRange-14 issue | 02:20 | |
| WebMaven | tvon, it will be in a new venue next year. | 02:20 |
| tvon | WebMaven: oh? cool | 02:20 |
| tvon | WebMaven: tbd? | 02:21 |
| WebMaven | tvon, but we don't know where yet. | 02:21 |
| * tvon nods | 02:21 | |
| tvon | WebMaven: still in DC? | 02:21 |
| * tvon notes that people should hold con's in Baltimore, it's cheaper to stay/eat/party/whatever | 02:21 | |
| WebMaven | tvon, there are varous candidate venues, if you want to get involved it's not too early (or too late). | 02:21 |
| WebMaven | baltimore is being considered. | 02:22 |
| tvon | oh cool | 02:22 |
| Arnia | I think more people should hold conferences in Newcastle... very convenient and a lovely city with another lovely city just 10 miles down the road ;) | 02:23 |
| Arnia | I'm biased though | 02:24 |
| tvon | hehe | 02:24 |
| * tvon is too, living in Baltimore and all | 02:24 | |
| Arnia | Plus everyone can ooh and ahh at Durham Cathedral and then at the Sage, Gateshead and the Millennium Bridge etc... lots of cool buildings around where I live :) | 02:27 |
| shapr | and I can meet the local unicyclists. | 02:27 |
| tvon | oh score | 02:28 |
| tvon | gah crap | 02:28 |
| tvon | always forget that I have wrapper scripts for svn/svnadmin/svnserve | 02:29 |
| tvon | which...are now gone of course since I upgraded the packges | 02:29 |
| Arnia | shapr: we have loads of trampolinists for sure | 02:32 |
| Arnia | Do you want me to send one across to you? | 02:33 |
| * tvon would like a trampolinist | 02:35 | |
| Arnia | I can throw in a cobble from Bow Lane (the road where William the Conquerer fled the demon who terrified him when he threatened the Cathedral) | 02:36 |
| Arnia | Better yet... I can throw a cobble at you | 02:36 |
| tvon | haha | 02:37 |
| Arnia | Hmm... I wish I could understand the Zope 3 Ubuntu packages | 02:39 |
| WebMaven | Arnia, I use them, what's the problem? | 02:40 |
| Arnia | I just can't figure out how to create an instance... mkzopeinstance doesn't seem to work | 02:41 |
| * Arnia shrugs | 02:42 | |
| WebMaven | Ah. | 02:43 |
| WebMaven | How are you calling mkzopeinstance? | 02:43 |
| shapr | Arnia: trampoline email sent to me always bounces. | 02:49 |
| WebMaven | Arnia? | 02:51 |
| shapr | I suspect he's still gagging from that evil pun. | 02:51 |
| * Arnia returns | 04:34 | |
| Arnia | Just watched All The President's Men | 04:34 |
| Arnia | Dunno if anyone is still around :) | 04:34 |
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| insanekane | hello Arnia, | 11:07 |
| Arnia | Hi, I'm about to go to sleep :) | 11:07 |
| insanekane | hehe ... i just woke up :) | 11:08 |
| insanekane | Arnia: anyway, i just said hi! :) ... not going to bother u with any questions :) | 11:08 |
| Arnia | I'll probably see you around later | 11:11 |
| * Arnia hits slashdot with a nuke on the way out | 11:11 | |
| insanekane | ciao Arnia, | 11:11 |
| insanekane | Arnia: which is ur timezone ? | 11:11 |
| Arnia | BST | 11:13 |
| insanekane | Arnia: BST ? | 11:13 |
| insanekane | can u tell me in terms of GMT ? | 11:13 |
| Arnia | GMT+1 | 11:14 |
| insanekane | Arnia: ok thanks | 11:14 |
| insanekane | Arnia: and ur going to sleep now LOL :) i guess uve had a long night ... | 11:15 |
| insanekane | Arnia: good night/morning anyway | 11:15 |
| Arnia | :) | 11:15 |
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| bskahan | Zope3 subversion is throwing a DB error | 15:38 |
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| projekt01 | bskahan, Yup, wait till tomorrow, Jim has to recover the Subersions Berkley DB | 16:12 |
| bskahan | projekt01: thanks | 16:15 |
| bskahan | projekt01: I saw your name attached to the LDAP auth sub-project, how's progress (I was going to grab the source and look, but ...) | 16:17 |
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| projekt01 | Uh, it's out of scope for the trunk. Do you use it for the 3.0X? | 16:20 |
| bskahan | I haven't used it yet, was starting to look at it today | 16:21 |
| projekt01 | Hm, they are different changes in the trunk, which requieres some refactoring on ldapauth. | 16:21 |
| projekt01 | I think there is a new project called somthing like ldappas | 16:22 |
| bskahan | it worked with 3.0 though? | 16:22 |
| bskahan | thanks, I'll look at that when svn is back up | 16:22 |
| projekt01 | Which reflects the last changes form PAU (Plugable Authentication Utility) | 16:22 |
| projekt01 | Take a look at PAU in zope.app.authentication | 16:23 |
| projekt01 | And there is a rpository something like ladppas | 16:23 |
| projekt01 | This schould work for the trunk or after the next release of 3.1 | 16:23 |
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| bskahan | cool, thank you | 16:23 |
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| projekt01 | Perhaps Derrick is working on a LDAP integration or will migrate it after we have a 3.1 release. | 16:24 |
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| insanekane | http://svn.zope.org/Zope3 <- doesnt seem to work .... | 17:12 |
| philiKON | ouch, svn down again | 17:12 |
| insanekane | hmm | 17:12 |
| insanekane | philiKON: any idea how to report it and get it up again ? | 17:15 |
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| insanekane | hello Arnia, | 17:22 |
| insanekane | Arnia: any idea how to report the svn outage and get it back up again ? | 17:22 |
| Arnia | Uhh... I think you just did ;) | 17:22 |
| insanekane | Arnia: ?? | 17:22 |
| Arnia | Email the mailing list though | 17:22 |
| insanekane | Arnia: ok .. | 17:22 |
| insanekane | Arnia: btw, are you the author of the Messagebox example of content objects ? | 17:24 |
| philiKON | insanekane, write an email to jim@zope.com | 17:24 |
| philiKON | insanekane, srichter is the author of the messagebox example app | 17:24 |
| insanekane | philiKON: to report the svn outage ? | 17:25 |
| philiKON | yes | 17:25 |
| Arnia | Hey philiKON. Congrats on the book release | 17:25 |
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| insanekane | philiKON: done. | 17:27 |
| mexiKON | Arnia, sorry, got disconnected from inet | 17:28 |
| mexiKON | Arnia, didn't catch that | 17:28 |
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| insanekane | Arnia: in the messagebox app, the security settings are in zcml files - are these loaded into the ZODB at startup ? (or can we force it to do so?) | 17:28 |
| philiKON | insanekane, security settings in zope 3 don't live in the zodfb | 17:29 |
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| philiKON | nothing lives in the zodb except persistent objects (objects that derive from Persistent) | 17:29 |
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| SteveA | philiKON: that's not exactly right | 17:44 |
| SteveA | philiKON: object's that do not derive from Persistent also live in the ZODB if they are picklable, and if they are an attribute of another persistent object | 17:44 |
| philiKON | true | 17:44 |
| insanekane | SteveA: are the permissions also stored in the ZODB ? or are they maintained as zcml files ? | 17:46 |
| SteveA | which permissions? in general, you declare what permissions are required to access the attributes of objects in zcml. | 17:47 |
| SteveA | i don't know about the fancy persistent module stuff | 17:47 |
| insanekane | SteveA: yes, but after we declare them in zcml, are they also available in the ZODB ? | 17:47 |
| insanekane | oh ok | 17:47 |
| SteveA | either something is in the zodb or it is not. | 17:47 |
| SteveA | it doesn't make sense to say "available to the ZODB" | 17:48 |
| insanekane | SteveA: ok sorry ... wrong words to use ... what im asking is, if i have another client connecting to the same ZODB, then can I access the permissions via my client ? | 17:48 |
| SteveA | no | 17:48 |
| insanekane | SteveA: access = view + update | 17:48 |
| SteveA | permissions, defined in zcml, are set for that particular python process | 17:49 |
| insanekane | ok ... | 17:49 |
| SteveA | this is interesting, because you could conceivably run two clients from the same ZODB (via ZEO) which use different permissions. | 17:49 |
| insanekane | ok, the reason im asking is this: if the permissions,roles,users etc (ie, ACL) is in the ZODB, then an extension of ZEO could apply then right ? | 17:50 |
| insanekane | err .. | 17:51 |
| insanekane | an extension of ZEO could apply them right ? | 17:51 |
| efge | insanekane: method/attribute protections are expressed in ZCML and not stored in the ZODB, but users/roles *can* be stored in the ZODB if you use an authentication service designed for it | 17:54 |
| insanekane | efge: is there any way to get the entire permissions into the ZODB ? | 17:55 |
| insanekane | efge: the permissions, user database, ACL, user-role mapping ... basically the whole lot ... | 17:56 |
| insanekane | efge: is it possible ? | 17:56 |
| efge | insanekane: it's theoretically possible of course, but nobody's written it and nobody has plans | 17:57 |
| efge | today what's not in the ZODB is the protection of the code, and I don't see why it would live anywhere else than in the filesystem, next to the code | 17:57 |
| efge | insanekane: user database, user-role mapping etc. can already live in ZODB | 17:57 |
| efge | and user-permission and permission-role mappings too | 17:58 |
| insanekane | the protection of the code ? what do u mean by that ? | 17:58 |
| efge | insanekane: do you know zope 2 ? | 17:58 |
| SteveA | insanekane: there's a document you should read about the zope3 security system | 17:58 |
| insanekane | efge: no :) thankfully, im starting fresh with zope3 | 17:58 |
| insanekane | SteveA: where is that ? | 17:59 |
| efge | insanekane: well when you say method "getSomething" can only be accessed by permission "DoSomething", that's protection of the code | 17:59 |
| SteveA | doc/security/system-overview.txt | 17:59 |
| insanekane | SteveA: that doesnt contain the information im looking for: basically, what i need is a client (written in PyQt) to connect to the same Zeo that is being used by a Zope server, and be able to modify/view the permissions on objects. is this possible ? | 18:04 |
| SteveA | why do you want to modify permissions on objects? | 18:05 |
| insanekane | SteveA: ie, the only API i can use the Zeo ClientStorage API .. | 18:05 |
| SteveA | i can understand modifying the the authorization policy for particular objects | 18:05 |
| SteveA | but not modifying the permissions | 18:05 |
| insanekane | SteveA: ok, by permissions i mean, the mapping between users (principals) and the permissions they are given on specific objects ... can I change that ? | 18:06 |
| insanekane | the permissions they are granted | 18:07 |
| insanekane | can I grant them more permissions, and/or deny them permissions via a PyQt client, that can only use ZODB ? | 18:07 |
| insanekane | also, create/remove users, grant them roles etc etc .. | 18:08 |
| insanekane | thats what i mean ... am I using the wrong terminology for all this ? | 18:08 |
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| efge | insanekane: yes you can do that | 18:11 |
| efge | I couldn't give you a pointer in the code though | 18:11 |
| insanekane | whew thanks :) | 18:11 |
| SteveA | insanekane: that's what decides "authorization", not "permissions" | 18:12 |
| SteveA | insanekane: the most straightforward way to do this is to define your own authorization policy, and use this instead of the default one | 18:12 |
| SteveA | insanekane: and make it get its information from the zodb. | 18:12 |
| insanekane | SteveA: oho .. so the default zopesecuritypolicy doesnt store the authorizations in the zodb ? | 18:13 |
| insanekane | ok, i guess not | 18:13 |
| insanekane | SteveA, efge, thanks for your help :) | 18:14 |
| SteveA | the default policy uses roles and stuff like that | 18:15 |
| insanekane | aah great :) svn is back | 18:15 |
| insanekane | SteveA: yeah, i really would like to use that via zodb | 18:15 |
| SteveA | on the large system i work on, we use a totally different policy that gets adapters and asks the adapter if the action is allowed. | 18:15 |
| SteveA | these adapters typically query a relational database. | 18:15 |
| insanekane | (i dont want to create my own security policy) | 18:16 |
| insanekane | SteveA: so basically, the rdbms stores the mapping between principals and what permissions they have been granted/denied ? | 18:16 |
| efge | insanekane: btw don't confuse roles and permissions | 18:17 |
| insanekane | efge: yeah sorry :) | 18:18 |
| SteveA | insanekane: the database has a lot of information in it. that information is queried to determine whether the logged-in user has the permission requested on the object in question. | 18:18 |
| SteveA | insanekane: it is more like making queries in the data than looking up a particular table of principals and permissions. | 18:19 |
| insanekane | SteveA: yes i get it | 18:19 |
| insanekane | a user can also temporarily get permissions on a specific instance with your advanced method :) | 18:19 |
| SteveA | this is easiest if you write your own authorization system. it isn't hard to do. | 18:20 |
| SteveA | then, you have full control over the how permissions are granted to principals. | 18:20 |
| insanekane | SteveA: actually, i want to use the existing Role's based system, but i just need the data to be in the zodb so i can modify it without Zope (or most of it) | 18:22 |
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| philiKON | insanekane, i suggest you read a book on zope 3, e.g. http://worldcookery.com | 19:03 |
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| garrett-smith | philiKON: saw your book at PyCon -- looks sweeeet! | 19:12 |
| garrett-smith | so how can I get it in the US? | 19:13 |
| philiKON | i wish i could tell you | 19:13 |
| philiKON | i wish they would sell the damn thing in america | 19:13 |
| philiKON | i have no clue why they don't so far | 19:13 |
| Arnia | philiKON: Is it available on amazon.co.uk? | 19:13 |
| philiKON | garrett-smith, have you tried ordering thru a local book store? | 19:13 |
| philiKON | Arnia, yes, check http://worldcookery.com/WhereToBuy | 19:13 |
| Arnia | Danke | 19:14 |
| bskahan | the hot market for smuggled zope books | 19:14 |
| philiKON | Bitte | 19:14 |
| garrett-smith | philiKON: I haven't tried that | 19:17 |
| philiKON | garrett-smith, right now i think that'd be the best option | 19:18 |
| philiKON | sicne amazon don't sell it, barnes & noble online neither and springer NY online sez 3-4 weeks delivery time | 19:19 |
| * Arnia adds the book to his shopping cart | 19:19 | |
| philiKON | garrett-smith, if you succeed in either way, please let me know so i can let other people in the U.S. know | 19:20 |
| garrett-smith | will do | 19:20 |
| garrett-smith | you gotta yell at your publisher/distributor man | 19:20 |
| philiKON | buh-lieve me i will | 19:20 |
| garrett-smith | :-) | 19:20 |
| garrett-smith | looks really good though, seriously | 19:21 |
| garrett-smith | i think people are really going to like it | 19:21 |
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| philiKON | i'm glad you like it | 19:21 |
| philiKON | i hope it'll catch on a little bit and make zope 3 more popular | 19:22 |
| philiKON | also, i'd like to be at least somewhat successful so i have a good standing with the publisher for further editions | 19:22 |
| garrett-smith | I got some good feedback at PyCon | 19:22 |
| garrett-smith | on Zope3 in general | 19:22 |
| philiKON | the book covers x3.0 and x3.1 will bring some very serious improvements | 19:22 |
| philiKON | that's great | 19:22 |
| garrett-smith | I think people are a little intimidated by Zope3's architectural rigour | 19:23 |
| philiKON | not anymore i think | 19:23 |
| philiKON | the scaregoat is zcml | 19:23 |
| garrett-smith | yes, and the preception that everything has to go through an interface | 19:24 |
| philiKON | yes | 19:24 |
| philiKON | interfaces and zcml | 19:24 |
| Arnia | I don't see that as a bad thing for enterprise apps though... | 19:24 |
| philiKON | no | 19:24 |
| Arnia | It makes everything traceable | 19:24 |
| garrett-smith | no, but that's a different community -- the J2EE crowd | 19:25 |
| philiKON | and z3 (at least righ tnow) doesn't want to be a scripter paltform that z2 always pretended it as | 19:25 |
| philiKON | s/as/was/ | 19:25 |
| bskahan | interfaces don't seem to bother people so much after they see examples | 19:25 |
| philiKON | right, the target community has changed towards more einterprise apps | 19:25 |
| philiKON | bskahan, yep, after all, that's still python code | 19:25 |
| garrett-smith | i think we should copy some stuff from ruby on rails (not too familiar with it) -- people seem to like it's ease of use | 19:26 |
| philiKON | pythonistas are always very hesitant to write anything else than python | 19:26 |
| philiKON | garrett-smith, ruby has a very different approach though | 19:26 |
| garrett-smith | the simplification of ZCML with 'adapts' etc will help a ton | 19:26 |
| philiKON | garrett-smith, in z3, everything is explicit | 19:26 |
| philiKON | in rails, everything is glued together magically | 19:26 |
| garrett-smith | I'm not saying copy *everything* :-) | 19:26 |
| philiKON | "name your class this way, name methods this way, and it will just work" | 19:26 |
| Arnia | I prefer explicitness personally :) | 19:26 |
| garrett-smith | i agree | 19:27 |
| philiKON | garrett-smith, :) | 19:27 |
| garrett-smith | i'm with you guys | 19:27 |
| philiKON | i want to look more at rails | 19:27 |
| garrett-smith | i'm just relaying what i heard at PyCon, that's all | 19:27 |
| philiKON | and ruby in general | 19:27 |
| philiKON | i think what jim wante dto do with reviving bobo | 19:27 |
| philiKON | iow, a very simple python publishing framework | 19:28 |
| Arnia | Hmm | 19:28 |
| philiKON | could lower the bar for some pythonistas | 19:28 |
| philiKON | no zcml, fo rexample | 19:28 |
| garrett-smith | that's right | 19:28 |
| garrett-smith | I think there's a need for that in the Python ecology | 19:28 |
| philiKON | yes, and maybe in the z shaped learning curve | 19:29 |
| philiKON | as a book author, i'm always looking at the didactic aspect now :) | 19:29 |
| philiKON | iow, you want to quickly write an app, start out with bobo; later, evolve by adding zcml, zpt, etc. | 19:30 |
| garrett-smith | yeah...you lost me :-P | 19:30 |
| garrett-smith | that's exactly right -- that's what the Python people want -- something they can grok in 30 seconds, write something in 5 minutes | 19:31 |
| Arnia | I prefer the jigsaw approach... I prefer to be able to pick existing components as far as possible and only code novel stuff (and the minimum of glue) | 19:31 |
| garrett-smith | in any case, the real problem (IMO) is getting the Java people to look at Z3+Python as an alternative to J2EE | 19:31 |
| bskahan | tal is not as simple as other templating languages for something like that | 19:31 |
| Arnia | bskahan: But the benefit is that it always produces well-formed XML :) | 19:32 |
| philiKON | bskahan, but interestingly so far the only that one that is XHTML compliant... ppl still don't seem to get it... | 19:32 |
| Arnia | bskahan: Plus its more declarative... I hate template languages that mix code in | 19:32 |
| * bskahan is pro tal | 19:32 | |
| philiKON | garrett-smith, yes, i've been writing several articles about z3 now. | 19:32 |
| Arnia | Hmm... would be interesting to produce a version of TAL as an extension space for XSLT | 19:33 |
| philiKON | garrett-smith, stressing the zodb's features and the component architecture will get us some j2ee ppl i think | 19:33 |
| bskahan | just commenting on the bar to entry vs. cheetah or some of the others | 19:33 |
| philiKON | bskahan, i understand | 19:33 |
| garrett-smith | it's a tough sell, given the political capital J2EE can throw around | 19:34 |
| philiKON | sadly yes | 19:34 |
| bskahan | political capital and capital capital | 19:34 |
| garrett-smith | yep | 19:34 |
| philiKON | i think an increasingly strong competitor will also be .NET | 19:35 |
| Arnia | I think that it should be made clear that what you get with Zope 3 is well-founded expandability and traceability. You can test each component, you can see how things glue together | 19:35 |
| Arnia | Yes, Edd D has already said he is looking at ASP.NET on Mono now... | 19:36 |
| philiKON | i would love to experiment more with .NET comopnents using python | 19:36 |
| philiKON | if only ironpython was good neough | 19:36 |
| philiKON | well, to be honeset i haven't really tried | 19:36 |
| Arnia | Yes... I don't think IronPython is likely to get good enough soon | 19:36 |
| philiKON | afaik, you can access all of the .NET libraries from it | 19:37 |
| Arnia | You can | 19:37 |
| garrett-smith | I've lost track of IronPython -- I didn't see the MS keynote at PyCon...I'm sure it was mentioned | 19:37 |
| Arnia | Its just moving *really* slowly | 19:37 |
| * philiKON just hates that java rip of C# | 19:37 | |
| Arnia | garrett-smith: Edd just said how disappointed he was by the latest release | 19:37 |
| philiKON | garrett-smith, there was a MS keynote? | 19:37 |
| Arnia | philiKON: IKVM? | 19:37 |
| bskahan | the keynote was very funy, short on new information | 19:37 |
| philiKON | Arnia, 0.6 was the latest (old as stone) no? | 19:38 |
| philiKON | Arnia, IKVM??? | 19:38 |
| garrett-smith | bskahan: interesting | 19:38 |
| garrett-smith | I think it was amazing that MS showed up at all | 19:38 |
| bskahan | 0.7 is a very small change from 0.6, apparently 6 of the 8 months were spent in re-education programs, or something | 19:38 |
| philiKON | that's what i'm thinking | 19:38 |
| Arnia | philiKON: A F/OSS implementation of Java on Mono | 19:39 |
| philiKON | aha | 19:39 |
| philiKON | that sounds wild | 19:39 |
| Arnia | Its quite cool... but I dislike Java (too verbose for no good reason)... the only reason I've looked at it is because I've been trying to glue a java DL reasoner (Pellet) into a Nemerle application | 19:41 |
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