IRC log of #zope3-dev for Monday, 2005-03-28

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tvonsvn having issues?01:59
hazmati get the same01:59
hazmatsvn ls svn+ssh://
hazmatsvn: Berkeley DB error while opening 'representations' table for filesystem /svn/repos/main/db:01:59
hazmatCannot allocate memory01:59
* hazmat kicks bdb01:59
tvonthats the one01:59
projekt01Write a mail to Jim, he should recover the subversion repository02:00
hazmatmoving to fsfs would stop the pain02:01
projekt01Yup, Can you just export/import the dump?02:01
projekt01Ok, cool02:02
WebMavenHi hazmat02:02
WebMavenI'm back from PyCon02:02
tvonwhee pycon02:04
hazmatmail sent02:04
hazmatpycon.. in another few days i can stop reading about what i missed on the aggregators ;-)02:05
hazmattvon, out of curosity what do you use for an rss feed reader?02:05
tvonhazmat: liferia at the moment, I'm not married to it though02:05
tvonused blam for a while.. straw on rare occasion02:05
hazmatyeah.. i've been through that same route, i'm settling down on akregator(kde) for now... blam is a little too minimalist, straw unstable, liferea is okay.02:06
WebMavenhazmat, this year everything was recorded and video'd, you'll be able to watch it all and twitch as you want to ask questions during the Q&A periods. ;-)02:06
tvonWebMaven: know when/how those will be available?02:06
* hazmat reaches for the remote control02:06
tvonI'd like to see some things I missed02:07
WebMavenI've found Straw stable, but it chews up *way* too much memory for the number of feeds I'm interested in.02:07
WebMavenSupposedly, that will be addressed by the new maintainer.02:08
tvonah, new maintainer02:08
WebMaventvon, unknown as of yet.02:08
WebMaventvon, were you there?02:11
tvonWebMaven: yeah02:12
tvonWebMaven: half awake, but present02:12
WebMavenhow about for the Sprints?02:12
tvonno, I swung by on Monday but was only there for an hour02:12
WebMavenWell, Andy Dustman and I did a two-man sprint all four days, working on a simple weblog for Zope3. It was hard going at first, but we dug in and produced something halfway functional by the end.02:14
WebMavenIt'll be released eventually.02:15
tvonah, cool02:15
WebMavenI think we'll make it GPL.02:16
tvonThey need to change venues I think... GW was a bit packed02:16
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tvonk, doing the fsfs switch myself here...02:18
tvonsubversion backend02:18
Arniatvon: Oh?02:18
tvonArnia: oh oh?02:19
* Arnia hands tvon a ring of power to covert02:19
* Arnia goes to see if there has been any fallout from the httpRange-14 issue02:20
WebMaventvon, it will be in a new venue next year.02:20
tvonWebMaven: oh? cool02:20
tvonWebMaven: tbd?02:21
WebMaventvon, but we don't know where yet.02:21
* tvon nods02:21
tvonWebMaven: still in DC?02:21
* tvon notes that people should hold con's in Baltimore, it's cheaper to stay/eat/party/whatever02:21
WebMaventvon, there are varous candidate venues, if you want to get involved it's not too early (or too late).02:21
WebMavenbaltimore is being considered.02:22
tvonoh cool02:22
ArniaI think more people should hold conferences in Newcastle... very convenient and a lovely city with another lovely city just 10 miles down the road ;)02:23
ArniaI'm biased though02:24
* tvon is too, living in Baltimore and all02:24
ArniaPlus everyone can ooh and ahh at Durham Cathedral and then at the Sage, Gateshead and the Millennium Bridge etc... lots of cool buildings around where I live :)02:27
shaprand I can meet the local unicyclists.02:27
tvonoh score02:28
tvongah crap02:28
tvonalways forget that I have wrapper scripts for svn/svnadmin/svnserve02:29
tvonwhich...are now gone of course since I upgraded the packges02:29
Arniashapr: we have loads of trampolinists for sure02:32
ArniaDo you want me to send one across to you?02:33
* tvon would like a trampolinist02:35
ArniaI can throw in a cobble from Bow Lane (the road where William the Conquerer fled the demon who terrified him when he threatened the Cathedral)02:36
ArniaBetter yet... I can throw a cobble at you02:36
ArniaHmm... I wish I could understand the Zope 3 Ubuntu packages02:39
WebMavenArnia, I use them, what's the problem?02:40
ArniaI just can't figure out how to create an instance... mkzopeinstance doesn't seem to work02:41
* Arnia shrugs02:42
WebMavenHow are you calling mkzopeinstance?02:43
shaprArnia: trampoline email sent to me always bounces.02:49
shaprI suspect he's still gagging from that evil pun.02:51
* Arnia returns04:34
ArniaJust watched All The President's Men04:34
ArniaDunno if anyone is still around :)04:34
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insanekanehello Arnia,11:07
ArniaHi, I'm about to go to sleep :)11:07
insanekanehehe ... i just woke up :)11:08
insanekaneArnia: anyway, i just said hi! :) ... not going to bother u with any questions :)11:08
ArniaI'll probably see you around later11:11
* Arnia hits slashdot with a nuke on the way out11:11
insanekaneciao Arnia,11:11
insanekaneArnia: which is ur timezone ?11:11
insanekaneArnia: BST ?11:13
insanekanecan u tell me in terms of GMT ?11:13
insanekaneArnia: ok thanks11:14
insanekaneArnia: and ur going to sleep now LOL :) i guess uve had a long night ...11:15
insanekaneArnia: good night/morning anyway11:15
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bskahanZope3 subversion is throwing a DB error15:38
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projekt01bskahan, Yup, wait till tomorrow, Jim has to recover the Subersions Berkley DB16:12
bskahanprojekt01: thanks16:15
bskahanprojekt01: I saw your name attached to the LDAP auth sub-project, how's progress (I was going to grab the source and look, but ...)16:17
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projekt01Uh, it's out of scope for the trunk. Do you use it for the 3.0X?16:20
bskahanI haven't used it yet, was starting to look at it today16:21
projekt01Hm, they are different changes in the trunk, which requieres some refactoring on ldapauth.16:21
projekt01I think there is a new project called somthing like ldappas16:22
bskahanit worked with 3.0 though?16:22
bskahanthanks, I'll look at that when svn is back up16:22
projekt01Which reflects the last changes form PAU (Plugable Authentication Utility)16:22
projekt01Take a look at PAU in
projekt01And there is a rpository something like ladppas16:23
projekt01This schould work for the trunk or after the next release of 3.116:23
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bskahancool, thank you16:23
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projekt01Perhaps Derrick is working on a LDAP integration or will migrate it after we have a 3.1 release.16:24
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insanekane <- doesnt seem to work ....17:12
philiKONouch, svn down again17:12
insanekanephiliKON: any idea how to report it and get it up again ?17:15
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insanekanehello Arnia,17:22
insanekaneArnia: any idea how to report the svn outage and get it back up again ?17:22
ArniaUhh... I think you just did ;)17:22
insanekaneArnia: ??17:22
ArniaEmail the mailing list though17:22
insanekaneArnia: ok ..17:22
insanekaneArnia: btw, are you the author of the Messagebox example of content objects ?17:24
philiKONinsanekane, write an email to jim@zope.com17:24
philiKONinsanekane, srichter is the author of the messagebox example app17:24
insanekanephiliKON: to report the svn outage ?17:25
ArniaHey philiKON. Congrats on the book release17:25
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insanekanephiliKON: done.17:27
mexiKONArnia, sorry, got disconnected from inet17:28
mexiKONArnia, didn't catch that17:28
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insanekaneArnia: in the messagebox app, the security settings are in zcml files - are these loaded into the ZODB at startup ? (or can we force it to do so?)17:28
philiKONinsanekane, security settings in zope 3 don't live in the zodfb17:29
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philiKONnothing lives in the zodb except persistent objects (objects that derive from Persistent)17:29
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SteveAphiliKON: that's not exactly right17:44
SteveAphiliKON: object's that do not derive from Persistent also live in the ZODB if they are picklable, and if they are an attribute of another persistent object17:44
insanekaneSteveA: are the permissions also stored in the ZODB ? or are they maintained as zcml files ?17:46
SteveAwhich permissions?  in general, you declare what permissions are required to access the attributes of objects in zcml.17:47
SteveAi don't know about the fancy persistent module stuff17:47
insanekaneSteveA: yes, but after we declare them in zcml, are they also available in the ZODB ?17:47
insanekaneoh ok17:47
SteveAeither something is in the zodb or it is not.17:47
SteveAit doesn't make sense to say "available to the ZODB"17:48
insanekaneSteveA: ok sorry ... wrong words to use ... what im asking is, if i have another client connecting to the same ZODB, then can I access the permissions via my client ?17:48
insanekaneSteveA: access = view + update17:48
SteveApermissions, defined in zcml, are set for that particular python process17:49
insanekaneok ...17:49
SteveAthis is interesting, because you could conceivably run two clients from the same ZODB (via ZEO) which use different permissions.17:49
insanekaneok, the reason im asking is this: if the permissions,roles,users etc (ie, ACL) is in the ZODB, then an extension of ZEO could apply then right ?17:50
insanekaneerr ..17:51
insanekanean extension of ZEO could apply them right ?17:51
efgeinsanekane: method/attribute protections are expressed in ZCML and not stored in the ZODB, but users/roles *can* be stored in the ZODB if you use an authentication service designed for it17:54
insanekaneefge: is there any way to get the entire permissions into the ZODB ?17:55
insanekaneefge: the permissions, user database, ACL, user-role mapping ... basically the whole lot ...17:56
insanekaneefge: is it possible ?17:56
efgeinsanekane: it's theoretically possible of course, but nobody's written it and nobody has plans17:57
efgetoday what's not in the ZODB is the protection of the code, and I don't see why it would live anywhere else than in the filesystem, next to the code17:57
efgeinsanekane: user database, user-role mapping etc. can already live in ZODB17:57
efgeand user-permission and permission-role mappings too17:58
insanekanethe protection of the code ? what do u mean by that ?17:58
efgeinsanekane: do you know zope 2 ?17:58
SteveAinsanekane: there's a document you should read about the zope3 security system17:58
insanekaneefge: no :) thankfully, im starting fresh with zope317:58
insanekaneSteveA: where is that ?17:59
efgeinsanekane: well when you say method "getSomething" can only be accessed by permission "DoSomething", that's protection of the code17:59
insanekaneSteveA: that doesnt contain the information im looking for: basically, what i need is a client (written in PyQt) to connect to the same Zeo that is being used by a Zope server, and be able to modify/view the permissions on objects. is this possible ?18:04
SteveAwhy do you want to modify permissions on objects?18:05
insanekaneSteveA: ie, the only API i can use the Zeo ClientStorage API ..18:05
SteveAi can understand modifying the the authorization policy for particular objects18:05
SteveAbut not modifying the permissions18:05
insanekaneSteveA: ok, by permissions i mean, the mapping between users (principals) and the permissions they are given on specific objects ... can I change that ?18:06
insanekanethe permissions they are granted18:07
insanekanecan I grant them more permissions, and/or deny them permissions via a PyQt client, that can only use ZODB ?18:07
insanekanealso, create/remove users, grant them roles etc etc ..18:08
insanekanethats what i mean ... am I using the wrong terminology for all this ?18:08
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efgeinsanekane: yes you can do that18:11
efgeI couldn't give you a pointer in the code though18:11
insanekanewhew thanks :)18:11
SteveAinsanekane: that's what decides "authorization", not "permissions"18:12
SteveAinsanekane: the most straightforward way to do this is to define your own authorization policy, and use this instead of the default one18:12
SteveAinsanekane: and make it get its information from the zodb.18:12
insanekaneSteveA: oho .. so the default zopesecuritypolicy doesnt store the authorizations in the zodb ?18:13
insanekaneok, i guess not18:13
insanekaneSteveA, efge, thanks for your help :)18:14
SteveAthe default policy uses roles and stuff like that18:15
insanekaneaah great :) svn is back18:15
insanekaneSteveA: yeah, i really would like to use that via zodb18:15
SteveAon the large system i work on, we use a totally different policy that gets adapters and asks the adapter if the action is allowed.18:15
SteveAthese adapters typically query a relational database.18:15
insanekane(i dont want to create my own security policy)18:16
insanekaneSteveA: so basically, the rdbms stores the mapping between principals and what permissions they have been granted/denied ?18:16
efgeinsanekane: btw don't confuse roles and permissions18:17
insanekaneefge: yeah sorry :)18:18
SteveAinsanekane: the database has a lot of information in it.  that information is queried to determine whether the logged-in user has the permission requested on the object in question.18:18
SteveAinsanekane: it is more like making queries in the data than looking up a particular table of principals and permissions.18:19
insanekaneSteveA: yes i get it18:19
insanekanea user can also temporarily get permissions on a specific instance with your advanced method :)18:19
SteveAthis is easiest if you write your own authorization system. it isn't hard to do.18:20
SteveAthen, you have full control over the how permissions are granted to principals.18:20
insanekaneSteveA: actually, i want to use the existing Role's based system, but i just need the data to be in the zodb so i can modify it without Zope (or most of it)18:22
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philiKONinsanekane, i suggest you read a book on zope 3, e.g. http://worldcookery.com19:03
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garrett-smithphiliKON: saw your book at PyCon -- looks sweeeet!19:12
garrett-smithso how can I get it in the US?19:13
philiKONi wish i could tell you19:13
philiKONi wish they would sell the damn thing in america19:13
philiKONi have no clue why they don't so far19:13
ArniaphiliKON: Is it available on
philiKONgarrett-smith, have you tried ordering thru a local book store?19:13
philiKONArnia, yes, check
bskahanthe hot market for smuggled zope books19:14
garrett-smithphiliKON: I haven't tried that19:17
philiKONgarrett-smith, right now i think that'd be the best option19:18
philiKONsicne amazon don't sell it, barnes & noble online neither and springer NY online sez 3-4 weeks delivery time19:19
* Arnia adds the book to his shopping cart19:19
philiKONgarrett-smith, if you succeed in either way, please let me know so i can let other people in the U.S. know19:20
garrett-smithwill do19:20
garrett-smithyou gotta yell at your publisher/distributor man19:20
philiKONbuh-lieve me i will19:20
garrett-smithlooks really good though, seriously19:21
garrett-smithi think people are really going to like it19:21
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philiKONi'm glad you like it19:21
philiKONi hope it'll catch on a little bit and make zope 3 more popular19:22
philiKONalso, i'd like to be at least somewhat successful so i have a good standing with the publisher for further editions19:22
garrett-smithI got some good feedback at PyCon19:22
garrett-smithon Zope3 in general19:22
philiKONthe book covers x3.0 and x3.1 will bring some very serious improvements19:22
philiKONthat's great19:22
garrett-smithI think people are a little intimidated by Zope3's architectural rigour19:23
philiKONnot anymore i think19:23
philiKONthe scaregoat is zcml19:23
garrett-smithyes, and the preception that everything has to go through an interface19:24
philiKONinterfaces and zcml19:24
ArniaI don't see that as a bad thing for enterprise apps though...19:24
ArniaIt makes everything traceable19:24
garrett-smithno, but that's a different community -- the J2EE crowd19:25
philiKONand z3 (at least righ tnow) doesn't want to be a scripter paltform that z2 always pretended it as19:25
bskahaninterfaces don't seem to bother people so much after they see examples19:25
philiKONright, the target community has changed towards more einterprise apps19:25
philiKONbskahan, yep, after all, that's still python code19:25
garrett-smithi think we should copy some stuff from ruby on rails (not too familiar with it) -- people seem to like it's ease of use19:26
philiKONpythonistas are always very hesitant to write anything else than python19:26
philiKONgarrett-smith, ruby has a very different approach though19:26
garrett-smiththe simplification of ZCML with 'adapts' etc will help a ton19:26
philiKONgarrett-smith, in z3, everything is explicit19:26
philiKONin rails, everything is glued together magically19:26
garrett-smithI'm not saying copy *everything* :-)19:26
philiKON"name your class this way, name methods this way, and it will just work"19:26
ArniaI prefer explicitness personally :)19:26
garrett-smithi agree19:27
philiKONgarrett-smith,  :)19:27
garrett-smithi'm with you guys19:27
philiKONi want to look more at rails19:27
garrett-smithi'm just relaying what i heard at PyCon, that's all19:27
philiKONand ruby in general19:27
philiKONi think what jim wante dto do with reviving bobo19:27
philiKONiow, a very simple python publishing framework19:28
philiKONcould lower the bar for some pythonistas19:28
philiKONno zcml, fo rexample19:28
garrett-smiththat's right19:28
garrett-smithI think there's a need for that in the Python ecology19:28
philiKONyes, and maybe in the z shaped learning curve19:29
philiKONas a book author, i'm always looking at the didactic aspect now :)19:29
philiKONiow, you want to quickly write an app, start out with bobo; later, evolve by adding zcml, zpt, etc.19:30 lost me :-P19:30
garrett-smiththat's exactly right -- that's what the Python people want -- something they can grok in 30 seconds, write something in 5 minutes19:31
ArniaI prefer the jigsaw approach... I prefer to be able to pick existing components as far as possible and only code novel stuff (and the minimum of glue)19:31
garrett-smithin any case, the real problem (IMO) is getting the Java people to look at Z3+Python as an alternative to J2EE19:31
bskahantal is not as simple as other templating languages for something like that19:31
Arniabskahan: But the benefit is that it always produces well-formed XML :)19:32
philiKONbskahan, but interestingly so far the only that one that is XHTML compliant... ppl still don't seem to get it...19:32
Arniabskahan: Plus its more declarative... I hate template languages that mix code in19:32
* bskahan is pro tal19:32
philiKONgarrett-smith, yes, i've been writing several articles about z3 now.19:32
ArniaHmm... would be interesting to produce a version of TAL as an extension space for XSLT19:33
philiKONgarrett-smith, stressing the zodb's features and the component architecture will get us some j2ee ppl i think19:33
bskahanjust commenting on the bar to entry vs. cheetah or some of the others19:33
philiKONbskahan, i understand19:33
garrett-smithit's a tough sell, given the political capital J2EE can throw around19:34
philiKONsadly yes19:34
bskahanpolitical capital and capital capital19:34
philiKONi think an increasingly strong competitor will also be .NET19:35
ArniaI think that it should be made clear that what you get with Zope 3 is well-founded expandability and traceability. You can test each component, you can see how things glue together19:35
ArniaYes, Edd D has already said he is looking at ASP.NET on Mono now...19:36
philiKONi would love to experiment more with .NET comopnents using python19:36
philiKONif only ironpython was good neough19:36
philiKONwell, to be honeset i haven't really tried19:36
ArniaYes... I don't think IronPython is likely to get good enough soon19:36
philiKONafaik, you can access all of the .NET libraries from it19:37
ArniaYou can19:37
garrett-smithI've lost track of IronPython -- I didn't see the MS keynote at PyCon...I'm sure it was mentioned19:37
ArniaIts just moving *really* slowly19:37
* philiKON just hates that java rip of C#19:37
Arniagarrett-smith: Edd just said how disappointed he was by the latest release19:37
philiKONgarrett-smith, there was a MS keynote?19:37
ArniaphiliKON: IKVM?19:37
bskahanthe keynote was very funy, short on new information19:37
philiKONArnia, 0.6 was the latest (old as stone) no?19:38
philiKONArnia, IKVM???19:38
garrett-smithbskahan: interesting19:38
garrett-smithI think it was amazing that MS showed up at all19:38
bskahan0.7 is a very small change from 0.6, apparently 6 of the 8 months were spent in re-education programs, or something19:38
philiKONthat's what i'm thinking19:38
ArniaphiliKON: A F/OSS implementation of Java on Mono19:39
philiKONthat sounds wild19:39
ArniaIts quite cool... but I dislike Java (too verbose for no good reason)... the only reason I've looked at it is because I've been trying to glue a java DL reasoner (Pellet) into a Nemerle application19:41
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