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| * andrew_m is away: cycling | 16:00 | |
| * shapr is away: unicycling! | 16:00 | |
| Arnia | shapr: Juggle lions at the same time (but only in Kenya) | 16:02 |
|---|---|---|
| shapr | Kenya is a bit far. | 16:03 |
| shapr | Hey Arnia, have you seen House? | 16:03 |
| shapr | GHC RTS on the bare metal with tcp/ip stack! | 16:03 |
| Arnia | ! | 16:03 |
| Arnia | Sounds very cool | 16:04 |
| shapr | it is quite nifty. | 16:04 |
| Arnia | So its a haskell kernel? | 16:04 |
| shapr | I want to mix QuickCheck and that TCP/IP stack to see if I can find some really interesting network bugs. | 16:04 |
| shapr | http://www.cse.ogi.edu/~hallgren/House/ | 16:05 |
| shapr | Sort of, it's the GHC RTS. | 16:05 |
| Arnia | Yay :) | 16:06 |
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| insanekane | hi, is it possible in the MessageBoard example (from the Content Object section in the Zope Book), to store the data on one ZODB Storage, and the views on a seperate ZODB Storage ? | 17:50 |
| efge | store the views ? what do you mean ? | 17:52 |
| insanekane | efge: well, im not entirely sure about this ... but im talking abt the DTML views/editors etc ... | 17:52 |
| insanekane | efge: basically, i want access to the "data" objects/components to a PyQt GUI application using the ZEO ClientStorage ... just the data, not the DTML views | 17:53 |
| insanekane | efge: in the case of Messageboard, i want access to the messages, etc but not the html-based GUI .... as i understand it, both the data and the view is stored in the same Storage ? | 17:54 |
| insanekane | efge: currently, when i use a GUI to access the database, i need to have Zope in my python path, otherwise i may not be able to read the database ... so i want to reduce this dependence to just ZODB for my PyQt client | 17:56 |
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| Arnia | You want to access the database directly? You could use a RESTful or XML-RPC view instead | 18:10 |
| insanekane | Arnia: no, my database is complex, i want to use ZODBs transperancy | 18:10 |
| Arnia | Are you using Zope3 or just the ZODB? | 18:11 |
| insanekane | Arnia: both | 18:11 |
| Arnia | Well, views in Zope3 are defined on the file-system (unless you're doing TTW development, which I'm not a big fan of...) | 18:12 |
| insanekane | Arnia: oh right ... | 18:13 |
| insanekane | Arnia: so the db that Zope3 uses ... it wont contain any DTML ? | 18:13 |
| insanekane | Arnia: it, only "data" objects ? | 18:14 |
| insanekane | ie | 18:14 |
| Arnia | Well... it can also include utilities and the like... but its all instance data | 18:14 |
| insanekane | Arnia: basically, when i connect my PyQt app, via ClientStorage to a Zeo server (which the Zope3 uses), then I can get away with my client not having Zope3 installed (atleast not in full) ? | 18:15 |
| Arnia | Hmm... you can, but since much of Z3 is now just libraries for dealing with a component architecture and tools using a component architecture I'm not sure its that big a deal. Pick those libraries you use and their dependents | 18:16 |
| insanekane | Arnia: what abt Access control ? is it also implemented in this way ? | 18:17 |
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| insanekane | Arnia: Zope3 is 28 MB ... | 18:17 |
| insanekane | Arnia: i dont need a 28MB client app :) | 18:17 |
| Arnia | The full Z3 distro is 28 Mb, you won't need all of it though | 18:18 |
| insanekane | Arnia: aha ok .. | 18:18 |
| Arnia | Access control is handled through zope.security and zope.app.security I believe | 18:18 |
| insanekane | Arnia: has there been any work done related to Zeo StorageServer, to allow authentication/authorization information to be used to restrict clients of ZEO ? | 18:19 |
| insanekane | Arnia: the acl in Zope ie .. | 18:19 |
| Arnia | I'm not aware of any work on ZEO with Zope3 | 18:19 |
| Arnia | Zope3 is very very different | 18:19 |
| insanekane | so ... Zope3 doesnt use ZODB ?? | 18:20 |
| insanekane | no, thats not possible ... it must use it ... sorry | 18:20 |
| Arnia | Sorry, those two lines were responding to different things | 18:20 |
| insanekane | oh | 18:21 |
| insanekane | Arnia: basically, i want to use PyQt clients, to view/edit data in the ZODB (via ZEO), and also use Zope3 views to view and edit this data ... | 18:21 |
| Arnia | What I was saying was that Zope3's security model is different... more modular. I'm just not aware of whether that has an impact on any security mechanisms in ZEO | 18:22 |
| Arnia | Z3 uses the ZODB of course, but its not so much a be-all and end-all as it was in Z2 | 18:22 |
| insanekane | oho ... so there is no connection between them > | 18:22 |
| insanekane | at all ? | 18:22 |
| insanekane | ok .. | 18:22 |
| insanekane | so, there is no connection between security in ZEO and security in ZODB at all ? | 18:22 |
| Arnia | I don't know. I'm not that well-versed. I do know that Zope3 makes a clear difference between security mechanisms and security policy | 18:23 |
| insanekane | ok .. | 18:23 |
| Arnia | If you want to go delving... zope.security, zope.app.security and zope.app.securitypolicy are the core of the security mechanisms | 18:23 |
| insanekane | Arnia: so what do you think would be a good way, to modify StorageServer to use the Zope3 security system to restrict clients ? | 18:23 |
| insanekane | hehe ok :) | 18:23 |
| insanekane | thanks .. i will look them up :) | 18:24 |
| Arnia | insanekane: I have to say I don't like the idea of having the database so exposed as it seems to be in your design. I like protecting my data sinks with immigration and customs and excise agents ;) | 18:25 |
| Arnia | But that's a design choice :) | 18:25 |
| insanekane | Arnia: well, thats the point .. | 18:26 |
| insanekane | Arnia: currently, ZEO security is very weak .. | 18:26 |
| Arnia | Use Zope3's power then :) | 18:26 |
| insanekane | and im looking for ways to use the Zope3 security system to restrict clients but also to do so transperantly, to a ZODB client | 18:26 |
| insanekane | Arnia: well, thats what i need to do apparently | 18:27 |
| insanekane | Arnia: to use Zope3's power .. although i only now have a clue thanks to you ;) | 18:27 |
| Arnia | What does your application do? | 18:27 |
| insanekane | well, my application is irrelavant | 18:27 |
| insanekane | what i need to accomplish is to have PyQt as a client, instead of the webbrowser | 18:28 |
| insanekane | ie, an application in PyQt | 18:28 |
| insanekane | but ZEO security is not tied into Zope ... | 18:28 |
| insanekane | so i cannot reuse the wonderful security system Zope3 uses | 18:29 |
| Arnia | I wouldn't directly access the database personally... seems badly coupled | 18:29 |
| insanekane | why ? Zope should only handle the webbrowser view | 18:29 |
| Arnia | The database has no idea as to the meaning of the objects (expressed by component architecture interfaces) | 18:29 |
| Arnia | Zope3 is *not* a web-app server | 18:29 |
| Arnia | Well it is, but that's not its sole aim | 18:30 |
| insanekane | yes i noticed :) | 18:30 |
| Arnia | Its a component architecture... its a means of developing modular applications | 18:30 |
| Arnia | The web app server is just a nice demonstration | 18:30 |
| Arnia | The ZODB is just one possible 'storage' component for the whole system :) | 18:32 |
| insanekane | Arnia: understood ... and i will be using (a part of) Zope3 on the client .. | 18:32 |
| insanekane | but certainly not all of it | 18:32 |
| insanekane | second thing: i do need to use ZODB - to synchronise my clients easily | 18:32 |
| Arnia | Aha... that changes things. What you really want is a small Z3 stack on each client then | 18:33 |
| insanekane | third thing: ZEO security gives complete access to everyone if they get in with a username/password ... to remove it, we have to use the data in the objects themselves, to restrict client access | 18:33 |
| insanekane | to remove it = to change that | 18:33 |
| insanekane | Arnia: no, not just running Zope3 on client ... but also, we have to implement security at the server | 18:34 |
| insanekane | the server being ZEO | 18:34 |
| Arnia | What do you mean 'security at the server' what sort of security? | 18:34 |
| insanekane | well, ZEO+Z3 .. a small part of Z3 | 18:34 |
| insanekane | Arnia: well, in Zope3, they use ACLs to restrict client access ... | 18:34 |
| insanekane | why cant ZEO reuse the ACLs (that it itself stores), to restrict other types of clients, other than the Zope3 itself (say for eg, a pyQt client) | 18:35 |
| insanekane | obviosly, ZEO must be extended to recognize the extra info on each object ... | 18:36 |
| Arnia | ZEO would have to become part of the component architecture | 18:36 |
| insanekane | yes | 18:36 |
| Arnia | (or understand it) | 18:36 |
| insanekane | well, sort of | 18:36 |
| insanekane | some part of it yes | 18:36 |
| insanekane | not ZEO itself | 18:36 |
| insanekane | but the ClientStorage protocol must understand it | 18:36 |
| Arnia | The problem is, this seems like an edge case to me. I'm not sure how many people will use ZEO to perform end-user sync :) | 18:37 |
| insanekane | well, whats the problem with using ZEO like that ? | 18:37 |
| insanekane | Arnia: wont it be able to handle that ? | 18:38 |
| insanekane | Arnia: isnt that the point of Zeo being scalable and all that ? | 18:39 |
| Arnia | Well, I'm not sure if ZEO's security model is that strong to deal with untrustworthy clients. Remember, its usually used for replication of a database for load-balancing. | 18:40 |
| Arnia | It doesn't have any real knowledge of what's being replicated | 18:40 |
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| Arnia | It could be extended to have that ability I guess, but if you want it urgently I have a feeling you'd have to do it yourself | 18:41 |
| insanekane | Arnia: yes i agree with that :) | 18:43 |
| Arnia | Hmm... if you want 'transparent' access to objects between Zope3 and python, use XML-RPC views in Z3 to proxy the objects across the internet (with full Z3 security) | 18:46 |
| Arnia | You could probably cache the object proxies too | 18:47 |
| Arnia | That's probably easier than unpicking ZEO :) | 18:47 |
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| insanekane | Arnia: but i still have to write marshalling/unmarshalling code right ... | 18:53 |
| insanekane | i cant do that ... the number of classes i need is large | 18:54 |
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| Arnia | insanekane: I think there is a python library which handles that | 18:56 |
| insanekane | Arnia: what do you mean ? | 18:59 |
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| insanekane | Arnia: you mean xmlrpclib ? | 18:59 |
| insanekane | Arnia: it generates python proxies for objects ? | 19:00 |
| insanekane | Arnia: do you remember the name of such a library ? | 19:01 |
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| Arnia | insanekane: One moment... just searching | 19:12 |
| Arnia | xmlrpclib allows calling methods on remote objects (such as those defined by an xmlrpc:view in Z3)... do you need local caching of the objects as well? If so, I'd probably use interfaces to (as far as possible) automatically create the proxies | 19:15 |
| insanekane | Arnia: yes i need local caching as well | 20:07 |
| insanekane | Arnia: but will it automatically update when the instances are changed at the client/server ? | 20:07 |
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| Arnia | Hmm... maybe ZEO is your best bet... but you'll probably have to fiddle :) | 20:13 |
| insanekane | Arnia: i guessed as much .. | 20:13 |
| insanekane | Arnia: does Zope use the __roles__ in each object to denote the acl ? | 20:13 |
| insanekane | err Zop3 | 20:13 |
| insanekane | Zope3 | 20:13 |
| Arnia | Err... Zope3 doesn't have any notion of roles | 20:17 |
| insanekane | i mean in the default securitypolicy .. | 20:18 |
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| insanekane | Arnia: is there some registry mapping roles/users to permissions ? | 20:18 |
| Arnia | IPrinicipalRoleMap I think... haven't used it yet though | 20:19 |
| Arnia | But I wouldn't rely on a single security policy really... you may wish to change it | 20:19 |
| insanekane | you mean, not use the concept of Roles ? | 20:20 |
| insanekane | but using Roles makes things easier right ? | 20:20 |
| Arnia | It makes it easier for the sysadmin | 20:21 |
| Arnia | The actually code should only be thinking in terms of permissions | 20:21 |
| insanekane | Arnia: ah yes, of course :) | 20:24 |
| * Arnia forces himself to stop repeatedly watching the "Movie Trailer" hitch-hiker's guide trailer | 20:35 | |
| insanekane | hmm | 20:36 |
| Arnia | I've watched it four times in the past quarter of an hour | 20:37 |
| Arnia | This is becoming a bad habit :) | 20:37 |
| insanekane | hmm | 20:37 |
| insanekane | :) | 20:37 |
| Arnia | Hey, I've long been an h2g2 fan... I've been waiting for the next incarnation for ages | 20:38 |
| insanekane | hehe :) ive only read the book | 20:38 |
| insanekane | and i liked it a lot | 20:39 |
| Arnia | The great thing about h2g2 is that every incarnation is completely different... deliberately so :) | 20:40 |
| insanekane | incarnation ?? | 20:40 |
| insanekane | ur talking abt hitchikers guide to the galaxy right ? | 20:41 |
| Arnia | Yes | 20:41 |
| insanekane | right ... | 20:41 |
| Arnia | Each version is very different... and that's good. Means more new material in each :) | 20:41 |
| insanekane | oho | 20:41 |
| Arnia | Well, the radio series (the first version of the guide) and the TV series were similar I suppose (even much of the same cast) | 20:42 |
| insanekane | hmm .. | 20:44 |
| insanekane | and the book was totally different ?> | 20:44 |
| Arnia | Same feel, same style, same humour, same starting point... the plot is pretty similar, but there are differences | 20:45 |
| Arnia | But then the plot isn't really the point of h2g2 :) | 20:45 |
| insanekane | indeed :) | 20:46 |
| insanekane | Arnia: would you say that Zope3 is production-grade ? | 20:46 |
| insanekane | as of 3.0.0 | 20:46 |
| Arnia | Hmm... yes, I would say its suitable for deployment in and of itself. You just have to learn the concepts properly so you produce a production grade solution yourself :) | 20:47 |
| insanekane | hmm ok | 20:48 |
| Arnia | But yes... the strong focus on testing (unit and functional) and the powerful abstractions afforded by the component architecture definitely make Z3 production-grade to me | 20:50 |
| insanekane | k | 20:52 |
| Arnia | But definitely make maximum use of the testing frameworks in Z3 | 20:53 |
| insanekane | ok | 20:54 |
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| wfamy | hi | 21:32 |
| wfamy | I try to install the psycopgda under zope3 instance fro cvn but i do not see it under the zmi. is it the right channel? | 21:35 |
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| wfamy | see you | 22:07 |
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