IRC log of #zope3-dev for Friday, 2005-07-15

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tim2pdoes anyone here successfully use adapters inheriting from Implicit in zope 2 tamplate code?  (sorry if this is slightly off-topic)12:31
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divei will have to port a pure zope 2.6.1 standard folder based website (1000+ pt dtml py zsql) to something newer. because of license arguments i'm thinking about zope+cmf (instead of plone). then again i'm also thinking about zope3. is zope3 'trustworthy' in respect of stability and 'staying in market'?13:43
srichterdive: I think in many respects Zope 3 is more stable than Zope2. We have a strong commitment to API stability as well.13:51
srichterdive: it will definitely stay in the market. A lot of people in the community have expressed their support; also, there are several sites in production already or will be in production soon13:53
srichternote however, that Zope 3 is aimed at the Python developer, not the scripter; iow, we do not support TTW development13:53
divesrichter: what is a scripter?14:04
divewhere can i download a version of ZSQLMethods? the tarball on is broken.14:07
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srichterdive: a scripter is a person that develops scripts TTW to develop a Web site14:42
srichterNone of Zope 2's products will work14:43
srichterthough Zope 3 ships with a ZSQL Script object, so I would not suggest using it14:44
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srichteryou should develop Python packages instead14:44
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diveyes. thank you. are there any voices against zope3?15:21
srichterthere is always skepticism about a new technology, but we have not heard of anyone hating it yet15:26
srichtereveryone who digs into it eventually likes it a lot15:26
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divethere is skepticism from the management. actually taking you as reference is quite impossible for you wrote the book.15:44
srichteras I said there is alsways some skepticism with a new technology15:47
srichterhowever, Zope Corps. commitment should be an indication that the framework is a good one15:47
srichteralso look at the recent Z3ECM efforts15:48
diveare there any middle to large scale sites already running on zope3?15:48
srichterboth, Nuxeo and Infrae, already bet on Zope 3 for their next versions of their prodcuts15:49
srichterdive: yeah, there are some sites that have been developed on early versions of Zope 315:49
srichterZope Corp. is pretty close to roll one out15:50
srichteralso, SchoolTool and Ubuntu use Zope 315:50
divecan you 'prognose'  jim fulton and paul everitt s opinion on relying on zope3 to start a larger scale website at this point of time?15:52
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srichterdive: Jim is totally behind it; he is leading the development of their current Z3 project, which is quiet large as I understand15:55
srichterPaul is not really using Zope 3 for developing, so I do not know what he would have to say; however, he is involved in the Z3ECM project.15:55
divethank you for the info. so first thing would be to install, get to know it better, check out the features (eg archgenxml) and make a test product. certainly i'll consult your book though :-)16:02
srichternote that archgenxml is a Zope 2 product16:03
srichterit will nto work with Zope 316:03
diveoh, but it will be working with zope 3? - thats what i heard16:07
srichterok, I did not know that; you have to ask those developers16:15
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srichteranyone here who knows how to convert a UTC-based time to another timezone?20:39
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mgedminassuming datetimeobject has timezone information20:41
srichterok, what if it does not?20:42
mgedmin(e.g. datetime.datetime.utcnow() returns objects without tz info)20:42
srichterwill it assume UTC?20:42
mgedminI don't think so20:42
mgedminyou can do datetimeobject.replace(tzinfo=UTC).astimezone(otherzone)20:42
srichtercool, that's what I need20:42
mgedminwrite a unit test, 'cause I'm not 100% that will work ;)20:43
srichterI guess the zope.i18n date/time parser should automatically add UTC, if no timezone was specified20:43
srichteryes, I am doing this in an interactive session; it's to answer a post20:43
mgedminif I enter a time in a random web form, I'm not so sure assuming I entered it in UTC is a very good idea20:44
mgedmin"refuse the temptation to guess"20:44
srichteryeah, you are right20:44
srichterI just thought the same20:45
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GaryPostersrichter and mgedmin: jim just told me I might want to pay attention ;-)20:48
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srichteroh, we were just briefly discussing how to best handle date/times20:48
GaryPosterHere's my plan for our apps in that regard, fwiw:20:48
srichterwith respect to storage and eventual formatting20:48
srichterGaryPoster: keep going...20:49
GaryPosterso we already agree on tz-aware storage.  My intent is to always expect an adapter of request to tzinfo.20:49
GaryPosterwe plan to have our apps allow specifying tz in the zope 3 preferences stuff20:49
GaryPosterso a logged-in user would have a default timezone20:50
GaryPosterThis would affect collected timezone-less times from our forms,20:50
GaryPosterand affect the astimezone for the display of the stored utc datetimes.20:50
GaryPosterWe're stubbing this for our current apps, since it hasn't been high-priority enough20:51
GaryPosterBut when we get around to it should be easy enough20:51
GaryPosterthe question of unauthenticated users is a bit harder.  Our current app doesn't have to worry about them.20:51
srichterthe default timezone should be: zope.locale.dates.timezones.keys()[0] if available20:52
GaryPosterRight--I looked at that code a while back20:52
GaryPosterYeah, that would be the fallback.  I forget: do some user agents include timezone in requests?20:52
srichterI don't think so20:53
GaryPosterYeah, that's my memory too.  I rmember being disappointed. ;-)20:53
srichterbecause the locale should be really responsible for this sort of thing20:53
GaryPosterRight--OK for a single-timezone locale, but not so much for a multi-timezone locale20:54
srichterbasically, there should be a separate locale for each timezone, but unfortunately, the current data we have does not do this all the time :-(20:54
GaryPosterRight, that's what I saw20:54
srichterwell, then it should be en_US_East20:54
srichteren_US_Central, en_US_Mountain, en_US_West20:54
GaryPosterright, you can't choose20:55
srichtermaybe a newer version of the data fixes this problem20:55
srichterAhh, I think how they solve it is that they list all possible timezones in en_US20:55
GaryPostermaybe.  I'm pessimistic about it though, must admit.20:55
srichterwhich gives you a decent guess20:55
srichterbut in general your adapter is a good idea20:56
GaryPosterDoesn't seem good enough for us, though: we want one.  Assuming that a guy in the US is in Eastern isn't reasonable.  Assuming a guy in Russia is in the west of the country might be better.20:56
srichtersince everyone can implement their own policy this way20:56
GaryPosterRight, at least then the decision can be per-installation.  Right.20:56
srichternote that this is just a default guess20:57
srichterI think having a preference for this is in general a good idea20:57
GaryPosterSo that's all I have here.  That's my plan. I'd love to have it a Zope 3 decision too.20:58
srichterif you are really worried about time zones in an app, you should also always display the timezone as well to avoid any confusion20:58
GaryPosterYes, true.20:58
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GaryPosterJim is cool with all this, but he doesn't have a strong opinion AFAIK.21:00
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srichterso once, 3.1 is out of the door, feel free to add this to the trunk21:00
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GaryPosterok, cool.21:01
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GaryPostersrichter: I notice you didn't mention the tiks date widget to Alen Stanisic.  I haven't checked it out yet, but I assume it is yet another usage of the mishoo calendar widget.  Are you familiar with that tiks widget?21:09
srichterno, I am not familiar with the Tiks widget; that's the reason I did not mention it21:09
srichterGaryPoster: Have you looked at it?21:10
srichterDidn't you guys develop an advanced widget as well?21:10
srichterBTW, does formlib handle the problem with putting one Javascript tag in for all fields on a page?21:11
GaryPosterOK.  ...Roger is usually projekt01, right?  No, not yet.  I saw it when I started to look at the FCK rich text field in tiks.  Haven't gotten to that yet either. :-/21:11
srichteryeah, roger is projekt0121:11
GaryPosterWe have mishoo's widget.  Pretty basic.  One of several things in our bag of things to open source RSN.21:12
srichterI hope so! :-)21:13
GaryPosterFor the javascript bit, something also we plan to open source (have gotten approval) is a "snippet library".  It is supposed to help with this sort of thing.  The problem there is that it really is not much other than a stub with a lot of ambition.21:13
GaryPosterWell, that's selling it a bit short, but we don't think it will be really compelling until we go a bit farther with it.21:14
srichterI see21:15
srichterI am still not convinced of all the portlet and pagelet stuff either21:15
srichterI would like an easier more Pythonic approach to non-linear page construction21:15
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GaryPosterThe idea is that you register code with a name, then say "I want the code with this name in this library".  For instance, you might define a form library.  Then your form templates are responsible for saying "include the form library".  The widget packages  are responsible for saying "include me in the form library".  There's bit more too it, but that's the gist.  For CSS also.  Want to incorporate Peter Bengston (sp) 's 'slimmer' also.21:17
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srichtersounds liek a good design21:18
tavoooh, missed the earlier portions of what you were saying GaryPoster21:19
* tav looks in the logs21:19
GaryPosternon-linear page construction: we have portlet's but they are more for, like, secretaries and executives, not site designers: you say "I want to have a stock ticker on my page" not "Everyone should see a stock ticker here".  We're trying to figure out what the integration point should be.21:19
GaryPosterI think the selling point for non-linear page construction like CPS is for companies/developers that farm out their customization.  Seems very compelling to me for that use case.21:20
srichterI think the work by the Z3ECM guys looks very cool?21:20
srichterhave you seen the demos?21:21
srichtertheir drag and drop functionality is very impressive21:21
tavsrichter: urls ?21:21
GaryPosterYeah, folks around here are checking it out as they can, but I haven't been one of them.  No, didn't even know of their existence--oh , you mean the CPS demos?  Yes, that is cool.21:21
GaryPosterThat actually is an application of Shane's pdlib from way back when, interestingly enough21:22
GaryPoster(just the draggy droppy part, I mean)21:22
srichtertav: I don't have URLs. You have to look throught the Z3ECM mailing list archives21:22
srichteryeah, the cpsskin stuff21:23
srichterI see21:23
GaryPosterAnother thing I want to propose is that Z3ECM/Zope 3 adopt either the Ruby-on-Rails Prototype Ajax and Effects stuff and/or Bob Ippolito's upcoming MochiKit (which supposedly actually has docs, as opposed to Prototype).  I think sexy stuff like that is going to be more and more important, for better or worse.21:24
srichterthis is being discussed on the Z3ECM list right now21:26
srichtersome people looked at various Ajax libs to see which one is useful in which situation.21:26
GaryPosterhm.  I sure hope we don't build another wheel, at least.21:28
tavta srichter21:28
GaryPostertav: wasn't ignoring you, but you said you were gonna look in the logs :-)21:29
srichterGaryPoster: I think the Z3ECM guys need some serious direction; I have no clue what they are up to or trying to do :-)21:30
GaryPostersrichter: Rightly or wrongly, that has been my impression from far away, as well.  Dunno.21:32
tavGaryPoster: oh, didn't think i was being ignored -- i had assumed you were talking about decentralised "product/package" distribution and so got excited, but it turned out that you were discussing a wholly different matter21:32
GaryPoster:-) ok, cool.21:33
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benji_yorktav: when you say "decentralised "product/package" distribution" are you talking about something like Eggs?21:37
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_projekt01GaryPoster, the tiks datetime widget is the mishoo calender22:22
srichteroh, you are here :-)22:22
srichterhiding with an _22:22
_projekt01Yeh, just back22:23
_projekt01how do I change my nick?22:23
srichterwith nick22:24
GaryPostercool.  I really want to check out your FCK editor integration.  I'm not familiar with the editor--do end users tend to like it?  Any gotchas?  Is the spell check just the usual aspell integration?  nick: try "/nick projekt01"22:24
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GaryPosterI went to the demo, and other than taking a long time to load :-) it was cool.22:24
GaryPoster(the fck demo I mean)22:25
projekt01GaryPoster, the FCK editor is fully integrated and working22:25
projekt01We also provide a interface to a filemanager for upload images22:25
GaryPostercool.  I meant, what was your (and your end users') opinion of the JavaScript--it's stability and so on.22:26
GaryPosterfilemanager for the server, I assume?22:26
projekt01Yeah, but I use another editor for customer projects22:26
GaryPostercommercial editor?22:26
projekt01I mean it's really good and I will improve and maintain the FCK editor22:26
projekt01Let me search for the URL22:27
faassenkupu kupu kupu! sorry. :)22:27
projekt01Oh, no, we tried to integrate Kupu at the Isar sprint, you can see it in the branch22:28
projekt01It's the best I saw for integration in z3, most other editor have some conceptual problems with relative and absolute path if you use a filemanager22:30
GaryPosterprojekt01: huh, cool.  I'll check it out.  Is that integration open source as well?22:31
projekt01I can send you the implementation if you like to try. I didn't put it on the open subversion repos because the innovastudio is commercial stuff. But really cheap 70 dollar for royalty free distro22:32
projekt01No, not open source, there is no download for the innovastudio editor22:32
srichterwow, it seems really cool22:33
srichterit has very end-user and advanced user features22:33
projekt01Yeah, the innovastudio is a really cool editor22:37
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